₦airaland Forum

dblackninja:
Lol! Speaking with facts or misconstruing words?

facts

dblackninja:
Yeah..though I understand what he meant it's because of how we started yesterday and macof doesn't like those terms.

If babalawos worship idols and an idol is an element of worship in a religion then I believe we have actually arrived at a conclusion Not so??

I can see someone making sense. Wish Rey can learn how to argue from you.

Reyginus:
Nonsense. Your problem is English Language. It's not in your place to call dogma a belief and not vice versa but the position of English Grammar.

If he accepts that a Dogma is a belief and defines religion as a set or institution of dogmas and he Also concludes it by saying it relates to the divine, when he accepts Orisha relates to the divine, how then does it not fit into the definition of a Religion?

Do you understand what you are defending at all or you just feel you owe your brother in ATR the position of an ally?

English is not like mathematics where x=y is same as y=z.

Can you tell us how belief equals dogma?

dblackninja:
Lol Folykaze the advocate of macof Lmao
Maybe he's an Orisha and you're an Aborisha..his mouth

I disagree with the guy on some issue. But here, he is speaking with facts. Only that Rey is twisting his words because he is absent

Reyginus:
If that's the case I accept I was wrong then.

One in a zillion time.

You try

Reyginus:
Lol. Just spotted this. But did he say that Orisha relates to the divine? What's an institution and please don't confuse yourself. I need Wikipedia or Oxford definition.

Orisha relates to divine. Yes.


Organisation is an established organisation.

Reyginus:
He said? Wow! You are genius. So our understanding of English Language should be based on Macofs interpretation of it on this thread and not really what it really is?

A belief is a dogma so his statement is simply a testament of his poor grasp of the matter and his bias for same. Do you agree with the below from Wikipedia?

' Dogma is a belief or set of beliefs that is
accepted by the members of a group without
being questioned or doubted'

I am serving as his advocate here. So I will rely on his submission.

He already said dogma is a belief but do not agree belief is a dogma. There are two different things here.

He acknowledge dogma is a belief. He only deny belief been a dogma.

Now go back and read his word clearly.

dblackninja:
That's confusianism lol. He subconsciously knows the truth but doesn't want to voice it out before it really becomes the truth. And because of that, they won't know when their subconscious takes over their hand.
Look out what folykaze said
A babalawo cannot answer to his Idol because Idol is not a religion but an element worthy of worship of a particular religion .
He already knew that ^^ but decided that dragging over it is the best bet. Hope that statement becomes clear to him because macof is beating about the bush with his own statement.

Can you see Rey twisting my words in and out?

Reyginus:
Lolol. Something is not an idol but it is an element worthy of worship(idol). Logical contradiction everywhere. This only happens when someone either doesn't understand what he's saying or already made up on what to accept.

Dblackninja, can you see this pure twisting and bending?

Where did I say Idol is not Idol?

I said, a babalawo can not answer to Idol because Idol is not a religion but an element/object of worship in a religion.

If one ask the religion you belong to, are you going to answer Jesus or Christianity?

Why are you twisting my words?

Reyginus:
Lolol. Where exactly did I go wrong?

He said believe is not a dogma

he also denied Orisha veneration not been a religion because Iseese is not an Institution.

dblackninja:
I believe we have passed this point yesterday. You are still saying the same thing naa. Christians worship Jesus. I don't see any difference here to be hard heartened. It's only macof, who has a problem with the word worship, that is heart heartened.

You dont get the point.

Christians worship Jesus but this worship is seem directed to God. Jesus is not the God. He is just the mediator or a means through which you can reach God.

Samething as an Idol. It is a representation of Gods.

Reyginus:
Lolol. Imagine who's accusing me of not making sense. One says religion is a set of dogmas relating to the divine. Belief is a dogma. He accepts his Orisa is a belief. He accepts it relates to the divine. But he says it's not a religion. Lol. You guys have a wonderful sense of Logic.

This guy is a pathological liar.

dblackninja:
Aright


That I don't worship and revere the Nigerian flag doesn't mean that others do not as well.
Remember we are not only talking about some clan and what Orisa means to them. We are talking of African traditional religion as a whole.
You can refer to FOLYKAZE post where he said that Africans worship idols. There might be reasons for the worship, but the fact is that they worship them.

