₦airaland Forum

[b Katsumoto wrote

Firstly, thanks for not resorting to insults in your post.

You are right about my assuming that Zik is not reverred in the East due to comments from Igbo sons on NL and from personal interactions with friends. No sampling of any kind has been done to that effect. But I must state that you are one a few (I am assuming that you are Igbo) that has spoken up for Zik.[/b]


Thanks also for not resorting to insults. I actually pick and choose whom I respond to based on the maturity of his posts. The reason for this malady of insults on NL could perhaps be due to mental laziness to logically respond to issues. Anyone who has the panacea should please tell us while those who do not go down into that gutter should continue keeping their heads even when insulted and help call others to order

Haven accepted that you had no proofs to that assertion about Zik's reverence or lack of it among his people, except for  the opinion of a few posters on NL and feedback from friends, posting the speech by a Zik's critic proves nothing as you rightly suspected. Zik had many critics within and outside Igboland like I know Awo did. As republican as Igbos have been known to be, it will be a shocker if Zik had no Igbo critics on NL and beyond but even at that, only on this thread, several Igbo sons have spoken up for Zik and few who did not  have openly professed they did not know much about the man and are reassessing their positions. So please the premise for your conclusion on the issue is faulty.
[b]
Coming out just from the ashes of the war Zik, in spite of the presence of prominent Igbo sons like Ekwueme, Onoh, KO, Okadigbo, Okpara and (later Ikemba in 83), in NPN and all the other 4 political parties parading Igbo vice presidential candidates, was able to get Ndigbo together to keep their own states of Imo and Anambra, win in Igbo areas of Imo and Anambra, came second in Lagos because of a large Igbo presence and the erudition of Ogunsanya, his soulmate, and yet make inroads into the North( winning Plateau state). Granted his performance dropped below that of the NCNC days but it is quite understandable considering the volume of water that had passed under the bridge.

"An imposing figure standing over six feet (1.83 metres), Azikiwe was sworn in as Nigeria's first president in 1963 when it became a republic after independence from Britain in 1960.

He remained until the first coup d'etat in 1966, which led to civil war in June 1967 when Ibos in the east seceded to set up their own state of Biafra under then Colonel Emeka Ojukwu.

An estimated one million people died, many from starvation, in the 30-month civil war.

When Azikiwe saw the hopelessness of the war, he hastened its end by returning to the federal side.

This was denounced as a sellout by the Biafran leadership, but his esteem among Ibos was such that when the army allowed elections in 1979 he again emerged as their most popular figure."[/b]http://www.h-net.org/~africa/obituaries/zik.html

"The Spirit-Man: Zik's persona is enigmatic, full of complex layers that are almost impossible to peel away completely to get at the real man

FOR MANY OF THOSE who lived in colonial Nigeria, Nnamdi Azikiwe was a super-man sent especially to free them from alien rule. Unable to understand Zik's persona, fables were woven around him. A story has it that as a child, Zik saw an old woman carrying a heavy load. Moved with pity, he offered to help her. On reaching her home in the forest, the old woman who was in fact a spirit, asked Zik what she could do for him. Zik requested for wisdom and power. The woman obliged. She cut Zik into bits and boiled the flesh in a big pot. Later, she magically brought him back to life. On her request, Zik killed the woman to prevent her from performing the same feat for others. That explains his legendary source of wisdom and power over his fellow man.

Another has it that with the magical gift from the old woman of the forest, Zik managed to extricate Nigeria out of a deadly situation. Ages ago, the Atlantic Ocean was inhabited by a wicked mermaid who caused the water to overflow its banks perennially to drown thousands of Nigerians. For a long time, the people of Lagos prayed for a redeemer. None came. When Zik learnt of their predicament, he went into the ocean and challenged the wicked mermaid to a contest. First, Zik changed into a spirit, entered a bottle and then came out. Then he dared the mermaid to do the same. The mermaid quickly changed into a spirit and entered the bottle. But before it could come out, Zik corked the bottle and took it away. Since then the Bar Beach has been given less trouble. The moral of the fable was that if Nigerians annoyed the politician too frequently, he could release the mermaid to torment Lagosians again. Could if be that he had actually released the mermaid to cause the recent flooding of parts of Victoria Island.


