italo: Why have you been avoiding this my question. This is about the fourth time I am asking you this question from the Bible.

Show us :


1. Trinity in the BIBLE

2. Where GOD says I AM 3.

ijawkid:


All I am saying is that Jesus isn't ALMIGHTY God.....

Is that hard to understand??

There is only 1 almighty GOD and it. Is .not Jesu§.....



U doubt??

I guess u know who the almighty GOD is...

Don't act like you don't know.....

But you agree with the Bible that Jesus is Mighty God.

FROSBEL WHY ARE YOU BEING DISHONEST I ASKED U TO EXPLAIN 1 TIMOTHY 3 : 16 USING THE AMPLIFIED VERSION NO REPLY YET ,IJAWKID YOU ALSO.

italo: Why have you been avoiding this my question. This is about the fourth time I am asking you this question from the Bible.

It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation 22; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences(the 1st is at revelation 1:8 and 2ndly @ revelation revelation 21:6,7)): Yahweh. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God(Yahweh) also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.)


Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Yahweh and his “messenger of the covenant.”

That is what the whole of revelation is saying...

...The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Yahweh.

Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.


Italo do u understand??

italo:

But you agree with the Bible that Jesus is Mighty God.

As bible talk am I gree.....

My aim here is to tell every1 that Jesus isn't the almighty and that Jesus has a God and Father who is over him and greater than him....

That's all....

la cosa nostra: FROSBEL WHY ARE YOU BEING DISHONEST I ASKED U TO EXPLAIN 1 TIMOTHY 3 : 16 USING THE AMPLIFIED VERSION NO REPLY YET ,IJAWKID YOU ALSO.

You want us to use only the amplified version??

You sure??

Your still on that road that suggests that Jesus was GOD in flesh abi??

Which GOD??

The almighty??

ijawkid:

He is the 1st born of all creation and also an image of God.....

All those are image of Yahweh are creations of Yahweh....

English Standard Version (©2001)
He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of all creation.


What do you understand from the word ""1st born of all creation""

Lets analyze that word......1st born.....

Who is a 1st born??

Remember Jesus is the 1st born in so many ways....

This is how heresy begins with us. I told you guys I will puncture ALL your heresies. You just erred in this scriptures. Now, sit relax and learn the truth if you want to. I know this heresy exist in the JW's sect where they teach Jesus was created. The term "firstborn of all creation" is a prophetic title Apostle Paul revealed from Psalms Ps. 89:27, “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth”. The title firstborn does not mean that Jesus was created (v. 16), but indicates His priority of rank as supreme over all the creation NOT CreatURES. What creation? He NEW CREATION, NOT CREATURE(S). Let's pull Colossians 1:15-16 again,

New International Version (©1984)
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Now if He was BEFORE ALL Things and created ALL things, how is he created. If your interpretation is that Christ was created, it then contradict John 1:1-2 and it will also mean him being called “the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18) also mean he was re-born after being first born or created. If you also interpret that Christ was created, then you will also contradict Acts 13:33,

New International Version (©1984)
he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

The KJV says, "This day, I have begotten you....". It will therefore mean that AFTER Jesus was created and is the firstborn as you supposed, he was then begotten again according to Acts 13:33. Your statement will also contradict Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

It would be wrong to think in physical terms here, as if Paul were asserting that the Son had a physical origin or was somehow created. This is called the classic Arian heresy rather than existing eternally as the Son, with the Father (John 1:1-2) What Paul had is saying is the rights and privileges of a firstborn son in which we believers are the new creation which Christ is the firstborn, especially the son of God as those who are redeemed to the Father by the blood of the Son who would inherit ruling sovereignty. This is how the expression is used of David in the Psalms.