Someone saluting flag is what you see.

The person saluting flag says he is honoring his nation.

Where do you fall in here?

dblackninja:
This is what your source has to say about religion:

Simple Definition of religion
: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

You just highlightedthe underlined to say that is only what religion means. Ignoring the 1st and the 3rd.

You can look very well, the loopholes are glaring in the definitions. We have a subject which we are discussing. You would not want me to delve into the irrelevant.

1. Believe in a god or group of gods is theism. Not religion. Therefore, that definition is completely wrong and lack substance.

2. The definition comprises every details of what religion is. Reason why I picked it.

3. We are discussing spirituality and religion. Even when football can be religion, it does not entail spiritualism so this definition is out of space.

dblackninja:
You 100% agreed with me over here. Oh yeah Idol is not a religion, it's just a graven image. The belief in and worship of it is the religion like you buttressed [subconsciously I think] in the underlined above^^

Is a river a graven image?

dblackninja:
Still the same thing above ^^^

Cow is not a graven image. You still fail to show us the religion of babalawo.

dblackninja:
Good. They might have a sect they might not. Whether they have a name or not doesn't change anything. I believe you must have heard of Sango worshippers.

What is the name of the religion Ogun worshippers belong to?

If you dont have a name for it, it is not organised or institutionalized and cannot be called religion.

dblackninja:
Your source said otherwise. Are they lying as well?

You are the one turning a blind eye to reality.

Jesus teaching collapse if christianity become extinct. Therefore, there is no religion outside the organisation.

dblackninja:
Dictionary usually has different connotations for a word. Whenever you are looking for word try as much as possible to read everything it has to offer for it.
Mine has up to 4 connotations for atheism. All still standard. I can snap and send to you if you want.

Subject and angle should also be considered

macof:
The Nigerian flag is to Nigerians what an Ere Orisa is to an Isese adherent

so if Nigerians cannot say they worship the flag no matter how devoted they are to the State, it's only logical to say the same concerning the idols no matter how devoted they are to the Orisa

Can you just split their head and insert the quote for them to understand?

dblackninja:
Hahaha my brother, just trying to follow them step by step chaa..but once it begins to go in circles, that's when I pull out.
At least we have ascertain that Africans worship idols and have cancelled the claim that Africans (those invovled) don't worship it.

You are hardhearted like Rey.

A Soldier who salute the flag is not necessarily saluting the piece of cloth and painting but honouring what the flag represent. I.e nation or organisation. What you see is a man standing put before a flag.

Obama can be Michelle playboy. When Michelle bows and honor him, he is not just honoring Obama but the office of the president which Obama represent.

Christian worship Jesus not because Jesus is the Almighty God or Jehovah is not jealous any longer for worshipping another person. Jesus is the representation of Jehovah Colossian 1:15.

dblackninja:
I'll like to know that dictionary of yours and know wether that is all it has to say about religion. Look at the images below and relate to them.

This is where I got my own definition. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

dblackninja:
A dibia/babalawo answers to his idol. The belief in and worship of that his deity is his religion.

Is Jesus samething as Christianity? Is Mohammad samething as Islam? Is Buddha samething as Buddhism?

A babalawo cannot answer to his Idol because Idol is not a religion but an element worthy of worship of a particular religion.

Take a cow for example, in some religion, you sacrifice it and eat it. In another religion like some Hindu sects, you bow down and worship cow. This act is called goo puja. Does this make cow their religion? Nope. But we can simply call cow worshippers Hindu because they belong to hindi religion which is an institution.

I have never seen a Babalawo that can answer the question "which religion do you belong to" because they dont have one.

They might simply say traditional or native religion but this is not distinct and definate as traditional can be in multiple facet.

There is no religion outside the organised system or institution.

dblackninja:
I believe once we're able to solve what religion means, then all our problems are solved.
Is Google lying by giving that definition of religion?
Is religion all about an organized institution and anything outside an institution not religious? Or are google and all other dictionary I know of right about their definition??

