Ijawkid's Posts
Nairaland Forum › Ijawkid's Profile › Ijawkid's Posts
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (of 199 pages)
 Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:37am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: I kept Questions for you to answer and you are coming back with the creation translation thing... Let us put it aside ok... answer the questions so we can move on... you have to answer those questions.I just answered your jejune questions... and please don't shy away from bara,the word you love so much...the word which you thought meant just one thing and isn't a word that contexts determines.... I hope you learned a thing or two from the exposition... Just not long ago you were yapping that qanah can never mean creation in a creation subject... Now look at bara up there..... Thank you... And this might be my last post.... It is obvious I have been wasting so much time trying to prove a simple truth that is glaring..... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:33am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: You are showing frustration because i dont agree with your arianism... you can call me mumu if it removes some of them i dont mind but it wont translate your argument to truth...And as you are daft you still can't differentiate between wisdom which is created in proverbs and Gods inherent wisdom...until you do that then your eyes would be clear.... What I am trying to help you see is that the wisdom in proverbs is created and so can't be Gods inherent wisdom.... Don't be stiff... benalvino: GloryThe bolded encapsulates all that I have been trying to drive into your head.... Do you see how you unknowingly defined what it means when a created being by God is termed as his attribute??.... You said through man Gods glory can be seen....perfect!!!!.....this is exactly what it means when Jesus is said to be the wisdom of God.....he isn't Gods inherent or intrinsic wisdom but a vendor through which Gods inherent wisdom is reflected and manifested.... Man is said to be the glory of God 1 corinthians 11:7 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and [b]glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. The point is clear.....we can be called Gods attributes does not mean we are Gods inherent attributes.... That is why I asked you.. Since man is the glory of God just as Jesus is wisdom of God,was there ever a time God was without his glory before he created man(which is his glory)??.... I am presenting your own case to you... I want you to stop thinking of wisdom in proverbs 8:22 as Gods inherent wisdom.... benalvino: Now you see how you are trying hard? the power of God is who's power? is it the man that is the power or it is the power the man displays that is of God? where is the source of that power? was the power created or it is eternally coming from God?What you should ask your olodo self is:: Was the man who is the power of God created??.... Remember Jesus is called the power of God...in your mind you were thinking how could God have been without his power if Jesus(the power of God) was created or how could he have been without wisdom until he created wisdom(which is Jesus,the wisdom of God)..... The examples I have coined is to teach you when to differentiate Gods inherent attributes from when Gods attributes are seen through his vendors which he created... Gods inherent wisdom and power and glory which he used in creation is different from the wisdom,power and glory we have considered that were created..... Gbam!!!!.... benalvino: you have to answer this question... through Jesus who is the wisdom of God he found the heaven and earth... so if you are saying Jesus is an angel does this contradicts Isa 40:13 and many other verse that says when God was making the earth no one was there beside him? you see the problem you are facing! you have to clear this out.And from scriptures you have seen that his son was with him when creation of the world was taking place... And I have told you a million times that creation is attributed solely to the Father because it is from him(source) that all things came into existence..... God created Jesus and every other thing,even though he used his son as his vendor in creation.... John 17:5 and proverbs 8:29-31 shows that Jesus was beside God before the world was created.... benalvino: Why don't you ask other bible you like why they didn't use possess?Why should I ask them??....when they rightly rendered qanah contextually to mean create by virtue of the fact that creation is the subject..... Ask the renderings that adopted possess in a creation scenario.. benalvino: so which of the wisdom God create? wisdom 2 or wisdom 1.1? Wisdom is wisdom and the source is God...God created his firstborn son that is termed wisdom of God.... Proverbs have clearly shown the wisdom under consideration had a beginning... So it is definitly not Gods inherent wisdom... benalvino: your Organization teaches his wisdom is seen in his creations... even is power... Now you are here saying he created wisdom... even them just because of the Arianism going on you want Jesus you be created... Go cannot create his attribute... i dont buy the fact you are saying this wisdom he created is not his attribute then why is it called his wisdom does he have 2 different wisdom? You have to answer this then we can go on.God cannot create his attribute,but he created man which is his attribute...right or wrong??..... You have to grow past this level you are if not you would remain stagnant.... benalvino: the above contradicts God's words... God says during creation the as another person was not there... i already provided verses for that which he hasn't answered so the question is still hunting him... the bible also ask is it not One God that created us?And 1 corinthians 8:6,colossians 1:15-16.proverbs 8:29-31 and john 17:5 shows there was somebody.... His son that was created by the Father,that was the Fathers vendor,that was beside the Father..... The creator of all is whom all glory goes to and so the Father remains the one creator who created the son and all of us........ We are all vendors and vessels of God... He remains one and has no equal.... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:00am On Jul 08, 2013 |
@benalvino...I just had to make this little exposition on the hebrew word BARA to let you understand how one word can differ or mean different things depending on the topic under consideration or context.... Bara does not mean and only mean to create or make,just as qanah does not only mean to possess and aquire as we all have seen from the various definitions of the hebrew word... BARA also means to cut down,to assemble,to fill up,to dispatch.....these are meanings that differ greatly from create,but all are BARA.... Now see the scriptures below for further understanding... Josh 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down ( bara) for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee. Josh 17:18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down ( bara): and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong. Psalm 51: 10 Create (bara) in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created ( bara) shall praise the Lord. Isa 65: 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create ( bara): for, behold, I create (bara) Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Ezek 23: 47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch ( bara) them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire. Do you see the various usage of this same hebrew word bara??...... Infact the use of create for bara is only on contextual basis.... Because if you decide to put create for everywhere bara is found the scriptures would be rendered useless.... We cannot say as seen in joshua Josh 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and create ( bara) for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee. This verse won't make sense if we use create as I have used it...rather it would make sense when an alternative meaning of bara which is cut down is used....also I can't go to genesis 1:1 and say in the beginning God cut down or God dispatched the heavens and the earth... Context my bro..... Remember this lil exposition is for the justification of the rendering of qanah as create or form when creation is in view..... Bara which you think is an exclusive word for create has been totally cleared... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 2:10am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: wisdom is referred to Jesus... the power of God is referred to Jesus...Whose rendering??..... Am I using the NWT??..... Stop this baby prangs and get down to business........ Wisdom is personified as woman and Jesus is that woman since your brain has decided not to function well.... Wisdom is in the feminine there in 1 corinthians 1:24 and colossians 2:3...... Infact paul left it feminine to show people like you that wisdom being feminine does not make it a woman..... I gave you an example even on some other thread if not this same thread of how Jesus being refered to as the rock foundation of the church was in the feminine form.....does that make Jesus a woman??.... We all know Jesus isn't a woman so your obsession with wisdom been rendered in the feminine way is null and void..... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 2:00am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: Dude the fact remains that wisdom is an attribute of God he possessed okay... you cannot say he created his own attribute... honestly this is modern day Arianism... the earth was created through God's wisdom and understanding you cant say he created this... God has always exist therefore all his attributes too...I feel like calling you a mumu.... I give you this example so that you digest it..... Man is call the glory of God...God has his own inherent glory as his attribute.... Since man is the glory of God and God created man,was there a time when God never had his glory with him??... Please answer.... I can see that even with clear scriptures you are still stiff necked.... the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 is not Gods inhernet wisdom which has always existed...the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 was created,was birthed...it had a beginning...and so does not qualify as Gods inherent wisdom....do you need me to use cane to teach you this??.... And my job here is to establish that this wisdom under consideration was created.... benalvino: Question for you...I just gave a clear example of one of Gods attribute....his GLORY.... Was there ever a time God was without his glory before he created man who is his glory??... I am disaapointed in you big time.... Till this moment you can't distinguish between Gods inherent attributes and when a creation of his is termed his attribute to describe how such one acts with Gods attribute...... I shake my head.... I even quoted an example from acts where a man who performed powerful works was called the power of God,an attribute of God.. Wisdom which is Jesus was created,was formed,was born before ever the world was born or formed ..... Wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 does not in anyway signify Gods inherent wisdom.... And you tend to forget that this wisdom just like Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation,the first fruit of Gods works.... And you say the NWT is from the arius controversy.....what about the 10's of trinitarians renderings I have provided..are they also from the arius controversy??.... And your think your own rendering is not from the famous nicean wahala...the fraud that has landed christianity in the present pagan state it is.... benalvino: Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him...And again you are behaving childish... Qanah(create) as well as CHUWL(born,made) are juxataposed together in describing this wisdom all to drive home the point that it was infact created,birthed,formed just as the earth,the mountains etc were created too..... Now let me expose your ignorance once more... Can you please ask the KJV why they didn't use REDEEM in place of possess for qanah in proverbs 8:22??..... Redeem is also a word that refers to qanah....can redeem fit into that verse and make any sense??...let us say the LORD redeemed me(wisdom) as the beginning of his way...does it make sense??.... The context in proverbs 8:22-31 is strictly under creation....so qanah as referenced alongside the greek septuagint shows qanah to mean create,which further agrees with the parallel CHUWL which connotes giving birth,born,form, etc.... And once again it is not Gods inherent wisdom that was created... Get this point into your thick trinitarian skull... benalvino: sorry but qanah is never used for creating... you have seen all the scriptures. Bara is used for creating.And qanah is used effectively to denote create or form when creation is under consideration... You are the liar here who is insinuating that only bara is used for create or for words coined from create... You are the deciever here.... benalvino: didnt you see posses there? or acquire or get? why focus on create? when the bible is talking about creating it uses bara. and the context in proverbs 8 shows that God already have wisdom... simple as that... you call KJV fraud cause it did not support what you wanted... lol if we talk about NWT you will say am attacking your religion...Why focus on possess in a discussion that is talking about creation??...ask your dubious self.... 1 corinthians 1:24 has shown this wisdom personified isn't Gods inherent wisdom but his son.....and this Jesus had a beginning as the beginning of Gods creation... I call KJV a fraud for forwarding the latin vulgate meaning into a creation discussion... Hope u get the gist??... benalvino: who told you in Proverbs 8 it is creation of wisdom rather possess? or maybe get? again by your context God didnt have wisdom so he created wisdomOnce again you show case your foolishness.... Is the scripture you put up there linked with creation??.... Context my brother......qanah can't be rendered create of form when the context isn't about creation...can't you grow some sense??..... Remember on the other thread I provided the exact same greek rendering,a parallel for the hebrew qanah on satan on how he was created??..... You dodget it!!!....  And please kindly tell me the time God was without his glory before he created man.... benalvino: again like i said using qanah as creator is correct but possess is also correct concerning the context... and in proverbs 8 possess is more accurate... God has always been with wisdom Period...You see your dubious self.... Why can't create be correct for proverbs 8:22 which is discussing about creation??.... So in genesis 14:19,22 you clearly saw that qanah strictly infered creator...infact the use of possessor in those verses is ludicrous... God made the heavens and earth and so fittingly is called a creator rather than a possessor.... benalvino: it is the source of your beliefs... you believe everything that is in it.And how have I debated my stance with the NWT in mind??....you have only assumed what is sweet to your head.... The NWT has never been my authority here on nairaland... And first fruit is popping out to show you what the meaning of wisdom in proverbs 8:22 and Jesus in revelations 3:14 being the beginning of Gods work or creation means??.... I know you have been very slow to grasp this glaring point.... you have so many facts in front of you.... 1..The wisdom in question was formed (qanah) 2..It is the beginning of Gods work(creation) ... 3..It was born,birthed,brought forth as of with labour pains just as the mountains,seas and the world which was juxtaposed with it were..., You can't run away from these points.... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:52pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
@benalvino....I missed this your comment which I'm going to put in bold... "i will show more which i have done before in how they try to avoid the personification of wisdom as a woman" Nobody avoided anything.....wisdom has always been presented as feminine consistently....... Paul taught, “Christ ... the Wisdom of God,” and, “hidden in Christ are all the treasures of wisdom [Greek = sophias].” (1 Corinthians 1:24; 2:7; Colossians 2:3) In Proverbs 8 the word for Wisdom is sophia (feminine) and this is the same word Paul used in the texts above, all feminine. You simply have no case here as to wisdom been refered to in the feminine sense.... Because right there in 1 corinthians 1:24 and colossians 2:3 wisdom which is Jesus is also feminine.... Nigeria been refered to as a "she"(feminine) does not make nigeria a woman.... I think you would have to grow some sense as regards this feminine ish.... And again I would want to sound this notice:::.... Don't bring the NWT or yap about the NWT as we discuss..... I see it as a cheap tactic you have employed to run away from clear truths when presented.... The next time you bring in the NWT even when I don't use it on this forum to make and support my points I would desist from this discussion.... Maybe I would have to create a new username to debate with you,so that you don't think you're arguing with a JW..... It is simply because you know I'm a JW that is why instead of going into real research work and use other renderings you rather sit back and say the NWT this and that .... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 10:52pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: @benalvinoIs benalvino actually running away from the oneness explicitly shown in these verses below and chasing marraige oneness and thereby calling us brides of Christ??...... John 17:20-23 English Standard Version (ESV) 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Is benalvino running away from Jesus' clear definition of oneness in these verses??........ ..... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Frosbel Is Highly Questionable by ijawkid(m): 10:12pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
