₦airaland Forum

I'll post a question I posed to TomboGodson/joshTheFirst sometime back.

If Boko Haram asked you to sacrifice your life for the release of the Chibok girls, and you did so fully aware you'd come back to life after a day, would that still count as a sacrifice?

Would it be a greater sacrifice compared to one who who does so with no hope of resurrection?

InesQor has answered well. The Darling of Heaven crucified counts as a sacrifice.

Does God feel how we feel?

Does God have faith? Can he experience faith? The travails and trials, the doubts? Does he completely understand the human experience?


If he does, if he understands what it means to hurt, what it means to cry because one feels hopeless, the fear of losing faith, why does he let this all happen?

If God doesn't intervene in man's affairs, what's the point of prayers or even acknowledging him?




Looking forward to a good discussion. I'll contribute what little I can.

Yes, God does. He became man as Jesus Christ and His Word records that He was tested in ALL points as we are.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He went through it all and He overcame. And He has built us and empowered us also to overcome. He knows our capacities and our frailties.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

And if we need help, which we all do, we can come to Him for help and for power for our use and living.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Pastor AIO: "I've been a deep believer my whole life.

Sorry sorry, i'm late for the party, Following thread from first post but got no chance to 'discuss'. On the first statement, that is a lie and impossible. Nobody(i dont mean the new aManFromMars oh) can be a deep believer his/her whole life. You've got to be Jesus Christ the sinless One or something. A DEEP believer you say?

18 years as a Southern Baptist. More than 40 years as a mainline Protestant. I'm an ordained pastor. But it's just stopped making sense to me. You see people doing terrible things in the name of religion, and you think: 'Those people believe just as strongly as I do. They're just as convinced as I am.' And it just doesn't make sense anymore.

There are many false apostles, false prophets, false teachers, false brethren etc. All this C.V don't add nothing. BTW, people do terrible things in the name of anything(love, religion, money, revenge, power etc) See again why you were not a deep believer ALL YOUR LIFE. People doing terrible things believe just as strongly as you do. They don't even know what or whom they have believed to start with.

It doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives. If a plane crashes, and one person survives, everyone thanks God. They say: 'God had a purpose for that person. God saved her for a reason!' Do we not realize how cruel that is? Do we not realize how cruel it is to say that if God had a purpose for that person, he also had a purpose in killing everyone else on that plane? And a purpose in starving millions of children? A purpose in slavery and genocide? For every time you say that there's a purpose behind one person's success, you invalidate billions of people. You say there is a purpose to their suffering. And that's just cruel."

http://www.humansofnewyork.com/post/90268158526/ive-been-a-deep-believer-my-whole-life-18-years

Please let's discuss this.

About God dabbling into people's life, that's just a poor concept of life. If God owns the whole world and owns and created every human, what is meant by God dabbling?
Not to be critical+, i'll endeavour to be explanatory. For a better attempt at understanding or grasping the issues on ground, it is pertinent to see things from a different angle/perspective. Evidently, God says His ways are different from man's ways, so you want to be putting yourself in a different angle to see things differently for once.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

In God's perspective, the whole world/earth is gone, finished, condemned, perishing. All have sinned as it were. The earth and mankind is supposed to have perished and died(whatever that means). We are all under wrath by default, from Adam that is. that is why the Bible teaches or explains about God's mercy/mercies. The Bible teaches that everything we are permitted to do is by God's mercies. That is why it is said that you are alive by God's mercies, and whatever else you do or are permitted to do is just God's mercy. Having children, joy, promotion, health, whatever good thing is by God's mercy which is upon the just and the unjust. You shouldn't even have been born in the first place, according to the Bible that is. So that you are even born, or see a new day, or are chanced to repent, or have some 'hope' of going to Heaven is extra.
God was existent, eternal, having joy and whatever good thing before He created Adam. Actually, the whole earth is considered as a light thing in reality.
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Isa 40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isa 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

In that sense, when He's taking or deciding to take some humans(actually many) to live with Him in eternity, He's not losing. He has nothing to lose.
Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.