IJAWKID PLEASE,ABEG JUST EXPLAIN

Goshen360:

This is how heresy begins with us. I told you guys I will puncture ALL your heresies. You just erred in this scriptures. Now, sit relax and learn the truth if you want to. I know this heresy exist in the JW's sect where they teach Jesus was created. The term "firstborn of all creation" is a prophetic title Apostle Paul revealed from Psalms Ps. 89:27, “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth”. The title firstborn does not mean that Jesus was created (v. 16), but indicates His priority of rank as supreme over all the creation NOT CreatURES. What creation? He NEW CREATION, NOT CREATURE(S). Let's pull Colossians 1:15-16 again,

New International Version (©1984)
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Now if He was BEFORE ALL Things and created ALL things, how is he created. If your interpretation is that Christ was created, it then contradict John 1:1-2 and it will also mean him being called “the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18) also mean he was re-born after being first born or created. If you also interpret that Christ was created, then you will also contradict Acts 13:33,

New International Version (©1984)
he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

The KJV says, "This day, I have begotten you....". It will therefore mean that AFTER Jesus was created and is the firstborn as you supposed, he was then begotten again according to Acts 13:33. Your statement will also contradict Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

It would be wrong to think in physical terms here, as if Paul were asserting that the Son had a physical origin or was somehow created. This is called the classic Arian heresy rather than existing eternally as the Son, with the Father (John 1:1-2) What Paul had is saying is the rights and privileges of a firstborn son in which we believers are the new creation which Christ is the firstborn, especially the son of God as those who are redeemed to the Father by the blood of the Son who would inherit ruling sovereignty. This is how the expression is used of David in the Psalms.

The 1st born in psalms 89: 27 u quoted is it as regards kingship and government or as regards creation??

I'ma tell you this....

In all the. 30 times"" first born of"" was used in the bible and associated with or applied to living creatures the same meaning applies.::::in that the 1st born is part of the group....

""The 1st born of isreal"" is one of the sons of isreal...

""The 1st born of pharoah"" is one of pharoahs family...

Etc.......

My problem is how would this expression ""1st born of"" change its meaning when Jesus is called ""1st born of all creation""??

Another vital question for you to squash your stance on the fact that Jesus wasn't created by Yahweh(His God and Father),is :::::

Why is Jesus called the ""first born"". From the dead??

Did Jesus evade death and ressurection to attain that title??....

If Jesus wasn't ressurected by his Father how on earth can Jesus be called the ""1st born"" from the dead??

If Jesus wasn't created by his Father and God how on earth can that title ""1st born of all creation"" be attached to Him??

Jesus died and was ressurected...he was part of the family of persons who died or who will die and be ressurected by Yahweh.....but Jesus being the 1st to have experienced ressurection from Yahweh becomes the"" 1st born "" from the dead..

How on earth would you guys twist 1st born in colossians 1:15??

Goshen read psalms 89:27 again and tell me if that verse is talking about creation or kingship.......


It surprises me that you escaped from all the other places ""1st born "" was used in the bible including colossians 1:18 and stuck to psalms that was reffering to rulership and kingship.....


Even the governemnts and ruler ship power that Jesus has now,the Father gave it to him and Jesus ofcus would even return it back.....

Make no mistake my freind...

YAhweh created Jesus.....Yahweh is the cause of Jesus's existence....

I have asked you before :::::

Why do you think Jesus isn't afraid to call ""us"" brothers??

Why??

Read hebrews 2:11...

New Living Translation (©2007)
So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have
the same Father. That is why Jesus is not
ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
....

We all stem from the same source...and who is that source my brother??

Is the 1 source not Yahweh??

And let me tell u this.....

The same way Yahweh created Jesus as the 1st of his works and made Jesus the agent through which all other things were created,so also after Yahweh ressurected Jesus,Jesus now became the agent through which all other faithfuls would be ressurected........

There is no running from this salient points...

For the fact that the God of Jesus is also our God should alone tell you that Jesus had a beginning just like US......

la cosa nostra: IJAWKID PLEASE,ABEG JUST EXPLAIN

And what is your problem with 1 timothy oooooo....:-).....

What??

frosbel: GOSHEN, Jesus is the SON OF GOD not YAHWEH , stop running blind , it's becoming embarrassing.


Let us see how you and your Trinitarian counterparts will murder the English Language to twist these scriptures below



Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him,'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"


John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."


1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" ), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."


1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"


James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."


Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."


John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."


John 14:28: "You heard me say,'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity [/b]to let the world know that[b] you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."


John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."


Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."


1Corinthians 15:24-28 : "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."


The Debate is over for me, not worth my time arguing with people who want to throw away 90% of the bible so as to support their PAGAN doctrine.


