₦airaland Forum

Phraser:
Bla, bla, bla. More condescension from someone who thinks you do not know football if you are not 150 years old. I'm a Barça fan, and you think I wouldn't know of R9's goal?

But that's not the point. The question is: which of Pele's goals remains a part of modern-day pop culture, just like Maradona's solo run against England or Zidane's volley against Bayer Leverkusen?

No one cares if he was the first to dribble on the moon. We are talking about his greatness/legacy/popularity/impact. You say he has more than Messi. So which of his goals are instantly recognizable by many in pop culture today?

Peles header against Italy, his round the keeper move, Gordon Banks save from Pele header and Brazil's team goal against Italy for which Pele provided the assist and is lauded as the greatest team goal ever. These are what are iconic on my TV screen, not no Getafe goal

Like I said the more you talk, the more you expose your myopia and ignorance and what your social media algorithms feed you

I named some goals I have seen a few times on a par with Messi goal against Getafe. I have only seen that goal against Getafe maybe twice. One of them was even forced on me by a gif Airmark posted here. Talk about your algorithms that occur to you Messi dickrydas that go looking for that shyt, it has never appeared on my feed. But I go looking for the goals I mentioned. When World Cup is starting this Italy team goal is always played over here in UK, nobody is playing Getafe goal on my TV, never seen it on TV. Super sports should do better in Africa with historical reviews when World Cup is about to start so some clown won't tell me about Getafe goal, when I've seen the goal below on my TV dozens of times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5HbmeNKino


This Pele header in 1970 WC final is more iconic than any of Messi goals. This is what they shown my TV. What have they shown for Messi in World Cup, a man who had no World Cup history?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPzNStFGgno


Then you have the Pele round the world miss. Miss that is more iconic than any goal they have ever showed for Messi when World Cup is starting. I guess they can now show the tapin against France going forward.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzRsvCsC4c

Phraser:
But your logic of gauging an individual's greatness with team trophies is sound?

Messi will not be as popular when he retires. But many years from now, his solo goal against Getafe will remain a cultural meme, as will Maradona's goal against England from 36 years ago. Which of Pele's goals has dominated the popular imagination in that way? Answer: none.

When you write stuff like this you only show your ignorance

Pele was the first to dribble from his own box and score which went round the world

If I ask you to tell me about R9 similar goal against Compostela, can you?

Do you know of Saeed Al Owairan goal for Saudi Arabia against Belgium in 1994 where he dribbled the whole pitch, or do you know of George Weahs own?

Only speak within your breadth of knowledge and what your generation shares on Social Media, don't assume we didn't see things that our TVs popularised before social media

Bluelines69:
So you’re just arguing against yourself at this point because you clearly said the old man should go and sit down with his 5km per game running era

Nope, it's not my job to boost your agenda, despite dropping clues that one of you can use to argue against Pele

The Brazilian State Championship is what you should have used to defeat Peles total career goals tally and hand that area of the argument to Messi, however Peles tallies in World Cup, Intercontinental Cup, COPA America and dominance over his peers on the World Stage still shyts on Messi handsomely emboldening his GOAT claim

I'm consistent in my dogma. I don't expect a player in the 1970s to enter a pitch with a player in the 1990s, nor a player in the 1990s to enter a pitch with a player in the 2010s because they operated under different spacial conditions due to the km players ran in each era (5km in 70s, 8km in the 90s and 10+km today) that's why I've maintained this is about how you performed in your era, not trying to time travel players into another era. You cant guess how a player from the 70s will perform today given the same physical training and sports science.

That's why I have been consistently saying this is about greatness against your peers. Raumdeuter knows my football dogma over how playing conditions changed with the km players run, that's why he subtly signposted you to that argument to throw hurdles in my argument, but it's consistent with my debates over the GOAT.

Ibime:
Your problem as above is that you want to conflate greatness with who was better

Who compares who is better over different eras with different sets of conditions?

Greatness is about how dominant you are over your peers and your achievements and stats and Pele is miles above Messi in that respect. I'm not interested in who is better which is a frankly foolish argument

Ibime:
The only thing you can say is players covered more km back in the day

Phraser:
"Of your generation."

Condescension and ageism are not valid arguments, man.

So it is because of this generation's ignorance that there is no Pele goal that is instantly recognizable in modern-day pop culture or that is as ubiquitous as Maradona's solo run against England or Messi's solo run against Getafe?