Secondly, the Bible teaches physical death to be just a passage or separation. It is even viewed as something better than physical life, especially for the believer.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
(CEV) It is a hard choice to make. I want to die and be with Christ, because that would be much better.
(GNB) I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing;

Here's top christian Paul saying for him to DIE is a better thing than physical life. Below is an old testament passage.
Ecc 4:2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
Ecc 4:3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

There you have it. The preference in this perspective is to be rather physically dead or unborn. Chapter 6 even says that an untimely birth is better and so on. That is the perspective. So, when one goes about moaning about millions of children, and billions of people, he's not seen things in the other angle. The whole world lies in wickedness and the foundations of the earth are out of course. That is not God's fault but man's(another talk for another day maybe).
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

The earthquakes, the plane crash, the car accidents and other incidents. They are all a result of the fall. There would have been no you even. So, that there is a you, or a chance for you to be saved or be an overcomer is God's mercies. If you do not make it,well, God help you.

Kay 17: http://m.modernghana.com/mobile/552468/1/i-daresay-you-dont-believe-in-god.html

errr, you're malinformed.

odun4love: what would you say about santification and how do u get santified.....?

Note: 90 percent of pastors dont know this

Don't overrate yourself.

Candour: Of course God answers prayers abi you doubt it

hmmmm, ask him oh. Where's Mark?

God answers prayers still,

Oh duh. Tell me this is highyo my good friend. Can i afford another like?

jackpot: @Guru Maharaji

none of our players wore blue pant but we still lost!

it seems Yobo wore blue payint. He looked like someone wearing blue.

DrummaBoy: Unfortunately, I kept no records of the discussions. I took it for granted that the thread will always be there.

But nothing spoil; even up to this point, the issues have already been made clear about the tithing subject. God is able to give people whatever convictions they need on any subject in religion including tithing.

While I maintain my grouse with those who fleece people of their money in the name of tithing, I have no problem with anyone who tithes of his free will. I rest on Romans 14 now: To him who tithes, it is to the Lord he tithes and to him who doesn't to the Lord he does the same; God has accepted them all. Tithing is not a weighty issue in Christianity.

good, God answers prayer.

Rhymeyjohn: Its a pity, the finished task has gone back to an unfinished state. God knows best.

Rhymey my brother, what's good? Oh, so drumb doesn't have it on his blog? Oya, bring your tithe receipt for the past six months drumb, lol. i may consider helping you.

chei, there is God oh. People go faint today@ data loss.

DrummaBoy: @Image

This is 24 hours since you made the last post and indicated that it is not yet ended. Do you still have anything to add to the post or you plan to end it there?

Sorry, sarry, sarryyyyyy. Network and time issues.

Mark and Candour have stated that they wish to know the importance of regular contributions to their wives, children, communities and government. We have explained this already. To reiterate, wives, children, communities and governments would rather prefer consistent givings and contributions as against lotto kind of givings. Lotto kind of giving is when i feel like giving. Nobody wants this type of giving, i've not met any. We give to the cause of our children, wives, communities and governments whether we feel like or no. And we do not want to treat the household of God any less. What we cannot do to others as they would not like it, lets not try it with God. That is pretty much what this verse says in a paraphrase.
Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

We have at no time made tithing a law on this thread. It is Mark and Candour who have continued to say that it is a law. We stand to be corrected on that. What we have consistently done on this thread discuss is to commend and recommend the tithe. When our fellow discussants say " God didn’t institute tithe in the law for ease of budgeting, he did because he withheld the rights of a particular Israeli tribe from fending for themselves." We think that is just their own idea and not found or agreed to in any scripture. God was not punishing the Levites but elevating them. The talk about withdrawing rights is simply not it. God said HE was their inheritance. They had a greater inheritance than the others, because they chose to be on the Lord's side, and were serving in the house of God. It was a privilege and a promotion for them, not a withdrawal of rights, except you think having to work in farms is better/greater than having God.
Num 18:20 And the LORD spoke unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

