₦airaland Forum

macof: Your Bible started off as oral tradition

Religion and spirituality is based on mythology

Mythology is simply symbolism and allegorical

If you need more on Olodumare
Go to CMS book shop in Lagos island, ask for compiled Ifa corpus. Orunmila's explanation of Olodumare are there

Started off you say? Don't bank your life on unreliable mythology.

R7 to come in before today ends. Sorry for the delay.

We have explained clearly that the Bible time society was agrarian. This is not an excuse, it is a fact and it is yet to be disproved or even challenged. Their wealth was agrarian. Nobody said that silver did not exist. By the way, silver is what the english Bible usually translates as 'money' for clarity and contemporary relevance. We have shown that money is simply a means of exchange. Money is not just silver, or gold, or shekels, or dollars. Money is an accepted medium of exchange. We have demonstrated in the course of this discussion that things other than silver were used as medium of exchange, as pay, as wages, as salary. The average and common means of measuring wealth in Bible times was agrarian, and it is from that wealth that they gave tithes mainly. We have however shown that people gave tithes of ALL, of spoils of war, of all that they possessed, of all things, and as Jacob vowed, of ALL that God gave. We can give tithes when God gives us or increses us. Tithe is simply a tenth or 10% of a whole. It is not tied to agric produce in ALL Scripture. Maybe in many scriptures, but not in ALL Scriptures, and ALL Scriptures remain profitable for doctrine and for instruction, correction in righteousness.

We have shown using Adam's example that God talking about plants and crops does not limit Him to only plants and crops. We have written in English, and we await specific questions in areas not understood, instead of generalisations about gymnastics. We have shown undeniable from different scriptures how agricultural terms are used in a free sense to depict and convey more than just agricultural meanings. BTW, Jesus did not say or even imply that Judas should go and commit suicide. It is shocking how Mark and Candour arrived at that conclusion. The term 'monetary tithe' remains a vain and meaningless phrase pulled out to impress the undiscerning. Money is not limited to paper money, agric produce itself can be money, a accepted medium of exchange. Tithe is simply tithe, a tenth. The phrase is another wisecrack like the saying that "tithing is bondage". Such phrases are not found in the Bible but among theologians and seminarians.
Blessings for obeying God or His commandments are not limited to physical or material blessings. We find it disappointing that anyone would even contest that. God can choose to bless as He pleases. He is limitless. Tithing is in the Word of God, and like other words of God, God can bless the obedient with both material and immaterial blessings. He can give health, long life, peace, favour, joy etc.
Isa 48:18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

As seen above, peace and righteousness are some things God can bless the obedient with. When God says that He has blessed us with all spiritual blessings, it simply means that it is finished as christ said. He has provided it all In Christ. That does not mean we all have or possess it physically. We are not all saved, until we are saved. Salvation is one of such blessings God blessed us with when Christ came. We still grow in grace, in virtue, knowledge, the fruits of the Spirit, perfecting holiness etc. These are all blessings already provided in Christ. Each individual still has to come receive, but God has already provided it. All things are ready, He has given all things that pertain. However, those that thirst have to come and get.
Luke 10 simply shows where Jesus equated what the disciples got as their hire or wages or salary or pay. Whether what they got was edible or not, it was their pay. This is contrary to what Mark and Candour said that the apostles were not paid. Jesus said that what they got was their pay, and that they were worthy of it. If they came to my village and i gave them 100%, it was their pay/hire. If they got 10%, it was their pay or salary. they were worthy of it. The Acts of the apostles records that they got much more than 10%. people who work in the house of God can be given the tithe, as we see this done in scriptures and ALL Scripture is profitable. John baptist and Elijah did not work in the temple. We know though that Elijah received more than 10% from a widow at sometime. from Leviticus 27 to Hebrews 7 is not ALL Scripture. let us be careful, lest we be guility of taking away from the words of the book.


END

Some asked about matthew 8
Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Is it applicable or profitable, of course. Is it to be practiced, maybe or maybe not. ALL Scripture are exemplary in their own godly way. We've used Moses, Joshua, Elisha and Elijah dividing the sea to explain this. Here in matthew, Jesus said the leper should go show himself to the priest. that is important and necesary for a law abiding citizen. In their society, the priest determined whether you were clean or unclean and fit to live in the society. It's like getting a visa, even though the earth is the Lord's and He is your Father. Following Christ is not a license to lawlessness or recklessness against civil and spiritual authority. We are to obey the laws of where we are as much as they do not contradict or contravene God's Word.

Mark and Candour say "You cannot pick and choose what Laws you think are important... it’s all or none. " It's funny that they quickly forget this when they are talking about the abolished laws, the enmity. They pick and choose tithes, sabbath, feasts, and they ignore the weightier laws like faith, mercy, love and judgement.

When Mark and Candour say "Our reason for not tithing is not due to what is written in Malachi 3 rather, it is because of what is written in Leviticus 27:30-34, Hebrews 7:5 and a host of other scriptures on tithe. " They are effectively saying that ALL Scripture IS NOT profitable for doctrine. Malachi is not profitable for them, i guess Genesis also is not profitable for them. It is Leviticus 27 and Hebrews 7 that they prefer. This is not the way to form doctrine. When you are forming doctrine, ALL Scripture on the subject matter should be considered and studied. They say that their preferences are the only instructions that God gave. No, that is not correct. ALL Scripture is profitable for INSTRUCTION.(2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness )
We have quoted this verse so much, yet our friends are stating that malachi 3 is not part of their reasons. We'd rather follow the Bible than men. Here are some of ALL Scriptures on tithes directly. This is an example of how to get comprehensive doctrine, instruction and correction from scriptures. Note the basic deductions.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
The tenth of the land is referred to as tithe.

Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
The tenth of the herd is referred to as tithe.

Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
The tenth part of the cumulative tithe is referred to as tithe.

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
The tenth part of the increase of the seed is tithe.

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
The tenth part of all things is tithe.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The tenth part of of mint and anise and cummin is also referred to as tithe.

Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
The tenth of all is also referred to as tithe.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
The tenth part of all possession is also referred to as tithe.

Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
The tenth that was received from Abraham is also referred to as tithe.

