₦airaland Forum

patrickmuf:
Opta on the beats...

I dont underatand. Do you imply I am wrong?

Those matches, he was one of the front three just like today. The normal three of Mane, Firminho, Salah did not play at all in some of the matches or one/two of them only featured.

patrickmuf:
Chamberlain can play from the wings but he is best as a central midfielder. That you saw him on the wings today doesn't change the fact that he is mostly deployed as a midfielder.

I just listed that his goals this season have been from when he played in the wing, except when they played Genk away when he started from midfield.

Chrisus:
Liverpool's youth team just beat Everton's first team

4 or 5 senior players participated

If Chamberlian scored now, someone would now come to use his wing stats to say he plays in midfield. Samething that happened when he scored one goal vs Bournemouth, one against Genk away.

Origi Assist Jones' goal. This time he appeared to have learnt from his mistake

Senior players have a way of underrating junior players. Origi should have just push the ball to Curtis Jones to set him for a shot, instead he prefer attempting dribbling to open a shooting space for himself.

Na Australia Afrodoc dey na? I think say na UK he dey.

ChristineC:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1213539198764036101

both Rashford and Pereira had the chance to send Williams through but no vision.
the presence of mind to make that run in the 80+mins is telling. it wouldn't be awful if Shaw sits out the first 11 though, getting dragged by Pepe is simply preposterous.

scroll down the comments and see a clip of Luke Shaw.
oh god

They do these things to one another every match. On this occasion I think Rashford under rated William so he decided to play towards Pereira. Pereira was trying to find Willain but made a poor pass which enabled Rashford and a defender to had the chance of getting to it.

codedguy1:
Which contest context?

Were united players and their creativity not brought up in the arguement?

I only reacted to a statement you made about using a system that needed creative players and you were referring to united in that statement.

I don leave you to your contest

Your reaction was out of point that is why your argument doesn't follow. So if I hear you arguing with someone with words 'sex' and 'sister' in the talk, I should just imagine you are arguing that having incest is right? Talking about 'United player' and 'creativity' didn't mean we were talking about which player has the required creativity or competence to play number 10.

E no join.

codedguy1:
Were you guys not talking about creativity? A player should play in the position where he is most competent. It thens means a creative player should be deployed where he can create, this is made possible with how the coach sets up his team.

If we then have no creative player he should at least find a suitable formation for the team but Ole keeps using formations that will need very good creative player which we don't really have.

Peeps have argues that Liverpool's midfield ain't really creative, that the creativity comes from the3 upfront and FBs Robertson and TAA.

Meanwhile we don't even know if Ole has idenfied if the team even lacks creativity, not yo talk about finding solutions.

We were talking about creativity in another context, not creativity of United players fitting into positions. Go back to read. We were basicslly talking about our midfielders and Liverpool midfielders which are more creative. The second one is which department should creativity come from.

We were not talking about how fitting are our players to position (the number 10). That is something you brought and still derailing the lines of argument till now.

Let me know if you want to start a new topic/lines of debate please.

See Dalot

We just dash dem the ball

codedguy1:
I don't understand! I thought your competence should mostly determine your position on the field. This will also show in your positioning on the field when the player moves around.

Why not try to understand what we were arguing about before you jumped in? We were not arguing who is qualified to play where. It is you who is starting a new line of arguement.

codedguy1:
I am talking of this season.
.

Pogba played 90 mins in all our matches in all six matches below up to Arsenal. He was woeful. He led the team to lost at to Palace and drew Rochdale at Old Trafford

codedguy1:
q

So either way we are fvcked. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Well do we have players for 3-5-2 or 4-4-2?

Yet it doesn't look like we are adding this Jan? I hope I am wrong though.

I dont understand this part.

larride:
The attacking play is mediocre to put it mildly.

The young players tend to reverse or pass back when already played into ppaitions they should be causing harvoc to the opponents defence. Playing like LVG era. Possession over adventure

codedguy1:
The reason I asked you that question was because you were talking as if we have creative players that should play as no 10 in a 4-2-3-1 formation that we mostly deploy.
.