Even if these myths evoke laughter there is a sense in which even those close to Zik helped to elevate him to legendary proportions"
http://emeagwali.com/nigeria/nigerians/nnamdi-azikiwe.html


I hope  you can now revise your opinion about this issue of Zik's reverence in Igboland and even beyond.

Kobojunkie:
Can you show me that what I have up there is not the case? I mean it is easy to claim it is spurious but please prove me wrong, will you? Show me that this is not what the 'gang' continues to spew on here, year after year.

STRANGE LOGIC. Granted that this is not a court of law,however, if you wish your posts to be taken seriously you should submit yourself to the law of evidence which clearly states that the burden of proof is on he that asserts not on him that denies, "semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit". This being just an internet discussion forum, you do not carry the burden of proof and so are free to make assumptions, but to be taken seriously, you must assume that burden before you make your assertions, else, anyone can come up and make any claims and ask others to prove him wrong instead of proving himself right. That of course will make such posters unserious posters and have the danger of making the forum an unserious one.

Abagworo:
What most people have failed to understand is that APGA is an Anambra party not the entire Igbo.They have zero influence in any other SE state.
As for Rochas,he is definitely going to loose because he is from Orlu.Orlu has to wait for 12 years to produce another Governor.Any Governor for 2011 must be from Okigwe zone and 2015-2023 from Owerri zone.

Abagworo:
I personally would have loved to see Rochas there but we Igbos say "Uka akparakpa Isi ka eji ekwe ya".So the rotation agreement deserves to be honored for the good of us all.

If elected Ararume will out-perform Ohakim though.

At the bolded, why do folks come and make claims without any backups and expect everyone to accept them as gospel? Why not say that that was your belief or observation instead of writing it as fact.
Apga started as an Igbo party and was actually founded by Chekwas Okorie from Abia. In their first outing in 1999, they are believed to have won the five SE states except perhaps Abia. The longdrawn out fight bw Chekwas and Umeh sapped APGA so much that they could not sustain the fight through the courts and in 2003, they performed creditably in the SE but not as well as in 99. However, the infighting in Anambra PDP helped APGA to focus on the State and with the help of Ikemba and Obi went up to the Supreme court to recover the state from PDP's Ngige. PDP's rigging in Anambra was exposed by the perpetrator himself (Ubah) to showcase how PDP snatched the other SE states and beyond from other parties ( especially APGA in the SE and AD in the SW)

APGA is in a state of recovery with many respectable SE politicians finding their home there and with their deal with Jonathan for, among other things, a free and fair election in exchange for their presidential position, many SE states may go back to APGA in the Governorship elections if Jonathan holds up his own end of the bargain.

As for Imo state, many Okigwe sons are the ones rooting for Rochas. Each of the three senatorial zones have held the position so Okigwe is not being cheated. They have actually gone twice through Mbakwe( 4 years and 3 months) and Ohakim( 4) years. Owerri is the only zone that has gone only 2 years ( Evan Enwerem) and should be the ones crying zoning not Okigwe. Okigwe people prefer good governance to ordinary bragging rights of their son being the governor because of Ohakim's gangster style of governance and a similiar style expected of Ararume. I do not believe that Rochas will lose because he is from Orlu since people are going to vote for the best candidate and not on the grounds of zoning. There is a groundswell of support for him in Imo and several polls have put him ahead of the other contenders. I will post the polls when I get hold of the online version since I have only the Newspaper version.

Kobojunkie:
@Poster, I don't believe that report . You know why? There is no indication that they got written consent from Ohaneze, and the APGA, and MASSOB. You ought to know by now that according to the Nairaland self-made Ibo representatives, No REAL IBO can support any group not endorsed by the above groups. ROFLMAO!!!

And can you substantiate the bolded or have you fallen into the malady of many NLanders of making spurious claims?

@ OP

If the elections are free and fair, Rochas will dust all. It does not however stop anyone in supporting whomever he wishes even if he claims that he represents all Imo people both dead and alive, born and yet to be born. It is a free world.