[size=20pt]Carry on without me.[/size]

Carry one without YOU What! Don't tell me you want to run away o. Even if you run, I will catch you on another thread you hear me so. What we are proving here is the Fact and Truth that SCRIPTURE CALLS JESUS is GOD. Is that too hard for you to understand Quotes from your very own NIV

New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18

New International Version (©1984)
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28

New International Version (©1984)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:5

New International Version (©1984)
while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

New International Version (©1984)
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

New International Version (©1984)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: II Peter 1:1

Make I stop for NT alone. The fact and truth we are proving is that many scriptures refers to Jesus as God BUT Frosbel says, No, He isn't God. What if we begin to call him the Lamb of Gob? Does that mean he has four legs? Frosbel, you have to understand that the "son of God" as Jesus is by BECOMING which he became according to John 1:14. He isn't originally "son of God" but he "became" when he put upon human nature. Even in his human nature, scriptures still refer to him as God. Hence he is God that became man.

New International Version (©1984)
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. I Timothy 3:16.

Who is the "He" that appeared in a body? was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory Definitely not the Father BUT the Son - His name is Jesus Christ, The Everlasting Father, The Mighty God, The God our Saviour, The beginning and the ending, The God with us, The God who was with the Father and was God. Glory to God!

italo:

But you agree with the Bible that Jesus is Mighty God.

ijawkid:

As bible talk am I gree.....

My aim here is to tell every1 that Jesus isn't the almighty and that Jesus has a God and Father who is over him and greater than him....

That's all....

@ Ijawkid... I hope you can remain sane with all these logical acrobatics that your heretical position has made you do.

So is the "Mighty God" God or not?

@goshen....

Look @ these scriptures and tell me why Jesus wasn't created Just as we all are...

Hebrews 2:11

English Standard Version (©2001)
For he who sanctifies and those who are
sanctified all have one source. That is why he
is not ashamed to call them brothers,
......
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For both He who sanctifies and those who are
sanctified are all from one Father; for which
reason He is not ashamed to call them
brethren,


John 20:17...

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have
not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to
my Father and your Father, to my God and
your God.'"
......

If both you ,me,all humans and Jesus all stem from the same Father,how on earth would we be created and Jesus isn't??

Does it make any sense??

Jesus is our brother.....

italo:



@ Ijawkid... I hope you can remain sane with all these logical acrobatics that your heretical position has made you do.

So is the "Mighty God" God or not?

But I hope you are satisfied that Jesus isn't the almighty??

Hope you are satisfied that Jesus has a God who is greater than him??

and what is your problem with the word GOD??

What is a God??

ijawkid:

The 1st born in psalms 89: 27 u quoted is it as regards kingship and government or as regards creation??

I'ma tell you this....

In all the. 30 times"" first born of"" was used in the bible and associated with or applied to living creatures the same meaning applies.::::in that the 1st born is part of the group....

""The 1st born of isreal"" is one of the sons of isreal...

""The 1st born of pharoah"" is one of pharoahs family...

Etc.......

My problem is how would this expression ""1st born of"" change its meaning when Jesus is called ""1st born of all creation""??

Another vital question for you to squash your stance on the fact that Jesus wasn't created by Yahweh(His God and Father),is :::::

Why is Jesus called the ""first born"". From the dead??

Did Jesus evade death and ressurection to attain that title??....

If Jesus wasn't ressurected by his Father how on earth can Jesus be called the ""1st born"" from the dead??

If Jesus wasn't created by his Father and God how on earth can that title ""1st born of all creation"" be attached to Him??

Jesus died and was ressurected...he was part of the family of persons who died or who will die and be ressurected by Yahweh.....but Jesus being the 1st to have experienced ressurection from Yahweh becomes the"" 1st born "" from the dead..

How on earth would you guys twist 1st born in colossians 1:15??

Goshen read psalms 89:27 again and tell me if that verse is talking about creation or kingship.......


It surprises me that you escaped from all the other places ""1st born "" was used in the bible including colossians 1:18 and stuck to psalms that was reffering to rulership and kingship.....


Even the governemnts and ruler ship power that Jesus has now,the Father gave it to him and Jesus ofcus would even return it back.....

Make no mistake my freind...

YAhweh created Jesus.....Yahweh is the cause of Jesus's existence....

I have asked you before :::::

Why do you think Jesus isn't afraid to call ""us"" brothers??

Why??

Read hebrews 2:11...

New Living Translation (©2007)
So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have
the same Father. That is why Jesus is not
ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
....

We all stem from the same source...and who is that source my brother??

Is the 1 source not Yahweh??

And let me tell u this.....

The same way Yahweh created Jesus as the 1st of his works and made Jesus the agent through which all other things were created,so also after Yahweh ressurected Jesus,Jesus now became the agent through which all other faithfuls would be ressurected........

There is no running from this salient points...

For the fact that the God of Jesus is also our God should alone tell you that Jesus had a beginning just like US......

I will NOT continue running in circle with you brother. Since you accept Jesus is called God, you don't have issue with me. Like I said, Jesus is NOT the Father and the Father is greater than Jesus even as Jesus said it. This is bible truth. Our exercise is simply to prove Jesus is God. I am tired for today. I gtg.

ihedinobi explained it nd said it validates trinity, i want to hear u Guy's view

Goshen360:

I will NOT continue running in circle with you brother. Since you accept Jesus is called God, you don't have issue with me. Like I said, Jesus is NOT the Father and the Father is greater than Jesus even as Jesus said it. This is bible truth. Our exercise is simply to prove Jesus is God. I am tired for today. I gtg.

Lol...ok my lovely bro....

But abeg reconsider this issue @ hand...

Many people say the witnesses are a cult for saying Jesus was created by Yahweh......

it is because people have equated Jesus with Yahweh that is why that truth can't just be acknowledged......

Compare 1st born from the dead and also first born of all creation and tell me what is the difference...

Absolutely nothing.......

Yahweh ressurected Jesus,Jesus becomes the agent through which Yahweh is using to ressurect the rest of mankind...

Read this verse below ...it explains everything...

John 6:56 $ 57

56 Whoever eats my flesh
and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in
them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and
""I LIVE"" because of the Father, so the one who
feeds on me will""LIVE""because of me.
........
Did you see the chain in that scripture??

Yahweh gives life to Jesus,Jesus in turn gives life to us...



The same is with colossians...

Jesus was the 1st of Yahwehs creative works...while Yahweh now through his son(Jesus) created all other things.....

Always remember that when the word ""all"" is used when talking about responsibilities given to Jesus,Yahweh is always excepted....because Yahweh is the one doing the giving.....

my believing that Jesus is the 1st of Yahwehs creative works doesn't in anyway make me not honour my Lord Jesus Christ...

It only makes me appreciate how the heavens is arranged and how authority is respected...

And why Yahweh the Father is the God and Father of all....

That's all...

It also has made me know who the only true God is....

Jesus mentioned it @ john 17:3.....

And thanks my bro....

IJAWKID NA

la cosa nostra: IJAWKID NA

Hmmmm....u no even give me breathing space....:-).....

Oya wetin ihedinobi talk??

Him say that verse they prove trinity??

oya make we quote the verse na....


New International Version (©1984)
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness
is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated
by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was
preached among the nations, was believed on in
the world, was taken up in glory.

..........
New Living Translation (©2007)
Without question, this is the great mystery of
our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body
and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by
angels and announced to the nations. He was
believed in throughout the world and taken to
heaven in glory.
........
English Standard Version (©2001)
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of
godliness: He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations, believed on in
the world, taken up in glory.
..........
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
By common confession, great is the mystery of
godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in
the world, Taken up in glory.

.........
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And without controversy great is the mystery
of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the
world, received up into glory.
.........
International Standard Version (©2008)
By common confession, the secret of our godly
worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to
sight, kept righteous by the Spirit's might,
adored by angels singing. To nations was he
manifest, believing souls found peace and rest,
our Lord in heaven reigning!
.......

Now what is the problema??

ijawkid:

But I hope you are satisfied that Jesus isn't the almighty??

Hope you are satisfied that Jesus has a God who is greater than him??

and what is your problem with the word GOD??

What is a God??

Like Goshen said, there is no problem with you since you accept that Jesus is God.

But it seems you still feel like doing your circular dance...do it alone. We will be feeding our eyes and getting entertained.