Budget is plan, supply, funds, making provision. This is what God did for the levites through the tithes and other offerings. It did ease budgeting, and no one is being dictated to by us. We have wronged no man. There is no quote to such effect of dictation and commandeerings, and we would like that our dear discussants do not resort to false accusations and insinuations.
We believe liberality, and not liberty is why you may not find reference to tithe whenever any of the apostles mentioned giving or charity in their epistles. The people were giving way over 10% to the cause of the church, therefore there would naturally be no need to teach them of 10%. It's like expecting to find HCF and LCM, or Decimal point in the syllabus of a graduate mathematics course. They were already well past just 10%. They were easily selling lands and houses for Christ, it was not a burden for them to give to Jesus. The early church were selling all their properties and laying them at the apostles' feet. We hope that Mark and Candour would show us what part of the statement is not in the Acts text that they quoted, or how it is an attempt to panel beat the truth. The statement was simply a verifiable method that is seen in the Acts of the apostles. We didn't mention it as being a command.
It is evident and logical to see that Ananias and Sapphira felt pressured to give. We don't say that anyone forced them. We even explained and showed that Peter told them that it was theirs. Did you read this or not from our post? Peter challenged them, saying that it was not by force or a command/law. We already wrote this in explanation. Maybe you skimmed through. however, the actions of others do challenge and provoke us to action as human beings. This is basic fact. Other's actions can stir up, incite, provoke a person.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Jesus considered what His apostles were given as their pay, and He said that they were worthy of it.
Luk 10:7 Stay in that same house, eating and drinking whatever they offer you, for workers should be given their pay. Don't move around from one house to another.

Whatever they offer you. Some fellows evidently brought the prices of the things that were sold,And laid them down at the apostles feet. i have given tithes of my own volition for years now. Many have purposed in their hearts to give a tenth for ages now. It becomes ludicrous if you claim to have no problems with distribution of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints, but have problems with distribution of the tenth of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints. A particular gentile church was even told to set aside a proportion every sunday. Obviously, the much ado about no proportion or percentage stems from some other thing?
1Co 16:2 Every Sunday each of you must put aside some money, in proportion to what you have earned, and save it up, so that there will be no need to collect money when I come. Good News

We do not attempt to ridicule anybody. We have shown scriptural and historical facts proving that the judea church was the worst hit in the economic crises. They were the same fellows who had sold their possessions and distributed to every man as every man needs. Even poor gentile churches still had to help them out. Their poverty was on another class as it were. When you say "When it came to helping needy souls, a Christian must forget his own circumstances." Is this another command coming from your stables and is it a scriptural command/law? We are willing to learn from this please?
By the way, the widow of Zarepath did not forget her circumstances. We are almost certain that she offered Elijah far more than a tenth of the handful of meal and oil that she had. Quite commendable and recommended by us. There is also this thing we are hearing that we insinuate that Abraham made sacrifices when he gave tithes. i guess our friends forget that anything we give to God is a sacrifice in a way. Sacrifice is something given to God or offered to God. i understand the other sense, in giving up something valued like Isaac, anyway. But we meant it in a general sense that giving to God is sacrifice.
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
(ALT) But stop neglecting the doing of good and generosity, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
(CEV) But don't forget to help others and to share your possessions with them. This too is like offering a sacrifice that pleases God.
(DRB) And do not forget to do good and to impart: for by such sacrifices God's favour is obtained.
(GNB) Do not forget to do good and to help one another, because these are the sacrifices that please God.

When one gives(whether 10% or other), it is the sacrifice that pleases God. Doing good, being generous, imparting, helping, these are sacrifices. It's not only when you give an arm or a leg before something is a sacrifice. Sacrifice is simply something offered to, or as unto God. Like when we give praise, it is a sacrifice. the sense here is not necessarily about the amount.
Jesus said "I know thy works, and charity, and service’’. Tithing is a work, a good work for that matter. It can be done charitably, and as a service. God is not unrighteous to forget, no, not Jehovah God.


END

mazaje: Baba, where you run go hide na?. . . .I miss you ohh. . .Nice to see you. . .Happy new year. . .Me sef dey go on and off. . .Not a regular like back in the days, but i do come around and chip in once in a while. . .Am now based in Naija. . How are you doing?. . .