The argument was based on actual position of players and not who is compentent to play where (no. 10)

codedguy1:
Now you answer my question that they aint good enough (/I don't know if Pogba is among the ain't good enough, but he has not been playing so he can be excused)

He played the most games last season.

codedguy1:
Now if we here on nairaland can see that we don't have a supposedly creative no 10, why does Ole not revert to a 4-3-3?

This is why I say Ole no am. When he wins I will rejoice but I think the job is too big for him.

Anyways we dey hia.

We dont have the complete players to play three midfielders. We have had only McTominay and Fred.

codedguy1:
Who is that No 10 in united that we expect yo create?

They are not good enough and if Pogba and Tominay are fit, we can play 4-3-3 instead

McTominay-Fred-Pogba

We can still use Matic if Pogba is absent. But Pogba and Matic together might not be good due to little sprint time and low distance coved sprinting and running.

Guys seems not to understand what is called primary responsibilities. It doesnt mean that reaponaibilities dont overlap.

Also, it is not only 'succesful teams' who have non forward players as creative players. All teams do have players from all positions heavily creating, even bottom table teams.

So it is not something perculiar to succesful teams. Every team big or small would always free up an attacking minded deep player.

eph12:
Which successful team depended on only the attackers to create chances and score goals, especially in the last decade or so?

You seem not to pay attention to what you read before you reply

patrickmuf:
Elampiro, I am certain from your comments you don't watch a whole lot of games, you depend mostly on reviews and stat sites to form an opinion. Henderson is more creative than Fred, there's no comparison here. Wijnaldum is more dangerous around the box than all our CM bar Pogba...Only Pogba can walk into that Liverpool midfield and only because of his individual quality but then, his work rate will fail him if he does not improve.

On creativity, I see you talking about front 4, before now, you used to say front 3 until you managed to convince yourself that an AMF is an attacker. I need not explain that an AMF is different from a SS which is the role Tevez and Rooney played to perfection. The job of an AMF is to get the ball from midfield and either drive into the opposition half using speed and technique or use his passing skills to locate an attacking player.

No elite team depends only on their strikers (front 3 or 4 as you wish). Bayern has Lewandowski, Gnabry, Coman, Alaba, Kimmich, Coutinho.

Barcelona has Messi, Suarez, Griezemann, Alba and Semedo.

Manchester City has Aguero, De Bruyne, Sterling, Mendy, Mahrez and Bernardo Silva

Real Madrid have Benzema, Hazard, Bale, Marcelo, Carvajal.

Juventus have Ronaldo, Higuain, Dybala, Alex Sandro, the passing skills of Bonucci at the back etc.

Liverpool have Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson, TAA plus added creativity from deep (Van Dijk and Henderson).

Every top team is set up to have at least 5 players in attacking position when they go forward coupled with midfielders who have got the passing range should they decide to go long but you're here arguing otherwise. How you want the strikers to do it all when the AMF is trash and their fullbacks don't bump forward to draw defenders away from them is beyond me.

In the past I have asked you to study videos of Messi getting past players wherein you'll see the importance of the runs the likes of Suarez, Alba, Rakitic, Semedo and the rest make. One run behind or across a defender is enough to destabilize a whole defense just like the run Kolasinac made that saw our defensive shape all over the place.

I dont look at stats. I only look at stats when argument is getting long and sometimea want to know who might be right or wrong. But again stats are the most credible judgement not your subjective views based on the way you underatand football

Hendenson is not as creative as Fred, he only plays with more quality forwarda. Yet Fred still beats him on stats. Do you know many through balls Fred has passed and got missed from poor attempt?

Central Attacking midfielder 10 is a forward player. It is not debatable. When Rooney played 10 behind RVP why did we all agree he was a forward player? None of us ever considered him a midfielder. You were here when Coogar and I had years of arguments. These poaitions are settled you cannot change them. Cetral attacking midfeilder plays behind the striker and between the two wingers. He is meant to be the primary supplier.

Who has said elite teams depends only on strikers. No team does. Also no team or elite team depends on only defenders to defend the box. But we know whose jobs it is to defend primarily

Every top team and low teams set several men in attacking position when they attack and even more men in defenaive poaition when they defend. But we are talking of primary reaponsibilities. It is not like we are saying players should be statues.

airmark:
Stats that inform you the number of times Fred lost possessions? Fred that only started playing well in the last 3 or 4 games?