And on and on like that. When one studies ALL Scripture on the subject of tithing, one major and irrefutable conclusion is that the tenth is the tithe. This basic fact runs consistently through ALL the passages quoted. Tithe is 10%. This is doctrine, this is instruction. But for one to pick some part, and ignore some part, that is unscriptural, and not in tandem with 2Timothy 3v16. The tithes of Abraham and Jacob are part of ALL Scripture, and they are profitable for instruction and for doctrine. Mark and Candour cannot change it and tell us that they are not God's instruction when Paul said they are profitable for instruction and inspired by God.

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE M6


Like we have mentioned a couple of times already, we are not reacting but pro-active. Decision to tithe is not based on the opinions of men and lots of lies or abuses. We humbly realise that most of christianity has being abused and misused in one form or the other. We still believe in God and in the Bible despite all the abuses and lots of lies about God and the Bible and its contents. We have decided to be founded on the solid Rock(the Word), not on lots of lies being sold anywhere. We encourage our friends to follow the same route and to realise that the whole world lieth in wickedness. Mark and Candour have said that "The problem we have is when one tries to make Scripture that God specifically stated was for the nation of Israel doctrine that every nation is to obey." While we respect their position, we want to state emphatically that this is not the Bible's position. The Bible is for every nation and man, it is not just written to just the nation of Israel. listen to Paul and note what the Holy Ghost said about ALL SCRIPTURES.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(BBE) But is now made clear; and by the writings of the prophets, by the order of the eternal God, the knowledge of it has been given to all the nations, so that they may come under the rule of the faith;
(GNB) Now, however, that truth has been brought out into the open through the writings of the prophets; and by the command of the eternal God it is made known to all nations, so that all may believe and obey.
(GW) but now is publicly known. The everlasting God ordered that what the prophets wrote must be shown to the people of every nation to bring them to the obedience that is associated with faith.

Breaking News, the knowledge of it has been given to all the nations. The early christians all read and searched the Scriptures, both Old and New Testament Bible.
By some twist of fate, Mark and Candour have said "Using the logic that all Scripture is for doctrine and therefore to be practiced and obeyed. one says Scripture that was spoken to a specific people is to be observed and obeyed by another group of people. ", and then they proceeded to form the bulk of their response around this insinuation. THERE IS NO PLACE WHERE WE SAID THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS TO BE PRACTICED AND OBEYED. This is why we have said it that we seem not to be paying attention, or perhaps are not reading or learning from what Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have been saying. We have actually stated AT LEAST two times on this thread/discussion, that all scripture is not to be practiced. Now that Mark and Candour are seeing that light(as it were), it seemed all new like some special revelation to some fellows on the sister thread. Some almost broke into tongues when they read it. Here is what we said as early as page 1

i do not advocate that all scriptures must be practiced. That in itself will be impracticable as there are some scripture not meant for practice. for instance,
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
What can one practice with that? Nothing, i suppose. The point that i stated and which remains valid is that all scripture is inspired by God, ALL, including the one i just quoted. And all scripture is profitable, even if an individual does not know the usefulness, or if it is not useful at a particular time.

Here is yet another quote from us on [url]page 5[/url] talking about Numbers 31 which our friends were advocating that tithers should practice.

In this instance, there were specific instructions for what to do concerning the Midianites. Specific instructions are not general instructions, although they may be emulated. Like God told Moses specifically to speak to the Rock, or to stretch his rod over the Red Sea, or as they lifted up Moses' hands while the army was fighting. These instances are not laws for every season or event. Yes, it can be repeated, but it is not a general rule to be obeyed by everyone facing such scenerio. Joshua did not stretch his rod on river Jordan, he did something else. Elijah did not stretch his rod, he parted Jordan with his cloth. Elisha followed his example. Examples can be followed and as the Holy Spirit leads us, but they are not necessarily laws for the general populace or for all time. Any reader of the Bible knows that the passage above did not become a standard for battle or for spoils. In some other battles, the Israelites had captives of any age.
There were some battles where even the cloth was not to be taken, not to mention human beings. Like the one against Jericho where only Rahab was spared.

This is what we have explained all through the thread. ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine, instruction, correction etc. We in the New covenant are at liberty to follow godly examples in scriptures. mark and candour seem to be making it a rule/command that christians MUST practice what the apostles practiced, and that tithe givers MUST practice all the law. This is what Mark and Candour have been suggesting. We say NO. The Scriptures tell us we are at liberty to follow examples as God gives us grace. We are free to walk in the faith and godliness as seen in scriptures, ALL. Not just new testament Bible but all. We would not remove from the Word of God.

mark and Candour have quoted some passages and asked what can be gained, or if we should practice them. We'd be looking at some of the passages they quoted.
Exodus 32:26-27 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Today, we are to be with those that are on the Lord's side, not on doctrine or theology's side. Folks join sides because of theology, like that is what saves them. He don;t believe in hell, i don;t believe in hell, we are brothers. That is nonsense. We are to be on the Lord's side, not on tither's side, or antitither's side. Like Jesus said (Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part )

Follow follow is not the proof that we are on the Lord's side. Preaching together or on the same pulpit is not the proof, like our friends tried to imply earlier talking about Adeboye, Oyedepo, Kumuyi and Oyakhilome. Today, if a person is not on the Lord's side, here is the attitude Jesus said to give such.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Pretty much the same attitude as found in Exodus 32v26,27. Be willing to forsake for God's sake, cut off for God's sake. Doctrine is to be formed from ALL Scripture, not from just one verse without consideration for other verses. Mark and Candour have insisted on limiting their teaching on tithe on some scripture, we are taking all. Here is another passage they quoted.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

They are asking if we are to sell everything. It appears that the context is lost in asking that question. What happened in this passage is that a man had come to ask Jesus "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He was asking WHAT TO DO to be justified, to be saved, to have eternal life. He wanted to DO something to be saved. That was the Old covenant/agreement. To be saved or justified through the Old covenant, the agreement is that you obey ALL the commandments, which is humanly impossible. And Jesus told him the conditions of the old covenant, which is keep the commandments. He thought he had kept all, Jesus in His omniscience simply showed him one that he had not kept. This is basic evangelism 101, making the sinner realise his sin. The one thing needful may be different for each individual. Some individuals may have 10 things needful. This was the point of the whole passage. he is showing that no man can keep all the laws TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE, to be saved. There is none good except God. ALL Scripture is profitable and inspired by God. And if we humble ourselves and ask God's Spirit, He would show us the profit and application of His word(rhema) at every instance. The New Covenant requirement for justification, salvation, eternal life is to believe in Him i.e faith.

