₦airaland Forum

debbleopto: I want all of you to know that there is what is refer to in the Bible that somebody fallen and somebody fallen away. these are the two states of backsliding. to fall - the individual can still repent and be saved. The Holy Spirit can and will still assist him in getting salvation. Example is that of Peter denying Christ at His first trial, but he was restore back into God's kingdom. Book of Hebrews said " today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart...". Hardness of heart makes the individual see salvation as waste of time or indefinite future.
but fallen away - the individual crossed that line. His situation is like that of fallen angels. They usually go against the true doctrine of Christ. Some with vehement hatred castigate Christ and his true ministers. the darkness in them hate light. When they were with Christ they gave in to seducing spirit. The same happened to Judas Iscariot at the last supper when Satan suggested he should betray Jesus. When he agreed, satan then entered his heart. So a fallen away person's heart and emotions is now being controlled by Satan.

if you're referring to frosb, i'm sorry you got it wrong. You overrate the guy, he never fell from anywhere. He was no where important in God's kingdom, just an over aggrieved ex deeper life member. We are praying for him to truly encounter the Saviour though.

This is serious. The fellows hailing the government here are either not students r do not know what they are doing as students. The ASUU people hold the lives of thousands of undergraduates, masters, phd students etc. Some of them are with your semester results ranging from current to past four semesters and even more. They know that they can well affrd to hold the government to ransom. They can always get another job. Meanwhile, they cannot be well replaced in six months. If anything, the students should be on ASUU's side in a way.
It should not be hard for the FG to sign an agreement formally r pay the lecturers compared to the national hazard of sacking and employing which is just not feasible. This is not rivers state politics, wike. No thinking person IN NIGERIA imagined that the ASUU would not be paid while they were n strike. It was always a win win for them. It is the government that ought to have foreseen this and acted earlier. Why didn't the so called 13 hour world recors meeting take place one week into the strike?

wiegraf: So, that's a yes?

i asked four questions.

Ranchhoddas: pick anyone,just answer the question.is it right for me to assume that the people in or that will be in heaven can rebel against God since according to you,something perfect can fail?

i'll pick realities. There is no point or need for vain assumptions. We deal with what is on ground, the facts on ground. Not with maybes. i showed you how something seemingly perfect could reasonably spoil and it showed that Adam ws created good and went rogue as it were. That is the reality before us. Deal with the facts, not daydreams.

wiegraf: Bros, logic 101, you can't be reasonable without being a 'slave' to reason to reason. This is really simple.

OK, can god make 1+1=3, yes or no pls?

Can God feed more than 5000 people with a small lad's five loaves? Can God produce rivers of water from a stone? i thought Ihe alreeady answered something along this lines? Should God be a slave?

Joagbaje: What's eating him up is inside of him . It's his frustration.

Perhaps the devourer
Happy Birthday.

Ranchhoddas: if this thing you have said is true then one can say that God can become imperfect in the future...do you agree?

Are we dealing with probabilities or with reality?

Obalende: To make it easier here is mazajes thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/254595/there-no-free-bible-enough

When the gentiles heard the word AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED. No more no less.

Don't resort to original Hebrew translations, long winded arguments etc to hide this truth!

Talking of links and threads, hopefully, here is one you can also peruse. It may be of help THIS

Obalende: Image123 you have it all wrong. Jesus foretold that only a select remnant few will go to heaven. Why do you ignore this truth like a hypocrite? There was even a parable of the sower that says among Christians only few will make it. By design therefore majority were meant to go to hell... they did not choose because the bible clearly says that the saved are fore ordained. No freewill.

What are you saying and what are we saying? If you want to ask a question kindly ask politely and intelligently. Do you have anything to say to what i have already said? i foresee that all you would do if i answered you is shift the goal yet again, and ask yet another qustion on some other passage that seems to confound you.

Ranchhoddas: what you are saying is that man was created perfect but he fell.does this make sense to you?if it can fall then it is not perfect. I don't know how else to explain that.Invest in a good dictionary pls.

Yes, what i am saying and what the Bible says is that man was created perfect or as the Bible better puts it GOOD. It makes perfect sense. "if it can fall then it is not perfect" actually makes little sense. Any goods can be manufactured in perfect condition but it can spoil, hope that make some sense? A car can be produced in excellent condition, but it can still be damaged. Doesn't mean that it was never in excellent condition. A fruit can be formed perfectly but it can spoil or over ripen. A human child can be born with no defect but can later on in life become deformed due to sickness or accident. This are all things we see around us every time.
Lionel Messi, a brilliant soccer player, does not always take brilliant shots. Not all his passes are brilliant, yet he remains a brilliant player. While this is not the case with God, i'm just bringing up more illustrations that show that there really is nothing so unreasonable or out of common reason in what you are asking. It's just that most unbelievers are too lazy to really think. i do not have the kind of faith unbelievers have, they have so much faith in rubbish.

wiegraf: You too, is Yahweh subject to reason please?

i actually do not understand your question. If you are asking if God is reasonable, then yes. If you are asking if God is a slave of reason, then no.