You don't even know how to argue. You keep shifting the goal post and cannot maintain a syllogistic thought. First you said you were talking about greatness (which really is legacy/popularity) and not who the better player is, and then I talked about how Messi has more instantly recognizable goals in pop culture, and now you are contradicting yourself by saying that Pele's goal in the 1958 final is "better" than anything Messi scored in the World Cup (I thought we were talking about greatness, not who is better or has scored the better goals?)

Please read philosophy and learn logic. You clearly have a problem with maintaining a line of reasoning.

You are the one with jumbled logic

You are conflating greatness with the popularity of your generation

Do you think Messi popularity will be the same in 60 years. DK yo know how popular Maradona was 30 years ago, or do you think Diana Ross would still be dragging popularity with Beyonce in this day and age

In Peles days, he was the most popular footballer with no dispute. Messi disputed with Ronaldo his whole career. So what are you saying?

Bluelines69:
Omo

This is the clue I gave you Pessimist generation to use against Pele yesterday but none of you are grounded in football to make legitimate arguments

Ibime:
None of these Indomie generation have brought good argument against Pele

Pele has one weakness you can use to argue against him, but nobody has mentioned it, because none of them are grounded

Ibime:
He got one statistical weakness Pessimists can use against him, and that lies in Brazilian State Championship structure

Almajirihunter:
So where are we now

Pele, Messi, Maradona in that order

And I used to rate Maradona over Pele in my younger years. Every generation rate what they saw, but when you review the records and are removed from the euphoria of watching someone live, you will see Peles doings are unparalleled in terms of his dominance over his peers compared to Maradona dominance over his peers and Messi dominance over his peers.

forgiveness:
U dey mind the dude? He is ignorant.

He is typing ignorance with confidence

Phraser:
Ibime,

Also, speaking of influence/legacy, how many of Pele's goals are instantly recognizable in popular culture? People know Messi's run against Getafe and Athletic Bilbao, his header against United and the out-of-the-box goal he scored against them in '11, his freekick goal against Liverpool, his solo run against Real Madrid on receiving a pass in the midfield from Busquets. And now I think the long-range shot he scored against Mexico in this World Cup and the assist he provided in the Netherlands game will enjoy that pop culture status.

So popular are these goals that they have become memes. Which of Pele's goals is in the popular imagination like any of the ones cited above? At least Maradona has the Hand of God goal and the famous run against England.

You can only talk of the ignorance of your generation

Peles goal in 1958 World Cup final is better than anything Messi ever did in World Cup, and if was done in final. Go and check it out. Peles header in 1970 final is an iconic goal they use to kick off all World Cup coverage. Peles banana freekick in World Cup, The man literally popularised the bicycle kick

No one is dragging popularity with Messi in this generation. After all 65% of the world's population is under 30 and only 10% over 65

Ask your elders who were iconic in their time . You never see them drag Pele with any other player like Messi did his whole career with Ronaldo until Emi Martinez gave him the final push. Pele was undisputed and totally dominant

Everybody that saw Pele is dead or in nursing home and he is still considered a GOAT. That's eternal GOAT shit.

OhBritannia:
How the argument went from messi must win the world cup first to be the greatest of all time To Pele has three world cups so he is greater than Messi

This is how GOD confuses haters

If they ask you to quote this now you would start fumbling

Messi needed to win the World Cup to be considered with Pele and Maradona or disappear into obscurity. He never stood a chance of being the GOAT. It's too late for him

Bluelines69:
I can’t even figure which player played better than Messi at that 2014 World Cup, Germany were brilliant collectively, links and YouTube videos go soon finish while we enjoy the greatest of all time Live on TV

If Oliver Khan a goalkeeper could win golden ball over Ronaldo in 2002 for making few saves Vs Ronaldo who tore the tournament down with 8 goals scoring the only two goals in the final, the only goal in the semi, and in the second round also. . . .

Why would Neuer who revolutionised goalkeeping in the 2014 world cup lose to someone without a single goal contribution in the knockout stage

Neuer also won the tournament with decisive contribution in the final Vs Oliver Khan who lost the final

You can see the playing field is not equal

We haven't come to Rodriguez, Robben or even Neymar or the German midfielders or Philip Lahm who deserved it more.

Phraser:
My argument for why Messi is the better/greater player (than Pele) is because he has more longevity, is the more complete player, has better technique, and because he played and thrived in a more modern and difficult era (against players with better technique and athleticism than those Pele faced). Bonus: he has more flair and his play style is more pretty to look at.

You talk too much without saying anything. You said you have been following my arguments and nothing I have shown shows Pele greater than Messi when everything I have shown shows Pele bodying Messi from stats to achievements to trophies on a like for like comparative basis

Your problem as above is that you want to conflate greatness with who was better

Who compares who is better over different eras with different sets of conditions?

Greatness is about how dominant you are over your peers and your achievements and stats and Pele is miles above Messi in that respect. I'm not interested in who is better which is a frankly foolish argument

Mohammed Ali is greater than Tyson Fury but Tyson Fury will beat him today

Moussa Dembele of Spurs is better by far than Jorginho of Chelsea but Jorginho is greater by virtue of achievements and trophies

So don't waste our time with too much words on nonsensical arguments

Players are to be compared in relation to their era, we are not interested in time travel to see who is better.

Ibukzy:
Brazil would have won all those finals without Pele goals

In 1958

Brazil was leading 2-1 before he scored

1n 1962

He didn't play in the final

In 1970

He scored first but the goal was cancelled by Boninsegna goal for Italy and the match ended by 4-1 with Jarzinho, Alberto and Gerson scoring the decisive goals

Pele scored the first in 1970 final, assisted the second and third - score 4 - 1

Scored 2 and assisted one in 1958 final - score - 5-2

1958 semi final - scored hattrick - score - 5 - 2

1958 quarter final - scored the only goal of the match

Keep up the lamba. Brazil cannot win 1958 or 1970 without Pele. Ask them what happened in 1966

Before Brazil, Pele never won World Cup, after Pele it took them another 24 years to win again

Pele is to Brazil what Argentinians dreamed for Messi only be disappointed for 15 years before Emi Martinez brought the winning formula via penalties

Bluelines69:
Let’s believe Ibime over FIFA the custodian of world football

You don't need to believe me, believe FIFA President

As FIFA award Oliver Khan over Ronaldo in 2002, you will form mumu or use your own brain?

Ballzproblem2:
Messi was the first player to win player of the tournament twice!,if your Pele really cooked as you are making it out be why didn't he win it

World Cup golden ball that even FIFA President admitted was fraud

Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo are the only players to be best player twice in World Cups, but they were only awarded once

Pele was best in 1958 - awarded to Didi
Maradona was best in 1990 - awarded to Scillachi
Ronaldo was best in 2002 - awarded to Oliver Khan

These are what the streets know outside of the polling booth. And the streets know Messi 2014 golden boot with zero knockout stage goal contribution was a complete fraud, even the FIFA President that awarded it confessed

WhoDeyHause:
Pele playing with Santos then was like almost all the gifted Brazilian players playing in their league or clubs since the Brazil government didn't allow most of them go to Europe. You saw how strong Brazil looked before modric chased them home. Then imagine it like that in those days like garrincha also playing for botafogo. If he was not afraid he should have come to europe not new york cosmos.

Pele was already retired for 2 years before he went to New York. Europe doesn't come into play. He retired in Brazil and chilled for 2 years until New York threw money in his face

Debroslink:
Kini big deal about Benfica that Messi hasn't done to Madrid (greatest club ever). How many league titles did Pele win in that Farmer's league or is it Copa Libertadores titles you wanna compare with Messi's ? Compare his club titles and it will dwarf that of Messi's.

Domestic league trophies... Messi >>>>>>> Pele

Continental trophies... Messi >>>>>> Pele

Copa America... Messi >>>>> Pele (never won it)

WC Best Player... Messi >>>>> Pele (2 > 1)

International goals... Messi >>>>> Pele

Official goal contributions... Messi >>>>> Pele

Pele went to one Copa America only, won the Golden Boot and Golden Ball, lost in the final

Back then Brazil send their B team to COPA, Pele is too big for that, unlike Messi that they had to be throwing COPA every year for before Aston Villa Goalkeeper could finally help him win one with penalty shootouts

All the other stuff you wrote is just from playing more games.

Take away penalties (Messi 109 to Peles 7) and Pele has more absolute goals than Messi on both club and international level, and has a way superior goals per game record - bear in mind Pele played midfield for the second half of his career with that too

hensben:
Ibime rest. Pele was good in one wc, he was carried in the remaining two.

