₦airaland Forum

[quote author=kay_pumpin link=topic=682102.msg8990269#msg8990269 date=1314121528]Were omo kekere ni omo yen.He even had a tiff with Piers on Sunday.He's very reckless and should be curbed.[/quote]I agree he needs to tone it down, but in this current state of things, we need some players like that who are just crazy about the club and show it everywhere most importantly on the pitch. Besides, Piers is a Arrow as well. Those players who have been in the club for long are just mad about the club and that is a good thing, it makes me understand now why all those Barca boys kept mouthing off about Cesc in the papers.

slimshay:
Meanwhile be patient ya'll, heard we have bid for a good midfielder. Dem still they count the money sha. 3,567,654. . .3,567,655. . .3,567,65. . . .e remain small. You say wetin? For where, they are not going to 25million. Its just 6million, they should finish by thursday morning :p

Is that why they are now called bean counters? 
but as much as some of us liked Cesc sha, the boy shortchanged us with his Barca DNA, if Nasri went for 25m with a year left on his contract, Cesc on the open market would have netted us nothing less than 50m with 4 years left on his contract. Curse your Barca DNA Cesc.

debosky:
Nearly 100 pages from June till August. . . .this is truly a prolific thread.

Love or hate Arsenal, we are always news material.  I'm sure some news agencies made millions from the Cesc saga alone.

@Coogar
Arsenal's appeal actually hinges on the fact that they sought clarification from UEFA officials on what exactly Arsene could do and followed it to the letter.

edoyad:
And by that inaction(by the board ofcourse), we're now not only at risk of missing out on this year's £25m UCL splash but next year's as well. Because as things stand at the moment 4th place this season(yes it's still august) is looking like a long shot to me.

Seriously Ed, who do you think wants that 25m more? you or the board who have their money tied into the club?

coogar:
uefa sucking up to arsenal again. . .

wenger will be on the bench tomorrow as he won his appeal for the stay of execution.
what's the brouhaha for in the first place when he could always appeal?

This is no sucking up, its a basic rule of law that if there are suitable grounds for an appeal a stay of execution is granted. UEFA governs the game and can always apply the punishment if the appeal fails.
We should rather be asking why the spineless English FA didn't have the balls to charge Fergie when he brought his 18th century phone to the stands while under a similar ban.

proudly9ja:
If we don't recruit between now and September 1, please chase me out of Arsenal if we finish in top 4 position.

Il galdly return to my first love - Enyimba of Aba

Oniro ni e, yu'll come running back once results improve.  
its not the best of periods for Arsenal but too much is being made of Arsenal's situation.
Arsene will sort it out, so far he always has and kept us in the top 4, if he fails at that this season, some serious explanation would be required.
At present, I have no need for one as I can evaluate the situation by myself.  

Still can't understand the intention behind it. If it was just for money, why beat the old man?  
I think there are many frustrated loonies running around this dear country of ours just looking to take out their frustration on others.

proudly9ja:
Ok o, I don accept. Il wait patiently. And nobody should come and tell us that the transfer market is not a casino.

I have low expectations for this season tbh. But only as low as 4th position. Anything lower than that for me will be asking AW and his Arsene FC fans to please leave the club.

Even I have lowered my expectation as well and I dare say Debo too. What we are not agreed upon is who (if anyone) is to blame for the current situation or if its just a difficult period to navigate again as we did with the stadium move.

As far as I know, there is only Arsenal FC having issues with the hotheads in the fanbase.   When Arsene FC is inaugurated please let me know. I won't be a fan but I'd like to buy shares there. And while you are planning to chase some of us fans out if we don't make top 4, should we also be planning to chase you out if we do? 

@Edoyad
Hazard might not have a UCL pedigree but he and Gervinho just took Lille back in there. It would be a shame if both came to Arsenal and then Lille went to the UCL but Arsenal didn't so I can understand his position.

proudly9ja:
Oh, so Bolton, an EPL side is chasing SWP? And we are chasing League1 and Japanese secondary school footballers? it is well.
Surely, you can't blame me for this. If Arsene regards someone who was playing for a secondary school in Japan just last season, a League 1 player and a player who didn't even feature more than 2ce for his League 2 side last season as QUALITY PLAYERS, surely you can't blame me for regarding SWP, a player who actually plays for a premier league side as quality enough for us?


As for Cesc and Nasri balancing the books, If they were not sold to balance the books, where are their replacements?

Chill proudly, the transfer window isn't closed yet is it? Coolu temper. All those players were bought with an eye on the future they are not Cesc and Nasri's replacements.

@Proudly

Seriously, it is totally wrong to say Cesc and Nasri were sold to balance the books. It is however fair to say that the club insisted on getting as much value as they could from their sales. That was the whole point in tying them to long term contracts in the first instance and if they didn't do so, I would be accusing them of gross incompetence as the same people now condemning Arsene did when he said he would allow Nasri wind down his contract rather than let him go.

Arsenal at present are financially comfortable, what makes things difficult is that city and chelsea have no books to balance and the advent of FFP actually has made this market a very difficult one as most clubs are having what would likely be their last splurge. It is quite likely that whatever squads and wages clubs go into at this point will set the tone for the FFP moderated future, its my opinion that the club wants to go into this period in as safe a position as possible.

edoyad:
ok, jungle never mature after a few league games, i accept.
But wait, dudu and debosky should help us understand  their twisted logic that's left me far lost than i've ever been.
You're both saying the club will sign players "after" we're guarantied a spot in this season's UCL.
My question is, why didn't we just get the calibre of players that would have ensured our qualification in first place ? Afterall we all knew Cesc and Nasri would be leaving.

It was never guaranteed that those two players will be leaving and you don't just flog your players off, there are negotiations particularly for players the manager always made clear he never wanted to lose. There are 3 parties to a negotiation, it doesn't depend on only one party.  Did you hear Fergie say they made an offer for Phil Jones in January which wasn't successful? The squad we have at present is quite capable of getting us through qualification.
A player like Hazard however would want qualification guaranteed before joining as it makes no sense him coming to Arsenal to play Europa when Lille is already in the UCL.

The problem with Arsenal fans is that every fan believes they are now experts in administration, management and coaching, people are now stating opinions as fact without any basis no thanks to the sky pundits who themselves have never managed a club or have come out of such with extremely poor managerial records. 

mukina2:
Debo and dudu shey una know if you were near most of the people posting in here una for don chop blows?

Nor be only blows, why don't we have a shootout to settle it sef and bring in the Taleban and Al Qaeda too?  

mukina2:
nor vex me oh , where did i  say i was not supporting the team. dont go arsene wenger on me, i'll just poke your eye

what exactly have you said different? bottomline is tell your uncle wenger to buy, tell him its 8 more days to get quality players simples

NB: tell him no more kids or heart attack buys tankyu  

On this thread, you are not. If you were on twitter you would be having a battle of words with Frimpong like Piers Morgan instead of encouraging the boy.  

Useless people, they can only come and flex muscles at the Emirates only to go to OT and play like pregnant yaks.

proudly9ja:
Chamberlain will prolly earn an average of 50000pounds over the next 2 years at Arsenal. An experienced player coming in would earn much more.
I don't know much about finances but I think that's the way Arsene and the board see it.
By the time Chamberlain and co start screaming for more money (and trophies) in 2013, we'l sell him off too and start all over again. To them, Arsenal is an opportunity for them to get first team football and showcase themselves to more serious sides.

That cycle can't continue, our financial situation is a lot better than it was in 08 when this last happened, we have since payed off debt running to about 140m. We have money to replace those leaving now. Once UCL group stage is guaranteed, players will come in. And the wage policy is good for the club as long as we don't have a benefactor. Maybe the people asking for Arsene's head should be asking Kroenke to sell the club instead if they want to see investment on the scale of Chelsea and City.

mukina2:
do we have to wait till he takes us to 9th position?
i'll go with point 1, let him bring in quality players, what is unfair is the fact that he speaks two different languages to us in the same breath. We keep on selling the stars in our team and we replace them with the usual youth project who will burn out before we get into the second half of the season?? or some old cargo like squills or that pig headed silvestre? methinks the boards need to give him an ultimatum, the fans aretired of excuses.
You've seen how empty the stadium has been, and to add to our woes we now have injuries and suspensions to worry about in the league, against united . this weekend . ,  . . . . . .  

wet puppy more like

You have no say in the matter, take Slim's advice and don't forget the first responsibility of a fan. Supporting the team.
In the interim, this boys should qualify for the group stages of the UCL and then let us get some players in. We need that UCL qualification to get quality players in.

dayokanu:
What did he use to sign Oxlade Chamberlain? Was it not money or where did he get the money from?

12 m Pounds potentially 15m GBP for a division 2 teenager.

The problem isnt the lack of money but rather the lack of common sense

And you were the one advising him before when he was winning trophies and buying quality players abi?  

debosky:
Can Arsenal feasibly pay wages in that bracket? Not without significant cutting down of lower paid players and a drastic recalibration of the overall wage structure. Ultimately, it will lead to a bigger wage bill in the range of Chelski/United. I am not confident the club can afford that without winning trophies, knowing full well that the expenditure will improve chances of winning but not provide any guarantees.

GBAM, true word.
or worse still, try it once and get drawn into the rat race without any benefactors to write off debts.

Now I finally know where my opinion diverges from Debosky's, I've always wondered why we argue atimes.

Your point of view is that we need to get more in line with what others are doing? how far in line is subject to a good understanding of what we actually have available to spend  which we unfortunately do not have full information about so you blame Arsene and the board (club leadership) for either not being transparent enough or not adequately utilizing the resources available unlike most other fans who basically just blame the manager without any critical examination of the prevailing issues whatsoever.

Where I diverge from this opinion is my assumption (sensible or otherwise in your opinion) that the club has already looked and is actively looking into this but have given up competing on that front because it just isn't currently sustainable (IMO) in the current player market therefore, therefore are either just holding on to see what FFP brings along in realising the youth project or allowing revenue flows as influenced by supporter sentiments to determine how and when to make any changes particularly in response to supporter apathy which may affect those revenue flows or whenever a top 4 finish which will reduce income is threatened.

Seriously Debo, does that accturately reflect where our opinions diverge or is there something else I've missed?

We will definitely both agree that a guaranteed top 4 finish has only come under threat due to the massive injection of funding into City further changing the competitive landscape along with the resurgence of Liverpool with considerable funding available after the successful mugging of Gillete and Hicks.  

My opinion is largely formed on the foundation of the present board not taking dividend from the club, if that was happening or starts happening, my opinion would be very different. I personally believe large debt or benefactor handouts are either unfair or unsustainable but it is not unfair for investors in a club to expect their investment to appreciate within reasonable limits.

It is also my opinion that the ownership as it exists right now would fire Arsene if it becomes necessary i.e, if they really believe the've found someone better or in a situation where the media stokes the fanbase enough to make Arsenal unmanageable for him and he cracks but I fail to see how that helps Arsenal in the long term. Worst possible scenario is we end up with a manager worse than Arsene who can't even make top 4 with similar funding and will keep moaning about lack of funds.

nateevs:
That said, it is not effective argument to try to create some sort of comparison between Shawcross at Stoke and Alex at 90k. My illustration was to highlight how Arsenal can pay wages in the 60 to 80k bracket and still get top quality.
You cannot argue that you will prefer Shawcross in place of Alex despite the gulf in wage earning.

You don't have much to do, just point out 1 such club in the PL paying such wages and competing in the top 4 yearly like Arsenal do. worthy and reasonable challenge and not so difficult? 

4llerbuntu:
and since the current trend is that all these over paid scallywags will jump ship immediately it seems they can be useful, isnt it time to start carefully reconsidering this useless policy and start mixing it up with solid buys of experienced nature? fergie clearly does this.

and he does not ship out players simply because they turn thirty,the useful ones that is

Mixing it up with the experience you ask for requires increased Wages, Manure's wages per annum have been consistently in the range of 20m higher (most likely higher now and that is currently about the size of our interest payment per annum) than Arsenals along with their transfer expenditure which is also higher, City and chelsea's in the region of 40m to 60m higher. If we have been paying those kinds of wages for the past 6 years, I think our debt would have increased and not reduced.

4llerbuntu:
how come duduspace always makes it sound like if arsenal just about spend 1 pound heaven will fall? na wetin?

i honestly doubt if u will make a good entrepreneur, well cos risk taking seems to be absent from your lexicon.

Are we talking about 1 pound now?  
did any of our direct competitors spend just 1 pound. It goes beyond just one signing there is a wage bill to think of as well as improving the contracts of the players you already have.

Debo and I have always thrown a simple challenge, show 1 club in the PL that has done better than Arsenal in the past 6 trophyless years without massively outspending Arsenal. All you get are cheeky responses like Birmingham and Tottenham.

Ibime:
70/80k for Mikel/Ramires is not peanuts, neither is 90k for Alex. There needs to be better price discrimination between quality of players. There is a reason why Chelseas wage bill is the highest and that's due to paying over the odds for mere squad players like Bosingwa who earns 80k and has done nothing to justify even half of that. To put this in context, Ryan Shawcross is Stokes highest paid player on 28k per week.

In addition, the reason Arsenal find it hard to shift their squad players is due to their high wages. Wenger pays a premium for potential. This is the reason why no serious offers have been made for Denilson and Bendtner in a situation where the likes of Denilson, Diaby and Bendtner earn 60k to 70k per week.

But surely Ibime you do recognize that those high end earners massively distort the market, there has to be a reasonable differential between the big earners and the small earners? I think the major problem is that what attracted those players to those clubs in the first instance was the promise of high wages. If we could pay the transfer fee for a player like Mata, can we seriously compete with Chelsea in terms of the wages we could offer him? 

It is partly true that we pay a premium for potential but I don't think that is misplaced because you run a massive risk of losing them if you don't tie them down to those contracts and Flamini was a very harsh lesson for the club, even Nasri was previously potential tied down to a contract but we run a real risk of losing him for nothing next year. Would he have signed such a long term contract in the first instance without adequate incentive initially?

The problem in football at present are those in football who are able to absorb these losses either in Benefactor handouts or massive debts, its like competing with someone who has a bottomless pocket and doesn't have to do any accounting for the attention of a babe. If you are not well endowed in other areas, yu've lost from the very beginning. 

nateevs:
Except you can point me to some knowledge base I haven't ever come across, I fail to accept that Nottingham Forest and Newcastle's demise from top flight was remotely caused by spending way over their means.

A quick look at Nottingham Forest's wiki page would enlighten you about them, and spending is relative and does not have to always end in administration, it could also involve being forced to sell your best players.

[Quote]Bassett was sacked in January 1999, with Ron Atkinson replacing him. Atkinson was unable to prevent Forest from once again slipping back into the Football League with a succession of poor results, most noticeably an 8–1 defeat by Manchester United. David Platt succeeded Atkinson and spent approximately £12 million on players, including the Italian veterans Moreno Mannini, Salvatore Matrecano and Gianluca Petrachi.[11] Platt managed two mid-table finishes before departing to manage England U-21s. Paul Hart became the Reds' new boss just two hours after the departure of Platt.[12] They finished 16th in his first season in charge. At this time the collapse of ITV Digital left many Football League clubs in severe financial difficulties, Forest included. Despite the off-field difficulties, Forest finished 2002&ndash03 in sixth place and qualified for the play-offs, where they lost to Sheffield United in the semi-finals.

A poor league run the following season, following the release of key players, led to the sacking of Hart in February 2004 in order to prevent relegation.[/quote]I have little to say about Newcastle, we are all living witnesses to it being hawked around with no one to buy it recently when in 1998 it a higher capacity stadium (by about 15,000) and was a bigger club than Arsenal in valuation when Arsene took over in 1998. If that is not mismanagment of funds and lack of prudency in spending all in the guise of ambition, then those terms need to be redefined.

Anyway, that answer was a direct response to the insinuation that Arsenal will cease being a big club because it is currently not buying big, as Newcastle showed (they bought Alan Shearer for a then world record fee of 15m) that you can buy big and still cease being a big club. If you have an alternative explanation as to what led to the relative demise of those 2 once big clubs, I'll be very much interested to hear them.

allboyz:
Well Funny words from AW - So at last he's got a hint that people 'feels' that he's stubborn - Lol

me im waiting sha ooo

That is the new tag from the media and they largely shape public opinion. The last person I know who got such treatment as Arsene has got from the English media in the past week (NoW scandal aside) was Gordon Brown. 

They were lining people up to take pot shots and twisting every interview to reinforce that opinion.
I'm thankful Arsenal is not a democracy, if there was an election Arsene would have lost even if no one else contested, you need to see that montage Debo mentioned on Saturday, it was enough to make a less resilient person resign in protest. 

allboyz:
i feel i just need to stop the Debate tho and Just do what i've been doing since - Keep supporting #AFC

Tnx Duduspace. . . Twaz Really a good with you here anyways. . . hope we qualify for UCL!!! ARSENAL deserve to be in the UCL
#COYG!!! #AFC !!
In Arsene i Solemnly Trust!!!

Still Gooners 1800

Thanks, but are you sure about that Arsene trust thingie?  
What I can't stomach is that the same people ruling out our chances of competing at the beginning of the season will start to grumble when we're still in competition with 6 weeks to go only for the squad depth to finally take its toll while we are trying to struggle through many competitions at the same time.

mukina2:
even if i give him 2 billion sef, he will still go look for kids, he should go work at world bank seriously his true calling's is at that place.

Give him first or better still go entice am, you know Arsene likes fine babes well-well and you can cry foul later like the Strauss-Khan maid and finally get him sacked as well.

allboyz:
1 - Personally like i always say - its an Opinion and i still strongly believe that AW should stay ofcourse i believe he's a good coach but he just needs to understand that things are no longer the way they use to be and make necessary adjustment to them

That is where we have a slight difference in opinion, it is not about Arsene changing, it is about the club leadership changing. Arsene has bought big in the past and has shown he will spend for quality if he sees quality, he is not silly to not understand that prices are dictated by demand and supply as he is also an economist.
Like Debo says, until we have clarity as to where the board's responsibility ends and where Arsene's begins I choose to lump them together and talk about the leadership of the club.

allboyz:
2 - Ofcourse clubs like Fulham,Blackburn and bolton are not expecting the same things arsenal does hence their fan base is quite limited to breeds from their locals and a little from the international scene. . .the primary aim of fulham is to qualify for Europa league spot while blackburn is to fight relegation battles can the same be said for Arsenal? ofcourse NO!! that's why fans of Blackburn celebrate once they pass the 41points mark!!!

Precisely why I've said that some adjustment in expectation is required on the side of fans, atimes you have to step back in order to move forward, no one has a divine entitlement to winning. At present, we are not Blackburn and Fulham neither are we Manure or City and there is nothing that stipulates we have to be one or the other. It is left to the individual to determine what is acceptable to them. At the end of the day, the board own the club and will call the shots.
People made so much noise at Newcastle against Ashley but they're gentle now.

allboyz:
Arsenal is a BIG club - So was NewCastle - Nottingham Forest - Leeds United and i guess we all know the end point!!!!!

its already showing now. . . even the "average players" don't jump into our offers anymore except kids. .and of course our african brother that call themselves football players!!! God dey sha  

i weep - afterall Jesus also wept!!!

Glad you mentioned them, the factors that brought those clubs down is exactly what Arsenal is avoiding right now. spending beyond your means. They didn't fail because players all of a sudden refused to go there, they failed because they lived beyond their means while they were succesful, when they fell on hard times success wise, they couldn't make up the shortfall in income. Mind you, none of those clubs even had massive capital expenditure like building a new stadium.

City has no success worth talking about but you can see the class of players that money has taken there.

mukina2:
Duduwenger how is the field not level now?
you and debo wont kill persin oh

Give Arsene 100m out of your piggy bank and lets see if we don't do a quadruple this season.

allboyz:
then logically it means that AW fails to win a trophy out of 40 possible ones in a span of 10yrs #Sad for a "world-class coach" under any condition favorable or Not!!!
Talking about the Board. . . i feel it pleases AW to continually supporting them "that is if there's an element of truth in them not willing to give more and pay wages of star players" and hence AW should take the blame too.

Or even perhaps the board are not sure that AW will win nada even when the Big players are signed?? NO?? all these and more i hope will be unveil to me soon coz i just want my club back!!! I have never celebrated a trophy with my Kid and he keeps supporting AFC while his mates make jest of him and even me the Dad!!! so sad!!!

You are assuming a lot of things that are yet to happen here. It is not yet 10 years, Arsene might walk before then or he might get sacked before 10 years. There is just so much any individual can take.
I don't think I need to say about the second paragraph, but 2 questions I will ask from the points you raise are.

1. If the board are not sure that AW will win nada even if big players are signed, why not replace him with someone they are sure will and then back such a person?    in addition to that Why the backing from the one man most people continue to ask to be brought back (David Dein)? mind you, if DD would ever come back one of his conditions would be that AW be retained, why the backing from the Oligarch (Usmanov) who wants to take over the club? perhaps these people are knowledgeable of things the average fan isn't or what do you think?

2. If all football fans think the way you think in respect of your son and the ribbing he gets from his friends, clubs like Fulham, Blackburn and Bolton should no longer have supporters or fans.   

My motto in life is exemplified in my siggy, expect the best but prepare for the worst.

allboyz:
LOOOOOL. . . . .then we stay a RECORD 10Yrs trophyless  

Because i agree that the likes of Wilshere,Frimpong Miyachi are top talents and will gel well. .  .but before this group will start playing in the final of any cup say The Carling for example then im quite sure it will take 3 solid seasons starting with this - im afraid if RvP won't be the captain of Feyenoord then and VermaLaen the Captain of Ajax as well!!! then we RE-BUILD again!!!  

To be honest, its not like that has never happened before in the past but whether it will happen again or is acceptable if allowed to happen remains to be seen it depends on what the board is willing to do in terms of funds or selling the soul of the club IMO, we have a manager who has won in the past when the playing field was level and who I still believe to be the right manager for the club, I won't panic because there is a possibility of us going trophyless for 10 years.

It might however be wise to start prioritising the cup competitions and it seems there is a tendency to start doing that since the past year.

allboyz:
Lemme ask you Dudu and Slim this - What's are your expectations for this season we rebuild ? depend on Chambalin miyachi Frimpong for another 3 yrs and we sell them again??

what are your expectation?

Unfortunately, YES, a rebuilding is required yet again. I don't expect this rebuilding to take another 3 years though for some reasons.
Firstly, the rate at which our academy and scouting is now producing top quality young players for the first team has improved, we got sizable amounts for the players that have departed and our financial situation is not as precarious as it once was, added to FFP putting some degree of control into spending I think the turnaround time shouldnt be as long.

As to Arsene's ban, all I can say is there must have been some problems in communication or someone is grandstanding if the club are claiming they asked for clarification on what Arsene could do prior to the match starting.

edoyad:
Imagine a mother returning from market and saying the price of food was so astronomically high that the family would have to survive on food they grow in the back yard from now on

Depends on the size of the backyard we're talking about, and I don't mean female backyards even though that could also highly relevant depending on the circumstances.