[quote author=frank3.16]can the first bold be applied to God? if not pls stop bringing it up, it makes me think of ur God as just a human.

second bold sounds more like a joke... u are just trying too hard to defend what is obvious to you. what fall? a perfect God created a perfect (you chose to use the word 'good' for reason best known to two of us) being, and his perfect creation FALLS and it is the creations fault. pls this is religious section and not joke section.

if i go back to the first bold... who do u actually blame when intelligent inventors invent unbrilliant things?[/quote]i was asked to explain how a PERFECT manufacturer manages to manufacture imperfect goods, i explained that. God did not make an imperfect good. We're trying to help you REASON by bringing in examples you should readily relate with. It's so easy for me to give you lines like you can't understand spoiritual things(like some folk already chattered). i did not bring it up, someone asked.

How does the second bold sound like a joke, it rubbishes your unbelief? There is no hard try, these truths are plainly written in scriptures. Everything that God made was good. Deal with that.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
The above is the reason why i used the word 'good', if you have any other reasonable reason, kindly make it plain for the benefit of all. i thought this to be the religion section and not the religious section, perhaps you missed your way. If you want to discuss on the religion section about Yahweh, be ready to have some knowledge of what His words(the Bible) say.
If a perfect creation falls, then it is the creation's fault because of FREEWILL, duh. Again, when you say "intelligent inventors invent unbrilliant things", that analogy does not apply BECAUSE God did not make man in the condition that he is today. man fell, gerrit?

Mr Troll: @bold, lol. just lol.

You prove time and again that you have little or no idea of what you are talking about. Religion is different from righteousness. One can be religious but not righteous.

@green, evidence pls. we don't do lame assertions here.

Any nation based on righteous principles, behaviours and foundation continues to be exalted till tomorrow. Again, it shows you have not the faintest idea of what righteousness entails. Righteousness INCLUDES doing the morally right things, which include honesty, hardwork, justice, charity, diligence. These for instance are prevalent in any nation that is to be exalted.

@blue, do you know me in real life?

no one has to know you in real life to know that you look at others askance because they do not share your belief or viewpoint. Except you do not understand the meaning of that, yet again. This thread is enough evidence to the casual reader that you view theists suspiciously.

i just took pains to reply you. you really didn't make any sense.

You had to, its not the usual lazy thinking you're dealing with.

macof: I have

I repented by going back to my ancestral beliefs

What does repentance mean to you?

Kay 17: As to foresight true.

Test and temptation are the same.

Good for you, good.

Ranchhoddas: stylishly avoiding the important things.He will not force you to live with him but He will burn you for eternity if you don't worship Him regardless of how good you lived your life.this is appeal to force(argumentum ad baculum)and also you did not explain how a PERFECT manufacturer manages to manufacture imperfect goods(i really want to hear ur explaination)

What are the important things, pessimism? Once man is created or born, he lives forever in a sense. There are only two destinations, heaven and hell. Heaven is for overcomers, for those that are refined by the tests. The qualifcations for overcoming are glaring, plain and accessible. It is faith in God. What do you do with what you do not need? What do you do with corrupt files on your computer?
i've seen a brilliant inventor invent unbrilliant things. They say genius is 99% perspiration. Thomas Edison managed to make many useless things befre he got it right. Today's dullards can carry out greater calculations than geniuses like Einstein and Newton could. How manage? These things do manage to happen. However, God the perfect One never made man imperfect. Man was created good. He became imperfect in the event popularly known as the fall.

Kay 17: I'm sorry about my late replies.

We can agree that we are not responsible for Adam's actions neither did we influence his actions, yet we do suffer the consequences from his actions by the mere fact we are his descendants. In the same way a deformed baby suffers from his mother's negligence and drunkness, same way we suffer from our government's bad decisions, and sufferings from the actions of others.

And we yet have an idea of justice and fairness.

If God deliberately temps Adam, he did that with a foresight of Adam's reaction. Meaning God did approve the Fall of Creation.

Good, no problem, it's not instant messaging na.
God did not tempt Adam, He tested Adam. Satan tempted Eve. Just to set the records straight.
Now, having foresight is not necessarily equate to approval. An intelligent investor might have accurate foresight of future economy, doesn't mean he approves it. A metereologist might have foresight of weather conditions, without necessarily approving it.

