₦airaland Forum

@Joagbaje

In reply to This Your Post, all I can say is that I pray that one day you will come to a true understanding and full appreciation of those passages; to realise that they deal with heavenly, spiritual blessings and not material prosperity. Only God Himself can deliver you from this sad sad error --- granted He might use human beings.


Also, you said:

I am not adding to scriptures, Paul was an apostle ,He started churches  but was not directly pastoring them. he had pastors that were ministers in these churches.They take tithes and offerings in these churches but Paul himself was not directly involeved with the day to day running of these Churches .

You are indeed adding to scriptures --- and the Bible warned against that! Otherwise WHERE in the Bible does it say that any "pastors" or indeed anybody else took tithes whether in "these churches" or elsewhere??

Below was posted by kunleoshob

@Joeagbaje

Not that it would make any difference to your lost soul but i would still post the scripture below maybe it would still prick something in you.

James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

You replied:

The church primary call is to make disciples. James was not a  standard for the church. he was a religious man. mixing christianity with judaism.

Now you say:

James only became converted towards the end the ministry of Jesus. He was a baby christian, He trouble the ministry of Pauld because of his lack of full gospel knowledge.

Questions:

1. When James wrote James 1:27, was he a Christian or not?

2. If James was a Christian when he wrote James 1:27, then why do you and your "church" not follow what he said and why does your church's doctrine differ from James'?


Unless, as I said before, perhaps you are not following Christianity but a different and a false "gospel" instead?

KunleOshob:
Dis agbaje man makes mesick ith the way he willfully twists scripture just for the sake of greed!!!  

I have tried to be gentle with him but I am sorry to say that he is really beginning to annoy me now.   

@Joagbaje

That is the truth; I have been busy but I will deal with some of your posts in the other thread later; but really really really ---- I am sorry to say that the fraudulent pastors have soooo brainwashed you that you cannot see your own blindness and you dared to say that James the brother of Jesus who walked with Jesus for years, who heard Jesus' teaching first-hand, who was one of those whom Jesus Himself charged with the responsibility of founding the church was "a religious man" who does not know what you and your criminal and fraudulent "pastors" know --- "as he was not a standard for the church"!!!


How dare you --- how very dare you?   

That statement more than anything will tell you, if and when by God's grace you come back to your senses, that what you have been brainwashed into believing is not Christianity but another gospel!!!

Edited.

Joagbaje:
Sowing and reaping is a spiritual law.Either you give to the poor or to God Or to a pastor.
But you dont give your tithes to poor people you give alms to the poor.You give your tithe in your church where you recieve the word of God.

There is no reason for any man to be poor again. Jesus has paid the price. If a man attend a good church where they belive in prosperity, and listen to the teaching of god's word there , he will come out of poverty, especially when he starts giving.

Joagbaje

We recognise that you are deceived and have been completely fooled  and brainwashed by fraudulent pastors. BUT we beg you in God's name to please stop misleading people!!! The Bible clearly states to give tithes to the poor for goodness' sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Deuteronomy 14:28-29

"At the end of [every] third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store [it] up within your gates.
And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who [are] within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Deuteronomy 26:12

"When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

EDIT:

Which of your criminal and fraudulent pastors has ever asked you to give your tithes to the poor --- even if only in the "third year"?

Joagbaje:
Except if i miss the question by the reason of attending to so many childish post at one time.

When you have time please deal with these earlier posts of mine:

Post No 1112

and

Post No 1133

Joagbaje:
Paul was not a Pastor over a local Church . He would not recieve tithes from them. People give tithes in the local assembly where they recieve the word of God. They had pastors in these local churches that recieves the tithes , The local churches send money and gifts to Paul.

You are now adding to Scripture

KunleOshob:
christianity [the faith and belief system] started on the day of pentecost. But it was in Antioch that the term "christians" was coined. Prior to that christians were simply called believers.

Of course; to say otherwise is to say a child was born on the 8th day because that is when he was named.

