₦airaland Forum

raumdeuter:
In games Jorginho didnt play Tuchel didnt revert also

Jorginho is our only specialist DM.

You can't train one way for months and suddenly ask players to change just on the spur of a moment

raumdeuter:
There is a reason Tuchel is playing false 9, community defence, wing backs etc all tactics he didnt use before its to cover for player deficiencies

Jorginho is the overriding reason for this, followed by Alonso

nihilistjnr:
Tuchel is just managing the guy until something better comes along

You are right here. I laugh when they say the guy has not been replaced for 4 years. Man has practically been available for transfer since Sarri first season but nobody refused to bid. That's why he's still on his original contract from 2017 and nobody is rushing to offer him new one with 18 months left. That's not a player they are overly concerned about keeping, just that market no dey for am. As with anything Chelsea, money needs to come in before it goes out due to the amount of assets we are unable to shift.

nihilistjnr:
The whole point of a press is to force a turnover of the ball, and Sancho successfully pressed Jorginho there.

I will only agree it's harsh if it doesn't happen regularly.

The thing is, it's not a one-off.

Tuchel is just managing the guy until something better comes along

Sancho and co pressed alright. Their own can be seen as success of press

But your typical expectation of press resistance in your own players is not ball landing from the moon. 99.9% of shielding the ball is receiving from your teammates on the ground and shaking off opposition on your back

nihilistjnr:
He miscontrolled the ball whilst being pressed by Sancho and Rashford.

So he gave the ball away under pressure. The only way you can write this one of, is if this kind of thing doesn't happen on a regular basis whenever he is pressed - and that is 100% not true, and evidenced by Tuchel himself singling Jorginho out for constantly making mistakes against a high press.

The Manure one is a bit harsh as I won't call that a failure of press. Failure of press is usually when ball is on the ground.

However you are spot on with the others and how Tuchel highlighted his panic under the press

Maximilan:
Gallagher brace, how do we fit in this Lad in this squad

Gallagher can only fit in when we return to 3 man midfield.

I will chase Mount with koboko for Gallagher. Nigga gives me Gerrard vibes.

raumdeuter:
I think you guys are making too much of this particular Man Utd incident

It was a simple miscontrol which many players have done at some point in time, Many are fortunate that opponents are not hounding them fiercely and got away
If this situation long ball to Jorg happened 10 times He probably controls perfect 6 times, he miscontrol 4 times and of those 4 times, 2 no opponent will be near to punish

That's why I didn't hammer him. This is not a failure of press resistance but failure of control which can happen to anyone on a bad day. Jorginho failure of press resistance is more insidious and drawn out and can only be observed by watching 90 mins, how he hides behind players when the game is tough, ensuring he only drops 30 passes and his team don't control possession, how he passes back under the slightest pressure etc

donjazet:
Ibime and nihilist, who are your ideal DM's?

I will buy Yves Bissouma from what I know is available on the market right now if his rape case does not harm his career

Last year, I wanted Hojberg who was available

People keep mentioning Tchouameni. I haven't been watching foreign football. His YouTube highlights show good CM technique and actions but I can only see them for the CM position on YouTube, not the DM position. I will need to watch him 90 mins at DM to know if he has positional discipline

nihilistjnr:
Omo you get long memory o. That day I wan cry.

Ramsey and Lacazette followed the guy to tk the point where he refused to even show for pass again. At one point, na Kova go dey drop between CBS to collect ball.

TV camera will follow the ball, so won't always show what's happening off the ball, especially when we were attacking. Jorginho could not breathe, the man looked like a hostage

We all know this about Jorginho. Spain match, Pedri so pressed him, the guy was hiding behind Spain players. Veratti had to be dropping to collect the ball cos the belle-face went MIA

donjazet:
Ibime you are showing us selective stats and that's just disingenuous of you.
Jorginho is our highest passer in the team.

Jorginho is not our highest passer in the team, the defenders are. You can see Rudiger near the top. Thiago Silva is ahead despite playing less games. The other defenders regularly outpass him but have not played enough volume of games

If you don't know how passing stats work for a controller, let me explain to you

Easy games should be 80-120 passes (Jorginho makes 50-70 under Tuchel)

Midtable games should be 60-90 passes (Jorginho makes 40 to 70 under Tuchel)

Tough games should be 50 to 70 passes (Jorginho makes 30 under Tuchel)

These are the stats of a playmaker. Go and check the records of all the playmakers you mentioned like Rodri, Busquets, Xavi and co.

Jorginho is the only one that will drop 30 passes in 120 mins, hiding all game and claim to be a playmaker.

Below are the passing stats in EPL. Your bus parker is nowhere.

nihilistjnr:
In 2019, I sat in Emirates in minus degree weather watching Ramsey literally mark Jorginho out the game. Jorginho doesn't have the technique or physicality to be described as press resistant. Press resistant? Jorginho?
Did you see what Sancho did to him just last month?