Ranchhoddas: i take no pleasure in punishing or seeing anybody punished for not adhering to an imported religion.i am looking forward to ur response sir

That's a godly stance if i may say. God takes no pleasure in punishing or seeing anybody punished too.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .

Ranchhoddas: and the more innumerable people that will not 'overcome' will be barbequed for all eternity by the PERFECT God that created them without their permission in the first place.how do you make sense of this things or does the word PERFECT mean something else to you?

Now, whilst God has no delight in punishing anyone, He would not force anybody to live in Heaven with Him forever and ever, or without their permission like you said. Anyone who does not overcome is not fit for the kingdom of God. Its so simple. Even companies here on earth have standards. You would not because there is so much unemployment in the country then employ people that are unemployable. There has to be a standard. Manufacturers have standard goods, goods that do not meet the standard are dumped, waste, or thrashed. It is only in a corrupt and loose society that substandard goods will find their way into the market. how would you feel if a substandard good was sold to you by a reputable company?
How do you react to spoilt food, expired goods or dead animals? You separate them from the good. You don't say i bought this beans with my last kobo, therefore i will eat spoiled beans.
Any teacher striving for excellence would separate the brilliant from the unserious and the failure. Its called separating the wheat from the chaff.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor. Everyone of us, like Adam, have our chances and free will, as it were, to be a vessel unto honour or a useless vessel.

[quote author=david_hume]We've settled it already!
GOD IS NOT PERFECT!!!

Good day sir.[/quote]i recall i was talking with jayfk when you barged in with talks about goal posts. i have no idea of where and when you settled anything. You should not unreasonably settle anything and ask others to reason. You also ought to reason. Confessing severally that God is not perfect does not make Him imperfect.

JayFK: First of all, This in reference to Adam and his 'seed' us, secondly what is your definition of over coming? Today Friday 22 November, can you image say honestly that you haven't sinned today, or that you are perfect? it is in human nature to sin, can we also say therefore that it is also in Gods nature to sin? where did we inherit this from? This is just like saying a manufactured product after being tested, failed and then that same product was used as prototype for future generations of product I.e. Adam.........us, If saclux paints produced white paint, and after being tested u used it in ur hou.se and it came out yellow, will u call saclux paint perfect?

It's not really about what i my definition but God's definition of overcoming which is found all over scriptures. But to be quite direct and simple, it is stated here again.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Overcoming is simply believing in God or Jesus. Faith in God is overcoming. When one lives a life of faith in God, he overcomes. This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.
What is the work of God, it is simply having faith in Him. This is what Jesus said. One needs to start from this simple step to overcome. You need to get on the train to be transported.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent. This is how to live the overcoming life. So simple and accessible. i can say today that i have lived in good conscience before God and men. It is faith in God that helps anyone achieve this. There is a seed and power given to anyone that believes in God.
i thank God that you realise that in human nature to sin. That's great and honest admission. It's sometimes hard to show some people that there is this sin nature in man(what we call the adamic nature). This nature did not come from God. Its like when you have a child or a wife, and it is discovered that this child or wife is in your image, as it were. Having your mannerisms, your look, your hair color, nose etc. They say the boy is a carbon copy or image of his dad. Meanwhile, the boy can also learn things and ways from outside. He may look like the dad but not practice the dad's religion. He may talk and jest like the dad but never drink, smoke or womanise like the dad. And on and on. In the same vein, in some ways, we are still in the image of God, but in moral nature, we have fallen short of God's glory. When God created man, God created him good. But when he fell, there was not found any good but God.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

macof: Tell ur Bible God to repent first

okay, so please repent too.

JayFK: But but, using your human manufacturing process analogy, if a product that was manufactured and after rigorous testing fails to be adequate, who's fault is that? and what does that say about the manufacturer? Conclusion: God is not perfect

People are overcoming daily, what do you mean by failing to be adequate. Speak for yourself, there are others that are doing what it takes to be adequate. The below is what it takes.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Ranchhoddas: and the more innumerable people that will not 'overcome' will be barbequed for all eternity by the PERFECT God that created them without their permission in the first place.how do you make sense of this things or does the word PERFECT mean something else to you?

i'll come back to reply this post please. But meanwhile, kindly give me a better idea of what should happen to does who do not overcome, thanks.

[quote author=david_hume]You guys keep moving the goal post!
Here you say the creative process of man and God are the same because we're created in his image.
then later you'll say that God cannot be subjected to human ideas of morality when you guys are defending the genocide in the bible...smh[/quote]You seem to be the one moving the goal post here. You are trying to introduce another thing without settling the one on ground. That is why you have always ended up confused. Do not expect to do things the same way and expect a different result. One step at a time man, one step
AT
A
TIME.

rationalmind: Adam committed a crime so did God. Infact, God committed the worst crime. That God punished adam n went scot free is a dent on his image.

Each time you say man punishes for crime always remb God will roast a man for eternity for lying

makes sense, doesn't it?

Good of you. Adam committed a crime, that is the point of the thread. There is punishment for committing crimes, get it.

aManFromMars: All I see is God apologists. I never see God. Opening an NL account can't be that difficult.

You mean you were expecting to see God open a NL account to answer you? Remember, God is a Spirit.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Notice "MUST".

JayFK: If we are created in his image then it must be a very poor image brother, a horrible imitation, was that intended by the creator also, a flawed product or design? Because that's the only reason perfection can give rise to imperfection, if the flaws were intended

Well, at least it is clear to you now that God intended that we be tested and tried, refined as it were. We are created in His image but we fell, remember? When God created us, we were good, not flawed.

JayFK: So out of curiosity, you're comparing the manufacturing processes of humans to the manufacturing process of a perfect heavenly being? If that was the case did he also research and do simulations also? Does he engage in division of labour? maybe some angels assisted him in creating Adam, that's why he messed up, since his previous product failed and his next product also failed

Yes, i am comparing them. We are created in His image.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Kay 17: Responsibility is a consequence of freewill, whoever takes a decision is bound to the outcome and responsibility thereof. So also in the circumstance, if we descendants made no decisions affecting Adam and his fruits, how can any sense be made that we are responsible for his actions?!

Assuming we are all descendants of adam, would we all have made the exact fatal decision Adam made in spite of our freewill?

So you mean to say: God deliberately placed the Devil as a hurdle to tempt Adam and Eve?

That is reality, a product is a result of, related to. We see and face it all the time. People are responsible for other's actions and inactions. Malnutrition by a pregnant mother, and the product child might be responsible for his own deformities, blindness, lameness etc. Your laziness and sloth as a father, and your children will have o share in the punishment no doubt. They'll suffer hunger, poor health, bad schols, tarnished drems and visions etc and may even have a destroyed future. Yet the descendant made no decsion. It's same thing with gene pools, cross breeding, genotypes and blood groups, graftings etc.
We make the same fatal decisions many times over antime we choose to be independent of God or do not believe God. These was what Adam did basically.
Yep, God deliberately placed satan as an hurdle or test to be overcome. He did the same for Jesus Christ, i'm sure you know the story.

Ranchhoddas: and how does this respond to my post?

You didn't see how because you were ranting. You were going on about God reaping. simply said, slow down. Reaping time, harvest time is still future, not now. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched(that's basic primary school advice, right?). Harvest time will be the last day, Judgement day. Don't conclude the scres before the Referee blws the final whistle. There would be an innumerable multitude of people that have overcome. We know the final scores. What should flood your thoughts is "will you overcome?"

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth
that Jesus is the Son of God?

[quote author=david_hume]Why the test in the first place?
If he was such a perfect God, and he's sure of his creative abilities, why did he need to set up tests to verify?

Definitely, he knew that something might be wrong with his work. After seeing how woeful the experiment of Lucifer and co went.

But instead of owning up to his f*ck up, he deflects the blame to his miserable creation!
That is just low even by human standards![/quote]i see you're new to the world of production. When something is made, produced or manufactured, it has to be tested and refined. Tests are carred out through surveys, research and simulations. Then the product itself is tested against weather, heat, friction, time etc. You might need to tke an excursion to a manufactyring plant to appreciate production. The nice 'perfect' cars, watches, footballs, foods etc that you use daily are so tested before goods are called finished. Man's case is similar, the world is our testing ground. It is expedient that we overcome. The overcomer will inherit life, the ones who do not overcome will be thrashed. It is that basic.

[quote author=david_hume]Why the test in the first place?
If he was such a perfect God, and he's sure of his creative abilities, why did he need to set up tests to verify?

Definitely, he knew that something might be wrong with his work. After seeing how woeful the experiment of Lucifer and co went.

But instead of owning up to his f*ck up, he deflects the blame to his miserable creation!
That is just low even by human standards![/quote]i see you're new to the world of production. When something is made, produced or manufactured, it has to be tested and refined. Tests are carred out through surveys, research and simulations. Then the product itself is tested against weather, heat, friction, time etc. You might need to tke an excursion to a manufactyring plant to appreciate production. The nice 'perfect' cars, watches, footballs, foods etc that you use daily are so tested before goods are called finished. Man's case is similar, the world is our testing ground. It is expedient that we overcome. The overcomer will inherit life, the ones who do not overcome will be thrashed. It is that basic.