What is the problem here? Would you like to be sent to the chip in mode? lol

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL R7

Unfortunately for Mark and his team mate, it is becoming a lifestyle for them to seek to be divisive. They have aimed at causing and bloating divisions between ministers and churches, they've aimed at similar with the Bible, and now they aim at such even with our points/reasons. We would like to admonish them from the words of the scripture of what it states about such fellows. It is largely a mark of carnality and we hope that it is avoided, instead of imbibed just to make argument.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Mark and Candour seem to have evidently forgotten so soon what this thread is all about when they say "With this presentation, our fellow discussants have conveniently changed the reason they pay tithe and preach tithe to the fact that Abraham tithed and it’s a responsible thing to follow in the footsteps of Abraham. They are no longer tithing because". They have forgotten, or decided not to take to cognizance, the fact that we gave 10 reasonS in the first page of this thread. The reasons given are quoted again below, it would have baffled us but we've seen them do such to other things.

R1: Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
R2: Our tithing is in the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. (Psalm 119:142)
R3: Our tithing continues because Jesus and all the apostles had great respect for the Bible (John 17:17)
R4: Our tithing remains practiced because there is no condemnation from God for doing it. (Romans 8:1)
R5: Our tithing is done to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)
R6: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)
R7: Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)
R8: Our tithing is done as the Bible shows that Jacob learnt about tithes from Abraham, showing clearly that tithing was practised long time before the law. (Hebrews 11:9)
R9: Tithing is scriptural as Jacob vowed to give it TO God, emphasizing and discerning the Lord's body (Genesis 28:22)
R10: Our tithing is based on scriptures that Jacob gave tithe of his all, a precursor and foretaste to bring all the tithe (Malachi 3:10)
God bless you all.

These reasonS were made clear, so it is sad why when we presented reason R7, our friends paint it like we changed reason R2 to fact R7. R2 and R7, no, R1 to R10 are not vacillations, but 10 points with their references, as we all agreed to give from the start of the thread. It is reasonable that each point should be different from the other, and we even agreed that if a point was the same or had being treated already in another point, we could concur to skip it, all this on the first page.
We also observed with awe, the dexterity of our brothers in playing with scriptures. Indeed, as they say, one can make the scriptures say what one wants. We are not of that class, sorry. We reverence the Word of God and do not take it so lightly as was shown in the previous rebut. It is not a good example to be economical with the truth. We wonder why Mark and Candour will say "Infact it was such a ‘good example’ . Again a very good example to follow because see how profitable it was for the Patriarch. Obviously we can assume God commanded him to tell these lies as it all turned out well for him. WE SEE THAT GOD DIDN’T CONDEMN HIM AND EVEN DESCRIBED HIM AS A PROPHET. Then we go down the family tree to see how Isaac followed the works of Abraham."
This are indeed perilous times that we live in. We would like everyone to know that we do not agree with Mark and Candour's views as presented above, but that we can learn from scriptures and from scriptural characters.

Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Brethren, the above scriptures show us what 2timothy 3v16 has been telling us. Believers are expected to learn from the examples in scriptures, and we ought to have our senses exercised enough to know good examples and bad examples.(hebrews5). The 1Corinthians 10 passage examples being referred to in this passage we quote were of backsliding, being overthrown, idolatry, murmuring and other sins. The apostle says they are our examples, and we hope and pray that Mark and Candour understand the context. Believers are expected to be humble enough to learn from others, from pharisees, from younger ones, from birds, lilies, ants, the firmament, and of course from godliness. Jesus Christ remains our perfect example, but no scripture or Holy Spirit hinders us from learning salient lessons from the lives of others. There are great lessons to be learnt from the lives of men and women like Abraham, Gideon, Moses, David, Saul, Elijah, Peter, Esther, Hannah, Ruth, Martha, Paul etc. There are examples we can learn from history and from even our contemporaries. One of many lessons we learn from the life of Abraham was his offering of tithes of all. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Our friends said "Then we should also follow the other practices of circumcision (Gen 17:26-27), Erecting of Altars (Gen 12:8 ), burnt offerings (Gen 22:13), sleeping with the maid (Gen 16:4)." We have earlier shown that there is nothing wrong with circumcision, in as much as it is not done to obtain justification or salvation. We quoted it before, but perhaps our friends missed it. Here it is again.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
(CEV) Being circumcised or uncircumcised isn't really what matters. The important thing is to obey God's commands.
(GNB) For whether or not a man is circumcised means nothing; what matters is to obey God's commandments.
(GW) Circumcision is nothing, and the lack of it is nothing. But keeping what God commands is everything.

