₦airaland Forum

rationalmind: The reason I didn't reply was because I don't think you said anything worth responding to. Here you are comparing punishment for crime here on earth with Gods ETERNAL punishment for exercising freewill he himself gave us.

And I thought its obvious what I said about smacking down was a joke.

And why do you think it incomparable? Did Adam not commit a crime? Is it okay for man to punish a crime and not okay for God to punish a crime?
i do not think we're joking here, eternity is not child's play BTW. Hopefully, yo don't lose your voice this time again, you'll need it for eternity.

Kay 17: ^^
I'm not denying we are a source, rather is it reasonable to claim you are not just responsible for decisions your parents made, but involved and actively consented to such decisions?

What were the hurdles and hardships Adam and Eve were supposed to overcome?

It appears you've misunderstood me at some point. i did not say that we are actively consenting and involved in making decisions with our ancestors. i said we are jointly responsible. i gave two reasons, one we cannot deny or separate from our source, and two, we also make poor decisions too today.

Thought one hurdle should be glaring, the devil.

Mr Troll: Apart from the comic value, Nigeria has been bludgeoned by religion for far too long. People need to open their eyes, even if they want to believe in pikiwoki it should not interfere with the running of the country. Nobody should look at me askance because i don't share their delusion. I sincerely wish for Nigeria to be a truly secular nation so hat everybody can keep their particular delusion to themselves and i can sue any church nearby for disturbing my night sleep. . .

Good you said religion, not godliness or righteousness. Righteousness continues to exalt a nation till tomorrow. However, you also have no right to look at others askance because they do not share your belief or viewpoint. Practice your demand too.
For your wishes, keep them to your self and in your fantasy world, or better still throw them away and embrace righteousness and wisdom.

Mr Troll: Why must man be tested? Were the angels tested before they were created directly into heaven? Wetin im de test us for, knowing the final outcome already. Do you people think at all?

So much presuppositions all at once. Testing BTW is like refining. Like refining gold. Gold has to be tested to bring out the quality. The smith does not leave gold unrefined just because he knows the quality.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Ranchhoddas: you reap what u sow!!is God subject to that?if He is then i can argue that He is reaping what He has sown viz:imperfect humans,negligence of duty(He could have just made the garden of eden out of bounds to lucifer or made the forbidden tree inaccessible(He has done it to the tree of life right?)so i can say all the sin in the world is just God reaping what he has sown unless u want to say He is not subject to your so called golden rule...i hope say i never blaspheme!!

Stop ranting and start thinking. Harvest day is judgement time which is the future, commonly called the last day. There would be an innumerable multitude that have overcome. Would you be among? They overcome by the blood of the Lamb Jesus.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[quote author=david_hume]Why didn't God just isolate satan from the garden of Eden in the first place?[/quote]Errr, he was the test question. Your question should border on why Adam failed the test and why you are flunking the test, and how you can pass.

Kay 17: I believe any man can use freewill to sacrifice himself and wash entirely the sins of other men. So also redefine what is good and bad, therefore placing his freewill rightly above morals.

This is senseless, can you be clearer please? Thanks.

Obalende: Lets keep it simple. I have willed to sleep and never wake, to wake into in existence. Yet my free will choice is not honored. I wake up to another day full of possibilities to sin (which could be something as natural as feeling attraction for or sleeping with a woman), I am sent demons to torment me in the current world then to burn forever, anyway I don't want to say anything blasphemous sha...

You seem to mistake the meaning of freedom/free will. Free will connotes the ability to decide, to make decisions, make intelligent choice, not just on instinct. It is not about wonderland wishes being honored.
Like for instance, you are not in prison physically. You have freedom. Freedom has definition and limits. i cannot argue that you do not have freedom as you're not in prison. you have freedom to go to school, to the internet, to vote, to marry, etc. but you do not have the freedom to go rob a bank or kill people or do anything criminal. It would be crass of you to whine that you do not have freedom because you can't do the forbidden.

rationalmind: Hehehehe, mr troll, muskeeto n david-hume, you people are smacking them really down

Mr, you seem to have forgotten to reply this my post.
There is no twist. i asked "should anyone be punished at all" and you said No. God punished man for a crime, remember? He gave man instructions and man did not keep them. Crime is 1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;(merriam webster).
Are you stating that Adam did not commit an act forbidden?

i do not think your aim should be about smacking people really down(whatever that means), but you should learn or hope to learn from discussion. We're not talking childs play here ithink.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Jesus Christ is the firstfruit and root, and no doubt He is holy.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Our holiness lies primarily in His holiness, not in our works of righteousness. We could never buy or attain to His holiness if we had eternity to work it. This is the lesson God taught for over 1500years when He gave the Israelites the law to keep. It is akin to telling a fish to produce wool like the sheep. It is not in its nature, and righteousness is not in man's fallen nature. But when any man be IN Christ, the lump is holy, the branch is holy.
But the verses above remind us that some branches were broken off. Why? Because they rejected the root.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