Highyo my personnnnnnnnn. Happy New Year.

peterphd: You are not in a position to say if I'm a Christian or not just as you cannot tell a catholic he's not a Christian.You discovered Jesus because he's the one that they drummed into your ears everyday.you have Indian Christians? Well, we have asari as a Muslim in Christian ijaw land.Do NOT say Muslims are not saved because they worry for you as being in need of a saviour.Jesus isn't the only person in history to have claimed divine origin so late him prove this by appearing at the UCL final.When you say God,you do not speak of only the Christian one but of all of them even those older than the bible god.The fact that you don't wanna accept evolution doesn't mean you should claim one out of a million gods created us without evidence.Your fellow Christians are busy supporting evolution on the Noah's ark thread saying Noah took only one kind of bear and polar and grizzly bears evolved from one in just a few thousand years.

You were never a christian. Jesus was drummed into your ears perhaps, hy did you not discover Him? Why did my indian friends discover Him? You do not know much about islam, beat it. Jesus does not need to prove Himself, when you are tired of the load of your sins, He'd be waiting for you.

scarred9jan: Dude, I wonder why you are still discussing with these people.. Like seriously. Their delusion is beyond redeeming..

Are you so deluded that you could see a claim by Buffet or Gates that God does not exist? You saw that in the quote? You need to be serious.

macof: Since you just want to read something
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olódùmarè
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_mythology

Oral tradition and mythology? Thats what you are presenting?

When God talks about rain, it is not limited to water. God can send down His blessings as rain i.e using the language and word rain. Ever heard of showers of blessing? That's the picture. It's not limited to water, and BTW blessings is not limited to physical or material things. God rained manna in the wilderness, not just water. God can rain righteousness on the 'thirsty'. Of course, we recall that God can rain fire.
Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

God is not to be limited in how He chooses to bless or reward obedience. Like we have also said, the blessing of God is multifaceted. It comes through various means. If God is true, and is able to do what He has said, then we safely say that God blesses through tithes. We should note again that blessings don't only come through tithing. i expect someone somewhere to lift the previous sentence without adding the surrounding sentences for clarity. Blessings don't only come through tithing, but blessings come through tithing. Many antitithers would vigorously refuse the bolded, but would gleefully quote the first part(for blackmail). Blessings come through prayers too. Again, let me shout this time. BLESSING IS NOT LIMITED TO MATERIAL OR PHYSICAL THINGS. For illustrations, let me talk about material aspect. God blesses people materially through prayers. There are many people though who are praying and are not materially blessed in a sense. God blesses through hardwork, but there are millions who are working hard and are not materially blessed. God blesses through many means, studying the Word(Joshua 1v8), through righteousness, through diligence and persistence, through honesty, through giving. Tithing is a form of giving, but let me talk about other forms. Many people give, they give to poor, to church, to everything, yet they are not materially blessed. These do not negate the fact that God uses these mediums to bless people. In fact, God even blesses unrighteous and evil people according to Matthew 5v45.

It is another realm and topic or discussion to explain those intricacies. It would be ignorance of scriptures and of the power of God, carnality, to conclude that any promise of God is not yea and amen. Let God be true, but every man a liar.
We have shown earlier and would remind us that money is not just paper money or silver. money is a medium of exchange. Jesus Himself showed that whatsoever His disciples received(including edibles) counted for their pay or wages. When you give, you have paid, and when you pay, you have given. That was the way Jesus the Word understood it.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Here , He is equating edibles as pay or salary.
(CEV) Stay with the same family, eating and drinking whatever they give you, because workers are worth what they earn. Don't move around from house to house.
(GNB) Stay in that same house, eating and drinking whatever they offer you, for workers should be given their pay. Don't move around from one house to another.
(WEB) Remain in that same house, eating and drinking the things they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Don't go from house to house.

Whether you earn dollars or edibles, or agric produce. It is your pay, and as a labourer, you are worthy of it. What the apostles got was their pay. The scriptures record that Abraham tithed. The same account is recorded both as giving tithes and paying tithes, it is the same thing. Even under the law, the tithes that the Levites offered was said to be GIVEN.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.

The pharisee said that he GAVE tithes of ALL that he possessed. So whether you say that you give, or pay, or offer, or render, all that one na english. All that the tithe is, is the tenth of a whole. If the whole is agric produce, the tenth of that whole is a tithe. If the whole is non agric produce, the tenth of that whole is still a tithe. Tithe is tithe in scriptures, there is nothing like monetary tithe, or non-monetarty tithe or whatever such terms. These are all man made terms. A tithe is simply a tenth, or 10% of a whole. There is no bondage in it. Some people give out 100%, and other greater percents than a tenth. Giving is not bondage. There is no bible verse that says that, this is an invention of men, some wisecrack. Sin is bondage, sickness is bondage, affliction is bondage. These are what the Scripture teaches. Giving out 10% of anything is not bondage. God's promises are all over scriptures, and we are expecting many of them, found both in the Old Testament Bible, and in the New Testament bible. Faith is key to receiving, not just location.


END

REBUTTING M6

We thank God for how far we've gone in this discussion. Like we say, we do hope that we are all learning as against 'shifting goal posts'. Thus far, we've emphasized that one reason and foundation why we take all God's Word serious is that ALL Scripture is inspired and PROFITABLE, among many things, for doctrine and for instruction. Doctrine is not limited to some scriptures but to ALL Scripture. We need to note this as we form our doctrines, study and views concerning the knowledge of God and His Word. Mark and Candour have stated that "The Blessings and Curse associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems". We want to say that God is not limited and was not limited, being the same yesterday, today and forever. He is not limited in what He can do, how He can reward and how He can punish.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

BTW, ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems are not blessings as it were. Now, if a farmer does not have an harvest, i think in my little experience that that would lead to loss of jobs, and ill health, and even mechanical problems. Problems are related, it seems.
If you've seen problem before, you'll notice that it does not respect grammar or letter.

Nonetheless, our friends have tried to use Malachi 3 to defend their reason for not tithing. They are not tithing because blessings and curses associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems, and their reference is Malachi 3. Well, to be fair on the Bible, when God speaks, He has no special preferences or partiality for farmers. The mature audience is expected to understand that what is applicable for farmers is for everybody. Sowing and reaping is not limited to farming or agriculture in Bible language/speak. Harvest time and seedtime is not just about food and edibles. This is seen all over scriptures, it is easier to see and observe this than this miracle of not seeing it. Let me quickly give a few instances.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Here was God speaking to Adam. Imagine if we say the blessing and curse associated with the fall of man was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems. That should make sense right? At least, it would for our good friends. At least, He's talking about the ground, eating, thorns and herbs and bread. On a serious note, we do hope that everyone knows that the scope is more than that. Farmers are not the only ones bearing the brunt today.
Observe this passage below.
Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

The Exodus passage is talking to the whole nation of God's people for many generations. Can you imagine if one was dogmatic about the interpretation, to insist that the promised blessing for this people serving God is for farmers, or for food only. What happens to carpenters, lawyers, blacksmiths, accountants, pharisees and scribes, that serve the Lord their God? he will bless the farmers alone? Or food alone? This kind of bread and butter thing, i do not think that is what we should limit it to. Breaking bread from house to house, i'm sure Goshen my friend will agree strongly here with me, it is not just talking about edibles. Praying give us this day our daily bread, encompasses more than bread and fish. It affects every profession and everyone who puts their trust in God. When you bring the tithes into the storehouse, the promise is that of a good harvest. Harvest is not limited to agricultural produce. harvest is simply output, proceeds, income. What a man sows is what he reaps. You do not only reap agricultural produce. Anyone looking for a good harvest needs to sow well. It would have being thought that this is very simple and basic enough for anyone to understand and grasp. Its unfortunate, the rigidity and the limitations we place on the Word that it fails to bear fruit. And when i say bear fruit, its not just edibles, please. The world itself is God's field, and when harvest time comes, God will not be looking out for just agricultural crops. As we evangelise the world, let us note that the harvest is plenty, and the field is white already. This is language so simple, i imagined that we would all understand it.
Joh 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Jesus spoke to fishermen about becoming fishers of men. Is there nothing for a christian lecturer or doctor to learn from such a passage? Is that passage only applicable to people in the riverine areas, or in the fishing occupation? We have already explained, and it has not being refuted, that the isreal society was an agrarian one. By that, we mean that the major economy had to do with agriculture. Everyone was involved. Agriculture was their life, it was what made their world go round, it was their measure of hardwork, of success, of prosperity, of life. Today, they say money i.e paper money makes the world go round. In Jesus/Bible days, that was not the case. it was not uncommon for a grown man not to have money/silver. Peter and John had no silver and gold available at a time. Even Jesus had no silver to offer tribute at a time, but had to provide from a fish's mouth. The point is that it was not as relevant as today. Folks were rich in cattle and sheep. Rich men were building barns and larger barns. The description of being rich had to do with agric produce, that was their main measure of wealth. So, when God is talking of prosperity or poverty, these are the terms that you would usually find. This affects the whole nation, not just farmers. And BTW, it would be very difficult to assert that every family was not into farming of some sort. Even in today's societies, if you go to the rural places, you'll see that they have their farms irrespective of whatever other profession. That is why you may not need that much money(paper money) in such places. they'd argue with you that one cannot starve in his village or hometown. Someone earning 10,000 in the village may enjoy life more than someone else earning far more in some urban place. Ask corp members. There are doctors, teachers, blacksmiths, scribes etc with farms. It is a similar society tht is called agrarian, and it is such that Israel operated.

Our reply will come in by the end of today. We want to use the opportunity to remind us of some of the rules of the thread. In particular we restate

1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling,
maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to
make an opponent look bad.

9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible,
the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

Indeed, Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple NOT TO THE APOSTLES. Also, early christians paid MORE THAN 10% to the apostles, making nonsense of the present day fear of giving the apostles 10%. Same applies to all christians, whether jew or Gentile, they gave MORE THAN 10% in the church. An apostle wrote to a gentile church to give in proportion. The text rightly states every one of you. This was the mode of operation in an early church. They had a specific day, and EVERY ONE was to give. i guess every one means EVERY ONE? Free will every one. Newsflash, i say it again, i give my tithes free will.

Mark and candour have said "God doesn’t change but he has the right to change his program." They only forgot to tell us any Scripture where God changed His will on the tithe.The Scriptures are very clear on the sabbath, on circumcision, and on sacrifices, and on who we are in Christ Jesus. We are waiting for similar scriptures on tithes. Paul told the Corinthians "Let us keep the feast", but candour feels that is stunted growth. They have refused or forgotten to tell us what to do with the weightier matters of the law like mercy, judgement and faith. They've being loudly silent about the greatest laws of love as found in the book of Moses.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[25]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a school master.

Just like we have explained in the Acts 15 passage, any one using the law to justify or save himself is wasting his/her time. We gave them no such command. We are justified by faith. This passage is clearly about justification. The law does not justify us.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Before faith came, that is before the new testament/agreement, people tried to be justified by the law. To be justified by the law, you have to obey everything, which BTW is almost impossible. But now that faith is, we are justified by faith. this is the thrust of the whole epistle as it were. may God give us understanding. Giving the tenth is a form of giving. We would like to ask Mark and candour, can the tithe be given? We see tithe given in the scriptures, we want to know if they have a different opinion.

In 70AD the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem sacked, but today, we are the temple and the church of God.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

We now operate under the priesthood after the order of Melchisedek, Jesus Christ being our High Priest. The house of God is still here and there is still service in that house. There is none of Jesus'words that are odd to us, even if Mark and Candour think they are odd. Jesus Christ is our Lord, Mark and Candour are not.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built a house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

One should be more careful and not in a rush, when we hear eternal words as this.
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


God spoke to us by His Son, we're hearing here that that is not true. That the Son was speaking to pharisees, and judaism. Again, whatever anyone might have said or exaggerated about the tithes, let us look at the Word of God and of Jesus who said tithes ought to be done. Let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly, not the abuses and misuses we may see or hear around us. Hell videos are not specifically tithe preaching or preachers. Hell videos say a lot of things, like about restitution, unforgiveness, stealing meat in the pot, taking matchstick without permission etc. We are talking about Bishop Oyedepo, or any of the popular preachers that see tithes in their Bibles, coming to make those statements that you guys implied to be very common. i have never heard them say it, i have only heard antitithers say it. It is very common with antitithers, they preach that often. God spoke at sundry times i.e many or various times by the prophets. Let us not limit those sayings of God to mere traditions of men. God has spoken to us by His Son Jesus. One of the things He said was that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE, AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.