And great nd important nd weighty we confess is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of Godliness. He (God) was made visible in human flesh, justified (and) vindicated in the (holy) spirit,(was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world and taken up in glory.Amplified Version.So God is the same as the lord Jesus nd the Holy Spirit.

italo:

Like Goshen said, there is no problem with you since you accept that Jesus is God.

But it seems you still feel like doing your circular dance...do it alone. We will be feeding our eyes and getting entertained.

When I say I accept Jesus is a God,you should ask me in what sense??

Is he Yahweh??

Is he the almighty??

Those are the questions that the trinity has hindered many from asking......

Ok which is the one anÐ only God we are to worship??

Yahweh or Jesus??

Ít is obvious that the Father is a totally different being from the son and also greater than the son........

Who should we worship??

This whole katakata boils down to worship.....

Who should be our God??


We must @ the end of the day worship that one God that is the cause of everything and whom abraham,isaac and Jacob worshipped...

We must @ the end of the day worship the God who raised Jesus from death and exalted Jesus......


That's why I quoted john 17:3 and also john 20:17.......

Those 2 scriptures are enough to solve this so called enigma ""TRINITY""

la cosa nostra: And great nd important nd weighty we confess is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of Godliness. He (God) was made visible in human flesh, justified (and) vindicated in the (holy) spirit,(was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world and taken up in glory.Amplified Version.So God is the same as the lord Jesus nd the Holy Spirit.

Now why would you say that He that was maÑifest was God??

why you no put Jesus for that verse??

Let me tell you and give you reasons why God is not the sÀme as Jesus who came in flesh.....

1.....God cannot be seen...(Never)

2......God cannot die......(Impossibility)

3.....God cannot be exalted.....(impossibility)

It was Jesus who was manifest in the flesh not God......

Thank you.....

That is why you see how the other bible rendition differ from the king james on that verse........

frosbel: Goshen and Enigma, can you kindly respond to this THREAD

I think it's quite arrogant of you to avoid the over 11 questions posed to you without one response in the last few days, and expect me to spend my precious time responding to your scriptural perceptions. Show some courage

Therefore forgive me , especially for the sake of time , if I only respond to Mr. Anony as I will be doing over the next few days.

Mr.Anony , let us continue tomorrow, a little late now for detailed response.

Thank You

Frosbel you have still not answered my question as you promised.

Is Jesus Chist the Word or was Jesus Christ created by the Word?


Here's a refresher of my oiginal argument:

Mr Anony: Of course we agree that Christ is the Word that became flesh. The Word took on the form of a man. The Word is the same as the man Jesus Christ. God manifested in the flesh.

My argument with you is simple: If you say that the Word took on a fleshly form, then you are essentially saying that the Word is Jesus Christ in the same way that water in the form of ice is still water.
If this is true, then the Word a.k.a the Son a.k.a Christ is eternal. The Word is God

Your other option is to draw a demarcation between Jesus Christ and the Word in which case you will then have to say that Christ was created by means of God's Word.

You cannot have it both ways.

[size=14pt]@Everyone else. Please let us not get carried away. This thread was never meant to be a Trinity thread, there are so many on Nairaland to choose from. The focus here is Who is Jesus Christ? Please Stick to the point.
And also the rules are in the OP plus we will only respect NIV and RSV translations here. I beg you all, don't muddle up the thread.[/size]

Mr_Anony:
Frosbel you have still not answered my question as you promised.

Is Jesus Chist the Word or was Jesus Christ created by the Word?


Here's a refresher of my oiginal argument:


[size=14pt]@Everyone else. Please let us not get carried away. This thread was never meant to be a Trinity thread, there are so many on Nairaland to choose from. The focus here is Who is Jesus Christ? Please Stick to the point.
And also the rules are in the OP plus we will only respect NIV and RSV translations here. I beg you all, don't muddle up the thread.[/size]

I have tried to obey the rules.......using Frosbel's own very NIV to debunk him and he had since run away . My simple argument also is to show that Jesus is called God all over the scriptures. However, NOT the Father. Since he is called God, why will Frosbel keep teaching and saying He is mere man and NOT God Jesus Christ is the God that manifested or appeared in the flesh or body, I Timothy 3:16.

Some are saying Jesus only came into existence when He was conceived and born of the virgin Mary and that accordingly He was only a man and not God.

Well let us compare their argument with what the Bible says.

1. John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Question: Is this verse saying that Jesus came from heaven or not?


2. John 6:38

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Question: Is this verse saying that Jesus came down from heaven or not?

2a. Compare the reaction of those who heard Him claim He came from heaven to the argument of those who are saying today that "he was just a man."! John 6:42

They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

2b. And see what He tells such people! John 6:62

What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

Questions: Son of Man? Ascend? Where He was before? Or Just a man? Ascend? To heaven? And He was in heaven before?


3. John 3:12

I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Question: How would Jesus be able to speak of heavenly things if He did not know those things; how would He know those things unless He was there ----- since we are not told that He had any vision like John?


4. John 3:31

"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

Question: So who is this "one" who came from heaven and is above all?

so we should discard th amplified version, so which is the true version.

Enigma: Some are saying Jesus only came into existence when He was conceived and born of the virgin Mary and that accordingly He was only a man and not God.

Well let us compare their argument with what the Bible says.

1. John 3:13

Question: Is this verse saying that Jesus came from heaven or not?


2. John 6:38

Question: Is this verse saying that Jesus came down from heaven or not?

2a. Compare the reaction of those who heard Him claim He came from heaven to the argument of those who are saying today that "he was just a man."! John 6:42

2b. And see what He tells such people! John 6:62

Questions: Son of Man? Ascend? Where He was before? Or Just a man? Ascend? To heaven? And He was in heaven before?


3. John 3:12

Question: How would Jesus be able to speak of heavenly things if He did not know those things; how would He know those things unless He was there ----- since we are not told that He had any vision like John?


4. John 3:31

Question: So who is this "one" who came from heaven and is above all?

beautiful again.

You did not add Jesus words that says

"the son can not do a single thing of his own initiative except what he SEES the father do the son does".

Question: when did the son see the father do all the things he is doing if he has not been in heaven before?

Some are saying Jesus was (and is?) "a God"; or that Jesus was (and is?) a "deity"; or that Jesus was (and is?) "divine".

Well, the Bible easily dismisses that nonsense.

1. We start with the famous Deuteronomy passage. Deuteronomy 6

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

This is the original Jewish "Shema". Here "our God" = Elohenu; while "The Lord" = Yahweh.


2. However, Paul recasts that same Shema deliberately in Christian terms in 1 Corinthians 8: 4-6

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Here, "God" = theos; "Lord" = kyrios

I have pointed out elsewhere that in the Septuagint "Yahweh" is translated "Kyrios": Paul is quoted in the New Testament as though he too was using The Septuagint; Paul could not have been unaware of The Septuagint or that it translates "Yahweh" as "Kyrios" . . . .

Anyway most crucially; according to the latter passage, to say Jesus is "a god" is to make him a "so-called god"; and we know from the Bible that every so-called god is a FALSE god.

So, this argument of Jesus is "a god" is a complete non-starter.

la cosa nostra: so we should discard th amplified version, so which is the true version.

No one is saying that that amplified is a false version or any version for that matter, all we are saying is that for the purposes of this thread, we will limit our translations to RSV and NIV only. I hope you understand and bear with us.

Goshen360:

I have tried to obey the rules.......using Frosbel's own very NIV to debunk him and he had since run away . My simple argument also is to show that Jesus is called God all over the scriptures. However, NOT the Father. Since he is called God, why will Frosbel keep teaching and saying He is mere man and NOT God Jesus Christ is the God that manifested or appeared in the flesh or body, I Timothy 3:16.

I am with you my brother. Jesus Christ is the center of our faith, he is the author and finisher. If we cannot establish who He is, then we have a problem.

Let us wait for frosbel to clarify for us who he knows Jesus to be.

truthislight:

beautiful again.

You did not add Jesus words that says

"the son can not do a single thing of his own initiative except what he SEES the father do the son does".

Question: when did the son see the father do all the things he is doing if he has not been in heaven before?

Bros, for this thread we are not so much concerned about the relationship between the Father and the Son, we are more concerned with establishing who exactly the Son is.
I see you agree that Jesus existed before He came to earth. This is what I want frosbel to tell us yes or no?