₦airaland Forum

i was only advising you. it should be obvious to you that I'm not into question and answer sessions on this thread, it's between you guys and anukulapo.

Gosh, you dey ask yoursef question again, do you understand apostle Gosh? well, i advice you use the 'd' part of your dictionary definition, and also consider previous verses instead on interpreting verse 15 in isolation.
And judge in yourself, what is shaved, the head or the hair? And is it reason to cover the glory of the man and uncover the glory of the woman?

^
I'd reply fully later. Meanwhile, i have a question. The passages on descendants being in their parents, what is it figurative of?

thehomer: Huh? I thought those sorts of sayings are taken as being figurative rather than literal. Your great grand father didn't give birth to you, neither could he have given birth to you so the only way someone can say you were in him would be in a figurative manner and the passages you cite clearly demonstrate this. Otherwise, what part of Adam were you in? What part of Jacob was Saul in?

And what criteria qualifies them as figurative as against literal? i cannot exist without my granddad. i was in him, i am his DESCENDant. i descend from him. i was in his seed. Saul was in Jacob's seed. If Jacob was childless, there would be no Saul the seed of Jacob. The Israelites are the seed of Abraham.
Psa 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Jesus was the seed of Eve, etc.

So because of Adam, you're going to hell. Now what sort of God who wants most of his creations to go to hell would arrange things in this way? Secondly, if you believe in Adam, then can you tell me what part of Adam you were in? As I said above, such sayings are to be taken figuratively not literally. Finally, why didn't God start over properly rather than doing a Noah's Ark and a Jesus sacrifice? He could have wiped everything out with the right asteroids and created more perfect humans.

already addressed. i said in he above post that we are judged according to our works,and that we are sinners by default, hence we cannot be sacrificedd for others, as we are not sinless. i was in Adam as his seed. the whole of the human race was. On the bolded, you are very right. that is what should be done and that is what will be done. That's why we say Jesus is coming soon. he is coming to do just that. Wipe everything out, with the right asteroids, and bring in perfection. If you need the scriptures that say that, i will provide them.

If you want to use freewill, then my question is why should God have allowed so many different religions out there and multiple sects of Christianity? Surely he must have known that the chances that someone follows the religion of their parents is very high. In that case, he actually has minimized those people's freewill while granting mass murderers more freewill over those they kill.

Actually, a pastor's child has free-will to decide for himself or herself. news making the rounds tell us that pastors children and people born in christian homes turn out as atheists. that is free-will at work. your assumptions do not always follow in reality.

So you don't decide what you'll be when you're created. In that case, why didn't God have people sprout from the ground rather be born by other humans? Even we humans know enough to prevent infections by preventing contact with carriers why didn't God do something better? If he had done that, then maybe we won't all be hell candidates according to you and remember, when you say we're all hell candidates, it means that the 2 day old child is also a hell candidate so where would that child go? And how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Man was given the ability to procreate before he fell in the garden of Eden. Is there anything that sprouts out of the ground on its own? Human beings are the crown of creation, we are more complex than you suggest. i assumed science should have taught you that? There is a process. there are laws. There are protocols, there is justice. And God is not in a rush, sorry. If you truly feel any sense of urgency, the best thing you can do is make sure that you stop being an hell candidate. i stopped being an hell candidate when i gave my life to Jesus, by believing in Jesus and repenting of my sins. The choice is yours still.

sorry for the delayed reply, wanted to reply earlier but the computer i was using had issues while updating microsoft essentials. Had to quit the browser without ability to copy what was typed.

thehomer: By that reasoning, everyone is special and every book is special. It means that the Qur'an is special, the Book of Mormon is special, the novel Things Fall Apart is special. So what if many people read the Bible? Many people act out and have acted out Shakespeare's plays so I guess his works too are special.

Of course they are special, don't you think? Shakespeare is not like every other writer, he was special. You are more quick to counter-attack anything in favour of christianity no matter how reasonable, while missing the point i was making. The point was/is that "the Bible was released in series, like releasing a book in chapters until the whole thing was complete, except that it is not just like every other book, it is special". It wasn't written or released at once.

Did God say any of his laws were no longer necessary?

Yep, for example,
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Remember the street law analogy that i gave about barricading.

Your analogy with the shoe rack is wrong for two reasons.

1. Gravity doesn't stop acting on the shoes otherwise they would float out of the rack if not stuck in place.

That's the point. Gravity was there and the rack/hand was there. They can't float out of the hand for instance even if they were in space. the hand will hold it. Gravity is there and the living hand is there. Same way some of the laws co-exist and yet give way for the other.