END

When we attempt to add to God's Word to suit our doctrine, let us be very careful on the way we insist. God’s final Word is superior to ALL. We need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. Tithe remains simply a tenth. That is so basic and so simple that even the uneducated in Israel understood it. Today, we seem to know too much book like King Agrippa might say.
Our attempt here is to discuss tithes, from a biblical perspective, not about top echelons of the various empires in Christianity (whatever that means). A christian should be moved and rooted on the Bible, on Christ, not on points or lots of lies he/she heard about tithe or any doctrine. i have heard a lot of lies about Jesus, lot of lies about God, lots of lies about heaven and hell, lots of lies about holiness. But those are not the things that form my worldview. We encourage all our brethren to let their views, understandings and beliefs be centred on God, not on whatever lies or abuses they might have heard.

Mark and Candour ask "But did the Holy Spirit ask Christians to tithe?" The real question should be did the Holy Spirit ask christians not to tithe? This is one of the many questions our friends are shying away from. The Holy Spirit inspired all Scripture. By implication, He approves of ALL Scripture, including Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, and the Old Testament Bible. Through James, He calls it the royal law, and the perfect law of liberty. Through Peter, He says it is a MORE SURE Word of prophecy. Through John, He says "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. " Through Paul, He says "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" So, its a question of belief or unbelief. Do Mark and Candour believe Luke 11:42? Do they believe all things written in the LAW and in the prophets? Or do they think it is Judaism, and written to pharisees, or whatever other excuse?

Mark and candour quoted Jesus, someone who was talking to people under Mosaic law. They said
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

They imply that one thing Jesus could not tell them was thou shall not tithe. But we thought the common view of antitithers was that they were not tithing already? How then is it one of the many things they could not bear to hear? How did He or the Holy Ghost forget to mention it specifically. It is only antitithers that continue to mention this. What the holy Ghost seemingly forgot to tell ALL the apostles, what He could not tell Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Kumuyi, Adeboye, and many other christians who claim to have the Holy Ghost and produce Holy Ghost like acts in the contemporary times. Candour insinuates that He has told himself and Mark, and maybe Kunle. Sorry, we don't buy that.

Now, indeed, IF the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Acts 15 does not start from verse 28. Verse 1 clearly states the root of the matter.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

All of Scriptures, including the epistles of the apostles are not averse or antagonistic against the law or the Old testament Bible. They quote them freely and speak great things of them, using them as buttress, foundation and support for what they have to say. How do we then try to use one chapter to contradict the rest of Scriptures?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Acts 15:1 clearly shows us that the problem was not the law, but that some people wanted others to keep it TO BE SAVED.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

This is what brought the controversy. If circumcision was the controversy, Paul would not circumcise someone in the very next chapter. He would not have later said
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
(GNB) For whether or not a man is circumcised means nothing; what matters is to obey God's commandments.

There is NOTHING WRONG with obeying the Word of God, and tithing is found in the Word of God. It is something Jesus said ought to be done. The problem however would arise if we are obeying it TO BE SAVED, or telling others to obey it TO BE SAVED. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works of obedience. Like James and the early church, we do not give such commandment. We do not tell others to keep any law to be saved.
Again, When Candour and Mark imply that tithing is to burden gentile Christians. They are quick to forget that they just said we "should therefore stop picking [b]convenient practices from the law". We hope that they soon make up their minds, and be consistent on whether tithing is a convenient practice or a greater burden. At their fancy, they say that it is a convenient practice. Are we jumping from goal post to goal post in order to make points, or are our hearts open to understand the issues at hand? It is up to each individual.[/b]

As an aside, or a bonus, let me add this. Candour says "Apostle James himself a Jew was still carrying out the traditions of his fathers", i think we should note and differentiate between traditions of men and commandments of God. The Bible is not tradition of men, it is the commandment of God. We should not glibly conclude or imply that the Old Testament Bible is tradition of men. Jesus did not think it so. i'm afraid now to quote Jesus, dunno the next thing folks will say about Him. Well, i must quote Him.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

This quote above shows Jesus making a distinction between the traditions of men and the commandments of God.
The tradition of men- as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things. If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban.

The commandment of God- Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother.

Notice that the Word or Commandment of God was what Moses said, that is Honour your father and mother. The problem was not the tradition, the problem was that they upheld the tradition above at the the expense of God's commandments. They rejected the commandment of God, that they may keep their tradition. What James told Paul to do was a commandment of God on purification. There is nothing wrong with it. However as we have explained earlier, it is like using a pager instead of a smartphone, or using a lantern, when a diesel generator is available now. GENTILE BELIEVERS WERE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE PRACTICES IN THE LAW TO BE SAVED.

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL R6


We have explained that we are not under the law. That means we are not boxed in or limited to the law. It does not mean that we are averse to or antagonistic against the law. The law qualifies under ALL SCRIPTURE, and the man of God has the privilege of using it and other scriptures as the Spirit of God leads.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Old Testament Bible (genesis to malachi) qualify under ALL SCRIPTURE. Hopefully, Mark and candour can understand that from henceforth. Our scope is beyond Moses. Its like when a person/believer says that he is not stealing or murdering just because of the laws of the land. That he has something more than the laws of the land driving him, some other force or motivation. Its not that he doesn't respect the land or is averse to it, but there is something else, something more, driving his actions. May God give us understanding.

We are grateful to God that Mark and Candour have not denied that Jesus said that tithes ought to be done. In fact, they talk about "the verse in which Jesus said tithing should be done". They also said "The Lord Jesus Christ, during His Earthly ministry did not condemn tithes"

Now, to their excuses. A good christian ought to know that the Bible is God speaking to him/her. That is the way all followers of God have looked at the Word of God. Serious followers of God do not pass the buck. Israelites in Jerusalem did not look at the Word of God as God speaking to Israelites in the wilderness. Jesus did not look at the Bible as speaking to one particular generation. He was wont to say things like the below.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Some smart alec among the audience might have gone to read Isaiah 29 and concluded that Isaiah was talking to his(Isaiah's) generation, or to some other fellows. Well, like we have said from the start, we honour God and we honour His word as relevant to us. We take ALL SCRIPTURE as profitable to us, and we believe fully that Luke 11:42 is Scripture. Going by the antitithers' logic of pick and choose, the words Jesus spake are irrelevant to them. They are only useful to be admired, or perhaps read, but not applicable or profitable to them. Some have insinuated that obeying the words of Jesus is tantamount to practising Judaism. What Mark and Candour are telling us is that the words Jesus spake to pharisees are useless, and have passed away, to paraphrase. Below by the way are some other words Jesus said to pharisees.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The above are some few of the salient truths that Jesus spoke to pharisees. We do hope that the above are not irrelevant to to our antitithe brethren. BTW, there is nothing wrong with being a pharisee. Paul the apostle said he is a pharisee.
Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Now, Mark and Candour want readers to note the following, "Jesus was talking to a people under the Mosaic Law"
As in duh, that kind of applies to everything Jesus said in the gospels! He talked to and lived with such folks almost all His life. His Words are Spirit and Life, He said. Some of the questions to ask Candour and Mark is that "Is Luke 11:42 Scripture? Is Luke 11:42 Spirit and Life? Is Luke 11:42 truth or not? Has Luke 11:42 passed away?"

They also say "The tithes Jesus said the Pharisees were tithing were tithes that the Law required; i.e., agricultural tithes." Fortunately for all literates who can read, Jesus Christ made no such distinction, neither did the Bible. Tithe is simply referred to as tithe or a tenth. No scripture makes distinctions or separations of which one is agricultural tithe, or which one is Moses'tithe, or which one is God's tithe, or which one is Jacob's tithe. Tithe is simply recorded as tithe or a tenth in all Scripture.
We await Mark and Candour to produce scriptures that state any distinction or difference in tithes. We have shown how Scriptures record people UNDER THE LAW giving tithes of more than agricultural produce. Here are some AGAIN.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
(GNB) I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.'
(ISV) I fast twice a week, and I give a tenth of my entire income.'

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
(GNB) As soon as the order was given, the people of Israel brought gifts of their finest grain, wine, olive oil, honey, and other farm produce, and they also brought the tithes of everything they had.

When the writer of the hebrews was talking about tithes, both before the law and under and after the law, he made no distinction or separation of tithes.
BEFORE- Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
UNDER- Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
AFTER- Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Oga strikly, i dey hail oh. Happy New Yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and well done sir.

davidylan: Nah c'mon lets be honest here. What have wars to do with abortion? Is that a serious question? lol abortion is murder (as you say)... last i checked, war is committing willful mass murder. Perhaps now you have a better idea how they are connected now? Yes you do not want war, but are you as vociferously against war as you are against abortion? Do you consider soldiers to be sinners as you consider women who commit abortion even when it is to save their lives?

i asked for patience na. You are clearer now. i don't like to assume for people or put them in a particular worldview that they may not actually belong to. That's why i was cautious and asking for clarifications. abortion is murder (as you say), indeed as i say. i guess you are not able to say? If there is a thread supporting war here on NL, i do not mind being vociferous(whatever that means) against it. You seem to be over-assuming things. Not all soldiers are at war or go to war, why do you generalise them? If soldiers commit sin, they are sinners.

Judgement may not be murder but capital punishment IS murder... i get tired of folks who want to worm their way out of uncomfortable positions by playing semantics with words. Do you or do you not consider capital punishment to be willfully taking a life similar to what happens with abortion?

Capital punishment is not murder. Murder is a crime and illegal, capital punishment is for someone convicted of committing a crime punishable by capital punishment. i guess to you, once it comes out from the hen, its the same thing, shit or egg.

I have been very clear that abortion should only be permitted in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother... ectopic pregnancies and rape of a minor are two clear examples.

i'm sorry you were not clear to me, wise one. When i'm not clear about something, i try to ask questions. Forgive me. So, you oppose abortion except in the case of ectopic pregnancies and in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother?

In the context of the topic (your question is worded deceptively), i choose abortion over certain death to the woman - that is the THIRD time i am having to answer that question.

you are not answering my question. You are answering what you think is/should be my question. Here is my question again, If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?
Except you equate abortion to be sin. By the way, ectopic pregnancy is not certain death, you showed us that some people survived it?

Please enough of this gullible nonsense. When you have cancer you go to the hospital for help not sit on your hands quibbling about "levels of faith". Despite our higher "level of faith", nigerians have a much shorter lifespan than the japanese.
I believe in prayer of faith, i also believe God gave us medicine to be able to take informed decision such as the need to terminate ectopic pregnancies when it is CLEAR that the fetus will not be viable and will most likely lead to the death of the mother.

Nna gullible nonsense? i don suffer oh. Oga David, caring one. Please, let not your wrath be turned against me, for i do not recall being the cause of your wrath. i'm not against going to the hospital or using medicine. i thought i even said that already? i did not mention anybody or nation's higher levels of faith. i do not have such stats in my possession. There are certain levels of faith that are more than doctors' reports. There is what is still called miracle. There are humans still, who against hope believe in hope. They are called believers, evidently i think. Prayers do work, sorry, i have seen prayer work, and i trust you have too. i know you know so much doc, but i know that prayers work, and that faith is the evidence of things not seen. i do not think that is gullible nonsense. You cannot say that it is clear that a fetus will not be viable, when you gave us link that there are some people that gave birth with this same ectopic thing. What if they had aborted? Now, we have a very low percentage of pregnancies with the ectopic condition, so do not complain of the live birth cases being about less than 2% of all ectopic pregnancies.
i asked if you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? Do you not care enough to pray for me? i covet your prayers, that was why i asked that you pray for me. You've taken time out of your very busied schedule of not contributing in this section, to teach us about ectopic pregnancies. Kindly take sometime to pray for me as regards that request, thanks.

OLAADEGBU: Can you imagine how many babies this 180movie has saved?

Great one from Ray. Always an inspiration, thanks for sharing Ola.

peterphd: nope.i was a christian by virtue of being born into a christian family.stepping out of my comfort zone as an unbeliever?we are all unbelievers of something.you just believe one thing more than i do.You discovered jesus because he was the most popular god idea around where you were raised.Someone in india or afghanistan would have discovered other gods apart from jesus.I am not holding the koran as oppostition to your claims.I am just showing you how people can make the same claims with their holy books.Only jesus can save?yeah, only he can save because only him and his book tells us to tell children that they are bad from birth so that he dosent roast them forever.Its like me creating a computer virus,forcing you to pay for it then, getting rid of it to look like a hero.I dont think i need to try Jesus.If there is a universal god, let him come down and give evidence maybe during the world cup, ucl final or olympics.let him tell the muslims to stop slaughtering us.let him tell christians to stop discriminating because they have lost power to kill us.Let god prove himself!

No, you were not a christian. you never followed Christ, and you were never born again. You never had your sins forgiven and you never repented. A non-christian is regarded as an unbeliever. An unbeliever in God and in His Word. That is my definition, so in my definition, you are an unbeliever. i did not discover Jesus because he was the most popular god idea around, in that case, everyone would be christians because Jesus is the most popular god idea around. i guess atheism is the most popular idea around you too, or it does not apply? i have christian friends in india, come to think of it. Knowing Jesus is not necessarily about popular ideas around you. Nobody can make the same claims that Jesus Christ and christianity makes. Like i showed you, true muslins cannot claim to be saved, they simply do not know. No religion or god has come to earth as a man, died and resurrected. None offers forgiveness of sin like Jesus. All their followers are forever trying to appease them, and are never free from sin and its guilt. God has proven Himself already, we are still waiting for proof of evolution.

macof: Source? Wat you need Bible reference or wat Sorry Yoruba religion is based on oral tradition. My source is pure oral traditions from elders

hahahahahahahahahahahaha. oral tradition. Case closed.

davidylan: I answered your question TWICE. You asked that in the context of abortion (in cases where it is detrimental to the woman's life) and i very clearly chose abortion over your idea of "level of faith". Besides, i think your "question" is quite deceptive. Should a christian soldier refuse his commanders orders to shoot an enemy in favor of "level of faith"?

I wonder why you keep dodging the questions i asked by pretending i havent answered yours. That is the type of slimy deception i expect from atheists and not you.

My questions have been VERY CLEAR - since you clearly oppose abortion regardless of circumstance, does this concern for life extend to wars and the death penalty... all of which involve murder on a much larger scale? I cant imagine that any body over the age of 5 cannot understand that question.

David, David, have some patience oh, caring one. i said ou should clarify your questions for i do not understand them well. What has wars got to do with abortion? i don't want war BTW. Also, jdgement is not murder.

My questions.
Are you saying that you oppose abortion except in the case of ectopic pregnancies?

If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?
. i asked if you know about faith, if you believe there are certain levels of faith that are more than doctors' report?
i asked if you are praying for me, as regards that
prayer request that you gave me?

peterphd: you see,you aren't willing to step out of your comfort zone and try other things.The poison analogy fails here.If you see other religions as poison,what makes you think they dont want to hold on to the hope and security their own provides and to see yors as poison too?I have never thought of myself as a sinner because i rejected the doctrine of original sin even from a young age.let me ask you...don't you think you are a sinner according to the koran for not submitting to allah?

So never say that you were a christian, those are the thins it takes to be a christian. You've never stepped out of your comfort zone as an unbeliever. i was once a sinner, but i found all that i needed in Jesus. Again, leave koran alone and let's face ourselves na. No other god saves like Jesus, this is common knowledge, this is the word on the street. i have tried other things, only Jesus can save. When will you come out of your comfort zone and really try Him?

davidylan: I'm sorry, but in the case of ectopic pregnancies, i will choose to abort the fetus to save the life of my wife rather than send her to an untimely death all in the name of "level of faith"... particularly when the fetus is not going to be viable anyway.

I asked earlier and you ignored it... does your concern for life include abolition of all wars and the death penalty for murderers?

You did not answer my questions, David. This your question, kindly make it clearer, thanks. BTW, you did not answer my questions.

macof: Lmao Christians always claiming our Great supreme God as their own

Olodumare is not Jehovah...here's some basic difference
Olodumare
1. Has 400 children who are Gods like him but on a lower level than their father in the pantheon

2. doesn't interact directly with humans

3. Doesn't take sacrifice

4. Has 2 other manifestations- Olorun and Olofin

Jehovah/Yahweh
1. Has one Jewish child

2. Can interact directly with humans

3. Takes sacrifice and enjoys burnt offering

4. Has 3 manifestation- himself, his son and his messenger spirit

Now how can they be the same God?

What's your source on these information?

peterphd: Even followers of other religions can say they've been sinners.Vishnu, Muhammed, alusi to can be said to have the answers of life.Have you ever taken a day to assume nothing and just ask yourself why you see folly in the over a million religions in the world but not in yours? Have you stepped out of your comfort zone ( your household religion) to try at least 3 other religions? Guy consider the odds of a single religion being true and tell me why I should believe any religion.

Yes, I have tried Jesus.I was born into a Christian family.

i'm not assuming things, i know what i was and what i am. i am what i am through the grace of God. i'm okay with the answers i've got. i've also seen people from various religions who found answers in God that are not in their religions. You don't have to taste poison to conirm its danger, do you? Have you ever realised that you were a sinner and then repented of your sins and served God?

davidylan: Empty rhetoric. Paul knew of a certain thing called faith and yet still recommended some medicine for Timothy's stomach problems. A woman with an ectopic pregnancy needs immediate medical attention, not some ignorant mule playing away her life in the name of grossly misplaced "faith".

Murder is a sin... perhaps you also hate wars and abhor the death penalty? Afterall i'm sure you have faith that we should just let boko haram run riot on the nation and pray them away no?

Should babies who have congenital malformations that are incompatible with life (like babies with Tay-Sachs syndrome who normally never live beyond the age of 4) be left to develop to term?

Caring one, who chose not to answer my question but called it an empty rhetoric. If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?
i use medicine and tell folks to use medicine. i have not said anything against using medicine. i asked if you know about faith, and you started all these epistle. Hope you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? Caring one, life itself is a risk, aborting babies is a risk, not aborting them is a risk. There is a level of faith that does not respond to what the doctor has to say, do you believe that, doc?

i would not want to talk much. i think that if one did not hear these many lines, he would not hear even if i wrote ten times more many lines on this. Nonetheless, i find it good to touch on an issue that i've being repeating about the New Covenant life. The New covenant life is a life of faith. Just like the illustration given earlier about the law/Old covenant being like a school teacher but the New covenant being like college. In the primary school or junior school, it is more of force. You're late, you get flogged or punished. you did not do your homework, or cut your nails, or wash your socks/stockings, or you wore black sandals instead of brown. So many pesky details and punishments involved under the school tutor. that is the way the law was. But under the new covenant, though one should not be late, should do the homework, be clean, follow school regulations etc, there is some more maturity in a sense. Your lecturer is not likely going to flog you, else we'll come make fun of your school on this very forum, as a glorified secondary school This college life is more like the New Covenant life. It is a life of "ought tos" It is a testament of LET HIM HEAR.

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit a hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

The final chapter of the Bible sums it up 'nicely'
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

People should not be trying to force out an answer. Nothing is exactly by force in a sense. It's hard to pin stuff to hell for instance. Someone's asking will you go to hell if you don't tithe, or pray, or go to church, or read the Bible. The new covenant is not customarily with immediate consequences like the Old was. There is a ought to about the whole thing, not exactly a forced kind of life. Ought is more of a should be case, a desire. God wants us to obey Him of our free will. That's more like His perfect will. If you're praying, or tithing, or doing anything, that you are doing it willingly. That is when thee is utmost joy. Yes, sometimes as soldiers, we may do stuff that we may not love, but the normal life the new testament aims is one of ought to.

1. You ought to tithe.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

2. You ought to be healed/delivered
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

3. You ought to pray.
Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

4. Christ ought to suffer. He could have called twelve legions of angels.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

5. You ought to serve one another.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

6. You ought to obey God.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

7. You ought to support the weak.
Act 20:35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

As we round off this presentation, the summary again is that Christ Jesus said that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE. And he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. In the words of trustman on the sister thread, "God’s final Word - is superior to ALL. We need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on."


END

PRESENTING R6 Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of the christian faith. He is the One christians are supposed to follow, the One who ought to be obeyed rather than men. The above Scripture was spoken by Him while He was here on earth physically. Anyone that knows Jesus knows that He is the Truth. He is the Word made flesh, the Way personified. Jesus Christ said Himself that the words that He speaks are Spirit and Life. Therefore, we ought to give the more earnest heed to His words.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Did you notice that three different writers wrote the exact same words above? My words shall not pass away.

For emphasis, consider these other translations below.
(GW) The earth and the heavens will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

(ISV) Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear."
(LITV) The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away, never!

This one is enough sermon to meditate on. If we would indeed ruminate on these, we would understand the gravity of the words of Jesus. Jesus is the same forever. He is the same yesterday, today and forever more.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.


In other words, He has not changed His doctrine or opinion. He has not changed His stance and advice. He said;
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In other words, He has the final say. He has all authority. He is in perfect agreement with God the Father of light.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

It would be good if we gave heed to what He said about tithes. He said
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here it is AGAIN from Matthew, so that we can be doubly sure He's not making a slip in opinion.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These ought ye to have done. His words cannot pass away. He could not be giving advice that is not the will of God to anyone, even if such a fellow is the devil. These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Are we to leave judgement, mercy and faith undone? Certainly not!

Understand that Jesus Christ had the fullness of the Holy Ghost, He was given the Spirit without measure. He had God with Him.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Imagine that this Omniscient Jesus, having the Omniscient God and the Spirit in Him. Yet He never condemned tithes. i mean, He should have known this purported "danger of the tithes" that antitithers go on and on about. He could have warned us about tithes, instead HE SAID "THESE OUGHT YE TO HAVE DONE" This, coming from my Lord, is good enough for me. It is good enough for us. Jesus NEVER condemned tithes. The Holy Spirit in all holiness, speaking expressly in all those epistles, NEVER CONDEMNED TITHING. He NEVER had one issue against the tithe, not even one. None of the apostles EVER wrote anything to discourage anyone from tithing. Twenty seven (27) books, and not one verse, to condemn or discourage anyone in any dispensation from giving the tithes. the way antitithers go on about tithes, one would think it was the infamous unpardonable sin. We have folks that have made a ministry to speak, preach and write against tithes. There are fellows on this forum who care less for many of Jesus' words and commandments, who would not be caught or found preaching against sin, or speaking out against sin, folks who would never say anything for the cause of Christ in the face of atheists and other glaring unbelievers, but are so vehement when the T word is mentioned. Its sometimes so bad that i've read someone say that an atheist is closer to God and better than a tither. But thank God for God. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever has it on records saying that tithes ought to be done.

No apostle, no disciple, no scripture, not one Bible verse that says tithing is wrong, or ought not to be done.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

davidylan: You're fortunate, ectopic pregnancies are merely topics you read on wiki... for a woman it could mean the difference between life and death. That is why you have the luxury to wax lyrical about how all abortion is bad... it doesnt affect you so why should you care.

Wise one and caring one, you missed this. If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?
Do you know of a certain thing called faith? i hope you still do.

macof: pls answer my questions
If Yahweh is the true God and Jesus is his only son and heir to the throne what's your take on Olodumare that has numerous children?

You are always displaying your ignorance of Scriptures, and other matters. Jehovah is Chukwu and Olodumare. Jesus is not His only son. What throne are you talking of? God has numerous children. Ever heard the phrase "children of God"?

davidylan: Neither, oh all knowing one. To each his own. If you've ever had a relative choose between abortion and certain death, i'm sure many here would not be so wedded to a dogmatic point of view. Ectopic pregnancies will kill if not aborted. Pray your wife or sister doesnt get one.

i am a man like you oh wise one. Worship God. If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose?

BTW, i read that ectopic pregnancy is not certain death. i saw it on wiki, doc. Join me in prayers, would you?

peterphd: How do you know it is original? Others also claim they have the original god.why don't you religionists hold a mount Carmel-esque contest afterall your gods are true and shouldn't be afraid of competition.You do not know if something is original till you've seen fakes...have you ever been a pagan or Muslim for a day?

i was once a sinner pete, i know the difference. Jesus gives the answer to all the fundamental questions of life. Have you tried Him?