bizmahn: Your target is not people like me.You decieve the unstable & undiscerning with your errors.They are your targets.Much like the drummer folks drumming for you now.I know your next strategy is to drag me to arguements which won't work for I may not reply you beyond this except I decide otherwise.LK.11:53,54And who said you are a stable??..... You need persons like frosbel to help you to be stable..... If you can believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in a Godhead(nothing of this sort nor does the expression exist in the scriptures but it is of mens tradition) then you need somebody to re-allign your thoughts to the truth....... You see why frosbel said Jesus is not tradition??......... 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:25pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
@benalvino...I noticed you ignored this parallel greek word from the greek septuagint for qanah when considered under creation... This below is what I wrote and you ignored it..... The Hebrew word which KJV translates as possess is QA-NA’NI [ = produced me; Strong's Exhaustive Concordance # 7069, erect, create ]. The Greek EKTISEN ME means “created me.” And, the Latin is POSSESDIT ME meaning “possessed me.” It is clear the KJV and others have followed Jerome’s 4th Century Latin Vulgate.. It is obvious which rendering the KJV has adopted.... The latin vulgate is what is causing this wahala.... If you had noticed....the many renderings that rendered qanah as create,form,constitute,made all abandoned the latin vulgate...... I have told you times without number...... You are having an obsession with the KJV,while you condemn the NWT which I have never quoted on this site,neither am I basing my retorts on it.... The NWT are not the only ones in this scene..... You better stop this your bible this ,your bible that...it is making you sound like a kid that can't air his opinions without harping on the NWT........ Let us debate devoid of the mention of the NWT,.....because I am not using it in this discussion,neither would I use it in other discussions to come.......... Please look up again at the greek parallel and see that the KJV is the one that was bias from the on set to have rendered qanah to mean another thing under a creation context.... Thank you!!!!...... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:16pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
benalvino: Sorry but this is total crap... you guys are the modern day arians and you know the controversy they bring concerning proverbs 8:22 and this is where your doctrine today is coming from...Now is it only the JW's who agrees that create should be used for proverbs 8:22??....do you see why the truth in that verse has been so hard for you to gulp??...because you in your mind you are arguing with a JW;s..... The avalanche of trinitarian translations that have been presented other than the NWT shows that wisdom was created,produced,constituted(quanah).... And my problem with you now is that because the word "bara" isn't used so quanah cannot be rendered produced,formed,created in a creation context...and I do know you know quanah can be rendered as create when creation is in question...right or wrong??... benalvino: INCONSISTENCIESSometimes I wonder if I am arguing with a child...how can quanah be rendered create in this contexts when creation is not being discussed or when creation is not the subject under consideration??...... Are you thinking with your brains or with your computer  .....Is proverbs 8:22-31 talking about aquiring wisdom or the fact that wisdom was the beginning of Gods work(creation) and also juxtaposed alongside,the mountains,seas and fountains that were created or rather brought forth just as wisdom was??... Are the scriptures you quoted there talking about creation??.... Don't be daft my freind.... You yourself have agreed that quanah does have different meanings...the context determines the meaning.... When it deals with creation or pro-creation it does portend creation and giving birth,begeting,bringing a life into existense..... Please don't expose your foolishness... There are no inconsistencies,it is your love for fables that is confusing you.... benalvino: FURTHER EXAMINATIONBefore eve concieved and gave birth to cain,had cain always existed ...doesn't quanah in this context connote bringing forth a life into existence that wasn't existing before??......Now I see how fraudulent you have become...did it have to get to this point for you to open you mouth to say never was qanah used in reference to creation or the bringing forth of a life or a thing into existence ?Please read the KJV old testament lexicon to please understand that you have resorted to cheap dodging tactics... The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon Strong's Number: 07069 Original Word Word Origin hnq a primitive root Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Qanah TWOT - 2039 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech kaw-naw' Verb Definition to get, acquire, create, buy, possess (Qal) to get, acquire, obtain 1a of God originating, creating, redeeming His people 1a possessor 1a of Eve acquiring 1a of acquiring knowledge, wisdom to buy (Niphal) to be bought (Hiphil) to cause to possess From the above consideration of the word qanah isn't context needed to knwo when this word can be applied appropriately ...How can I be talking about creation and then assume the word qanah to mean possess or acquire??.....would that not be madness ....The KJV infact are the frauds here for rendering qanah to mean something else when the subject under consideration is about CREATION benalvino: The term "bara' " is ALWAYS used in reference of "creating." Example, Genesis 1:1, 'In the beginning God created [bara'] the heavens and the earth.' Another example is Genesis 1:27, 'God created [bara'] man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.'And I have no problem with the word "bara"...what I have a problem is with you for not seeing that qanah when used under the purview of creation strictly means creation,formed,produced.....smh!!!..... and psalm 74:2 contextually deserves qanah to be rendered as aquire....NO??... Is creation the topic in psalms 74:2??....what is wrong with you??.. benalvino: Likewise, Genesis 14:19 reads as, 'He blessed him and said, 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High, POSSESSOR [qanah] of heaven and earth;' Cross reference with Genesis 14:22, "Abram said to the king of Sodom, 'I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth,'" and Psalm 24:1, 'The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it (NWT To Jehovah [qanah]belong the earth and that which fills it,+ The productive land* and those dwelling in it).Let me quote this scripture from other renderings... New International Version (©2011) and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. New Living Translation (©2007) Melchizedek blessed Abram with this blessing: "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. The same goes for genesis 14:22 Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand in an oath to Yahweh, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, International Standard Version (©2012) But Abram answered the king of Sodom, "I have made an oath to the LORD God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, NET Bible (©2006) But Abram replied to the king of Sodom, "I raise my hand to the LORD, the Most High God, Creator of heaven and earth, and vow Please......isn't the use of creator for qanah the most appropriate in that verse .....the context there is strictly on God being the creator and not just a possessor as the KJV would render it.....or would you say God did not create the earth but rather just possessed it??....Psalm 24:1 New International Version (©2011) Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; New Living Translation (©2007) A psalm of David. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it. The world and all its people belong to him. Please how did you think qanah should have been rendered in this verse??.... It seems maybe english has now become your problem... Should the NWT or the renderings I have evoked read ::..To Jehovah created the earth?? :: or the earth is the created??... Benalvino have you become this daft??..... The KJV has really caused so much problems to people like you... Your problem is you have become a KJV onlyist that you can't see beyond your nose..... Please read the renderings of genesis 14:19,22 and see that creator/create is what qanah connotes when creation is involved.... The KJV has become an opium to you.... benalvino: as you can see... the work of arius is still alive today... from your bible you have seen the inconsistencies and i will show more which i have done before in how they try to avoid the personification of wisdom as a woman... they tried to hide it... If you are sincere you wont have anything to hide or change the truth if you know you are saying the truth but i will show you how you guys tampered with proverbs to make it fit your doctrines...As we can all see it is you who have been deluded by the KJV's misuse of qanah even when it is strictly talking about creation...to the extent that the KJV had to refer to GOD as a possesor and not a creator.... U don see am finish??.... My problem is why are bringing the NWT into this discussion?? Am I using it in this discussion?? It seems the best way you can argue is when you put the NWT in front of you...abi??... All the renderings I have used to debunk you none is the NWT...they are all trinitarian translations.... Why are you so fixated with the NwT??....the bible translation been collect something from you ....See proverbs 8:22 from the New Jerusalem bible which is not the NWT.... Please read....this rendering even went ahead to explain all that I have been trying to help you grasp... 22..Yahweh created(qanah) me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Isn't this rendering sweet to the ears??... Take note of this words/expression that connotes creation,one being formed,one having a begiining,one being created in all its meanings... 1..Created.... 2..First fruits(which is beginning of)... Do you see it??.. Do you see the points I have been trying to force into your konkon head??.... benalvino: Next post will be from colossians you linking to this verse... i dont want this to be too long.I dey wait for you... Meanwhile you haven't challenged the hebrew word CHUWL which means birthed,beget,brought forth,formed,born with respect to creation..... Address that before you feel too much about your lame exposition... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 8:07pm On Jul 06, 2013 |
benalvino: if you want me to reply this you will have to go to my thread i opened about creation of Jesus... This thread is for something else... From what i have seen you will only take your bias.Let us end it here...it has already started....let us end it... I just updated another bomb shell... 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 8:06pm On Jul 06, 2013 |
Ezekiel 28:13-15 13 Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; 14 I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, 15 Till iniquity was found in you. @benalvino... The same word, created, used in Proverbs 8:22 for wisdom is used (ekisthes) of the Devil. Maybe you can tell me if the devil was possessed too,,,.... I am here to chisel proverbs 8:22-31 into your brain until you concede... Running around the word possessed when we are talking about creation is not going to help you..... Another word related to this in Proverbs and Ezekiel is that found at Colossians 1:15 where Christ is called, “the firstborn of all creation [= ktiseos].” And, again the beloved John uses the word at Revelation 3:14, “the beginning of the creation [= ktiseos] of The God.” These later texts are in complete agreement with Proverbs 8:22, that “Christ [as the] ... the Wisdom of God” was created as the very first or beginning of God’s works. You can as well substitute the word possess for all this linked words that are in congruence with wisdom being created and not just merely possessed... 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 7:49pm On Jul 06, 2013 |
benalvino: i dont want to go through this again. you carefully selected the translations that tries to support you. see other translationsThe Hebrew word which KJV translates as possess is QA-NA’NI [ = produced me; Strong's Exhaustive Concordance # 7069, erect, create ]. The Greek EKTISEN ME means “created me.” And, the Latin is POSSESDIT ME meaning “possessed me.” It is clear the KJV and others have followed Jerome’s 4th Century Latin Vulgate.. It is obvious which rendering the KJV has adopted... Now take a look at how the new Jerusalem bible puts it...it perfects all what I have been trying to tell you..... NJB 22.Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Are you seeing a very sincere tight rendering of that verse..remember what I told you about being the beginning of someone elses work??.... You see the expression ""first fruits"" which the NJB uses......GBAM!!!!!....it hits the nail on the head...... Even the rendering possessed shows the wisdom under consideration was created,had a beginning.... benalvino: BROUGHT(bring) has many mean... to cause something to exist or occur... to come with... when i say she brought forth her car am not saying she created car or gave birth to her car.Now I can see the fraud you are... Proverbs talks about creation and the verse and example you bring talks about what??...now let us go to the hebrew word used that was rendered brought forth by the Kjv and rendered made,formed,born by other translations..... Let me expose you more and make you abandon the trinity.... The Hebrew word rendered brought forth is CHUWL [Strong's Exhaustive Concordance # 2342, twist, whirl, bear, bring forth, be in pain] and is rendered, “I travailed” by IB. That is, Wisdom by its creation or birth experienced “birth-pangs.” The Greek LXX is GENNA ME [birthed me]. We have considered the original word...and it has everything to do with one being born,formed,created,set up etc..... It is this same word that was used by the KJV in psalms 90:2 when it said the waters and mountains were brought forth... Please read... Psalm 90:2 King James Version (KJV) 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Please do you see how the word CHUWL was used in this verse as regards creation??.....it uses brought forth and formed to show the mountains and the earth were created,had a beginning.... Remember our discussion is on creation and not on people who are going to court...don't be a fraud.... This is why the other translations use born,formed...they all signify creation.... Do you understand ......I have gone to the root word used,both hebrew and greek so you have no where to run to.... benalvino: Proverbs 3:19Sorry bro...the hebrew words up there I have brought debunks your exegesis which is streamlined towards the trinity.... Please look up the hebrew/greek words used for brought forth...it ends your case..... Wisdom was created as the first of Gods work.... benalvino: The Hebrew word that commonly means "create" (bara') is not used in verse 22; rather the word is qanah, which occurs eighty-four times in the Old Testament and almost always means "to get, acquire." like you post bibles that supports your point many others in fact majority supports mine which is not the case though: "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his way NABS" (similarly KJV). (Note this sense of the word in Gen. 39:1; Ex. 21:2; Prov. 4:5,7; 23:23; Eccl. 2:7; Isa. 1:3 ["owner"].) This is a legitimate sense and, if wisdom is understood as a real person, would mean only that God the Father began to direct and make use of the powerful creative work of God the Son at the time creation began: the Father summoned the Son to work with him in the activity of creation. The expression "brought