Joagbaje:
The scripture
kleros,  klay'-ros; probably from Greek 2806 (klao) (through the idea of using bits of wood, etc., for the purpose); a die (for drawing chances); by implication a portion (as if so secured); by extension an acquisition (especially a patrimony, figurative) :- heritage, inheritance.

The word means "inheritance", yes; but inheritance of what? That is where you miss the point! The passage refers to spiritual inheritance i.e. inheritance of the kingdom of God! Not inheritance of earthly material things!!!!

Joagbaje:
This has no relevance to Your anti wealth campaign.

Now now behave and stop being silly!

Joagbaje:
It was talking about the hope of resurrection. In other words  saying. If all about christianity is the enjoyment on earth without the hope of resurrection ,we are miserable. The emphasis is the hope that we shall rise again.

At least you have some  idea of the meaning of that passage although you and one of your supporters still misunderstand my reason for suggesting that you meditate on the passage. Reading the passage alone carefully and with decent comprehension should have more readily revealed that I was simply trying to warn you against missing the point of being a Christian; in other words, that it is a poor and miserable Christian whose focus is on material things rather than the hope of glory that is the true reward and inheritance of the Christian.

Joagbaje:
I know you are thinking it butress your  idea of prosperity in heaven. There is no prosperity in heaven for you, what you can recive in heaven is crown of rulership for the new world and the praise of God.

Instead of trying to "argue" how wrong you are here, I will recommend the following passages of scripture for you to study, "meditate" upon and compare with your statement:

1. In Ephesians 1:18 Paul prays for

the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints

2. 1 Cor 2:9

But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

3. I am using NLT deliberately for this one because it is most graphic of the point here: Luke 16:11

And if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven?

4. Ask yourself where was Jesus rich and where was he poor? 2 Cor 8:9

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Joagbaje:
It is here you can enjoy all things.

This misunderstanding of yours is the reason why I suggested that you meditate on that passage from 1 Cor 15:19 (NLT)

[Quote]
And if we have hope in Christ only for this life, we are the most miserable people in the world.[/quote]If you truly and fully understand this passage you will realise how wrong you are; you are focusing on "here" i.e. this life, whereas the gospel charges you to focus on the kingdom of heaven! Doing that (what you are doing) is what that passage describes as "miserable"! It is indeed very very very pitiful.

Here is another passage for you to study and "meditate" upon: Colossians 3: 1-2

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

Joagbaje:
I am blessed to bless others.but God is not against my enjoyment at all

I am pleased that you are blessed and blessed to bless others. Indeed God is not against your enjoyment.

@Joagbaje

I am putting up a passage for you to compare with the one you cited:

Matthew 25:34-36

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me

On a related note, I wonder if you are familiar with Bible Commentaries because I think you can benefit from commentaries with regard to getting a proper understanding of the Bible ---- even granted that commentaries too do have their own shortcomings.

tonye-t

When grown ups are talking, small boys should be circumspect.

@joagbaje

I repeat that it is such a pity that you just repeat wrong interpretations that the fraudulent "prosperity gospel" preachers use to deceive people. Unfortunately, you have been conditioned (oK I'll avoid 'brainwashed') to see Bible passages that have glorious spiritual importance in terms of the base, useless and frankly, quite pathetic, quest for "prosperity"

I take one example from your last post:

Joagbaje:
Acts 26:18
   To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

You only see "inheritance" there in terms of "prosperity" because you have been conditioned by the prosperity pastors to think in this unfortunate way; "inheritance" there refers to something far far far more glorious than earthly material prosperity. It really is pitiful that you think this way and very very very sad to see.

Let me give you one passage to "meditate" upon:

1 Cor 15:19 (NLT)

And if we have hope in Christ only for this life, we are the most miserable people in the world.

Oh, and by the way, any pastor who asks you to bring "first fruits" to him is a thief whose god is his belly; and you will be a mug if you too give him your "first fruit".