Katsumoto:
Correct
I think the reverence held for Awo by his people and the lack of it for Zik by his own clearly vindicates Awo and all those involved in the cross-carpeting issue. When it mattered, Zik did not even bother to stay in Biafra with his people, even if it was just symbolic. I get irritated when certain Igbo folks talk about the cross-carpeting incident and cite tribalism when the Yoruba people in their usual liberal manner welcomed Easterners and allowed them to contest seats in the West. It is almost inconceivable that an Igbo could have contested in the North talkless of winning a seat.

I do not like getting into these unnecessary comparisons between those two men or ethnic groups because both are great Nigerian heroes  and groups but for a
person that insists so much on historical facts, I find it funny that you will do the same thing you say you are trying to correct. How ever did you conclude that Ziks's people hold no reverence for him. Have you being to Igboland and interviewed the common man to reach your conclusions or you are basing it on the comments of a few Nlanders here. In Igboland the awe Zik is held reaches to the boundaries of worship, Zik was thought to be a god in Igboland. In fact there were even some funny myths about Zik holding the key to the Atlantic ocean and such. It is wrong to conclude that Zik is/was not revered by his people. His reasons for leaving Biafra when he did are well documented and even though controversial  remain his choice which I respect. You disagree with it as do many  and that is your opinion which I also respect.  But trying to demonize one and eulogize the other to me is wrong as they are both humans and have their weak moments and also missteps,

I do not again understand how it is inconceivable to you that an Igbo or in fact any ethnic would contest and win an election in any part of Nigeria not his own. What makes it inconceivable? Have you done a research on all the elections in Nigeria and found that No Igbo contested an election in the North? What is therefore to be gained by that assertion? How come a northerner was once a mayor of Enugu and an Ibibio was the premier of Eastern Nigeria if Inter-ethnic politics then is inconceivable. I think any nIgerian should contest and if possible win an election in any part of Nigeria he can that is what Nationhood is all about. I commend Zik for his pan-Nigeria and pan-African vision. He not only espoused it but he also tried to live it by 1/Living in Ghana and actually starting his Nationalist movements there as well as his Newspaper publications 2/ Living in western Nigeria and contesting elections  there. 3/ Learning and speaking the three major Nigerian languages.
Most Igbos who criticise Zik feel that his vision was ahead of his time, that he should have played tribal politics like his peers but they forget that each man has his calling. Okpara was good in Tribal politics and so Zik left him in charge of Eastern Nigeria  while he went to the centre.

As to Zik's comments to the Igbo State Union and the football team, I regard the negative interpretations here as much ado about nothing. As I posted before, politicians will always play politics. Zik would make similiar eulogies to Yorubas when he went to campaign in their land, to Edos, in their land, to the Hausas in their land,etc and he would even go further and say it in their languages.
If those comments were so badly viewed then, how come he still went on to win a seat in the western house as well as many of his partymen and even with the help of alliance would have formed the government if not for the carpet-crossing incidence?

seanet02:
The same ZIK that carries the betrayal syndrome tag everywhere. In the words of Shehu Shagari with AWOLOWO you know what to expect as he will never compromise and always have a clear direction, but with zik you have to put a plan a plan b plan c in place as you never knew where zik is going. He is always changing like the british weather. Is that the type of person YORUBA should have allowed to be their Leader? I will forever be grateful to AWOLOWO for doing what is expected of somebody that really loves and cares for the welfare of his people. Zik did absolutely nothing to improve the lot of ibos unlike AWOLOWO whose impact is still being felt today.

A link to such a quote will surfice.

Thanks for your clarification. In my sons case, I could post a copy of the Consultants' letter showing their resignation but of course that will be going too far. The recovery of course was accompanied by certain sudden physical reversals of the state of certain organs that shocked the medical and diagnostic team . However, thanks all the same.

PhysicsMHD:
I still don't see how Zik could have given that speech and expected to win the Western region. It was so ethnically loaded and so over the top with an ethnic agenda. I was shocked.

I think he really just wanted to bask in the glory of Igbo state assembly admirers praising his masterful oratory in praise of Igbos.

Physics, few posts ago, you mentioned how politicians talk. You have to realise that Zik was a politician extra-ordinaire. I wager that you would be wondering whether he was really an Igboman when you heard his speech to the Yorubas or to the Hausas. I feel he would also eulogize them to the heavens even going down history lane. Politics is a funny game. Just watch Goodluck Jonathan going to each GZone and eulogizing them.