Nothing wrong also with altars, or with offerings, so far as they are put and used in their proper contexts. Note that the apostles thought it an important thing is to obey God's commands. Candour and Mark have asked if we considered the cost of actually following Abraham’s works? We ask if they are considering the all words of Jesus. For instance, Jesus said
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. This is what Jesus said, but Mark and Candour say we had better consider the cost. We have considered the cost, and hope that God will continue to give us the grace. Abraham's work was not faith by the way. Mark and Candour contradict themselves as they themselves quoted the below passage.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

Abraham was not justified by works but by faith, according to that passage quoted. If Abraham's work was faith, then the above passage would be irrelevant and unnecessary as faith justified him. Abraham for one would not kill Jesus. Jesus said so. In fact, when Abraham saw Melchisedec who was of the same order of priesthood as Jesus, he gave Him tithes of ALL. This was one of Abraham's works.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

When Abraham saw someone like Jesus, he rejoiced and was glad. he demonstrated that joy and gladness by giving tithe of all.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

We don't say that his tithing or rejoicing justified him. We do say that he tithed, get that. Faith is not work, living faith is however accompanied by works. Abraham demonstrated living faith, and is the father of faith. He walked by faith, he tithed by faith, he sacrificed by faith, offered his son by faith, even gave his son in marriage by faith, he obeyed by faith, and journeyed by faith. His actions/works were faith based. Abraham is not God, is he? We wonder why mark and candour tried to subtly equate him to God. Abraham is just father of faith, he is not God(Romans 4). Peter made his mistakes, so did Paul, and Barnabas, and John, and David, and Abraham, and every man. But we can still humbly learn and imbibe great lessons from them all. Pride gives us such a warped opinion of ourselves that we think that we have nothing to learn from others.
The Bible records and equates tithe to an heave offering. This is why we have repeatedly stated that we should not learn a topic in isolations, but collectively bring in ALL Scripture as divinely inspired and profitable. Here is one scripture that teaches about tithes.
Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fullness of the winepress.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.
Num 18:29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.

The heave offerings mentioned here are tithe. All the tithes were referred to as heave offering. The main purpose of the heave is a recognition of God the giver. It is the same reason why Abraham gave the tithe. He considered God as the One who gave him victory.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Note in the above passage that it was penned down by Moses, and if anyone knows something about tithes, it should be Moses. moses referred to what Abraham gave as tithes, because that is what it was. Antitithers confuse themselves and the undiscerning today when they introduce high sounding words and phrases like "Abraham's tithe", "monetary tithe", "levitical tithe". You will not find such in the Bible. Even the writer to the Hebrews in the new testament Bible simply refers to it as tithes, or a tenth. There was no demarcation or attempt at divisiveness when he talked about tithes in the various dispensations.
Mark and Candour have managed to come to a conclusion that "Abraham must be tagged very irresponsible" by Rhymeyj and Image's standard. We find that a most discombobulating conclusion to arrive at. We are aware that Abraham was responsible to his family, his wife, his household, his community and his God. Our discussants have again managed to imply that Abraham's tithe to Melchisedek MUST have been his FIRST and only tithe. We say it again that they would need to be omniscient to assert that, we know that they are not. The number of times something is recorded or not recorded in scriptures does not automatically correspond to the amount of times it happened. Else, following that logic, we may also conclude and assert that Abraham ONLY offered a burnt offering once(the incidence when God provided a lamb) in his life. We may also assert using the same logic about many of the Bible characters never tithing, or being circumcised, or marrying, praying etc in cases where such was not recorded. It plainly would not work that way.
Our friends have implored us to differentiate between giving good advice and propagating a clear command from God. We have made it clear severally that we believe that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable. Because of that, a man of God(that is a believer) can be led by God to commend and recommend any part of Scriptures as the Holy Spirit leads. We have explained recently how we feel that the new testament is not really about commands but about "ought tos". Our friends seemed fixated on the 'ought to tithe' part, and perhaps missed the lessons we gave on the whole. In the new testament dispensation, there is a sort of accompanying liberty that goes with every action from prayer, to fasting, to tithing, to reading Bible, to going to church, and every other good work. But we are exhorted to do good works none the less, and tithing remains a good work till tomorrow.