forth" in verses 24 and 25 is a different term but could carry a similar meaning: the Father began to direct and make use of the powerful creative work of the Son in the creation of the universe.Please why didn't you find the hebrew word that was rendered brought forth??.....I have helped you done that and it collapses all your efforts to block this glaring truth..... And for your info the word qanah when used with respect to creation or pro-creation strictly means creation and surely portends the beginning of a life or something..... Please read up how wisdom was born and formed... Your are trying to refute 2 clear truths....e go hook you for throat...it has already.... And please try and find out wether bara had to be used in psalms 90:2 to debunk your reasoning.... benalvino: One thing to note... from this verse you are using it says Jesus was at the side of God doing creation... But the bible says no one was at the side of God when he was doing creation... this is another problem for you... The bible says multiple times that it is One God that created us all... again bible says no one was beside God when he was creating... What does this mean?And now I know you've been daft through out this discussion... Let me expose you again... English Standard Version (©2001) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Has Jesus not exposed your ignorance??.... Jesus,who is wisdom in proverbs was with the Father before the world was made,formed,brought forth, and he was engaged after he himself was created first etc.... 1 corinthians 8:6 has shown Jesus' vendor role,along with proverbs but you want to run away...enjoy Jesus' words above.... Please read proverbs 8:23-25 NIV 23 at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, 24 when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, 25 before the hills, I was given birth Do you see how Jesus is actually this wisdom in question??... benalvino: In Proverbs 3:19 we find a similar reference to "wisdom" being part of Creation: "The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens." In this passage we find that not only was "wisdom" with the LORD in the beginning, but so too was UNDERSTANDING! In order to be consistent.Even after seeing that Jesus was confirmed as wisdom from the new testament..?? Who do you think wants to be going in circle with a fraudulent argument like this??... I have just shown you that Jesus was created as the beginning of Gods creation... Please read up the NJB and see what the beginning of means...I had used several examples to show you the truth but u refused it... All d examples I gave of reuben and the firstborns of isreal and egypt where the expression was used to signify firstfruit,you dodged them and then you come here talking about arguing in circles... benalvino: Isaiah 44:24And you are still in la la land..I knwo this truth is one that might be hard for you to gulp..it might take a little time,but just free yourself off the pagan trinity and get down with the truth.... Let me again make these salient clear points... See the parallels between wisdom in proverbs and Jesus....even though we have confirmed that Jesus is wisdom... See.... 1. Both are the first of God's works [Proverbs 8:22 = Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14]; 2. Both existed with God before the creation [Proverbs 8:23-29 = John 1:2, 3; 17:5; Colossians 1:15, 16]; 3. Both were involved in the creation [Proverbs 8:30 = John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6];..notice the word through for Jesus which shows his being Gods vendor... 4. Both have a love for humankind [Proverbs 8:31; John 3:16]; 5. Both are associated with Life [Proverbs 8:35 = John 1:1-4; 1 John 1:1-3]; 6. Christ is actually called "Wisdom" [1 Corinthians 1:24, 30; Matthew 23:34; Luke 11:49] Gbam!!!!!...... Keep playing steven wonder ....... I have given the firm meanings of the hebrew and greek words used for creation and brought forth.... I have shown all that needs to be shown that Jesus had a beginning...I have clearly and patently explained what Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means with verses and examples from the bible..... All you have done is run around possess and a false definition of brought forth.... I dey wait for you... I dey wait here to destroy your tricks... I still have more from where it came from... Let's go!!!.... 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Video Of Catholic Priest Mastubating In Front Of Congregation During Mass by ijawkid(m): 1:07pm On Jul 06, 2013 |
OP.....are you sure this video was not doctored and concocted??..... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 9:25am On Jul 06, 2013 |
benalvino: you failed to address Melchisedec... the beginning and end of life stop without mother nor father genealogy... you tried to say those stuff said about him is directed to his priesthood which is like saying you are talking to my hand and not me... Jesus is the high priest i know there cant be 2 high priest.And it didn't occur to you that Jesus' priesthood was in the manner of melchizedek....do you even know what it means when it is said Jesus' priesthood is in the manner of melchizedek??.... When moses said God would raise up a prophet like Him(moses),what did it mean??...... Are there 2 prophets??..... Or is moses an extra terrestial being?? benalvino: you have concluded that his priesthood cannot be traced through family tree... lol. again he has no beginning of and end of life... the bible should say he has no mother or father or genealogy if he really do. what you will do is, you will try to move us in circles.And those terms apply strictly to melchizedeks role as priest and not to his existence....... Can we trace melchizedek and Jesus' geneology as regards priesthood??......are they both from the tribe of LEVI??.. Answer please... benalvino: I didn't reject anything... Again you are saying same thing as me... the father Created through Jesus and without Jesus nothing was made... fact still remains... 2 persons took part in creation... again desika has should you this which you wont accept and you wont accept it now. NOTHING WAS MADE WITHOUT JESUS... It means the father and son took part in creation.When Jesus is refered to as wisdom and power of God what does it mean??.....you are the one here who needs serious classes.... What does it mean if Jesus is called wisdom of God??....does it mean Jesus is Gods intrinsic wisdom??...please grow some sense.... The last time we discussed this issue your views were as myopic as that of toddler.... Now let us see what it means when Jesus is refered to as an attribute of God.... Acts 8:10.. New Living Translation (©2007) Everyone, from the least to the greatest, often spoke of him as "the Great One--the Power of God." Now:::....how is it possible that this man,simon who performed powerful works is refered to as the power of God??.....what does it mean when one is refered to as an attribute of God?? Does is it mean the individual is literally Gods attribute and therefore inside of God??... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!...... Jesus was Gods wisdom and power in that through Jesus Gods power was made manifest and that Jesus exhibited Gods wisdom.... That is why Jesus is called the greater solomon...  Please grow up benalvino: that verse doesn't read created or produced... it reads "posses"Jesus was never called the beginning and end...that is where we would argue to death..... And the Father cannot be the beginning of Gods creation..... My problem is if you stick to your stiff necked stance,why can't you also call the Father the beginning of Gods creation??...why??..... And the greek word used is linked with Jesus dependent on or being part of some one elses creation.... Is Jesus the God of which he is the beginning of his(Gods) creation.?? I have shown you all definitions were this expression is used but you have rejected them....can you please produce a counter scripture that says otherwise??..... Can you provide a scripture that refutes the notion that the expression" beginning of" when linked to someone elses work does not include the individual as part of the work of whom he is the beginning of??....... Please scriptures... benalvino: See all the Definition you bring lol concerning wisdom...You dey make me vex.........possessed my foot... Let us see this renderings that didn't play wayo..... ...New International Version (©2011) "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; New Living Translation (©2007) "The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. International Standard Version (©2012) "The LORD made me as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced. NET Bible (©2006) The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) “Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.” The in the next 2 or 3 verses this WISDOM said he was formed,born,brought forth, New International Version (©2011) When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; New Living Translation (©2007) I was born before the oceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters. English Standard Version (©2001) When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. GNT 24 I was born before the oceans, when there were no springs of water. The next verses totally exposes the rendering of "possessed" used.... I am even sure it is you that is reading possessed to mean another thing...... This wisdom was born,brought forth,created,formed,made etc.... Think of all the words that represents creation is what was used on wisdom..... only a blind person whose case is worse than steven wonder would want to evade proverbs 8:22-30..... The book even provides a wonderful picture of how Jesus was beside God after he was created as a master workman,a craftsman,a labourer who has being taught by his God and Father....... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: NASA Finds Message From God On Mars by ijawkid(m): 8:06am On Jul 06, 2013 |
Oboy wey link to this information??...... 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: A Question For Jehovahs Witnesses And Others: Is Satan Divine? by ijawkid(m): 3:21am On Jul 06, 2013 |
benalvino: nope... when something is deformed it changes form... it may not be seen as the way it was... that deformed image of God is Adam's image... all the features we have today is from Adam... Adam had first class image from God... but he messed up an fall short in the Glory of God. no man is borne Holy except for Jesus... you may leave a holy life... but when you will become holy is when you partake in the divine nature... which is after Jesus comes back. the people who tries to live a holy life.Alvino just a scripture for you to ruminate on.... 1 corinthians 11:7 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. Please are we still not the image of GOD??...... I no wan argue too much regarding this issue...... I have told you times without number that both your definitions and mine are correct with the scriptures....I have gone further to tell you that 1 corinthians 15:45-50 deals more on how persons would have to be in the image of Christ to live immortal lives in heaven......... Adams sin ,I repeat adams sin in no way stops MAN from being the image of God...... The above verse crushes everything.... Thank you...... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 3:03am On Jul 06, 2013 |
Benjamin: Guys this is an example of how he never agrees with the bible...Those features are not in reference to melchizedeks existence...they are in reference to his priesthood......a beg apart from priesthood what else do we have to do with melchizedek??.... Tell me...please tell me......if not for Jesus serving as a priest do you think we would even be talking about melchizedek??..... The scriptures does not in anyway tell us that this man under consideration was super human or an angel who descended....melchizedek was existing here on earth as Gods priest....God aPpointed him not through any family tree,but appointed him straight away as his high priest,and in that manner was Jesus' priestly office attained..... Right there in hebrews 7 it is shown Jesus had a family tree....this is why I tell you those features of melchizedek has nothing to do with his existence but with his priestly office and how it was attained..... benalvino: For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;Now would reading down that chapter not solve all your problem??.......down that chapter explains all about melchizedeks being without a family tree with respect to his priestly office,,,,,,he isn't from the tribe of Levi neither was his office attained from aaron...... Didn't you read it??.......didn't you??..... My problem is the parallels are drawn with respect to priesthood alone..... Jesus would be fashioned in the manner of melchizedek as regards to priesthood and nothing more..... benalvino: sorry but bible teaches Jesus is a descendant of his father David.You even agree that Jesus had a family tree......we all know...... Nobody would come out and say Jesus didn't have a family tree....... so in what way was he in the manner of melchizedek??..... His priestly office.......gbam!!!!!!......it cannot be traced through a family tree....... Rather that office was attained from God himself....... You dey see the parallel??....... benalvino: Not only God did it. Jesus follow am... if you like say he created Jesus or not at the end there 2 did it. you can dance how ever you like but you will still settle that 2 person take part in creation.And all you have done is reject all of the scriptures as a whole....... The one creator from whom all things came has being established,and that is the Father...please read 1 corinthians 8:6 and see it clearly....... Jesus remains the vendor while The Father is the source from which Jesus himself was formed........ benalvino: when the bible says the Father is the beginning and end... we can assume that there was a time he was not existing then he became the beginning and he will have end abi?When the bible says the Father is the beginning and end,did it go any further to add any clause??....or maybe you want to add a clause abi??.......... Jesus was not just refered to as beginning and end,the scriptures spoil ona show well well by calling him the beginning of some one elses creation...... ......the beginning of Gods creation......Show spoilt!!!!!!!!........ Deep down in you you can't call the Father the beginning of Gods creation.....if you can please say so.....neither can you call the Father Gods firstborn........ Jesus remains Gods creation but the first of it........ You can't go around calling him chief of creation or leader when scriptural evidence shows otherwise..... benalvino: About proverbs according to how you translate it... there was a time God was without wisdom abi? there was a time God was not wise... so without wisdom where did he get the wisdom to create wisdom?And sorry sir its not how I translated it...its how the scriptures says it......... The wisdom in that verse is definitly not Gods intrinsic wisdom....this wisdom that proclaims that God created him as the beginning of his works was definitly Jesus..... Take not of the expression ""beginning of"" again.......... Don't delude yourself with your question as to wether God didn't have wisdom before he created wisdom...... That path of reasoning is one of the most foolish I have ever seen........ It is clear that wisdom in proverbs was created,brough forth,born,formed,produced,set up etc...... Your question would be like asking if God did not have glory before he created glory(man is the glory of God)........ The scriptures In the new testament even confirms who that wisdom is that was by Gods side after being created as a craftsman,labourer working alongside with God.......... I have been waiting for you to come up with a definition for brought forth but you ran away with full force from your other thread........that proverbs explains who Jesus is and how he came about...he had a beginning...only a blind man won't see that....... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 9:54pm On Jul 05, 2013 |
benalvino: anytime time you cant answer a question just admit... if you have to conclude its dumb... state why it is dumb.This is why the book of proverbs is there to clear the air..but behold you reject it and come back here to yap..... Jesus was pictured as a craftsman by Gods side.... Proverbs indeed gives a thrilling revelation of Jesus' role in creation.... Remember how he was brought forth(a word you said you know nothing about and was unwilling to learn)before the mountains and the earth was formed??..... For the basic fact that Jesus was created shows the Father remains the one creator.... Just as a contractor remains the one OGA even though he has employed a project manager to oversee his business and also doing all his biddings through that project manager... benalvino: you still didnt answer why he has no beginning of days and end...Melchizedek was a mortal and a man born of a woman...as real as abraham who met him...read genesis 14:17-20..and hebrews 7:4-10.....that is why you have to re-allign your thoughts on his being said of having no Father nor mother(without geneology).... Melchizedek definitly had parents...infact he also had an end to his physical life like every other human....he was human and not superhuman or an angel that fell from heaven... Romans 5:14 New International Version (©2011) Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. Melchizedek was as real a human just like me and you.... Now how and why is it said he has no family tree??... The scriptures do not give details about melchizedeks family lineage-his ancestors or any possible descendants.....that information is just not a matter of biblical record...from pauls standpoint and with the information he had on melchizedek he could rightly say melchizedek was without geneology...(Without a table of descent,or with no family tree)... The question now is in what was Jesus like melchizedek??... We all know Jesus' family line from the scriptures...both here earthly and heavenly....Jesus was born by mary and of the tribe of Judah with david as his fore-father... Now let us get the full sense of how Jesus would be like melchizedek in having no family tree.... It has nothing to do with Jesus' living or if he had a beginning or not...his being drawn alongside melchizedek has to do fully with his being a high priest....gbam!!!..... Jesus was not born in the tribe of levi,the tribe for priests in the nation of isreal...Jesus had not and did not become a priest of the most high God through human geneology...neither had melchizedek,who had not become a priest according to the law of a commandment depending upon the flesh ,that is,by being born into a priestly tribe and family... Hebrews 7:11-16 hit the nail on the head.... ___________________________ 11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. ___________________________ The above verse clears everything... Rather than becoming a priest through a human Father who had himself been a priest,Jesus had been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of melchizedek.... Read hebrews 5:10 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Further more Jesus did not have any descendants or successor to his priesthood..in this vain too,he was without geneology.... Jesus' link to melchizedek has nothing to do with his literal origin..rather it is linked to his serving as Gods priest forever as did melchizedek...... Besides common sense should tell you that the high priest of God cannot be the God he is serving as high priest for...common sense ooooooo.............. ....benalvino: y'all can see that he cant address the contradiction... so he does what he likes to do! say its a stupid question.Only God did it because the vendor he used in creating other things he created by himself... benalvino: Rev 3:14 shows he is the source of the creations of God which supports colossians and john 1:1-4. if he is created then this contradictions comes and you still cant address them and you will call them stupid again... 1: Colossians says through him all things came into existence he is before all things and by him all things consist.Wrong!!!!....revelation 3:14 explicitly shows Jesus is the first of Gods creation..... You are the one contradicting revelation 3:14 by not wanting to understand colossians..... In no way does revelation 3:14 suggests Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means he is the source..that definition is in your head and not in the scriptures....kindly coin out a parallel use of the expression "beginning of"to support your claim.....there is more than enough evidence as to the use of that expression...and in all cases it shows the person in question had a beginning,but the first.... Jesus had a beginning ooooo...... benalvino: 2: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Jesus had a beginning my brother... No escape route for you...... He is the beginning of Gods creation....... The first of Gods creation....  1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 7:12pm On Jul 05, 2013 |
Benjamin: when you say Jesus is the first born and that means first created... we can conclude that the father have 4 first born....Lol.....confusion galore.... Is there another person you know apart from Jesus who is the firstborn of all creation??....if you knw abeg tell all of us..... and he is also the beginning of Gods creation...is there another person who is the beginning of Gods creation??..... benalvino: john 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. this bold font debunk you...Oh and you forgot the word THROUGH Jesus remains the vendor through which God created other things other than Jesus whom he created first....... Now melchizedek.....:::: when ever melchizedek is mentioned in the scriptures or when he is connected to Jesus what is the main focus??.....PRIESTHHOOD right??...... Now ask yourself when it is said melchizedek has no beginning of days and no parents,in what sense does that apply??..... Ofcourse we know the Jesus we are talking about has a parent(Yahweh) and God the Father is his Father.....so how is melchizedek having no parent connected to Jesus??....it has to do with his role as a priest......remember melchizedeks priesthood office was one that never came from a family tree.......the Father himself appointed melchizedek to serve as priest..unlike the other priests who became priests by virtue of being born into priesthood,Jesus and melchizedek were appointed high priests by Yahweh himself..... Melchizedek having no parents has nothing to do with his literal beginning........melchizedek was indeed born by a woman and was a man...... Thank you.... benalvino: When some one tries to explain something to you... the way you call mopol to guide your mind which is put into bullion Van will make you not to accept the fact...Now maybe I need to bring a sharp object to clear off the moulds in your ears..... Revelations 3:14 has shown Jesus had a beginning......now when all is used it ofcourse includes Jesus himself through which all(other) things were made but excludes the Father who created Jesus.......revelation 3:14 tells you that other should be used even if it doesn't appear in that verse.......... An exact example was given using 1 corinthians 15:24-28 where all authority was given to Jesus..but when all is used it excludes the Father who gave Jesus all authority,while Jesus himself is under the authority of the Father.... So ALL in no way excludes Jesus from being a creature of God...... Just as you can't exclude reuben who is the beginning of Jacobs pro creative power from Jacobs kids,so also you can't sneak Jesus out of Gods creation...he is the first of Gods work,creation and plan... And always take note of the word THROUGH when ever you think of escaping this lucid points..... benalvino: 2: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.And all you do is ignore the word THROUGH..... Please can we say it was through the Father God created all things??... Can you please put on your thinking caps for once??........ Sorry to burst you bubbles....Jesus himself was created......so your points are null and void........ The nothing in the verse u quoted excludes Jesus himself who was created by his Father....... Jesus was created by his Father as the first of Gods work...... And there is this question that gets you dumb founded..... If Jesus is equal to his Father who caused him as you assume,can't we conclude the Father can also be called the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of Gods creation...??.... This question answers your questions as to if Jesus was created or had a beginning.... benalvino: all the verses i presented i am happy you only tried to tackle just 2... others shows clearly that Jesus is God...All your questions have been tackled a long time ago........ And I'm quite happy the other questions were tackled...  ......benalvino: another big question you cant answer is that... son and father took part in the Creation as God my believes...Now I ask you d same question I have been asking desika in the other thread.... When sins are forgiven who is said to have forgiven them??.........GOD the Father alone or all of those he has appointed and given the authority to forgive sins??........ consistently the scriptures have shown Jesus was Gods vendor.....the linking word through is used to describe Jesus' position in creation...... While the Jesus himself was created as first of Gods creation...... God the Father remains outstanding because he created or caused the vendor he used or employed in creating all things(Father excepted,while Father created Jesus)........ |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Did Jesus Preexist His Birth - Honeychild, Bookmark And Ijawkid Let's Discuss by ijawkid(m): 5:01pm On Jul 05, 2013 |