Lies

He was the best player in 2 seperate World Cups

Phraser:
You didn't watch Pele play live, neither did you see him play in many games. What you rely on are "many Pele documentaries" and statistics (which is hardly a reliable way of gauging a footballer's ability), meaning you have no true first-hand empirical knowledge about his ability, and yet you are fully convinced he is the greatest footballer of all time?

Doesn't seem like sound reasoning to me. (At any rate, you are in the minority. Most people choose Messi).

That aside, you said all the "euphoria" around Messi would die down in ten years time. I don't think any right-minded person believes that. Have you seen the man's digital footprint and cultural influence?

If anything, it's Pele's legacy that's at stake—maybe that's why he keeps tinkering with his records on his Instagram page, aware that the world is moving on. The likes of Messi and CR7 were lucky to have played in the social media era, and there are hundreds of clips of them online, unlike Pele whose legacy is solely hinged on word of mouth. 50 more years or so and no one would bother about a player that played in the black-and-white era.

Seems to me like Pele was your football hero growing up and you are stubbornly clinging to the past, because I have read your comments on this thread and have not seen any good arguments from you to back up your claims.

Even if you are deliberately lazy, the 1970 World Cup is available in colour and on all media platforms

You are being deliberately foolish claiming a player with 3 World Cups, 12 non penalty goals, 10 assists in 14 games has no argument against a player with 8 non penalty goals and 8 assists in 25 games

Deliberately foolish claiming a player with 7 Balon d'Ors without playing Europe has no claim against a player with 7 Balon d'Ors in Europe

Deliberately foolish claiming a player with 750 non penalty goals in just 812 games despite playing midfield half his career has no claim against a forward with 682 non penalty goals in 1002 games

Deliberately foolish claiming a guy with 7 World Cup semifinal and final non-penalty goals has no claim against someone with just one

Pele has stood the test of time for 60 years. E no get one angle Messi fit use against Pele

Joezinho:
The way some people argue football is quite funny.

They said Pele played with farmers, yet between 1962 and 63 Santos beat on aggregate, Benfica 8-2 and Milan 7-6 (best teams in europe at the time) with Pele scoring 9 of those goals.

At international level in 58, he won 3 WCs against europeans.

Elon Musk need to provide Starlink for free in Nigeria. The lack of knowledge is grievous

How can someone call Benfica a nobody. Even before internet, we knew of the great Benfica team, that dominated Europe. The same Benfica Man Utd threw 40 years celebration of Busby babes after beating them in UCL final in 1968, like they conquered Goliath. Even if you don't know Benfica of early 60s, as a United fan, you will know Benfica of late 60s just from your club documentaries

hensben:
Your first point, you don’t use one game to win wc. Messi has been best player in two wc. He was carried to two of his wc which is fact. Brazil is the biggest footballing nation. On individual level, messi is the greatest footbalrt of all time.

QF goal, Semifinal hattrick and final brace is one game to you?

1970 he was Golden Ball with 4 goals and 6 assists

Messi was the one carried by Goalkeeper and everybody knows Messi 2014 golden ball is a scam. Name one goal or assist Messi provided in knockout stage of 2014

Messi has been a World Cup flop his whole career, only to be lucky to have a penalty saving GK in his last WC, and given 5 penalties, all of a sudden you want raise shoulder with the Greatest World Cup player of all time

Debroslink:
SCAM everywhere... Dem dey mention Benfica as if Benfica is a true elite European club.

Paolo Guerrero from Corinthians defeated Chelsea (defending UCL champions) at CWC 2012.

Let's add Guerrero to the GOAT talk then

Nonsense Pele "fans"

Since you jumped in the thread, you've been talking nonsense

Who doesn't know the great Benfica side of early 1960s that were so dominant winning 2 UCL in a row and reaching 3 finals in a row and 4 in 5 years

Pele disgraced the best Europe had to offer

Go back to viewing centre

Expert17:
Pele fan base is growing all thanks to Messi, NTA, YouTube and Wiki

If someone can be dragging with you 60 years later, just know he is eternal

Give it ten years, all the euphoria will be gone and they will be putting Messi in his proper position, assessing his contributions clinically in relation to others

When Iniesta was winning WC and Euros, he was the greatest AM ever according to the euphoria of the day, just 5 years later he was being dragged for Modric and others

Messi that won just last week with high in-game emotions is dragging with Pele. What of 60 years from now when no one gives a fúck about the minute details of the game. Pele is eternal

liveLongNprospa:
The same reputable organisation that said this after Ronaldo won his 2nd international trophy while Messi had zero

You think GOAL is a reputable organisation. GOAL that we wrote articles for while still in Uni?