The tithe is an heave offering, lifted up, in recognition to God. We do it as a regard to God, acknowledging that He is our provider. And as Scriptures rightly say, the husbandman that labours should have the first share of the harvest. He is actually to us, the One that laboured, as we could do nothing without Him. He is the Reason, the Why, why we find giving Him a tenth the responsible thing to do. We have studied and through the Word, by His Spirit, through experience and mistakes, we have seen it the most solid and consistent form of physical supply in His house. We have seen the wisdom of God in the church, how God took excellent care of His workers who were involved in lifetime of service in His house. He provided them the basic necessities of man guaranteed. He gave them shelter, providing cities for them. He also provided them with consistent food and clothing through the tithes and offerings received. The early church tried a different method, a method of selling all their properties and laying them at the apostles' feet. This is the method that Mark and Candour seem to commend and recommend. We however commend ALL Scriptures, not just the Acts of the apostles. We can take examples from ALL Scriptures as the Spirit of God leads us. We find it however necessary to note that the initial method of some of the early church did not pay/favour in the long run. They say it is not wise to continue to do the same thing, and expect a different result.
As the early church sold all their possessions and distributed to every man, it seemed a jolly thing to do at the start. The scriptures record that they soon ran into problems as the church increased.

Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

First was the pressure on the couple Ananias and Sapphira, who also wanted to show that they'd sold their possession and given 100%. Peter challenged them, saying that it was not by force or a command/law. Next came the grumblings and neglect of certain people.
Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples were multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Selling all your property would not satisfy everybody in the long run. At the initial, no man lacked, but as time went on, it didn't prove a stable or magnificient method. Unfortunately, it led to their poverty as a whole. When the economic meltdown hit the world, this church was the worst hit.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:

The brethren which dwelt in Judea were the worst hit. they got a name tag which stuck to them, "poor saints". i don't want to be a poor saint, neither do i want my church to be poor. i've seen what works better, and it is biblical. It is the responsible thing to do. Where we can, we want to provide for the house of God. It is like our own house, our Father's house.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

When peter, James and John saw Paul, one of the things they reminded him of was of the poor saints in Jerusalem. i do not want or hope for such a thing repeated around me.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Paul tried with the gentile churches getting them to donate for the poor saints, who had initially sold all their possessions and distributed to every man. We ought to give earnest heed, and not let evil history repeat itself among us. Tithing is a good work, and God recognises good works. He created us for good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(CEV) God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are.


If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. A true Christian would make sacrifices that please his God.
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

We choose to be examples of believers in charity and in responsibility. We know God says "I know thy works, and charity, and service", therefore, we do not faint, neither are we deterred.


END

PRESENTING R7 Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)

Like Father, like Son. As God said, " A son honoreth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honor? " To be like Christ is tantamount to honouring Christ, and to be like Abraham is relative to honouring the father of faith. Honour is not just lip service. Many world leaders paid lip to Nelson Mandela recently. To truly honour him would be to emulate him. The same way, many people pay lip service to Jesus and His words. They quote His Words but are not interested in doing them. But be ye doers of the word, and not quotershearers only, deceiving who? Here is what God said about Abraham's children, and we ought to let God be true, and not our logic.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

If you were Abraham's children you would do what Abraham did. "If you really were Abraham's children," Jesus replied, "you would do the same things that he did. We all know that one of the things that Abraham did was to give tithes of all.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

We are made to understand through the epistle of Paul, that believers are children of Abraham. Here it is,
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Christians are offspring of Abraham by faith. Abraham was called out of ‘sin’ first, and he obeyed God, before he later tithed. So also, a sinner must first receive Jesus before talking about tithing. You need to give God your heart as it were, before your possessions. Abraham did not just give his tithes to any king around but to the priest of the Most High God. He was a responsible man, and he thought it the responsible thing to do. Even God had this testimony of him.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The will and the way of Abraham was for his household to follow in his steps. Today also, we count it the responsible thing to do to give the tithes for the work of God in the church. We are practical like Abraham, and we recognise the various needs that would always arise in the church, and how the spiritual leadership are able custodians of what we give for the church. In our own houses and neighbourhoods, we are responsible enough to note and comply with tax in its different forms. We realise the importance of our contributions to wives, children, community and government. We know from our experience that our wives work better and happier with a steady and known income from us. It helps with the budget and the planning, as opposed to our ONLY giving them, as we are led(whatever that means). We know what our young children with great minds and visions can do, as they calculate and know what to expect from their parents, and how they become industrious as opposed to the lotto style of giving to them. We know how sensible and reliable governments can achieve as they plan and implement budgets and put tax payer's money to good use. To us, we believe the church of God deserves equal if not better treatment. We know as individuals that our governments and families and communities would be more pleased with our consistent givings than with our lotto givings. Imagine a community where the contributions were as you feel like, or a society that way. That is not a responsible society.
Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

DrummaBoy: @Image123

Can you please enlighten me more on exactly what you are trying to correct through your "correction".

As I can see that you have finally "learnt" to quote me correctly; probably following my own "correction" of your post where you unfortunately tried to paint me in another light by inventing the lie that I said "atheists are better than tithers".

I am still waiting for you and Bidam to provide the post where I made that statement and if you guyz cannot, you could save your "correction(s)" for yourselves.

saved sir.

rudedough: Image i think its high time you give up and go nurse your wounds. Peter has been brutalizing you with some salient points since inception. Is it when you fall down and collapse that you will realize that you've been intellectually assaulted?

Give up bro and go home now that you still have your limb. Life is too short to take more than 1 KO.

Let me grace you with an answer. i think you deserve it, at least this is new year. When your friend is serious, i'll be more sserious with him, whatever that means, lol.

Goshen360: "I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill them" confusion. ...coming soon.

Jesus broke mosaic law and yet, he didn't sin....coming soon.

How come sin is the transgression or breaking of the law, yet, Jesus broke the law but didn't sin. You're staring the eyes of the One who gave the law to moses and you thinking you can use the law he gave against him.

Hoping to be aware if these coming soons happen.

peterphd: Shut up nigga! Unfortunately, Christians don't know who a Christian is and so, we have 33,000 sects of Christianity.So anyone who thumps a bible about is basically a christian.I said you believe in the Christian god because he was drummed into your head and you lived in the predominantly Christian south of Nigeria.I have told you that you have Indian Christians the way you have ijaw Muslims (asari dokubo. Show me where I goofed about Islam (quote me).Let me tell you something you don't know.The Koran is mostly based on the old testament and any scathing attack on the OT affects both religions.This is why the church couldn't stop Islam because if they had questioned It,people would see through their own bullshit.Give my life to God? Which one? Horus, Krishna, allah, vishnu, Jesus? If its Jesus, sorry I don't give my life to dead Jewish men that probably didn't exist.

is there one devil possessing you? Jesus is Lord, you've goofed again on islam. Don't let your sins and the guilt be your ruin.

Gombs: Ok.... o....but from the romantic gesture of atheists and anti tithers, and for image 123 to point it out, I tire sef, wish the links were present, if he edited it, we'd still know....I just hope image123 wud breeze in and say what triggered his post

The general disposition(body language, lol) of antitithers triggered the post. Drumb for instance takes tithers as religious law keepers, and he compared atheists with such here

https://www.nairaland.com/1540233/inviting-tithers-theological-discuss-miwerds/19#20397358


He later went on to refer to that fellow as " an individual who does not have a head knowledge of scriptures but a heart one also"
Well, was not hoping to 'expose' him or any such thing. Hopefully, we all yield to corrections.

Joagbaje: The scripture the early church had was the Old Testament .

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The only issue is that a man is no longer justified by works . The new was based on the old . But in the Old Testament time they sought justification by them but for us we are doing the word . Adultery is still adultery , murder is still murder.

I will ask a question : if a father would have sex with his own daughter by her consent is it a sin ?

If an elder would brother have sex with his sister by consent is it a sin?

And pls don't say it doesn't happen becsuse I counsel many people. And some don't even know it's wrong. Some close relative have married one another . Some families are having issues over such marriages . Until you show them from scriptures . And they go . " is it in the bible? but I love her , what do I do. ?

Why would Paul and other apostle be instructing early church on morality when they have Holy Spirit in them to lead them into all truth .