[quote author=DGI-PLUS link=topic=383412.msg5346530#msg5346530 date=1263900942]I believe that life is by choice, you can still choose to give your first fruit to God (Apstl Paul taught that those who don't do somethings should not condemn those who do). Since you can't see God, you do it thru your own trusted Pastors. All firstfruits belong to God (Including your first son, he must serve God). Thank you.[/quote]The bolded part of the quote is not necessarily true and it is one of the reasons why our people are easily fooled by all these 419 pastors; in fact it can often lead to doing the opposite of what Jesus and the apostles taught e.g.:

(a) Matthew 25:38-40

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

(b) James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Instead of doing the things taught by Jesus and the apostles, our people prefer to follow superstition thinking it will help them to get "prosperity" when all that tends to happen is that they themselves end up being defrauded by 419 pastors.

chukwudiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii    

aletheia is "making fun" of those who do not pay attention to church history before Azusa/1906!!!!

You didn't notice this heading:

14 ways to become a charis-maniac "Christian"

I initially chose not to respond to the posts on prosperity as I felt it was a deviation from the issue here, which is new testamental tithing. But I guess I will add my thoughts as well.

Actually, you are right Zikky. It is just that the issue of "tithing" and the "prosperity gospel" are linked in this way: the prosperity gospel fraudsters use the lure of potential prosperity to hook the victims in; they then say that a critical element in attaining this "prosperity" is through "tithing" whereas their real intent is to become rich on the back of the "tithes" "paid" by the victims.

Interestingly, I have only now just read this thread from the beginning (I hadn't done that before) and I see that you made a similar point to what I just said above back in October 09 or so.

More widely, reading the earlier debates opened my eyes to some interesting things that I hadn't realised --- mainly about some posters (but that is for another time).

Finally, I want to use the example of debosky to demonstrate one of the things that we who oppose compulsory tithing have been saying. debosky said he does not believe that tithing is a compulsory requirement for the Christian but, personally, he has made a decision to tithe. Two things gladden my heart about this: the first is the personal example of debosky himself (i.e. informed choice); the second is the reaction of my fellow opponents of compulsory tithing who praised debosky for his stance. I want to join in that praise.

Joagbaje:
Except you dont just want to hear the truth. Im not quoting any MOG , I quoted simple scriptures that are undisputable.

I let this go yesterday because there were more important matters. But let me show you just one example of how you misuse these scriptures that you say "are undisputable"

Joagbaje:
@Enigma

Yes Peter died of crucifiction,Paul was beheaded and Stephen was Stoned to death

Because they as foundational Apostles were appointed to death by christ.

1 Cor. 4:9
    For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Your point is that the founding apostles suffered and died because "they were appointed to death". (This in your attempt to find a reason for why the apostles did not follow the "prosperity gospel" and why it did not work for them). The news I have for you is that the scripture you quoted does not say what you are claiming at all. What I will do now is to quote that same passage from other Bible versions; I will even leave it at that and not attempt to interprete or explain the passage ---- so that you can see with your own eyes and assess with your own mind.

NKJV

For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

NLT 

But sometimes I think God has put us apostles on display, like prisoners of war at the end of a victor's parade, condemned to die. We have become a spectacle to the entire world--to people and angels alike.

NIV 

For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.

ESV - 1Cr 4:9 -

For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

PS I have one piece of advice for you: while you may be used to the KJV, try and also study or at least compare a modern translation. You see, many people do not understand the old English used in the KJV and this tends to lead them to error. I once heard some well meaning Christians give the daftest and most convoluted meaning to the otherwise quite simple KJV phrase "divers tongues"

PPS You can go to the following link to see further Bible versions/translations on that 1 Cor 4:9 passage -  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=4&v=1&t=NIV#vrsn/9

Despite the perceptive counsel by aletheia, I will persevere for just a little while yet!

You are contradicting yourself here. Jesus told  them not to carry money. because they are supposed to be supported. read it for yourself

But did they collect any money upfront to "move the gospel forward"? Did they collect "tithes" to "move the gospel forward"? How were they supported --- people housing them and giving them food? Is that the same as feeding off the fat from fleecing the flock that today's fraudsters do? Did those apostles become rich from the "support" that they got?