Whoscored stats has over 200 indices for measuring performance. United midfielders rated higher than Liverpool midfielders.

weedtaker:
but our starting fullbacks aren't known for their attacking ability or quality.

This is what they fail to understand. When some guys see Man City having their midfielders as best creators, they descend on our midfield. If they see Liverpool having the full backs as key creators they expect ours to play that way. When City had Silva as the creator, everyone expected Rooney or Mata whoever plays 10 to be the creator in United. If Chelsea has their DM as the creator, our DM must also create. If tomorrow Leicester has their goalkeeper as the creator, DDG must also create.

Everything has players with different skills, they have to been harnessed and not forced out overnight what players don't have.

eph12:
Which successful team depends on only the attackers to create chances and score goals?

We are talking about the main people who create. We have four in front including the number 10 whose primary responsibility in 4-2-3-1 is to create..

Liverpool has three in front freeing one middle man to support defence. Our midfielders and defnders don't have that luxury of extra coverage

airmark:
How?

Fred will sit for a fit Keita anyday, anywhere.

So says the stats. Keita has not played ,much to get a reasonable assessment.

eph12:
In LFC, they have the fb as part of the creative outlets. In United, aside the attackers, who are the creative outlets? The midfielders or fullbacks? Cc elampiro

Every team is set up differently according to the player's abilities. Apart from Arnold, Liverpool's creativity comes from the front men. United is created to get its own from the front four with the highest responsibility on the number 10. The attackers are primarily suppose to create for themselves since they have a number 10 which make them four in front. Others can contribute.

airmark:
Yes, nobody forced your team to use two players in the midfield.

What we are talking about here is 'midfield' as an entity. How United's 2-man midfield is more creative than Liverpool's 3, is what i expected you to prove. You can't ask Liverpool to drop one midfielder, because you are using 2. It's United's midfield vs Liverpool's midfield.

We are talking about individual creativity. Simple. Fred is the most creative in the combined team for players having reasonable amount of playing time.

airmark:


Dayo will like you. So we shouldn't add their outputs to get concerted one, we must conclude that United have superior 'midfield' creativity, because of McTominay's good output.

Have you settled with afrodoc2, regarding Lingard's position?

You wanted to sum up 3 vs 2?

We play two midfielders. Lingard/Pereira are not CMs

Fred is the most creative in both teams because Pogba and Keita have not played enough games to get a good sample.

airmark:
So, what's your conclusion based on data above? Should i help you do the additions for 3 midfielders for each team?

United play two midfield players. You may want to do chances created by minutes for two players. Not just addition.

But we alreay saw their overall whoscored rating

Lana1:
Lingard is our attacking midfielder.
He's part of the front 4.

Anyways, i agree with you, and many people have argued it here before that the rest of the team has to contribute more in terms of goals and the build-up to a goal. Leaving goal scoring to our attackers alone makes no sense. That's why when Rashford or Martial dont turn up, we will probably lose. I cant even remember when last we scored from a corner or a set piece.

Rashford scored one recently from a very good Bassaka's cross.

Martial was not so clear, if it were Rashford or James in same position, we could have counted on their speed to out pace the defenders

Lana1:
Another scenario would be for Lingard to run towards the CB to draw him out so that James could have a free run on goal. Either way this attack should have ended in a goal but Lingard is just not intelligent. Very dull!

Exactly my observation from day one.

However, Martial ran towards James whicj helped the defenders.

chrisley024:
Thanks for this pic.

@elampiro, this is what I was telling you about on Wednesday that Lingard doesn't need to run with the ball. Just lay the pass to Martial. Just look at that huge space for Martial


But when one knows only to run like a headless-chicken

Is it posaible to see the video again?

patrickmuf:
In our last match against Arsenal, Lingard had an opportunity to play Martial through on goal but he choose to pass instead to James and the pass was even behind him. Is that the strikers fault? Kolasinac created the first goal, Sokratis scored the second. Defenders contributing to the attack. Our supporting cast is as bad as they come.

Lingard is onw of the forward. Lingard, Martial, Rashford, James are our attacking players.

Put our midfield Pogba, Fred and McTominay behind Salah, Mane and our midfield will shine. Pogba's 9 assists will increase