benalvino: Why are you people still here discussing this? i left because the owner of this thread doesn't even discuss what lands him to his understanding... instead they turn it to another trinity argument...Ben I can see you are still as confused as ever..... 1...Question is... why is it that the father and Jesus share same spirit? Why is the holy spirit the spirit of christ at same time the spirit of the father? Answer::... 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. Jesus was promised the holy spirit and he was given...by virtue of that Jesus can also transmit this spirit to his servants... So for your information the Father and Jesus do not share the holy spirit equally..one(the Father) owns it,the other was given...sometimes I wonder wether you guys sit down to read scriptures before you quote out of point to support this develish doctrine called the trinity..have you ever in your life hear that the Father was given the holy spirit or that holy spirit was poured on the Father??.. 2...just like you like the verse that says the father is the Only One God and yet reject that Jesus is the only One lord is what baffles me. yet the father is Lord and Jesus is Lord as the father is the One God same with Jesus. Jesus is the God over all include all of you here Answer... I never rejected Jesus as the one Lord portended by that verse..I only gave an explanation how that happened..but as usual you forfeited the main issue which is::who is the one God to hold on to the one Lord that was mentioned so that you can delude yourself further... Now this is the scripture I quoted to clear the air.. Acts 2:34-36 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ 36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified This scripture shows explicitly how Jesus ended up the one Lord mentioned in 1 corinthians 8:6...he was made,appointed and annointed as Lord and meSsiah by no other person but the Father...this one appointed Lord over God the Fathers house and people is whom david saw that was exalted..... My problem with you is why run away from the glaring fact that the Father is the one God alone and not a mixture of 3 persons ,but chase after the one lord mentioned in that verse??...and you never wondered why the apostle paul forgot completely about the holy spirit in situations like this that should prove the trinity if at all it exists.......shaking my ijaw head... 3....I put it to you that Jesus was created.....I have provided scriptural proof which you have dodged and explained with answers which you yourself aren't convinced of.... You wriggled your way through the clear and glaring facts that Jesus is both Gods firstborn and the beginning of Gods creation...... You gave definitions that you thought could help you run away,but my brother the truth will chase you until you concede to it..... I provided scriptural parrallels for Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation just as you did for firstborn(though you never gave all the examples of what it means for someone to be firstborn),but you completely ignored them...infact even the definition you gave that Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means he is the chief of Gods creation was shown to mean Jesus was the first thing/person God ever created from the scriptures... You dodged it my brother.... Then in another thread you conceded the Father is greater than Jesus thereby debunking even the doctrine you hold so tight......you are very confused.... Just a scripture that would show that the Father,son and holy spirit make up one GOD should suffice for all this argument....but behold,no scripture of such exists..... You better stick with the explicit and consistent verses that shows the Father alone is the one God who is the God of Jesus Christ and all of us.... You had better abandon this demonic doctrine before Jesus himself gets to you.... ...... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anti-Deity of Yahshua: Please Kindly Help Frosbel Answer This by ijawkid(m): 4:27pm On Jul 05, 2013 |
hisblud: Back to you, i asked you this question and all you did was to be silent. here its againOboy e be like the thing wey u dey find u no go see am....... ......This scripture does not in anyway support the trinity....... go and stop practising polytheism....... Accept the Father alone as your God before its too late.... Na Jesus himself go deal with all of ona for this rubbish....... I have earlier told you that this scripture applied to solomon before it did on Jesus....so asking further questions to massage your trinity delusion only shows you are not a serious person...... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 11:49am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Syncan: This will help tell you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_NicaeaI got this quote from the link you gave.... "for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented." My question is.....what's the difference between this act what the people who practice shintoism,buddhaism, etc do??..... They infact adore,bow before and worship images or representations of there God(s)....... Abeg Jesus command this kin act??..... Can't you guys worship the one true God the Father with out images and mouldings just as Jesus did??...... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 11:42am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Syncan: Exactly the Point! The Image is an Image!What do you do with the image??...... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 11:30am On Jul 05, 2013 |
italo: Never called an image GOD before......Lol...... Oya let's start..... you bow down to images and without them you just can't worship God..... At this point I don't even know the God you worship..... Smh!!!!.... ....... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 11:27am On Jul 05, 2013 |
... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 11:14am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Boomark:They think Jesus being the word of God means Jesus is literally in the Fathers mouth or Jesus is the Fathers literal voice or speech.... Shaking my ijaw head!!!!!!!!.......... ..... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 11:06am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Sal C: You must have been reading your own imaginations into my posts, I never said the son of perdition is in the Catholic Church.U are mistaking boomark for another person..... He says he isn't a JW....can't you just accept what he told you??........ And once again fling that rosary,the image of mary and all you bow down to in worship into the dustbin........ Enough is enough..!!!!.... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 10:49am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Syncan: Then why did you attack me for chiding Bookmark on it ? I am sure you must have noticed that I have deliberately avoided engaging you severally on this forum. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 10:49am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Syncan: Then why did you attack me for chiding Bookmark on it ? I am sure you must have noticed that I have deliberately avoided engaging you severally on this forum.Don't avoid me o my dear..... .....I was just making a correction......when you went into "the word of God" issue And my message is::::....run away from the images and mouldings you bow down to for worship.... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 10:28am On Jul 05, 2013 |
italo: After you run from the Bible which you call God.Never called the scriptures GOD before...... Never ever..!!!!...... .... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Image Worship Is An Abomination To God!!! by ijawkid(m): 10:02am On Jul 05, 2013 |
Syncan: Yeah, when you call the bible "word of God" and the "Word of God" is Jesus and Jesus is God; therefore the Bible is God...(Bookmark).And the word of God which Jesus is named isn't the one God the Father....... And just as Jesus is divine as john 1:1 portrays so is the word of God aka the scriptures........ Always remember that to us there is but one God the Father...... And as for your images..... Run away from them...... |