We read your report live from Emirates that day how Ramsey pressed him to sege. That was the day you gave him the nickname akpuruka

popizaino:
You are never here or there when talking about DM,and this your write up just sums it up. I can see enough loopholes to attack from but then we will be repeating what we have said or heard before.

I would like to hear the loopholes.

donjazet:
Ibime, let me ask you this, do you disagree with the qualities Tuchel has used to describe jorginho below??
I have given you excerpts of the best coaches in the world outlining this player's qualities.
Do you disagree with the 3 of them?

Tuchel has highlighted his excellent reading of the game and dictation of the tempo of the game.
Mourinho has highlighted his ability to withstand pressure with the ball. {Being press resistant}.
Guardiola highlights jorginho's impressive passing with the ball and ability to evade pressure.

All these are key elements to today's type of positional play.
Why do you keep contradicting all of them?
Why do you keep saying jorginho is not press resistant counter to what every other person is seeing?

I don't need to read what Tuchel is saying when facts tell me all I need to know about the player. How do I know Tuchel did not make that statement after a Newcastle game when Jorginho did dominate possession.

I will be stüpid to mortgage my brain to someone else when facts tell me different. Everytime Jorginho plays a tough game, he can barely string 30 passes together. I don't need Tuchel to tell me the sky is blue before I can see it's blue.

These are Jorginho stats in his last four matches against Spain in Euros, Man City, Liverpool and Real Madrid.

You can keep lying to yourself about Jorginho being a playmaker and bringing out of context quotes at odds with reality, that's why I said you add little of substance to a conversation except quotes and hyperbole. Which playmaker drops 30 passes a game against tough opposition and barely above 50 against mid opposition. Playmakers drop 80-100 passes per game. These are the stats of a bus parker, not a playmaker.

donjazet:
As to your point Ibime, jorginho is infact press resistant. You keep repeating this lie over and over again. He does make good half-turns to evade pressure or uses short passes to evade the press.
He's also very good at giving accurate long passes and has a good eye for the pass.
Just try to watch him with an unbiased mind.

Also, I implore you to read this article below, it might help in better understanding jorginho's strength and what he brings the team.

If he is press resistant, he won't be dropping 30 passes a game against good opposition, hiding behind players like he does when game is tough and passing belle-face back to where it came from.

You can't be press resistant and dropping 30 passes, simple.

donjazet:
I thought we just spoke about this? insulting one's intelligence while making your point. Hmm.

It really is not. That's not an insult. Most of the leprous fingers here think they are cerebral in their analysis but they are simply grounds we covered 15 years ago. The whole German style of football created by Ragnick and adopted by Klopp and most modern managers determines how modern football is played and they know that in order to play an attacking game, you need pace and physicality all over the pitch, it's not by claiming high IQ while being slow. The modern footballer is fast and intelligent at the same time. Intelligent slow coach even like Coutinho is dying out.

donjazet:
Jorginho is indeed slow, [a common trait for players of his role], busquet, mascherano, rodri, modric, pirlo, Xabi alonso etc.

This is the sort of take that sounds intelligent but really is not.

You are are harking back to a bygone era of football where Malouda and co sit back and let deep lying playmakers have the field without challenge. All the players above suffered under the transition to the high press of modern football from 2013 to 2015. We saw Barcelona whitewashed severally by Bayern and Xabi Alonso whitewashed by high press of Real and Barca. Busquet struggles in modern football should be proof enough that facing Salah, Mane, Son, Coman, Sane running down on you at full speed is different from Xavi having all the time in the world in 2010 as Malouda and co sit behind their halfway line.

Modric is very fast for a CM even till his old age, and was bursting past players with speed even at the last Euros. He played leftwing at Spurs to show you how quick he is, besides he is not the primary DM. Hopeful Landlord set you straight below.

Xabi Alonso struggled under high press and led Bayern to many disgraces in the Pep years at Bayern.

Pirlo always struggled with it and was whitewashed by Barca and Spain regularly in uncompetitive scorelines.

Rodri has been a massive downgrade on Fernandinho who had that team at a natural level of scoring 98, 99 points a season.

Busquet has been a basket in modern football, along with DeJong.

Successful DMs of the last years are mostly Fabinho and Casemiro. If a snail DM like Jorginho won anything, it's only by parking bus which is the antithesis of what you pick such a player for.