The Israelites rejected the Root, the Source of life, and they were broken off.
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Any person grafted into Christ can be a partaker of His holiness, OR can choose to reject Him like the natural branches did(there is nothing new under the sun as it were). We need to make conscious progress in knowing Him more and walking in His light. Peter's epistle makes it clear that it is possible to be partakers of the divine nature , having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

This passage shows severity staring at us in reality. Boast not, what a salient point to take in. God resists the proud/boastful. Always remember that we stand by faith. That is, actually by grace through faith. You want God helping you(which is grace/divine help), not resisting you. God hates high looks and a proud heart. The Root is the one bearing you and not the other way round. The branches do not bear the root.
Again, why were the branches broken off? Because of unbelief. They disbelieved the Saviour and therefore rejected Him. They were not broken off because of predestination. In fact, verse 2 reminded us that these people were people God foreknew. And if you remember, we saw in chapter 8 that Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God had great plans and wishes for these people but they rejected Him. So, be not highminded, but fear. Ooops, there is actually a new testament injunction that christians should fear. To be factual, there are a couple more, not just this one. Never leave the platform of faith in God and the fear of God. There is a balance, let your moderation be known unto all.
If God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Take heed. Be careful. Nobody can just play lazy or do nothing, claiming that he is predestined. You cannot live your life anyhow. Take heed, so that God will spare you from being broken like the natural branches were. Take heed by staying/standing in faith. The just shall live by faith.

Kay 17: But God didn't plan that this world wld be one to be overcame, right?




Yet can you claim you were involved in your parents' decisions prior to your birth?

He planned it so.

i said we are all responsible, jointly responsible. We are products. Products cannot deny their source, like outputt cannot distance itself from input.

wiegraf: In other words, logic is useless as he can supersede it, anything goes to him. Anything, no if's or but's, ok? As that is the case

How do you arrive at the position of 'uselessness'? Are the things you supersede to be considered useless?

[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

Simple question. Please, don't insult our intelligence. Thank you.

Like you flawed in your OP analogy, you have again thrown a flawed question. Despite that anyway, your answer would be because there was a test required, an overcoming. Life/Time is a school man needs to pass.

Kay 17: The natural question arising is, why deal and struggle in an unreal world, when the real world of true values await. Yet there are people without this joy and peace you talk about.

Its not an unreal world. Anyways, the world we live in is for examination. It is overcomers, people that are successful tfrom this world that will be in the coming world. i know there are people without the joy and peace, but they can have the joy and peace.

Who is responsible for suffering in the world?

So your idea is that we formed some kind of consent while in Adam, therefore we deserve to endure the evils?! Can it be intelligeibly said that you were involved in all your father/ancestor's decisions prior to the time you were born? Is that practicable at all?!

We all are responsible. Its not just to pass the buck. Not only Adam is responsible. There are many avoidable sufferings that we bring on ourselves today, some through wrong decisions, some bad government and poor/insensitive governance etc. We all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

uhhhh

rationalmind: Why are you people so good at twisting arguments? What has punishment for crime gotten to do with Gods punishment for exercising our freewill.

There is no twist. i asked "should anyone be punished at all" and you said No. God punished man for a crime, remember? He gave man instructions and man did not keep them. Crime is 1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;(merriam webster).
Are you stating that Adam did not commit an act forbidden?

Kay 17: @image123

I used "now" to mean our present lives excluding reincarnated lives or afterlife.

From your post, it is understood that primarily Suffering is a curse from God with little uses such as refinement etc. Hecne suffering is a punishment for contravening deeds done.

For those whose suffering eclipse their joys and happiness, do you recommend the same medicine for them as people whose sufferings are far less than theirs? Can joy and happiness have any significant bearing in their lives when they are incapacitated to the extent they are unable to feel joy?!

Yet the hopes and promises are fuilfilable in another life, not here; suggesting that our real lives are somewhere beyond this present lives without the curse (heaven). Therefore this life cannot offer REal happiness, right?

How are/were you responsible for the Fallen Creation when it occurred prior o your birth?

God offers promises of a remedy, showing and telling that all is not lost, giving hope for now and for the future.
Suffering is a curse from God caused BY man. Suffering does not always come from God BTW but is permitted by God. Like i've said, God can use the suffering situation positively. Suffering is a consequence, not just a punishment. Like failure is a consequence of not planning or of unseriousness.
We can all have joy and peace in this life. There is never a reason to give up for anyone.
Our real lives are beyond this present, yet we can have real happiness here too. It only continues FOREVER in the afterlife.
We are jointly responsible for the fallen creation as we were in Adam when it occured, and we all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

rationalmind: No. No one should be punished for exercising the ability God gave them.

The question was "Should anyone be punished at all?" Are you saying that there should be no prisons, police, sentences or jail terms for anyone who exercises this 'ability God gave them'?

Kabieosi: Seeing this or not seeing that, isn't what they are disgruntled over.

Their gripe is what is the freewill and "punishment" point

What are the intentions?

What is GOD's intention?

Eeyah @them. i was hoping that he saw the flaws in his analogy too though.

rationalmind: not just one but two blockheads liked this, quite pathetic.