Dictionary distort, sugarcoat and bastardise the meaning fo a word sometimes. For example, some dictionary define atheism as a belief. Some dictionary define God only from Christian and Islamic perspective. So one need to analyse each dictionary meaning before applying it.

Reyginus:
You'd be wasting your time if you keep coming cool or pretending they are making sense. Watch how he pulls a new Definition for Religion out of somewhere dark. It's just a Christian saying Christianity is a way of worship buy not a religion.

You want me to eat your crap without analyzing it. We are not dummies who accept doctrines without proper evaluation.

His definition is not making any sense as football can also be turned to a form of religion. There are lot of loopholes and do not contain appropriate substance.

Come up with sound argument and forcing your own crap down people throat

Reyginus:
Another illogical piece of beautiful nonsense. The question simply is, if he accepts that belief is a dogma and his Orisa relates to the divine then is his faith not Religious? Don't dodge this just a yes or no will do.

where did he accept that belief is dogma?

dblackninja:
The problem once again is just seeing religion as an institution or an organized something (like Islam and co.)--while the dictionary (which I believe we're using as an authority) made mention of personal god(s) and someone It isn't only when something is organised that it becomes a religion, just like it isn't only when a crime is organised that it becomes a crime.
We can still go back to the definition of religion.

There is the angle you are not seeing it from. There is a personal God but the personality of this god is composed/made up by the founder of the religion. Religion just like every institution has a founder, aim and features. I can not just worship any random thing. Religion creates a personality for a figure and will wish such figure is being worshipped.

The act of worshipping Jehovh makes me a Christian. Because without christianity which is an institution, there is no Jehovah.

I become a muslim when I start worshipping Allah. There is no Allah outside Islam. The fasting, five times prayer and facing of Mecca came into light because there is an institution set aside for principle and standard of getting closer to Allah.

Though, I might choose to worship Jehovah alone. That does not make me a spiritual person because I am creating my own standard from an organisation.
Therefore, in religion, you cannot remove the institution.

This is why another dictionary define religion as an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

dblackninja:
It is as complete as it can be. As far as devotion is there, then it becomes a religion. There're lots of sayings to buttress that. Haven't you heard of this statement: Football is our religion ?

Money is also the God of this age.

But your definition contrast with this submission.

Rolando could be an Idol but not a supernatural entity.

Money could be God but not a supernatural controling power.

Economics self is a religion. You can google buddhist economics.

dblackninja:
I believe that I have shown that the definition is quite clear above. Now are dibias/babalawos, who are devoted to their oracle and idols, religious?

On a first thought, your definition have lot of loopholes and lack real substances.

When you are a christian, you are answering to christianity. What religion does a babalawo or dibia answers to?

dblackninja:
Okay.
What happens to the definition of Google which I quoted before and also that from the dictionary saying that religion means:

▪The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.

This can aslo be said for spirituality. The fence is positioned at the point where the sense of supernaturals become organised and institution created out of it.

dblackninja:
▪ Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

Is football viewing a religion? I have friends who are devoted to Barcelona. Some are die hard fan of Rolando. Does that make them a religious person?

This definition is incomplete.

dblackninja:
Are babalawos/Aborishas not practing that thing above?

There is no clear cut with that definition. So I cant answer you for now.

dblackninja:
Yeah people can come together to form a system of worship and it's called a religious organisation.
See what Google has to say about religion:

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

Which tallies with that of my dictionary:
--The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
--Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

I don't know who Aborishas are or of their activities. Maybe they are elders of a society or law makers in a kingdom...but I know who babalawos are, called dibias in my region. They and their followers worship idols...Are they religious??

Aborisha and Babalawo is almost the same.

They are not religious.

dblackninja:
Coool then we are of the same agreement
Hope macof can read and understand this as well

Though I don't know your stand about religion. Are African idol worshippers religious?

A religion is an institution which tends to bind man and God together by setting out some rule, codes, ethics, tradtion, doctrine and dogmas in an effort to bring man and God closely.

Aborisha are not religious. They are more spiritual but not religious.

Reyginus:
No. Institution? Where please? You are redefining it for him? Someone says Religion is a set of dogmas relating to the divine and he accepts that his faith fits into these two but it's not Religion. Is this logic only within ATR members?

You always prove that you are a mischievous person.