Romans 7:7
Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”

The moral instructions of the apostles were based on the law. They can't justify or make or righteous before God. We have the nature of God and the ability to do right but we must learn the right and wrong to develop our senses. If not conscience can be defiled and hardened. And we may not know.

Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Take for example Christians insulting , harassing , lying and abusing others on this forum , how come the Holy Spirit hadn't told them this is evil . We can't blame our wrongs on the holly spirit becsuse. " HE HASNT TOLD ME " it's for us to study and develop the character of God. Our knowledge and development is personal responsibility regardless of our titles .

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

What word , remember the scripture they had was Old Testament . Paul asked for his scrolls he told Timothy to study. ( Old Testament )

The only condemnation of the law is that it lack the power to justification because christ had done that for us. But the moral principle of the law are for learning .

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Fire. God bless you.

Just read page 1 and this one. Gosh is still on empty boasts this new year, na wa oh. Bidam my bro, easy on the language oh, please.

nlMediator: I think both of you are talking past each other. The Bible contains laws in the OT and these laws can be categorized into moral, civil, ceremonial, etc. The Bible does not have to say that for anybody to know it. It's like somebody saying that Noah's ark contained carnivores, herbivores and omnivores and you're asking for where the Bible says that. All you need are the characteristics of each category of animals and compare them to the animals in the ark. Or it is like taking all the laws passed by the National Assembly on such things as allowing people to vote at Age 16, protecting the elderly from scammers, granting protections to the disabled, etc. Anybody with knowledge of the legal system can break these laws into such headings as Constitutional Law, Elder Law, Disability Law, Civil Rights, Criminal Law, etc. Because the legislature did not describe it as such does not mean we cannot. Unless, you're suggesting that al the laws in the OT are of the same character and have no distinguishing characteristics.

I think the larger point you're trying to make is that all the laws have been abolished regardless of whether they are ceremonial, civil, etc. But that's different from saying there were no distinctions in the laws.

I also think the point that the NT contains sufficient rules for the believer is a very solid point. That's what keeps on confusing me about this Law-Grace argument. The "new" teachers of grace spend their valuable time demonizing "the law" but when you ask them if they think rape, murder, stealing are wrong, they'd say yes. And then they launch into some mumbo jumbo about how people sin because of the law. Ok, so those that preach grace without law no longer sin? Somehow, their congregations are better behaved? Of course, anybody with a modicum of intellect knows that that's not even remotely true.

The OP struck the right balance, in my opinion, about Law and Grace. The law is not for the christian, as written. However, the principles behind some of the laws are still valid. That's why many of them are repeated in the NT. And that's why those that claim to preach grace-only never come out to endorse the moral activities, for example, that the law condemns. At the end of the day, much of this is much ado about nothing. Nobody can be justified by the law. And nobody can live a successful christian life who wallows in those activities called sinful. 1 Pet. 2:11.

hehehe, where was me? Nice thread.

highyo: I wish you the same and the will of God be done over your life in Jesus name
Your house will be full of blessing and never will you lack every good things in life, yea shall surely eat from the fruit of the land.
All these prayers will be fulfilled in your life, only if you Obey the lord for God will never bless a sinners.

And moreover, blessing can only be found from God, Satan doesnt have any blessing, but only curse.

If you obey God, God will bless you

If you obey Satan, Satan will curse you

Highyo highyo. All these one for me alone? You're too muchhhhh.

scarred9jan: Let's say there is a god(s).. The question now is he/her/it/them exclusive to only one set of people?

Is He?

peterphd: Hahahahahahaha...I repeat, you cannot tell me If I was a Christian or not.The reason your Indian friends discovered him is the same reason why asari dokubo discovered Islam.I put it to you that You don't know jack shiit about Islam too.Jesus needs to prove himself the same way the Muslim must prove why I should believe in books written by cave dwelling goat herders.

There are characteristics f christians mr, you were never one. You implied that i could not have believed in God, that i only believe in God because i'm in nigeria where they tlk about Him. That is the reason i showed you the unreasonableness of your logic byt talking of christians in India. i'm not you, you goofed on your knowledge of islam on this thread, i didn't. You better believe in God, He'll forgive your sins and guilts before they ruin you.