2. The laws of gravity aren't the sorts of things that can be "violated" since they're descriptive laws unlike laws that people give to others to obey which are prescriptive.

The airplane violates gravity all the time using a greater force ithink.

Actually, for me both the laws and the interpretations are subject to debate. The thread can also be used to discuss on whether Adeboye's statement should actually be accepted when it comes to making policy decisions.

Well, for you, but not for me. Yes, Adeboye's statement can be accepted. i believe you expect gay right activists statements to be considered and perhaps accepted when it comes to making policy decisions. It's only fair then that Adeboye's also be considered and perhaps accepted.

Clothing laws are the sorts of things found in Deuteronomy 22:5 and 22:11, dietary laws in Deuteronomy 14:7-10, slavery laws Leviticus 25:44-46.

My point is why should they be selectively ignored while enforcing others?

Clothing, dietary and slavery laws are not limited to the passages you have given. The laws are to be weighed in respect of the total, complete Bible, and then followed. Read other parts of the Bible that speak on clothing, diet and slavery and get a balanced view. The balanced view should not be ignored. You are selectively enforcing and accusing others of selectively ignoring.i say, do nothing selectively. Let's have a balanced view of the laws from the whole Bible, and 'enforce' the balanced view in that light.

None of the passages you quoted above talk about eternal punishment. Just that people will be destroyed and that will be the end. With Jesus, we have continued punishment forever.

i believe the people in the Old Testament before Christ(B.C) believed in an afterlife. they believed in punishment for the wicked and reward for the righteous. They didn't think that after death, it was nothing. i agree that Jesus made it more explicit, but they had the idea of a resurrection. The pharisees believed in resurrection.
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
King David believed that he would meet his dead child in the afterlife.
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
He also wrote the following, speaking of the afterlife.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Prophet Isaiah believed in it too
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

So God's requirements must automatically be good? Can he not do better than that? He could change his decision against Nineveh but not against the entire world. Isn't the world bigger than Nineveh? Sure countries and residences do but they don't then decide that anyone not in their country must be tortured forever.

Sure, God is good, have you not heard? You ought to know why He changed His decision against Nineveh. They repented, remember?
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

When your entire world does the above, lets chat ehn. Hell belongs to God, and was created by Him. So He has the right to terms and CONDITIONS of hell too, recall.

My point is that the so called sacrifice that Christians keep making noise about isn't something that a mere person cannot do.

Every mere person had a sin of his own to die for. An innocent sacrifice was required for atonement. Sinless and spotless.

When we then consider that Jesus got to be resurrected and float away to heaven while someone like me would be willing to do it even if it meant never being resurrected at all tells you that maybe I have more compassion for my people than Jesus and God.

Jesus' resurrection was not the payment/atonement for sins. Atonement was done on the cross and declared to be finished before Jesus died. Jesus resurrected to defeat death, to technically take the power from death for us. The death of Jesus gave us forgiveness of sins. the resurrection gave us the victory. The victory is what gives the shout of a king, we are made not just pitiful forgiven sinners/debtors but champions and conquerors over the enemy by the resurrection. You i trust to fight to the end for your right instead of dying for anybody, so don't even start.

Then the sacrifice won't have been needed if God decided it was no longer needed.

The human life is precious, more precious than all of the earth's material thing. Jesus quantified it as greater than gaining the whole world. A sacrifice had to be made. There are laws already set and consequences faced for actions. god doesn't just decide it no longer needed. there are steps and protocols. The soul that sins shall die.

Who gave Adam his nature? Sure you inherit physical characteristics but I don't think you inherit your father's punishment. After all, if one's grandfather was a killer, it doesn't mean that the person would also be a killer neither does it mean that the person should be branded for what their grandfather did. How much more Adam and you? Why should you be held responsible for what Adam did? Remember you're saying that even before you actually commit any crime at all, you deserve to roast in hell forever.

Adam chose his nature. He was the first man/human being. He was given the choice. You and me as his descendants have to benefit from that choice, as it were. It's like a man born normal but who grows and lives with a loose life of immorality and dirty life. If he gets infected with sickness like HIV, or develops an habit. the sickness and habit can be passed to his descendants. his mannerisms can be inherited. Heck, even his physical possessions can be inherited. We unfortunately inherited the sinful nature of Adam. He had a choice of obedience and disobedience, life and death. he chose death, and was driven away from the garden. You are not held responsible for Adam's sins or anybody else sins. you are held responsible and punished for your sins. We are all sinners by nature at birth. as we grow, we become sinners by nature and by works/deeds. Every man is judged/punished according to his WORKS/deeds. that's one of the reasons why the baby is not much of your worry.

How can children be guaranteed Heaven? Aren't they born with sin anymore? That looks to me like Jesus and God contradicting themselves.

God chooses to have mercy on who He wants to have mercy. He has chosen to have mercy on the babies and i have given you scriptures on that and the very words of Jesus Himself. If you feel cheated, well, bad for you. His condition of mercy for you is repentance.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

He has chosen to have mercy on the babies, why are you trying to be jealous? If He didn't have mercy on them, you would complain. Now, it is being shown you that He would have mercy on them, you are still complaining.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Babies don't know anything as it were and God considers them. See for instance the city of Nineveh that you mentioned earlier.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Are you a baby? i guess your parents have asked you that before? You are no longer a baby. Stop expecting to be treated in the same way.

Oh I'm aware that it is my interpretation and that you're not running away like many other Christians would. And I hope that other Christians reading this realize that when they run, they're disobeying Jesus.

No, they are not disobeying Jesus. They are only been wise. Not every fisherman needs to try to catch a shark. If you lack the tools and 'courage', the shark will catch you instead. Jesus did not require us to do what you are insinuating, whatever it is.

My point is just for you to realize that many of your fellow Christians would disagree with you so how do you know that your own interpretation is correct and theirs wrong? Other interpretations are from the Bible too.

Many of my fellows also agree with me. The scriptures agree with me, v.important. Search the scriptures.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]According to Dr Sign Fireman:


Has it occurred to anyone that in order to read 40,000 books at the rate of one book per day, it will take 109 years, 7 months and 5 days?[/quote]maybe it's a sign by Sign Fireman.

debosky: You dey mind am? All I was even doing was critiquing ihedinobi's argument, not supporting evolution per se, and the over eager puma had already started calling me names.

haa ahh debo! It's bad enough to be a puma, but an over eager puma? suffri for tislight biko. It is well.

tislight wan fall people hand again. So you no hear radio and thorium for art class?

blackelegant: Rev. Dr. Sign fireman is a true man of God, I have gone to his church to verify all the things being said about him by can and I just found out that they were all lies that they were simply lost in jealousy

you registered your handle today, owoblab registered yesterday. And you're both lying to us as if you're not members of fire's church? Send me your cv.

Affiliated: ^Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate dictionary

TOTAL freewill? or just ''freewill''

double

fireman don recruit again abi na call out bi dis? you for even allow us feed our eyes small with picture or video of noble works. You fit like cheap lies oh.

^
I'd address your post later, meanwhile can you tell where you get this your definition of total freewill?

striktlymi: Like I said before image, you have a right of choice. I really can't be bothered with a matter so thrivial. Your personal views on the matter are appreciated but what really beats me is calling something sinful when you agreed that it is not.

Please remind me of the part where i said it is sinful and the part where i said that it is not sinful, thanks. i doubt though if there is anything trivial when it comes to the christian. Like been killed for drinking water and bread, punished for striking a rock, murmuring, immediate death for lying , touching a ark, etc.

Affiliated: So tell me what the basis for punishment is. If I understood you clearly before, it is because we do not choose God.

the basis for punishment is sin, not freewill as you stated.

No bias at all

It is a bias, considering that your perspective is based on an irreligious and godless worldview.

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. I wasn't free to choose if I wanted to exist and be given the choice of God or no God in the first place. You say God and my parents decided that for me which means I wasn't free in that aspect.
Now that existence has been forced on me. The conditions are so onerous to not choose God that my free will is further drastically diminished

And were you at anytime or place promised freewill before existence? Does the Bible define freewill or state freewill to include pre-existence?

In line with my explanations above, I insist that I do not have total and complete free will. And to further support this claim, free will according to Merriam-Webster dictionary is : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

The dictionary agrees with my opinion. Humans are free to make choices. But freedom is not limitless. you are a free man, but not free to slap a army man or the governor. you are free to walk around Lagos, but not free to tresspass on private property. that's freedom for you. You are free to vote and be voted for, except that there are other terms attached like not contesting above 80years or below 18years etc. There is no limitless freedom anywhere, but there is freedom nonetheless. freewill is freedom, and freedom comes with a price. Like they say, great power comes with great responsiblity.

And yet the bible shows several instances of God wildly interfering in the freedom of humans to make choices so as to cause them to make a particular choice or prevent them from making a particular choice

please state every instance you know of, i would like to look into it.

I don't know how to reply to your post. I think you understand the point but you are just trying to get lost in unnecessary details.

I don't think the bible explicitly gave a definition of free will as a bible is not a dictionary but the doctrine of free will is evident throughout the bible.
For an example and as regards the passages, I could pick anywhere from the bible but let's stick with Deuteronomy 28

God says there are two choices. Choose me and be blessed e.t.c Don't choose me and be cursed e.t.c You are free to choose [Free will] and the curses are then justified because you were free to choose
But I'm saying that the free will isn't complete because I didn't ask for all this in the first place. i wasn't free to make a choice as to whether I want to exist or not and then be given the God or no God choice. understand?

you should be willing to give the Bible definition so that we can prove if there is any fault on God keeping up with His definition. from what you have posted about Biblical freewill, it is evident that freewill has conditions. Freewill has context. Like i said earlier, a freewill offering doesn't mean you would offer your dustbin to God. It still has to be in line with what God approves, but you offer it at your own decision. freewill is a major component of every human soul. it is decision. we have the freedom to decide. You can decide to eat now or later, sleep now or later, study or not study, eat or not eat, go to church or not go, love or hate, serve God or not serve Him, give your life to Christ or not give it to Christ. that is freewill. We are not limited to instincts like animals. We can MORE EASILY and frequently make intelligent or unintelligent decisions.

striktlymi: Well image now I understand your position on the matter and really this is where we disagree.

For the avoidance of doubt let me re-iterate my personal position on the ish of smoking. I do not smoke, I don't like being around places where people smoke though I don't have any beef with people who smoke, I do not encourage anyone to smoke. Smoking for me is a habit that one should do away with.

Having said that, I know for a fact that smoking in itself is not sinful, I know that working in an establishment that produces cigarettes is not against the principles of Christianity. Every Christian has a choice between accepting to work with a tobacco company or not accepting.

Well you can't state for a fact that smoking is not sinful when it is not stated for a fact in the Bible, following the popular arguments for smoking. Every christian has a choice between committing sin and not committing sin. The statement on choices say nothing.

I am not sure what you were trying to suggest when you talked about advantaages of smoking.

You answered my 'suggestions' in your statement about not smoking or encouraging anyone to smoke, thanks.

You should understand that for something to be sinful, that thing need not have advantages or disadvantages. A sin is what it is for the fact that it is displeasing to God.

Sin is ALWAYS a disadvantage. Losing the presence or friendship of God is a disadvantage to any christian. the christian is not only thinking about advantages for himself. The christian is thinking of himself, of others, and of God. BTW, anything that is displeasing to God is a disadvantage to the human and perhaps his society. most times, we only think about the temporary, selfish and visible fun of theft, wickedness, cheating, immorality etc as an advantage. They pale as advantages when you also consider what the other person may lose, emotional, psychological etc.

For a Christian to avoid doing something, the only thing he or she needs bother about is whether it is displeasing to God i.e whether it is sinful. If it is not then the individual has the choice of doing it or not doing it.

No, this is not the only thing to consider as earlier hinted, though it is a major thing. The christian should also consider others. Honour all men, love your neighbour as youself, and have a conscience void of offence toward men. This is where many people/christians miss it in using their religious activities and programmes to disturb and inconvenience others.

If one Christian decides not to get involved, it does not follow that another christian MUST do the same. If you can't work with BAT cause of your principles it does not mean that every Christian must abide by your personal principles.

i'm not talking of my personal principles. i'm talking of Bible principles that tell us not to give in to the flesh and its lusts. Principles that state that if any man defile the temple of God, him would God destroy. Principles that do not want us to be drunk or addicted to anything except the Spirit of God. Principles that gave the children of Israel laws on clean and healthy living while other nations were in darkness as to hygiene and good health practices. those are some of the principles why a christian should not be producing cigarettes or encouraging anything that damages the fearfully made human body.

Don't get me wrong here, I admire your courage greatly but this is not a matter that is binding on every Christian. When a matter is sinful then we know that every christian is bound not to do it but this case is far from that.

i doubt if there is any matter that is binding on anybody. we are no more under the law but under grace.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

You talked about me sighting advantages....Hmmmm...I will prefer not to cause it would mean encouraging people to go about smoking but for the sake of knowledge I will recommend that you google about it, this website can be a starting point:

http://www.ljdiaz.com/18-benefits-of-cigarette-smoking/

Thank you!

Again thanks for sharing. The site shows the very much known and easily proved disadvantages of smoking. All of the 'advantages' listed are inherent in the tobacco, not in the smoking of cigarettes. Tobacco is medicinal, and is used in the pharmaceuticals. It is classified under hard DRUGS. It's like listing the advantages of having money under the advantages of theft and corruption.

thehomer: Really? So where were you stored until your birth?

Inside my father. See and compare this case from the Bible.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
King saul was the first King of Israel. note how Genesis 35 talks about him and other kings as been in the loins of Jacob. This distance is quite far compared to the Hebrews passage that says the same thing with three steps between Abraham and Levi, and the 1Kings passage that says the same thing with one step between david and Solomon. We were ll inside Adam, and if he didn't produce, we will not be here. We are his DESCENDants.

And what is it that happens between this "creation" and "birth" that makes you deserve to be in hell?

The fall of Adam in genesis 3 is what is inbetween. Adam got corrupted with 'the sin virus'. Thereafter, every file/human in him or put into him also got corrupted. And whatever is corrupted would be removed. Only Jesus can save any file/human from this corruption.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Now God knows that more than 98% of humans will be going to hell so why doesn't he destroy those of us that will be going to hell before we're born? Why doesn't he at least destroy the terrible people like serial killers and mass murderers before they're born?

Then came freewill, remember? you only decide what you want to be when you are born, not before. We are all hell candidates by default, but we all choose whether we want to remain so or no. Judgement day is coming. There is already a time appointed for that, exercise patience.

bros, where is the the Bible's definition of free will and bible passages i asked for?

thehomer: I know you think it is special but you understand that I do not agree with you. But it is reformist if some previous laws are declared to no longer hold. If the steps are not reasonably connected, then you shouldn't be surprised that you conclusions won't be agreed with.

If it is not special, please produce a book like it. Lionel Messi is a special soccer player, usain Bolt is a special athlete, the Bible is a special book. If i write it this way, perhaps you understand better. The Bible is not like your everyday literature. It is followed by billions of people for thousands of years. All the laws of the Bile hold. If there is a law that doesn't hold, it is because it has been fulfilled or done with or a greater law of God is in place. For instance, in a street, there was a time when a place was barricaded and it was illegal for cars to pass there because of ongoing construction work. Now the consruction work is completed. Cars now pass there. This is not a case of inconsistency or contradiction on the part of the law maker. the previous law had to go seeing that it was no longer necessary. Consider another case on the law of gravity in room. My bag or shoe would obey the law of gravity and come down to the floor. But if a shoe rack was introduced, or i held it up with my hand, the shoe/bag stays up. The law of graavity is still there but has been superseded by the hand holding it or the rack from which it is hanging. there is no imaginary law fighting with or contradicting one another. it's a similar thing with the Bible commands that you think to be contradictory. BTW, i repeat clearly again, there is NO CONTRADICTION in the whole Bible. The problem is misunderstanding.

No, they can be addressed here. If you say that any law given by God still holds, then you need to say clearly whether or not those clothes laws, dietary laws and slavery laws still hold. If the Bible wasn't progressive in the sense of being reformed, then why should the laws be subject to debate?

the laws are not subject to debate. It is the interpretations that are subject to debate. This thread is talking about Adeboye's statement on same-sex marriage being against God's will, which is true. you are suggesting we launch into a back and forth on slavery, diet and clothing. If you say so, no wahala for me. i don't know about the moderators and others. What are the clothes laws, dietary laws and slavery laws?

Actually, according to Judaic teaching, people aren't sent to hell, when they die, everything ends but with Jesus, you get to be punished for eternity according to most Christian beliefs.

i want to believe that the Old Testament is also Judaic teaching, whatever that means.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pro 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Pro 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Pro 5:11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The passages are referring to the destination of sinners as against the destination of the righteous. The Bible(OT and NT) is explicit enough that there is judgement for evil.

Why should someone dying for someone else be the only way?

Well, that's God's requirement as seen in the Bible. He is the owner of Heaven and earth and He decides the criteria and requirements to enter His Heaven and live with with. Earthly organisations have their own requirements for employment and entry. Countries and even residences have their terms and conditions for people to come in.

What even makes what Jesus did so good? I would have done it for my own family how much more the world and all future humans?

It is someone who has money that can talk of paying debt. your death would not have been accepted as you can only die for yourself. Jesus was not born of a man but of a woman. He is not a child of Adam but a child of God. He was not infected with 'the sin virus' by default. While He was on earth, He stayed away from being infected by overcoming temptations to sin. Adam was created good, without the sin virus. He did not overcome his own temptations. If Jesus had sinned, He would have been disqualified too, as a sinless, spotless 'lamb' was what was required. You and i were born with the sin virus.

But why exactly should God make everyone start with a debt? It doesn't make a lot of sense for a 2 day old baby to be considered to be a sinner deserving of death and eternal torture.

Adam made everyone start with a debt, not God. Adam is the father of all mankind, he is the beginning of the human race, and we inherited what he had. Just like you inherit something of your father's name(surname), blood, nationality, looks, sickness/prone sickness, character traits etc. We all inherited from adam the sin nature and the characters of a human being. A 2day old baby cannot choose. He/She cannot be punished as all sinners would be punished according to their works. The 2day old has no works.
Pro 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to EVERY man according to his works?
Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward EVERY man according to his works.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto yo[/b]u, Except ye be converted, and become as [b]little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus clearly taught that the Kingdom of God belonged to little children and to those that can be like them. i wonder why you folks worry so much for those whose places are already guaranteed in Heaven when you are supposed to be thinking of how to help your self and your age mates.

I've read the Bible and what you're saying is simply your own interpretation. There are Christians who have a different opinion on these issues.

And what you have said is not your own interpretation? Have you considered that you are speaking to someone who is 'finally' answering your questions, instead of dodging it or disappearing?

Affiliated: Many religions justify God ultimately sending almost all of mankind to an eternal punishment that our most evil minds cannot even comprehend.
The basis for this justification is that God gave us freewill and we didn't choose Him.

i only partially agree with this viewpoint. The basis for punishment is not freewill, i wonder what religion you got that.

Aside from the pettiness and jealously that statement portrays, did God really give us freewill?
Looking at it from an unbiased perspective,

you're looking at it with the bias of what you have read and heard.

I was born on this earth without being given a choice. If there was freewill, I should have been able to choose if i wanted to exist or not.

Read this your statement again until you see how senseless it is please. How can one choose if he/she wants to exist before existing?

But once I can make that choice, then I already exist.
In essence I was not free to make that choice so religion cannot subsequently claim that humans have freewill.

We only have partial freewill from a religious point of view

What is the Bible's definition of free will for instance? Are you speaking out of ignorance? If yes, please say so. If no, give Bible passages that define and shows that man has freewill. thanks.

striktlymi: Good day Image,

To tell you the truth, I was struggling to understand the message you were trying to pass across but anyways, it's cool that we are in agreement that it is not sinful.

I am not sure if you were trying to say that smoking tobacco is against the principles of right conduct and because of this one should not work in a company that produces it. If this is your message then I am of the view that this has to do with individuals.

If someone's personal principles stops the individual from taking up a job then there is no problem but what I have an issue with is if an individual rejects a job with a tobacco company because he or she believes it is sinful to work there. This is not correct.

There are jobs one would reject under religious grounds e.g prostitution and the individual would be perfectly right not to go into such but working with a tobacco company hardly qualifies as one of such jobs.

There is a need to draw a distinction between personal decisions and decisions taking because of Christianity. There are people who do not use any product that is known to be harmful to the Ecosystem but this does not mean that those who use them are committing sin.


Thank you!

Not sure how you did not get my message, but let me make it clearer. It is wrong for a christian to produce cigarettes. Now, please in your next reply, kindly give 3 advantages or usefulness of smoking cigarettes, thank you.

Affiliated: ^So you agree with me that free will isn't total and complete?

Free will is how i explained it. If you think that is total, it is. If you think it is not, it still is. Free will has been given us by God. It's your choice now what to do with it.

Affiliated: Define them please

Freewill is partial like you have opined in your OP and like others have tried to show you. The Biblical view point of freewill is to do something by your self. It doesn't mean to do anything you like. For instance, a freewill offering to God is an offering that you decide to give by choice. It's not demanded but is by choice. But a freewill offering doesn't mean to give your dustbin to God, or your spoilt food. free will needs to be understood in context. You have the freedom to choose life or death i.e choose God or no. You can make a decision without existing. Coming into existence is not by personal choice. God and your parents decided that one, but when you begin to exist, there comes a phase of life when you are able to decide. Decision is always in context. A student has the freedom to choose any of the federal universities BUT he/she needs to have his o'level results and write he entrance exams. He has chosen freely, he can also decide not to choose the university. Also, the university has their own part of choosing the student or no. the university has its terms and conditions. God also has His terms and conditions stated in the Bible. But you have a freedom/freewill to choose Him. The alternative is also clearly stated, and i've seen people who choose the altenaive. the choice is still yours, it's a free world as it were.

striktlymi: Good morning Pearl,

Has anyone told you that you look even more beautiful when you are angry? ***just joking there***

You asked a direct question and the direct answer is NO! I don't smoke and I don't usually take alcohol. The truth is, I feel very uncomfortable when I am around wherever someone is smoking. But my discomfort does not imply in anyway that smoking is a sin.

If I get you correctly, you were trying to ask whether it is sinful for a Christian to be involved with the production of tobacco. This is not sinful in itself cause the use of tobacco is not a sin in itself too.

However, like some other things in life, the way we go about using something that ordinarily is not sinful can make our actions sinful. For instance, cracking a joke is not sinful but it becomes a sin when that joke is meant to make another angry.

In a similar vein, smoking is not sinful but when we smoke intentionally to slight someone then it becomes sinful. Or when we now smoke in excess then it is sinful just like drinking in excess is sinful.

Now, morality is a whole new playing field. Morality has to do with with the principles of right conduct. This has the tendency of being very subjective. But the bottom line is there are generally accepted public morals. Smoking in public places without a thought is not acceptable.

But the fact that it is not accepted does not mean that working in that establishment is sinful. A good example is the petroleum industry. I bet if you get employed by Chevron, your thread would have read: "Thank God for his faithfulness" but you should realize that the petroleum sector is responsible for some disasters in our eco-system and as such against the princciples of right conduct or morals.

In a nutshell, it is not wrong to work with BAT just as it is not wrong to work with a Chevron!

Thank you and sorry for the lengthy post.

striktlymi, you can't compare working in chevron generally to working in BAT generally. You see, there is something called abuse, and smoking of tobacco is an abuse. Tobacco is not sin, yes, God created it and whatever. god also created crude oil. 500 years ago, they didn't know the use of crude oil like we do today. It would be wrong to use it to fry plantain in the name of God created it and it is also oil. that would be a misuse, and possibly dangerous. If tobacco is used in the right way, or more research is done to make it useful, fine. It's currently used in CALCULATED AND MINOR CONCENTRATIONS in the pharmaceuticals. Smoking it is an overdose, an abuse, and it does no good to the smoker or to anything in its environment. It's not okay to morally compare it to someone working in oil and gas.

thehomer: When were you Image123 created? And when were you born?

i was created when Adam was created. We all were.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
But i was born in 19XX. After i was born, i became born again.
BTW, the same way i was/we were created in Adam, we were also created in Jesus Christ. the work of creation has being done about 2000yrs ago. You get born again when you decide to.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Creation is what God does. Man does the giving birth, the process of being born, with the help of God BTW. Because we can't really do anything without Him.

thehomer: Please take as long as you like. So the Bible progresses? If it does, then you're agreeing that your God has changed to become more progressive. In the past, he would command your own people to kill you now, he just leaves that to a realm that we don't have access to.

Yes, the revelation of God's will to man was progressive. It was made complete in the new testament. In the new testament, all things are ready, and nothing is needed for addition again.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

The Bible was released in series, like releasing a book in chapters until the whole thing was complete, except that it is not just like every other book, it is special. There is no change there. i used the word 'progressive' in the sense of ongoing, or gradual or developing. Not in the sense of being a radical or a reformist. The testaments are like step by step until you reach a goal. It's reason that you focus on the goal/destination, instead of how one step is not the same step as the other step. that way, you'll not end up confusing yourself.

How about tattooing and wearing clothes of mixed fabric? Are those also under grace or have they been totally discarded? And slavery? Even the New Testament never rejected it, instead, it urged that slaves be subservient to their masters.

Any law that was given by God still stands as His law. there is no change. The problem many in this our generation have is the understanding of those laws and their context. Another thing is to know the purpose of each law and if that purpose has being fulfilled or still needs to be served. When i was a little child, my parents gave a limit to where i can go by myself, who i can collect stuff from, what time i must be back home and in bed etc. As time has gone, the laws are not exactly the same in our relationship. Not that they changed or made a mistake or have now 'repented'. If i had a ki.d sibling, the law would still apply fully to him/her. One/You may unreasonably argue at partiality or contradiction, or you may reasonably understand in maturity, the reasons and the contexts. Your renderings of tattooing and wearing clothes of mixed fabric and slavery are subject to debate, perhaps on another thread.

Jesus also brought his eternal punishment.

The punishment had been there already. the whole world was already under the threat of wrath and judgement, read your OT and study the prophets. The people in the time of John the baptist were "fleeing from the wrath to come". It wasn't Jesus that brought it. Jesus had not even begun His ministry as it were.

So the criminal mass murderer sins today, asks and gets forgiveness. But the honest non-Christian who has helped people round the world gets eternal punishment. Now that is getting your priorities wrong if there's a Heaven.

Spot on. That is God's view. All have sinned, all are debtors by default. Every man, both the honest and dishonest, christian-born and pagan-born, 'good' and bad, everyone is born into sin. There is no amount of good deed that can pay for our debt. The wages/ result/reward of sin is death. The only way you or anybody is not going to die is if another person dies for you. The only person(according to the Bible) that is qualified to die for you or anybody is Jesus Christ. And He has already done that. What is left is for you to accept that He paid your debt, or decide to pay it yourself. All these is in scriptures. I'm trying to explain without using the many passages, but i can give them if you want.

Ozegbe: I guess this is why we need to pay tithe and offerings to pastors, so they can explain the hidden meaning of contradictory bible verses.

what you are trying to say in other words is "I no say na contradiction, but just try use your sense".

I get it.

Like i said earlier, i presume that you need an english tutor. None of the passages you quoted says not to answer a fool. there is no full stop, read the sentence like a literate. It gives two different scenarios and ways in which one can choose to answer a fool.

thehomer: Okay you've refused to take the log out of your fellow Christian's eye and decided to contradict yourself. That's fine. If we're born as sinners, doesn't it mean that we're created sinners?

No, we were not created as sinners. We were created perfect, good. That's what the Bible says about the creation of man. We were created in Adam, after Adam, we are simply born. So we were created good, Adam lost that good in the Eden, and took the evil nature. Now, we are all born with the nature of Adam, which is a sinful nature, we are born as sinners. i can oblige you if you need scriptures for that.

thehomer: I hope you realize that you've just admitted that the Bible is self contradictory. And that you're picking and choosing. Now if you're going to be preaching mercy and leaving everything to God, then who are you to prevent homosexuals from getting married? Why don't you leave it to God?



How does one "repent" of their sin? Is it by simply talking to God? How long does it take to become "spotless white" after a sin?

sorry for probably keeping you waiting. the Bible is not self contradictory, it is rather progressive i.e in stages. It only behooves you that you try to understand the view point and the panorama, instead of choosing what seems to please you. You are picking the OT and avoiding the NT to try to paint God as wicked. It's not so, there is no change in law. It's not that God now approves of what He earlier disapproved, no. He introduced grace, so that man can repent without being judged. If man doesn't repent, He will still be judged.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

You need to be aware of the times that you live in. A.M doesn't contradict P.M, they are both different times in the 24hr day. that the 24hr day is divided into day and night is not a contradiction if you understand what i mean. The NT doesn't condone homosexuality or murder, or adultery etc. But it allows for grace. Grace allows the sinner opportunity to REPENT. Its like a parent and child relationship. See this analogy for instance, It's popular(at least here in lagos) for a parent to spank a child for carelesness if for instance the child is about 4yrs old. if a 4yr old breaks a plate carelessly or even injured himself, the parent may be displeased and spank him. In 20years time, when the child is 24years old, and the same child breaks a plate carelessly or injured himself, the same parent will be displeased but is not likely to spank the child. that is what time can do, there is a progression. It's not that the parent are now contradicting themselves. If the 24yr old had a 4yr old sibling, that one may still be spanked by the parent, but the 24yr old is not spanked. In a similar vein, God treated the human race as 'children' in the OT
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

In the process and progression of time and God's revelation to man, God sent us Jesus, and grace came with Jesus.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Now the sinner has the chance of mercy, turning a new leaf as it were. Now we do not condemn i.e final sentence people, but God will do that on the day reserved for that. Of course, we still recognise wrong and sin and discourage and preach against it. No one, or at least, i'm not arguing for homosexuals to be killed, but i can well speak against it, like i can speak against r.ape, murder, wickedness, theft, corruption and other sins. No one is forcing them not to get married. the thread title says it is against GOD'S will, and we will continue to tell them that anywhere and everywhere.
Repentance is to recognise wrong and change/amend your ways. Repentance invloves this two bolded. It's not enough to recognise what you are doing as wrong and continue doing it, that is not repentance, that is just remorse/guilt. talking to God is for forgiveness of sins. talking to God is prayer, not repentance. You repent and pray to God to forgive you. Immediately you are humble enough to do that i.e repent and talk to God, God forgives. Forgiveness is immediate, and forgiveness restores you to being spotless white. Remember that forgiveness is hinged on the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made by dying 2000yrs ago. That is the basis of forgiveness for the whole world's sins.

Ozegbe: in proverb 26:4. the bible says answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him.


in the next verse....vs 5.: it says answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.



which should we do, answer or don't answer?

You need an english tutor i presume.
The passage you quoted did not say "answer not a fool". Your mind said so. The passage you quoted said "answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him."

OLAADEGBU: My fellow soldier in Christ, I throway salute ooh! I beg helep me locate book shop for Naija where my brother hisblud fit purchase Kofeso Ravi Zakaraiah's books or DVDs.

not too sure oh, but he can check oneplace.com/ministries/ and click on Ravi's "Let my people think".

do i know this godfather on nl?