He should punish no one. Simple. Weather you do good with it or evil, no one should be punished for exercising the freewill

Woahhhhh, should anyone be punished at all?

Candour: @image123, 1000000 likes.

So bro image knew all these, particularly the bolded yet he refused to speak up when NL was almost submerged under the barrage of these hell tourists and their merchandise?

Haba bros, you no try at all o. Anyway thank God you know this truth.

God bless.

There is time for everything. Moreso, i cannot contribute on every topic every time. i do my part and expect others to do their part. Again, Don't allow yourself to be swept by stories. i'm not saying that these stories are unreal, but that they are never a standard or fundamental.

mazaje: Again I repeat, you are a fool, your god is a fool and who ever wrote that nonsense in the bible is also a fool. . .

mazaje oooooooooooooooooooooooo. na wa

Ihedinobi: We'll see how true that is, shan't we? I'm going to bring in the Bible version and we'll see if your "picture" suffices


God created man.


He put him in a Garden.


He tells him to eat anything he likes except the fruit of one particular and distinct tree.


Man eats from that tree. That is not his "nature". He was designed with a natural bent to obedience to God.


God returns and metes out the consequences He warned man about in the event of disobedience.


Yeah. The problem is that you don't know what the Bible says about the whole thing or you're just dishonest about it

Nice one, hopefully, wiegraf sees this.

aManFromMars: Old man, when are you going to take your advice? Maybe your parents never raised you.

i behave my age and discuss intelligently on social forum. You need to imbibe that.

aManFromMars: Still a slowpoke, 2013 don dey end. NO hope for you at all. I just hope say you never born.

Young boy, behave your age and honour the efforts your folks are putting to raise/educate you. No need to vent your frustrations on me, be proactive, try intelligence.

plaetton: No atheist that I know or have ever heard of, robs, saps and picks the pockets of other people with the promise of supernatural blessings and protection from unexpected disasters.
That is the package that you sell everyday to your flock of faithfuls.

Obtaining under false pretense of supernatural protection is 419.

If god cannot save, then what is reliance on God and religion all about?
Where is the miracle?
The Holy spirit's power is only good enough to make people fall down during a church service, but impotent in the face of tempest winds?
What gives?

Good, at least you know that atheists are helpless and hapless as regards this disaster. Since you have no solution to provide. All the world's science, gagdets and abcdmeters could not stop this disaster, is that proof that science cannot save or we should shelve reliance on intelligence?

wiegraf: ^^^^
No

Well that is the problem seen here if indeed you're attempting to bring Yahweh in context.

But as intulligent as atheists are, the could do nothing to stop this disaster, why are they complaining bitterly na?

The problem here is that this is a poor and flawed analogy.

Kay 17: ^^

Totally unsatisfactory.

Why does the loving God offer promises now?

What do you mean by "now". Now as in compared to when?

How do those promises solve the present issue of suffering?

God's promises give hope, and hope helps you alleviate suffering. And sometimes, this actually works.

Are people who suffer from total disillusion with life, to abandon this life entirely and look forward to the afterlife?

No, there is never a reason to give up.

Since God has no present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life, shouldn't we all abandon this life too?

Do you know of any person, body, organisation or idea that has a present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life? There is no need to abandon life, we can actually have joy and peace in this life too.

Of what use is the suffering to us? Does it empower us? Does it make us stronger? Was that the purpose God gave to suffering?

No, suffering is not for good, but can be converted for good. It's like fire, fire can burn and destroy. It can also cook and purify and refine. God can cause all things, including suffering to work for our good. Suffering is a curse, it comes from the famous man's fall.

Why are we in a Fallen Creation?

Because we are children of the fallen creation? It's like a horse child asking why he is a horse and not a rabbit or something. Adam's creation is fallen, and damned/doomed. But God has decided to still get the best out of the situation instead of a total failure. At the end, this fallen creation would produce an innumerable multitude that will live with God eternally.

Who is responsible for the Fallen Creation?

All of us.

Why do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Is there any justice?

The chief question should rather be do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Of course, the answer is YES. A careless driver can render you paralysed for life, a careless kid can burn down your house. A neighbour can spread a disease through water, air etc. A carefree man would likely ruin the chances of his to be family and descendants. Is there justice. There are people at a disadvantage that still manage to turn their disadvantages and come out fine. We all have that much power inside us to do the needful as it were. The human mind is so powerful, so also is our faith and our bodies. You can imagine the level of latent excellence in each one of us even as fallen as we are. While we do not usually decide our past, there is usually opportunity to decide our future, and perhaps our eternity.

Joshthefirst: you no know say na woman she be?!

kay17 no bi Kayode? It must never be a woman ohhh. Ihedinobiiii,good to read you.

ayoku777: this is the pride that puts me off. Just say you can't find a passage to defend your point. I've searched everywhere love came up in the new testament. There is no love your neighbour as yourself after Christ instituted the new one.

Just say Ayo i disagree with you. No need to sound esoteric like there's one ghen ghen holy spirit that shows only you how the new covenant still operates the law of the old

She meant,
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself , ye do well: