₦airaland Forum

^--- This isn't really light rail either, from what I can tell; it is just misnamed. More urban rail.

Slavery was working for free or very little money with NO ability to leave.

It is the latter aspect that made slavery evil, not the former. These workers have the option of quitting. Slaves do not.

That is the key difference.

Anyways, not really interested in discussing this much further. . . we can agree to disagree.

What does this have to do with slavery? 

Do you not know what a slave is?

Are I being enslaved if I'm a rice farmer and the price of rice plummets on the market?

Yes, capitalism sucks. That is why the best countries on earth are largely capitalist, and the worst ones are not. Just a coincidence

What were the #s? Can you share them for similar urban rail projects? I guess the metro in DC is comparable, for one. Just so we can get a ballpark # of what things should look like. I guess you'd have to include the year too so we can adjust for inflation.

@Sun of god: Like I said, personally I don't believe in minimum wage laws. Now, if Nigeria has one and Coca-Cola is violating it, feel free to prosecute them for it. But if they aren't breaking any laws, then I don't see what the problem is.

[quote author=Kilode?! link=topic=669633.msg8341461#msg8341461 date=1305670871]Ekt, I understand your argument, but remember, laying off hundreds of striking workers no matter how low-skilled they are comes at a cost, you'll have to hire new ones, build trust and give them some time to settle in, it will affect the bottom-line.

Anyway, I suspect we have ideological differences on this issue, so I will let it rest for now.[/quote]Indeed. I'm mostly a free market capitalist sort of guy. . . I dislike price controls, minimum wages, things like that. I think they cause more harm than good (the death of Detroit and the manufacturing industry in the US being a pretty good example.)

Anyway, I guess you are much further to the left (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

^-- You cannot seize people's property w/o compensation, though. You have to compensate. Unless it is communal propery, which the land use act vests in the state government.

So you think $10 million/mile is a more reasonable figure? Can you reference any other similar projects done for that price?

It is funny, I've been looking at traditional rail a bit for another context with a friend of mine. It has been kind of a hassle to get good estimates of how much these things should cost.

Sun of god:
I think it would be fair to say that wages should be linked to:

Profitability - The more the company earns, the more they pay the employees
Inflation - Price of goods and services rise, then so should wages
Living costs - Wages to refelect local living costs?

None of those things are relevant. Wage should be whatever the market demands. If I can find a guy to do your job for less money then you are asking, then who cares about any of the above factors?

I remember a couple years ago when I had to hire someone to design a website. Some guy wanted to charge me $75/hour for his labor. So it'd have cost me 2-3K. I asked him to justify the price. . . he gave me a bunch of reasons. Many of which I'm sure are good.

So what did I end up doing? I found two guys in Poland to do the job. I paid both of them combined $1K, saving an enormous amount of money and actually getting a better product than what the first guy wanted to sell me.

That is the way things should work. Let everyone compete. Workers compete against each other (thus driving down labor costs), employers compete against each other (thus driving UP labor costs.)

@Kilode: Nobody is pointing a gun at their head to continue working there! Unlike the days of slavery and indentured servitude, everyone has a CHOICE. If you don't like the pay and can find better elsewhere, then quit.

But the truth of the matter is that they won't quit. Because the job they are at is still better than anything else they are likely to find. And for everyone who quits, there will be 1000 Nigerians looking to take their job.

Look, a relative of mine is in the same situation. She doesn't like her job, feels she is underpaid, has been interviewing around at other places, but they all pay about the same salary.

It is what it is.

Hrm, I'm getting inconsistent prices.

An integrated 25 year financial model was used for estimating the project cash flows and returns for the Blue and Red Lines. The LASG will finance the $1.2bn capital cost of infrastructure for the two lines. Provisions have been made within the State’s annual budgets (2008-2011) for funding the rail infrastructure for both priority lines and the State will also float rail infrastructure bonds on the capital markets. The conservative estimate of returns to the concessionaires is 20% over the 25 year period.

http://www.tundefashola.com/archives/news/2008/11/18/20081118N01A.html

According to the Lagos Rail Mass Transit's website, the construction of the stations and infrastructure, for both lines, will be funded by the state of Lagos. The total estimated cost of the entire project is NGN170bn (US$1.13bn). The Red Line that will run along a north-south axis from Agbado to Marina, is still pending the approval of the Federal government. These are the first two of a total of seven lines the government wants to build by 2015.

http://store.businessmonitor.com/article/322508

In the end, says Folayan, the line will run in the middle of a transport corridor, which will also accommodate the BRT lines, and an expanded freeway.

The cost to the Lagos government to develop the project is more than $1-billion, notes Folayan, with the concessionaire to spend an additional (initial) $300-million.

The concessionaire will not receive any operating subsidy from the government, he adds.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/chinese-company-to-build-1-billion-plus-lagos-rail-line-2010-06-01

I'm not sure if it is $1 billionish for both, or $3 billionish for both as I've read elsewhere.

I guess the $1.2 billion for both from Fashola's size is the most trustworthy #.

Kilode, it isn't the human being I'm comparing to the commodity. It is their LABOR. Labor is what they are selling. Their time, their effort.

If I am farming, I am converting my LABOR into RICE, am I not? And that rice eventually into CASH, yes?

If you are working, you are converting your labor directly into cash.

Of course it does. It isn't as if Coca-Cola is employing skilled labor. Unskilled labor in general doesn't command much salary.

If I use your unskilled labor to build a high-end luxury hotel that generates tons of revenue, the amount I should pay you should be different than if I used the same quantity of labor to build something unprofitable?

That makes no sense. . . X units of unskilled labor costs whatever it costs. Price shouldn't be dependent on how creative I am in turning that labor into profit.

manny4life:
Wait a second, you mean $1.5 billion for just for the red and blue line? The red line has a distance of 30km and blue line has 27km. That's a total distance of 57km; 1km = 0.6213miles, so for 57km (35.41 miles). For $1.5billion for 35.41 miles, that is $42,356,011 per mile. $42million per miles is really expensive for a country like Nigeria but hey I can only talk what I can.

The price I quoted might be a bit high. . . I actually don't remember ever seeing a very specific #. Perhaps you can Google and find something more specific.

BTW, are you sure that that is expensive? It isn't rail in the bush, it is in a major urban area. So it makes sense that costs will be higher.

EDIT: Prices here: http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/lagosrailmasstransit/. 1.4 billion for red, 1.2 billion for blue. I wish I had #s officially from the Lagos gov't though

yeswecan:
There has to be a balance - pay have to reflect the level of profit. That's just the way it is. That's why oil companies pay  so well in Nigeria.

No, it does not. Pay should reflect whatever the market price is. If my profit goes up, but the market price for your labor hasn't gone up, I'm under no obligation to pay you more. Put it this way. . . if my profit goes DOWN, but the market price for your labor hasn't gone down, then should I also pay you less?
Of course not; if I tried that you'd just quit and work somewhere else where you'd be paid your market price.

The market price of your labor is to some extent independent of how much profit the company makes using your labor.

How can you say trade unions are fine when you have already declared that it is peoples choice to take jobs no matter how dire the condition is - why trade unions then ?

People can organize and unionize if they want. I have no problems with that. If I want higher pay and I convince my co-workers to all unionize and strike, then that is perfectly acceptable as a strategy. Of course, the company in question is also free then to utilize tools available to it to protect itself.

OK.

I am a rice farmer. Every month I produce a unit of rice.

I search around looking for who wants to buy.

One guy offers me N1000, another N1100, another N2000.

So once a month for two years I sell to the guy for N2000. Now, eventually over time I don't like this price. I want to sell the crop for more than N2000.

The guy refuses to raise the buying price. Now, if I search around and find someone else willing to meet my new price of say N2500, then fine, I simply stop selling to him.

But if I cannot find anyone willing to pay more, then I'm in no position to b1tch about the price he is offering, am I? And I'm certainly in no position to demand more, or guilt-trip/force him into paying more, right?

Why is he obliged to pay me more money for the crop I'm selling than what others are willing to pay?

Minimum wages have never made sense to me. If you don't like the salary at your job and think you deserve more money but they are unwilling to pay it, then it should be easy for you to quit and find a higher-paying job. And if you are NOT able to do so, then it should tell you you aren't underpaid at all.

I've always been anti minimum wage. It makes no sense to me.

Trade unions are fine. Organize and strike if you want. But if the company then decides to let the strikers/unionists go and replaces them, then that is fine too.

yeswecan:
if people are willing to take 2k a month - which i am sure folks in Nigeria will be ready to take - then lets go for it. . .

What is wrong with that? No one will accept a wage worse than they can get elsewhere, right? So if I offer someone X/day as a salary, I'm beating whatever other offers they have.

And so if I'm beating the other options they have, then why are they b1tching? If you don't like my offer, then reject it and go work somewhere else.

Wtf. Nobody is pointing a gun at anyone's head to work there. They were told how much they'd be paid before they got hired, right? They agreed to the salary structure, right?

So what is all the b1tching about?

If they feel that they can earn a higher salary elsewhere, then they should quit. Simple as that.

It is a free market. . . everyone gets to sell their labor for as much as they can, and people try to buy labor for as cheaply as they can.

Labor is just like any other thing being sold/bought.

I don't believe this N400/day thing. It is probably base daily salary, and maybe they get some sort of production bonus on top.

Nobody will work in Nigeria, in Lagos for N400/day. You can make more money hustling on the street.

How much should the be paid? $2.60 day sounds low, one can probably make more than that hustling on the street

I also dislike the slave analogy. If you don't like your job and salary, feel free to quit. It isn't as if someone is holding a gun to your head to make you stay

Hercules07: How are these major companies connecting to the net? Wireless, or something else?

What of universities?

by Jacqueline Adams, Africa.com Chief External Relations Officer and Executive Editor
This May has been a pretty good month for Babatunde Fashola. Fresh from his re-election as executive governor of Lagos State, Nigeria’s business capital, Fashola won high praise in a profile in The Economist; he then traveled to Washington, D.C. for a series of high-level meetings with America business and government officials.

A small group of Afropolitans was invited to meet the executive governor at a private luncheon at the Army and Navy Club, courtesy of Constituency for Africa, a 21-year old organization dedicated to building support for the African continent. The co-sponsor was Accession International, a firm that specializes in business development in sub-Saharan Africa, with a focus on the Gulf of Guinea.

In her introduction, former U.S. ambassador to Nigeria, Robin Sanders, congratulated Fashola on his overwhelming victory, winning 82 percent of the vote in a state with at least 18 million people.

That victory was the centerpiece of Fashola’s remarks. He told the group that last month’s relatively peaceful and honest elections in Nigeria were critically important. “The Nigerian electorate has demonstrated how politically aware it is. The people wanted an election that was credible and we achieved it.”

Fashola sees his popularity as a mandate to continue addressing the “problems of law and order, the environment, education, health care, infrastructure, security—the same issues as any big city.”

Visitors to Lagos are typically overwhelmed by the gridlock and fast-pace. Historically a trading post, Fashola said Lagos has the capacity “to be the locomotive driving the train of economic development” in Nigeria as well as the whole of west Africa. There are limitless opportunities,” Fashola said. “My goal is to restore Lagos back to her preeminence and to be a leading light for best practices on the African continent. Nothing will be impossible in our state.”

In his first term, Fashola has reduced street crime and made some improvements in traffic congestion. Term limits have dictated that his new term will be his final four years as executive governor, but his agenda is robust. “Transportation will determine the quality of life in Lagos,” Fashola said and it tops his list of priorities. He plans improvements of the roads, railroad, and water taxi infrastructures. His other priorities include water and sewage management, education, and innovation, as well as housing.

http://www.africa.com/blog/blog,a_man_to_watch_babatunde_fasholaexecutive_governor_of_lagos_state,289.html

I don't see why a northerner should ever rule in this country for the next few years, to be quite honest.

Don't they need to put their own house in order first? Their region is doing really, really, really poorly.

It isn't as if they are the most qualified, at this point in time.

Guys like Fashola and Amaechi should be the guys running for president, not most of these northerners.

From my understanding, to construct each of the Red and Blue lines costs roughly $1.5 billion or so. Lagos State seems to be the one bearing the costs of this.

Then the concessionaires are responsible for buying the rolling stock (i.e., the railcars) and several other things and maintaining over a 25 year period. So these cars being inspected in Toronto, I guess the concessionaire will buy?

I'm not quite sure how Lagos is financing the construction. Their contractor is CCECC, but I never heard about them borrowing money for the project. . . yet I'd also be surprised if they are just paying for it straight up out of revenue.

@manny4life: Just google lagos rail, first link is a govt site with lots of info.

shameless desperado (or desperada in this case, i guess)

So is this N16k unlimited broadband or something. . . ? If not, then sounds like an insane price to me.

My neighbor and I share internet access for N7500/month (I pay half.)

Looks like they are fixing it now.

^-- Hrm, I get weird music playing and the following in my browser:

https://i53.tinypic.com/29e6b6e.png

Doesn't seem like any planned maintenance to me.

This Sanusi guy. . .

Eh, I think I've done my part by bringing attention to it. . . I don't really feel like buying a calling card and sorting the rest out.

Information for that site's host here:

http://www.quanteq.com/index.php?sfish=16&fin=1

Perhaps someone who is in Nigeria can give them a call and let them know what is up.