For any snail DM to be worth it in modern football, you at least need the press resistance and control of Xavi and the long ball vision of Pirlo to compensate for how open you leave your team to rapid wingplay of modern era. Or you can simply park bus like Jogginghoe, drop 30 passes for the game, and forego any pretences to being a playmaker.

hopefulLandlord:
LMao! Luka Modric and "slow" in the same sentence. Modric might not be the fastest real Madrid player but he's the fastest among the trio that plays midfield for real Madrid. one minute he's setting up attacks the next minute he's chasing opposition players back in his eighteen yard box. Slow is Kroos

If Jeff Bezos ex-wife is looking for househusband, every man in Nigeria will apply, even Buhari

donjazet:
Now let's talk iniesta, one of the finest midfielders of his generation who for the past 10 years plus you have consistently berated. Iniesta, also a legend in the game. Have you come around to him?
Are you still dug iinto your position of him being overrated?

Let Iniesta bring his stats to any other team where others are not providing the match-winning difference and we will see how far he gets in football.

Iniesta was neither the creator, scorer nor the midfield controller and the stats bare that out. I am more likely to give credit to the controller (Xavi, Alonso), the creator (Messi, Alves) and the scorers (numerous) before giving credit to Iniesta.

Iniesta is the only AM that will go one calendar year in the league without goal or assist with no questions asked. He was a great player, just carried along to titles by match-winners.

donjazet:
You are not telling the truth. Deep into 2011, you were against Drogba. Maybe later I'll dig into it for people to see how you use to castigate him. Then you mostly called him DD. anyways even apart from that, till today, anytime any comparison is made between Drogba and anybody, you will still rush to discredit Drogba. The negative bias is there to see.

As for the accusations of being emotional. . It's clear that you are the one that has been very emotional on this issue. Once you see jorginho's name anywhere, you rush to start criticizing him. It's fair to say you're obsessed over this issue. Look at today, I praised and acknowledged his match winning role for us yesterday and posted excerpts from twitter, lacing it with the poll we had here and you rushed to counter it.

As for personals, you've twice insulted me personally saying I know absolutely nothing and did "my head is vacant". I have called you arrogant because of this precise fact. You always insult people's intelligence when arguing with them. But even at that, I don't even mean it personally. This is the singular issue we are miles apart on, we agree on almost everything else, from social issues, to political issues, to economic issues to financial issues where I actually actively invest in your tips on the crypto page. We are very cool bro. Don't take anything personally. I certainly don't.

All good bro, but you are lying about DD

From April 2009 precisely, I became an unquestionable Drogba fanatic, and that was the day of our FA Cup semifinal against Arsenal. Any criticism you see after that can only be in the context of an individual match.

That doesn't mean I have hated Drogba all through. I was a fan of his 2005 to 2006 even though I was aesthetically unpleased with his first touch, he was a one man pressing machine, and that was when Football was transitioning to one striker formation and nobody could provide that target point like him. In 2007, he scored lots of goals but started becoming lazy to press anywhere like he did in 2005-2006. In 2008 and 2009, he was not pressing, he was unfit most of those seasons, his bad touch returned and not scoring either. Plus he was campaigning to leave Chelsea. That's when I unleashed on him.

We like to view our heros with rose tinted spectacles. It is only those with lived and detailed experience that can give you the intricate details. I have long memory and hold long term accountability for players. Players like Azpi, Lampard, Kante, Lewandowski, Messi, Ronaldo are players you pay salary and guarantee to get your money's worth every season. Others like Drogba took many seasons off, despite how you want to romanticise him now, however he has been an unqeustionable legend for me since 2009. Reason you don't see me speaking romantically about Diego Costa. Even though some romanticise about Diego now, I am more likely to remember he only played 1.5 good seasons and was shocking for the other 1.5, and I am neutral on him for that reason. Same with Fabregas who only played 1 good season, or half if you want to get technical. I am not a celebrate the moment type of person, I am one for full accountability and have a long memory. Some people's personality is all about celebrating the moment. Maybe Africa has too many of those personalities, that's why they easily forget the wrongs their leaders did to them and forego accountability.

Drogba is an unquestioned legend of mine, but don't question why someone will not be happy with him as of 2009 when he had only posted one good goalscoring season in 5 years. The numbers don't lie. Drogba took many seasons off.

donjazet:
When someone holds the position that iniesta and Drogba are average for 10 fucking_years. You know how stubborn the person is. It shows he's never ready to change opinions.
You've been on this thread for 15 years. Myself 10 years. Ibime's tricks are not new.