Learn to diffentiate between Twitter handlers tweeting out for engagement and organisations official positions. France football magazine can tweet anything but when they do serious awards (eg Balon d'Or), that's a different thing

Debroslink:
Pele was playing in the farmer's league when Di Stefano was winning UCL 5 times in a row. Baba no get liver come Europe. He dey form goat for farmer's league.

A goat who hasn't tested water depths of Europe can't be called the GOAT

Ignorance on marble

Brazil NT players were banned from playing abroad and Pele was råping your UCL winners in Intercontinental Cup while South American teams dominated Intercontinental Cup

Who will go to Europe while playing in better competitions and being the highest paid athlete in the World in his own hometown

Europe ko, Europe ni

monerozi5590:
That one is not my call na!... Just a question boss.

Did you watch Pele play week in and week out?

That one no consign me

Whoever is struggling for data to follow their passion and understand it should answer their father name

Some of us grew up reading World Soccer Magazine every month for over a decade which gives you concise historical breakdowns, we watched all FIFA world Cup documentaries, many Pele documentaries etc

Some people football ends at the viewing centre. Some people football is ingrained over decades of knowledge, writings and videos, knowing the key events, personalities and import of occasions in an era. These have been in my library over a decade and a half, I can't find the Pele one. I must not watch Pele live to know he was far more dominant and acclaimed than someone relying on Goalkeeper for penalties just like someone 59 years from now must not watch Messi live to appreciate him. The A in GOAT stands for ALL time, and nobody is alive for all time.

monerozi5590:
But did you watch Pele?

So we should have replaced your GOAT in 20 years because next generation did not watch Messi?

OhBritannia:
All respect and much respect to Pele but let me cap you the legit.

Do you think a young Pele in this ear in 2022 with how football has advanced, gotten more physical and stronger, do you think Pele can beat Ramos or gatuso or pepe or van dyle?

Do you think pepe will score a single goal against this current Argentine side?

Football back in the days was a joke, a player will be jogging with the ball, he will past one to three players and still standing?

Hahah come and do it now and see if you won't find yourself getting rushed to the hospital

Like i said big respect to Pele but you have to give Lionel Messi his honour.

Had to come back to this post with this video

Pepe and Ramos are fairies compared to butchers of those days. Shït was so violent, YouTube had to age restrict it



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqzXw3fygBg

Bluelines69:
Without his goals will the game get to shoutouts ,

What goals? Penalties won by other players?

Messi has not scored more than 3 clean goals in any of his 5 World Cups. Those are Ahmed Musa doings

donstan18:
Ok, I want to troll him against Ronaldo with UCL success.

You got what? Number of trophies? Goals in finals? Knockout goals? What exactly? UCL with different clubs? UCL without Busquet? 8-2 Bayern? Getting mudded and outplayed by Mbappe each time they meet?

Infact! I no value National trophies again, can we see Ronaldo vs Messi stats in the highest club trophy ever??

We can troll Messi with World Cup and COPA sef

Which GOAT needs Goalkeeper to be constantly saving penalty shootouts to win an International trophy, something other GOATs did without sweat multiple times

Is he Jogginghoe in disguise?

No worry, let the Pessimists enjoy their victory parade first

kokaneprodigy:
Ibime no relevant person or organization puts Pele above Messi

Rubbish. Nothing you posted refers to Pele

In fact no reputable football organisation is yet to put him above PELE in any ranking

popizaino:
Yes that is because there is also no golden goal in this era. Golden goal would have won messi the world cup earlier in the finals.

What are you talking about?

What's golden goal got to do with 90 min group stage football. If France and Holland were in Argentina group, Argentina would have gone out in group stage after losing to Saudi, simple

FYI, Golden goal rule only lasted from 1996 to 2000. I watched football before Golden goal rule.

afrodoc2:
Soviet Union that won Euros in 1960 and Olympics in 1956 is what the guy is comparing to Iran.

Ignorance in low places. Imagine having to educate someone in order to debate him.

The bolded is when debate will turn to insult, and he will be wondering why