I remember clearly  that in 1983 Zik would go to the North in the name of PPP because of his understanding with the middlebetters, then He weill go the west and campaign in the name of PPA because of his alliance with Awo, he will now go the East and be campaigning in the name of NPP. Then Awo will go to the east and campaign in the name of PPA and go the West in the name of UPN. Folks have dealt so much on Zik/Awo rivalry that they forget that in their last political outings in Nigeria, they actually made up and formed an alliance called Progressive People's Alliance(PPA) but unfortunately NPN came with their politics of earthquakes and Landslides in their determination to rule for a millenium like the third reich, (criminally snatching OYO and Ondo from Awo and Anambra from Zik) that rang the death knell of the second republic. Why don't NL historians want us to remember that alliance those two greats left for the East and West to build on, instead they keep going to BCE to keep dragging out their old qaurrels.( hope you wont start thinking you are being refered to here) I hope Nigerians will remember Zik's answer when he was asked why he should align with Awo, ' In politics, there are no permanent friends or enemies but permanent ideologies'

That is how politics is brother and as for your trepidation here, the question should rather be , what manner of oratory did he use to win the western region. He did win  with the help of his alliances  before the carpet-crossing saga,didn't he? That goes to prove what I am saying here. In politics, when you are in Rome, do like the Romans.

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=599800.msg7715531#msg7715531 date=1297467382]The man was a traitor to Biafra. He wasn't with us during our time of need. That is why a good amount of Igbos do not like him. I am sorry, but his actions near the end of the civil war is truly reprehensible.

However, I feel the man was a complex individual, in which I need to study him more. This speech goes against everything I learned about this man. Maybe he does have some redeeming qualities. [/quote]I am surprised that you have not learnt much about him and you are basing all your judgement of him on his few negative moments you mentioned here viz: the Eyo Ita saga and the Nigeria crossover from Biafra. How could you jugde a man who stood like a colossus in Nigeria for over 7 decades on only two events that probably happened during his weak moments. Every one does have weak moments. I suggest you be more circumspect in your posts about him and other late elder statesmen till you have done more study about them. Your zeal is commendable but sometimes they stretch to overzealousness that earn igbos a bad turn.

Eziachi:
I am thrilled for our dear leader and his family that he responded very well to treatment and hopefully he should have many more years to live. His presence alone worth more than billions of diamond to his Biafran people.
"Iru Dike Na Anyu Nma Nko" (The mare presence or the face of a warrior does blunts a sharp knife)
Having said that, I feel uncomfortable with his wife blabbing about everyone else dying. Every patient is different and the survival chance of each patient is based on many clinical reasons.
The response of our leader to treatment may be down to having got into the best hand on time and at the right time, his personal life as a non smoker, a loving family, no complicated life, good standing before his own people, peace of mind and many other reasons.
Miracle got nothing to do with it.

If you do not believe in miracles, many of us do and have experienced it. My son was also on the machine at that  same period at the ICU of GOSH and after the medical personnel and all had given up, God miraculously woke him up to the shock of all. IT was a miracle to us and the medical personnel acknowledged it. It is not everything that is down to only physical explanations. If  as a doctor you do not accept this based on your personal beliefs, no wahala, but please  I plead with you, respect the faith of Bianca and others.

Good move Chime. I hope he, Rochas and Soludo will be in the vanguard of the candidates for Igbo presidency post GEJ.

May God give Ikemba many more years.

Refineries are down GEJ is clueless
Refineries are back It is nothing. After all what is govt for.
Na wao! Good old Joe, you can dfo nothing that will please them. So do your thing.

Who God bless, no one curse. Abeg throw me corn.

LMAO. It is all politics. Folks want to kill themselves because politicians are politicking. It is funny that most of those whining against GEJ here are among his worst abusers  on NL. They call him many unprintable names including weak, clueless and the new favourite Odechukwu but now he has gone on the offensive, the drone of whines begin. Both GEJ and BRF are playing to the gallery and if folks on NL can not decipher that, then no wonder many people die for these politicians that will abuse themselves in the morning and dine and wine in the evening. SMH.

did you watch the match or just ranting?

owobokiri:
These new coaches will come on board and start making noise about how they will start afresh and make serious changes in the team. Then on match day, they will produce almost the same names that played the last game under the just sacked coach, thereby going back to the same standards fans hate to watch. Its crazy. I think they are just lazy. Unwilling to scout around like Westerhoff did in his days till he raised a very vibrant team. They want to be paid millions like other managers in other places but unwilling to put up with the work demands.