No matter how much you repeat a lie will never make it true. I have been a big supporter of Drogba since 2009. Why I wasn't before is encapsulated below and in his stats from 2008 and 2009. Maybe you were too busy to notice then but Drogba was out of shape for most of those two seasons and openly flirting with AC Milan and other clubs stating he would like to join them in newspapers. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

Ibime:
As for Lukaku, he is still on the comeback from a one month layoff. Playing 10 mins here and there. You can't expect a big body striker to be back in rhythm that quickly from a layoff. Most folks here aren't old enough to remember how long it took Drogba to look decent after injury layoff under Scolari, talkless of Lukaku playing 10 mins here and there. Scolari season, Drogba hit 5 goals in 24 matches, his belly was protruding, his touch was semi-professional and his movement was dire. It took till April for Drogba to start looking sharp again. I'm sure Lukaku will be scoring again shortly

As for Iniesta, he is never an average player. He is a carry along though. If other AMs decide to contribute to winning games at the same rate at him, their teams will never be successful.

This will be the umpteenth time you will go on unrelated commentary on personality. I would advise you keep your emotions in check and focus on the discussion at hand.

Kante with RLC will be just fine as long as RLC sits. He can sit and let Kante do all the work and use fake stats to claim importance like Jorginho does

Exonerate1:
Over 4 seasons now and it's still the same shiit. Don't the club know we need a new specialist?

First year Sarri, 2nd year transfer ban, 3rd year Lampard wanted Rice and Havertz was prioritised, this year Tuchel has targetted Tchouameni but Lukaku was prioritised.

Chelsea have too many players. We have to ship many before buying. We deal with deadwoods one at time.

donjazet:
Of course, that arrogance rears its head again. Because someone doesn't agree to your point of view, he is a mumu. Because somehow you've managed to convince yourself that you know more than other fans. There's a word for that you know.

You better face front Captain save-a-nigga.

A mumu who's said in the last 24 hours that he wants to pair DeJong with Jorginho, that 3 centrebacks is because they can't survive without midfield protection (who is supposed to be providing?), now claiming Gallagher would be a great pivot player. I just have to call out his irritating foolishness.

Almajirihunter:
Ok

As long as it's not sold into. Check the whale distribution before committing. That whale distribution was so poor that the $100k buy they are planning may just be eaten by a whale. I don't know if the whales are still there in Shak

thorrvik55:
Gallagher is not a CM or DM.. His best position is higher up the pitch or the third midfielder in a 4-3-3

That guy no sabi ball, just capping nonsense

Gallagher, Mount, Barkley and RLC belong to the same group of AMs or a 3 man midfield at best

Jogginghoe, the only DM that either needs 3 centre backs behind him (Chelsea) or 2 DMs infront of him (Italy)

And these leprous fingers have nerve to call RLC a luxury player. What's more luxury than that?

Capaldi:
Now I understand Tuchel reluctance to move from a back 3. This past few games have made it clear. Each and every single defender we have are mad including Mendy. Without the Midfield protection they will all be exposed badly.

Talk about turning logic on his head.

Who is supposed to provide the midfield protection to the defence? The three defenders is there exactly because Jogginghoe is incapable of providing midfield protection, so they use community defence to cover themselves.

This guy is a big mumu. Someone who just stated DeJong and Jorginho will work, yet DeJong and Busquet who utterly dominated Jorginho in Euros doesn't work.

Capaldi:
Loftus Cheek is the definition of a luxury and useless player who likes doing meaningless fancy things. This fool suffocated the hell out of Jorginho yesterday. Never tracking back, always out of position, lazy etc

Not according to the useless stats used to hail Jorginho.

When it's time for Jorginho to play with a normal midfielder less energetic than Kante and Kova, it's time for Jorginho to do more work, he can't. The below shows us RLC was not completely lazy. It's the lazy man Jorginho who is used to being covered by uber energetic players who couldn't provide a bit more

Almajirihunter:
Hello Ibime/Ibeme seems there’s a plan of a pump on the Shak group, what do you think

I'm not following. I'll check it out

User09:
In what world is a combo of Kante-Kovacic a thing? Has no one been paying attention to this Chelsea team?

2 drifters in the middle of the pitch. I can't believe this.

Y'all will just say anything to deny Jorginho of his attributes. Good thing, those that matter don't see these things you see

That's the only reason Jogginghoe still has a place in the team. The minute we buy a specialist, that belle-face joggers days are over.

Both Kante and Kovacic do their CM role twice as good as Jogginghoe does his DM role.

The minute Kante and Kova are out the team, we can see how much of the upward pressure and work they are carrying for the jogger.

2/3rd of respondents still want Jorginho out.

Never seen a Ballon D'or contender so despised by his own fans

basilico:
Worst thing leftists believe this load of crap.
Leftists believe a lot of lies.
Im perpetually against leftists if you never noticed and their re.tarded policies. Stuff like climate change, gender identities, social justice extremes and so on. Everything leftist.

Man called you out on worhipping a serial divorcee while simultaneously railing against marriage breakdown, you started oscillating from pillar to post.

Why do you bother installing solar roof panel if you don't believe in climate change. Anyway, I'm with you, I couldn't give a shit about climate change, but you won't see me installing solar panel.