This is macof words.

"""I don't like to see African Traditional Religion as Religion at all, people call it religion having western ideas in mind
in Yoruba only recently did people start saying "esin ibile" - native religion
but it's wrong. .. It is Isese or Aborisha - Which is best translated as "Yoruba elements of spirituality" or " veneration of Orisa""""

He said religion is
"""an institution of dogmas relating to the Divine"""

No Aborisha or adherent of Yoruba spirituality sees Orisha system as a religion. I have argued this for years but you are bent to twist and see things the way you want.

He also defined religion as an institution. . . .

Treat the issue from there.

dblackninja:
No no no not just acknowledgement, you can use the terms reverence and adoration to explain it. Worship is much deeper than acknowledgement for the later is simply admitting that this this this is or has this this this this.

Now do Africans worship idols?

Adoration simply me deep love, strong admiration, respect and devotion to/for something and someone.

Reverence is deep respect.

How do you show love and respect one without acknowledging the worth of that person? The act of showing love to something is equivalent to acknowledging the worth. When you adore, respect and show much love to someone, you are worshipping it.

Note, I didnt say simply acknowledgment but acknowledgment of worth of something.

And Yes, Africans worship Idols. Just like Christians worship God through Jesus

dblackninja:
Wow are you a Catholic? Those scenarios among other verses never fail me since time immemorial whenever am in support of the idols they worship.
Now let's see:
Well I believe that you are conceptualising sin based on some religious laws, though I didn't talk of sin but I can answer you out rightly that it's not a sin because it was an instruction given to them by their moral giver.
Same with that of moses. The snake in a sense is representing/equals healing. Look at snake and be healed. Don't look, then you won't be healed. Believe that it's god that heals and don't look--then Satan will have mercy on your soul (Means you won't be healed as wel).

Are catholics idolaters...YES. What ever idol they mould represents what it's meant for, Not sango or another thing, for they don't mould idols representing sango. And those idols are revered and worshipped and not meant for decoration (You can see them genuflecting, bowing down to among other things in front of those idols).
I still fail to see how those scenarios extricate idols from worship in terms of African spirituality as you would like to term it. And
Since you used the action of the biblical god, can you tell me why he becomes angry if the Isrealites begin to worship other idols?

How do you define worship?

Worship simply is acknowledging the worth of something or someone.

The bible says give to Ceasar what belong to Ceasar and give to God what belongs to God. The bible encourage respect for the authority of the land. If you are giving to Ceasar, you are acknowledging the worth of Ceasar and as well worshipping it.

dblackninja:
Okay Catholics deceive themselves by saying that those idols are not worshipped but used for intercession. They are just using it as an excuse to justify what they are doing-- (was once one of them and can prove anytime any day that they don't worship it..lol )

Imagine some one praying in front of the idol mary today and tomorrow claims that the idol wept and cured him/her...And someone at the back will be saying it isn't worship..that's ridiculous at best

Maybe you can peep into any dictionary you have or Wikipedia and tell me what they say about worship.

Making or carving an image of divines is not a sin as the bible even instructed Isrealites of old to carve two golden statues of cherubim. It ws same God who asked moses to put a carve image of snake which people will look up to. Isnt that idolatry?

dblackninja:
Am So confused, If that thing carved or molded is a representative image of Orisa, and that carved thing is neither venerated nor worshipped but used in veneration of that same carved thing (which represents Orisa).. I don't quite follow.

In one scene you're saying its neither worshipped nor venerated
In another scene, you're saying the same thing is used to venerate itself

An image used to represent an entity attracts the same worth as what it is representing. Just like a national flag is known as a national identity or representation, it is a mere piece of clothing and painting put carries the same respect, worth and value by those who are patriots to a nationality.

A soldier or public servant will salute a national flag. Same way an Aborisha will bow before his artifact. However, that soldier is not serving the flag but what the flag represent. This is the same way Aborisha is not serving artifact but what the artifact represent which are Gods.

Reyginus:
I hope this argument doesn't go like the fruitless one I had with FOLYKAZE last time where he illogically tried to remove Christianity from Spirituality even when it's obvious he doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the terms?