Good candidate but needs to go to the grassroots. Why cant he start from governorship. These future hopes all want to jump in from the top like Ribadu. Try Soludo and Rochas style even if you lose. Develop the political visibiliy first.

Good analysis. Loads of assertions. No backup sources.

One of the most hilarious exercises one can engage in is reckoning the number of academic exercises in NL in particular and by Nigerians in general embarked upon by folks to help Ndigbo to survive while hiding their heads in the sand like an ostrich pretending that all is well with their people. Just open an Igbo-related post on NL and you will be shocked at the number of non-Igbo solution providers surreptitiously seeking to insult Ndigbo. In comparison similiar threads for other ethnics hardly attract any traffic and die off after few hours. It appears that to keep a thread alive, you must find a way to bring in Igbo issues even when they are uncalled-for. In fact it has developed into an obsession for some folks.

Now let us analyse this thread. So only Igbos are killed in the North? No wahala. Please mobilize the Odua brigade to come deliver our women and children. Why bother about our men? They deserve to die because of their pride and self-glorification.SMH.
One of the most horrifying stories I have read is that of the Yoruba corper murdered in the North ,I think, 2 years ago, along with the men folk in his relation's house in full view of the womenfolk and with his family members in the west listening in via phone. The murderers took the corper's phone and were giving his family a real-time life broadcast of the events. 'Ya brother e go soon die, 'he dying', 'he dead.' I wept so much on reading the story of such man's inhumanity to man on a young boy that went to serve his fatherland.

But to the poster, such never happened. It is Igbos that are being killed and Odua children should speak up to save their women and children. Why stand absurdity on its head? The human eye is passive you know, only the brain can see.

If sombody is sincerely seeking for a solution to the northern murders and he wants a southern response, why not ask for an east/west cooperation to respond to a mutual problem? Why sit on a high horse and seek for an Odua intervention to save Ndigbo? If however he is only interested in Odua sons, why not ask them to speak up for the odua sons being killed? How more ostirch-ian can one get? An intellectually honest poster would have known that this issue now affects even Northerners especially non-muslims; Zango kataf, Beroms,and all southerners. Even the Boko haram extremists and the maitatsine of old attack fellow northern muslims. If prejudices and bigotries are not gotten rid of by a so-called solution seeker, he will end up exacerbating the problem or worse still spice people's mind with enough opium that they take their eyes off the problem and live an illusion. 'Nuff said.

Thanks TPIAH for trying to set the records sraight.

@ShangoThor

Your vission is good but if this campaign on Nl will succeed, there are so many bigots and supremacists on both sides that you need to address. I need not name names. You only need to open almost every thread to see them. They keep pulling the east and west apart and are roaming freely on NL. They have been there even before this certain harem came. He only saw what was on the ground and is capitalizing on it. We have talked and talked to break the empasse and even appealed to the mods all to no avail. You will be shocked to hear the response of some of the mods. They will tell you that there are also bigots from your side of the divide as if you are asking them to call only one side to order. You will see somebody banned today and two days after he is up and running again with even worse diatribes. Thanks however for the campaign but I still think that you should not write off the North completely till they are given enough chances and they fluff them all. True federalism might be a better and more possible option.

It is  politics stu.pid

@ShangoThor

Your vission is good but if this campaign on Nl will succeed, there are so many bigots and supremacists on both sides that you need to address. I need not name names. You only need to open almost every thread to see them. They keep pulling the east and west apart and are  roaming freely on NL. They have been there even before this certain harem came. He only saw what was on the ground and is capitalizing on it. We have talked and talked to break the empasse and even appealed to the mods all to no avail. You will be shocked to hear the response of some of the mods. They will tell you that there are also bigots from your side of the divide as if you are asking them to call only one side to order. You will see somebody banned today and two days after he is up and running again with even worse diatribes. Thanks however for the campaign but I still think that you should not write off the  North completely till they are given enough chances and they fluff them all. True federalism might be a better and more possible option.

Who really is this Abagworo and what is he on about?