You quoted a scripture  that it is hard for a rich man to be saved
Matthew 19:24
    And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I said earlier thaprosperity is different from covetousness or greed. The problem of the man was is  inability to let go. He does not give. God wants us to be rich  but not unto ourselves but to be rich unto God

OK: why did Jesus not ask him to use the money to "move the gospel forward"? Why did Jesus not take the money from him for Himself - and say he needed it to "move the gospel" forward? Why did Jesus say he should give the proceeds to the poor -- - after all the modern fraudsters say do not sow into the poor because the 'anointing' into which you sow determines what you will reap?

Also, why did Jesus focus on "treasure in heaven"? Here again:

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

and this:

"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Why is it hard for a rich man then? Again, how does this square with the "prosperity" gospel?

This is one of the things that the same apostle Paul had to say about similar fraudsters:

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Well, take your time to consider what I have said so far. In particular, when you are ready do please address those two statements of Jesus Christ that I posted earlier above.

@ Joagbaje regarding Post No. 1034

As expected, you are still repeating or parotting misinterpretations that were generated by the fraudsters. This is how I will answer that post:

You do believe that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, right? And you will want to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, right?

OK: from your own independent thinking (not repeating what a fraudster has said) --- how do you address these statements of Jesus?

1. Matthew 19:21

"Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

2. Luke 18:22-25

", it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

How does either square with the "prosperity gospel"?

Joagbaje:
@Enigma

Well you were sounding more sincere than the rest of them . but im beginning to doubt that now. Dont give scriptures personal interpretation. The word rich in that passage is material wealth not heaven or paradise. The Greek word is ploutizo,  from Greek 4149 (ploutos); to make wealthy (figurative) :- en- (make) rich.  Was Jesus spiritualy poor?  what was rhe poverty of Jesus?

I give you my assurance that I am really being sincere. My belief is that you have been misled and my intention is to genuinely give you another way to look at things. After prayerful study, it will be up to you to decide what you think is "truth" and in genuine conformity with the Bible. I genuinely pray again that you will eventually see through the "prosperity gospel".

Joagbaje:
Dont close your eyes to truth and be honest to accept when your wrong.  God wants us to be rich and sucessful. Abraham ,Jacob,Isaac,David,Solomon. why would a good God want people poor.

Proverbs 8:18
    Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

Genesis 12:2
    ,  and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

In a way, there is some truth in your point here. BUT do you realise that none of us challenging the "tithe" fraud has said that God wants any of us (tithe payer or not tithe payer) to be poor? Indeed, many of us attest to the blessings of God even though we don't "pay tithes"?

Anyway, the real point is this: the fact that a person is a Christian is no guarantee that the person will be materially or financially rich; the hope and guarantee is that we will be spiritually rich. Can you see that this does not mean that God "wants" you to be materially poor? Can you see that what we are saying is simply that being a Christian does not guarantee that you will be materially rich ----- even if you "pay" your tithes like no man's business?

Look, why were sooooo many New Testament Christians poor? Why was the great apostle Paul poor? Why are millions of Christians all over the world (including certainly the majority in "prosperity" "churches" still poor? Please I want you to THINK genuinely INDEPENDENTLY for once; because I know how the prosperity fraudsters spin all these and unfortunately you have displayed a propensity to just repeat THEIR arguments, which are simply the brainwashing lies that they sell to their followers and victims.

Joagbaje:
This message of poverty and suffering is of Satan ,to cripple people and render them incapable to make a change in the world
there is different between prosperity and covetousness. There is difference between poverty and contentment.

Firstly (and repeating what I said above), we do not claim that God wants you to be poor. But having said that, this your statement is still wrong on many counts. Their "poverty" and the fact that they were poor did not prevent the founding apostles from "making a change in the world"; in fact, their poverty did not prevent them from spreading the gospel across their then world and laying the foundations for the spread of the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth. It is another lie that the fraudsters spin that they need your money so they can spread the gospel -- when what they do is to spend your money on very private jets, very private universities etc etc etc.

Yes there can be a difference between poverty and contentment; BUT the Bible teaches that even in poverty, you should be content. See this passage from 1 Timothy 6 (you should read the whole of the chapter prayerfully and carefully):

"For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Do you think that passage can honestly be squared with the "prosperity gospel"?

Joagbaje:
I have heard the teaching myself and its not wrong ,it depends on the intention of the preacher which i believe its to help knock out poverty mentality. out of some people. In the sense that  If Jesus in his poverty could catter for responsibility of 12 disciples and their family, had enough money that even as Judas was busy stealing from it he didnt care, fed 5,0000. Had his need met. gave mone to others. Then why should you still be poor. If you cant receive the prosperity Jesus brought at least dont live lower than the poverty level of Jesus

The teaching is wrong! The Bible told you explicitly that Jesus was poor. The teaching above is only propagated by the fraudsters. [In fact I have just been restraining myself from mentioning them by name]

Joagbaje:
It was only sin that would make Jews poor,God had financial plan for them and gave them the condition for blessing. he doesnt make any man poor. But that was not the case in Heb 11. he was teaching about faith .What they sufffered was persecution for their faith .He didnt say they suffered poverty! remember he was teaching on faith and not this your poverty message. Persecution is welcome . even on nairaland ! all these insults and abuses.

Firstly, I have not insulted you --- even if I asked some questions with apparent sarcasm. Anyway to the key point: again, it is the fraudsters who spin this lie that it is because of "sin" that a Christian (like the Jews you mention) would be poor; one G.O. who had told his victims that a previous year was a year of "open heavens" spun this lie the year after when most of his victims still struggled. Let me ask you this: the churches of Macedonia whom the apostle Paul clearly described as poor (and for whom he asked for a collection) ---- were they poor because of "sin"?

Joagbaje:
I dont understand  what you meant here. Moses forsook the wealth of pharaoh . that didnt  make him poor.it was a step of faith Abraham forsook gift from King of Soddom because true riches is in God.

You miss the point: you said the people in Hebrews 11 where OT people which is why they suffered; but if they suffered for the sake of Christ, then what is your point about them being OT. Remember also that they were being used as examples in the New Testament - the book of Hebrews; the author of Hebrews did not regard them as just "Old Testament" people!

Joagbaje:
God allow self Denial . That is why we make money and give to God to move the gospel forward. Do you know how many churches and cathedrals have been bought over in uk by satanist ? and muslims and turned the into mosques and night clubs. because they had financial power. Please wake up!

I live most of the time in the UK and I know what is going on here; all I want to say in reply for now is that you are too simplistic in your understanding of what goes on in the UK. In relation to needing money to "move the gospel forward", are you familiar with a passage in the Bible where Jesus sent out his disciples to go out and evangelise BUT He told them not to take money or provisions? How did they manage to "move the gospel forward" then?

Joagbaje:
There is no money in heaven , No wealth in heaven! and for your information we will only spend 7 years in heaven. The highest reward in heaven is the praises of God and crown of rulership and its for people like us that are comitted to reach out to the lost and win sinners with our wealth. through tv, hospital, crusades, satelite .etc

While there is indeed no money in heaven, your misunderstanding in this paragraph really makes a heart bleed and weep!!!  All I can say is that you have no idea of the riches unforetold and the glory that is the promise of God to Christians in the Kingdom to come. Please take time to go and study this carefully.

Again, I pray that your eyes open to realise that you are just parotting a set of ideas that the fraudsters are using to brainwash people.

Joagbaje:
@Enigma

In the first place the scripture you quoted is irrelivant to the church of Christ.It was talking about the old testament people that didnt inherit the promise. Thats why Jesus came ,to bring us into the promise.
God didnt call us into suffering, but anyone that wants to suffer can go ahead and suffer.

Let me ask you these questions:

1. Do you know how the following apostles died? Peter, Paul, Stephen?

2. Why did each one of those apostles suffer soooooo much for the sake of the true gospel of Christ?

3. Do you think that the apostle Paul was rich? Why did he have to do all kinds of work, including working as a tent maker?

4. Do you think these apostles were ignorant ---- for, why did they not simply practise the "prosperity gospel" to avoid poverty and to avoid suffering the way they did?

Joagbaje:
@Enigma

In the first place the scripture you quoted is irrelivant to the church of Christ.It was talking about the old testament people that didnt inherit the promise. Thats why Jesus came ,to bring us into the promise.
God didnt call us into suffering,  but anyone that wants to suffer can go ahead and suffer. How else will you explaine this scriptures

2 Cor. 8:9
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Deut. 8:18
    But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

Psalm 35:27
    Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the Lord be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

i will appreciate your explanation

OK, let me help you a little bit:

1.

2 Cor. 8:9
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich

"Rich" both times in that passage does not refer to money but to "heaven" or "paradise" or the glory that is the kingdom of God; that is what Jesus abandoned to become poor on earth that we might be "rich" in 'heaven', in His kingdom.

You see why the "prosperity gospel is another gospel, a false gospel? While the word of God uses "rich" to mean 'spiritually rich', the false prosperity "gospel" want you to interprete it as "materially rich"; that way they hook you and they deceive you into believing that the way to get these material riches is by "paying tithes".

NB do you notice another point? That passage says Jesus was poor; compare the false teaching of these prosperity fraudsters who keep saying Jesus was rich on this earth and you should be rich like Him since you are "the king's child"?


2.

Deut. 8:18
    But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

Psalm 35:27
    Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the Lord be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

But you said those people in Hebrews 11 were "Old Testament" people and you are using their OT scriptures? OK, so they didn't know these OT scriptures that you are quoting? Or, did they all suffer as they did because they did not "pay" their tithes?

PS

See verses 24-26 of that same Hebrews 11 talking about what Moses did for the sake of Christ --- even though Moses was, as you say, "Old Testament"?

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26[b]He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward[/b]. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

Do you still think it makes a difference that the people in the Hebrews 11 were "Old Testament" people?

"Word of Faith" theology is heretical nonsense. Google "word of faith theology" or "prosperity gospel" and let your eyes open.

A lot of his fellow 'muricans' describe Pat as a 'nut'; indeed he can be a genuine twerp - as in this example.

I see things are still "cooling" here.


@ Joagbaje

Please forgive me because I'm going to sound like I am talking down to you though that is not my intention at all. The truth is I genuinely feel ever so so sorry that (while I accept you as a brother Christian), I believe that you have been misled into believing things different from the true gospel of Christ. You see, the logic you put forward and the Bible passages you cite (as well as the way you use them) indicate that you have been swayed by a false gospel known as the "prosperity gospel" - which in truth is no gospel at all. My prayer is that one day (by the grace of God), you will come to see the "prosperity gospel" for the sham (and vomit of satan) that it is.


@ all

A lot of the so called pro-tithing argument put forward by the tithe defenders suggest that we should have sympathy for our brethren here in that we can see clearly that they have been misled. The "prosperity pastors", both American and Nigerian, who many misguided people see as "christian superstars" (especially when they see them on TV including that chief of thieves' den TBN) have so deceived our people by false logic that our people cannot recognise the true gospel from "another gospel". You can see that a lot of our people equate Christianity with material prosperity. What the prosperity gospel fraudsters have done is to tap into the natural desire to be materially and financially comfortable and "spiritualise" this with lies and twisting of scripture. The result is that our people are deceived and brainwashed: our people feel that to be materially-minded is now spiritual since "god wants you to get wealth" (they will misuse scripture like Deuteronomy 8:18 and III John 2 among others).

Our people are so blinded that they refuse to see the examples and the teachings of Peter, of Paul, of James of Stephen; people who made sacrifices; people who were the pillars on whom Christ built His church; people who never preached this insane "prosperity" nonsense; people who never preached "tithing"; people who never preached 'give to get'; people of whom this world is unworthy.


Hebrews 11:36-39

36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Oh yes, these people commended in Hebrews did not know the "prosperity gospel" of course, otherwise they would not have suffered these things!

They cannot successfully arrange for 5 people to get drunk in a brewery!

Ujujoan:
Retards! They didnt think of 'friendly resolution' before opening their mouths to give ultimatum. As always, they put the cart before the horse . .

Swearing in a president without checking if he's physically and mentally caapable of carrying out his duties . . .

Rebrabning the image on Nigeria while doing nothing actually to CHANGE it.

Giving a country an ultimatum without trying a peaceful resolution first . . .

*roooooollz eye*

foolishness in high places!

I wonder what happens now, they've put thems @ the mercy of the Americans cos now they know we can't stand by an ultimatum, not to talk of actually take action.

These are people who cannot successfully organise a drink-up in a beer parlour!

enitan2002:
I just dont know why some peeps will rely on free to air to show matches to viewers. Pls, dont use this to milk people out of their money. I dont follow this type of idea. This is a bad example for the followers of the gods of free to air. Am very sure no one will be ready to render such help to you on this forum. And by the way when last did u read on this forum that there's a success viewing of EPL matches on 2M, its only in adverts we read that, but on the match day, there'll be simply no show.

Very well said, Enitan.

Joagbaje:
THE POOR MUST GIVE TO GET OUT OF POVERTY!.

This is a false doctrine used by many deceitful prosperity "gospel" fraudsters to perpetrate their fraud (419) of fleecing the flock --- enriching themselves at the expense of their congregations/followers.

Show one example (just one) from the Bible where Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, James, John (or any other apostle) taught that a poor person should "give to get out of poverty".

EDIT

1. Why did the Apostle Paul ask for a collection to be taken for some poor Christians?

2. Why did he not just tell/teach the poor Christians to "give to get out of poverty"?

3. Perhaps the apostle Paul did not know the "magic formula" that these fraudulent prosperity preachers know?

The  reasoning of those who say "tithing" is not based on the Law of Moses but that it predates it is often either illogical, plain daft, fraudulent or all three.

If "tithing" is not based on Mosaic Law, then stop using the passages in Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Malachi among others as justification for the modern chicanery. Indeed, stop using Matthew 23:23 since the "tithes" being referred to by Jesus there was the Mosaic "tithe" and not the type done by Abraham (on just the one occasion as far as we are told in the Bible).

If tithing is not based on the Law but based on (a) what Abraham did - one off event given from loot aka spoils of war - without any command or instruction from God, and (b)  the promise of Jacob (which we did not even know whether he kept), theeeeeen how can "tithing" today  be compulsory? Is it not that the "tither" who wants to follow Abraham will decide when (maybe on just one ocassion) he will do it? Is it not that the person who wants to follow Jacob will decide when to promise to give a "tithe"?

If "tithing" is not based on the Law, then the tithe preachers and thieves should not use "bring all the tithes to the storehouse" since that does not refer to the type of tithe given by Abraham or promised by Jacob and only refers to the "tithe" under the Law.

I just feel sorry for the misinformed honest Christians who have been deceived by the thieving (or themselves simply misinformed) tithe preachers.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=307798.msg5247025#msg5247025 date=1262620909]1. Can you prove it! else save your breath

2. Permit me to say that you're dead wrong, men how do christians here read there own biblos sef, are you saying the blessings of opening the floodgates of heaven was written by a daft God? or are you saying the blessings Melchisedek poured on the Patriach Father was in vain, for christ sake, its high time we all leave this biase mindset and see the realities of God's blessings from His word alone

Prov 3:
9 - Honor the Lord with your capital and sufficiency [from righteous labors] and with the firstfruits of all your income;
10 - So shall your storage places be filled with plenty, and your vats shall be overflowing with new wine
AMP


For Christ sake The Lord's Honor should not be robbed him, na wa o! NL xtians. Let me save my phalanges from the other points abeg. [/quote]The combination of your attitude and ignorance suggests that I would indeed do better to "save my breath" as far as you are concerned.

Got it olofofo, many thanks.