My question was/is simply what is divine? Is ATR divine? Is this very hard to understand or answer you are trying to be mischievous like your brother in ATR tried last time? A simple yes or no will do. Go ahead and stop trying to confuse yourself.

Yanga sleep trouble con wake am. Na palava you dey find shey?

I have shown beyond reasonable doubt the difference between religion and spirituality. You can simply read up those post to further undestand this differences. This will help you deep confusion on the subject.

The question you are asking macof is irrelevant. He has stated bodly that religion is an "institution". While ATR is related to divinity, it is not an institution where obligation, doctrine, codes and ethic are instilled on those who belong in the circle.

mukhcech:
I have so much of them that I use more that one for my business. Once, em on laptop I will burst him bubbles for real.

I need a POS receipt printer and it software. How can you be of help here?

poiZon:
do u know why there is benchmark of oil price in every budget?
go back check the benchmark of oil price in gej budgets of the 4yrs he reigned n also compare to the benchmark states adopted for their budgets too.
I wont spend time educating u on the effects of benchmark.

You should rather educate yourself maybe you will make some sense.

With the benchmark bullsshiiit, GEJ sold Oil at excess price. What did he do with the Excess fund?

When Oil was selling below 70 dollars, GEJ borrowed money to pay Salary.

Buhari paid whooping N658 billion as a bail out fund for states and have never borrowed from outside to pay salary even when oil was selling @ below 30 dollars.

poiZon:
trillions too will be looted under the illiterates watch, just keep listening n be prepared cos soonest u will start hearing news.

You think everyone is clueless like the fedora hatman who under his watch trillions was unaccounted for, misappropriated, mismanaged and delibrately stolen?

One do not need a Soothsayer to tell you GEJ is clueless. We know how he watched billion flies when he was acting president. People did not trust him which was the reason subsidy removal was fight down in 2012. We know how he supported and embraced corruption with his body language and words. Can that be said of PMB? Nope.

PMB blocked loopholes immediately he came into office. Now we know stealing is corrpution. Corruption is not tolerated and note, you will be disappointed.

poiZon:
will also comment on ur salary analysis. someone who earned 147k with children n suddenly his wage dropped to 27k wont go abt clubbing, keeping multiple chicks, eating at kfc or going to shoprite to buy kpomo.
what am I saying does buhari' budget of change truly reflecting on the true position we find ourselves?
what does he neèd 3.9billion for? is aso rock falling or the paints r peeling off that requires urgent fix?

gej was bad but buhari is worse.

In this same budget where recurrent expenditure is not more than 40% is what you call spending spree? GEJ spent more than 60% budget of looting on recurrent expenditure.

Change Budget target Capital investment which is enough to set a pace for structural development which in turn will bring chances for diversification.

Less is coming from Oil which is our primary source of living. Diversification is the game and Buhari's budget heads toward that direction unlike in the past when IB lavish his riches.

Now into my simple analogy, the man whose salar drops rather than going on spending spree is creating a smal avenue where he can start new business (capital project), he is looking away from his 147k and sourcing funds from untapped resources (Agriculture and Natural mining). These are for the betterment of his family.

GEJ was a bad manager and the worst at that. When he was earning large, he didnt sensed that what goes up must surely comes down. He added nothing but further lavished everything in our reserve. Trillions were looted under his watch. If he is a father, he should be cursed by his son.

plaetton:
My dear friend,
How far?

I don't know why people get sentimental over simple issues of fact.

What exactly do you surmise that I am defending here?

I am here simply rebuking someone who came here to publish outright lies and innuendos.

Facts are facts, opinions are opinions.

If anyone wants to promote Buhari or wants criticize GEJ, let them do it with FACTS.

For example, look how the liar stated that Jonathan left behind an external DEBT of $63b.
A big fat, shameful lie.

Should I have just looked away and allow him to publicly hawk lies?
Remember, there are very impressionable people, young and old, on Nairaland.

Have a good day.

I have known you to be intelligent when arguing. You also back your claims with facts. But bro, you are not doing that here. You are judging and throwing in sentiment here.

The OP quote NOI words and backed it with an accessible evidence. So to be fair enough, you need to show us your own accessible and realiable facts.

I challenge you on that