₦airaland Forum

Ken4Christ:
Sure. You forgot one
The Father is equal to the Son in a context.

Jesus said, I and my Father are one.- John 10:30.

The Jews knew what he meant. So they said:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

When they accused Jesus of making himself God, he didn't say that he was not. Rather, his further comment affirmed that Jesus is God. And he is one with him.

Even Paul wrote in his letter to the Philippian church that Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God - Philippians 2:6.

So, in a context, Jesus is equal with God. In another context, the Father is greater than Jesus.

Good sir.
We have agreed sir. But let us look at the three verses you quoted because it seems they you did not look at them deeply sir. But I understand you perspectives which is good but let us look at the interpretation of those verses you mentioned.
1. John 10:30.
In this verse, Jesus was talking about unity in that verse sir. The oneness he mentioned about him and the father was about the unity that exists between him and the father. He is not saying that he is the Father but that him and the father are united (one). Remember John 17:21 that Jesus said "Make all of the (the church) one just as we (the Father and the son) are one." So, the oneness is about unity.

2. John 10:33.
The people were accusing Jesus of calling himself God because he called himself the son of God. Just like if a goat for instance called itself the son of a man, the goat is indirectly calling itself man. So, the Jews understand that Jesus calling himself the son of God shows that he claimed to be God. Jesus also confirm this in verse 36 where he rebuked them for being angry for calling himself the son of godt.
Jesus always call himself the son of God but the Jews understand that calling himself the son of God is the same as calling himself God.

3. Philippians 2:6
Form of God, meaning there is a God (Father) that Jesus has his form.
Equal with God which means that there is a God Jesus can be compared with.
So, this verse, Paul was trying to show the Philippians that this Jesus is the replica and image and fullness of the Father and that Jesus is not an ordinary being but one who has been exalted to the right hand of the day to receive the same honor and glory.

So, we agree on all these.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Guy you've gotten the answer to your question: we don't sell Bibles.

So if there's no further questions please let the matter rest.

Max
I have confirmed sir. And I must say Kudos to your organization for doing that. That is a very good and commendable thing to do.

sonmvayina:
Do not murder
Do not steal
Desist from idolatry as we are all God's spirit having a human experience
Honor/respect your parents
Do not bear false witness.
Do not have sex with any family members
Etc.

Nice one sir.
Keep it up. That is the right path

MaxInDHouse:
Guy you've gotten the answer to your question: we don't sell Bibles.

So if there's no further questions please let the matter rest.

If that is correct. It is commendable sir. Keep it up. Let me confirm it and I will get back to you.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
If you're one of our friends who wants to study the Bible with us we will require a copy for you and it's yours forever!

Good and commendable sir. That is good.
But do your members purchase Bible from the kingdom hall whenever they want to get or replace the old one?
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Please walk into any kingdom Hall of JWs and ask for a Bible to study with us make sure you ask for the name of whoever demands payment from you.

Go now don't delay!

Wait sir. I will confirm from my friends.
But state it clears. Are Bibles given for free at Kingdom halls and it becomes your possession or you read it on lease and return it back to the kingdom hall after reading or study?
That is the clarity I need to know. I like specifics.

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
He is a thief!
Whatever he is using it for is worthless if the payer feels he is obeying the law of tithe.
Saul was ordered to destroy the whole of Amalek but he preserved some things claiming he wants to use it to the glory of God if God rejected Saul for such then there is no reason why all so called pastors shouldn't tell their members that tithe is no longer Christian practice! Hebrews 7:5-12



Advertising the books in Christ's name is the CRIME, anyone can become an author writing interesting articles but don't attach it to Christ that's unchristian!

Okay sir.
Do you sell Bibles at JW?
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
According to God's word tithing was instituted among ancient Israelites so that the system of worship will run smoothly since Levites weren't given any inheritance when they left Egypt.
But when Christianity was established the tithing cease because they weren't practicing the old system of worship again {Hebrews 7:5-12} this impostor keeps speaking against God's organized people because we teach people that tithe is unchristian practice.
Secondly he publish books and sell to people claiming how to increase members of the church which is unchristian because the church can only increase through adequate preaching and teaching of God's word anything aside from that is paganism but because he wants to extort money from people he keeps on advertising his useless books in the name of Jesus who said:

You received free, give free.

That makes him a confirmed thief!

1. It is true that tithing is not for believers and it is not necessary. I do not subscribe to it but I a church have members that pay tithe willfully without being coerced and the pastor uses the money for the people in the church and community, and not for himself, then I can't call such a pastor, thief.

2. He sold books he wrote? I don't have issues with selling books or other materials. They are not salvation. At least churches sell printed Bibles and even bookshops sell Bibles too.
I don't know maybe in JW you share Bibles for free.
But I may have issues with his topic and what is the detail of what he wrote in the book. But I can't judge the book that I have not read. That will not be just and that is not what the scriptures taught me.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
Please remind me. I have forgotten. Seven point resolution?

Okay sir.
If we can agree on the following then, it means we are just speaking for the same thing in different forms.
1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. Thw holy spirit is the spirit of God (Father and Son)
4. The Father is greater than the son.
5. The Son is subject to the Father.
6. The Son is supreme over all things except the Father.
7. The Father is supreme over all things including the Son.

Do we agree sir or are there still grey areas you don't agree?

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Whether you agree or not the fact remains that Jesus who is the firstborn of all creations is part of creation!

I do not disagree. He was the first of all God's creation and he is the creator of all other creations.

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
All intelligent beings humans and angels are God's children the difference is some are spirit beings while we are human that doesn't change the fact that the first born of creation is part of creation.

Sure. If that is your context. Correct.
1. Jesus is the son of God
2. Angels are sons of God
3. Adam is the son of God
4. The righteous are sons of God and daughters of God.

If that is what you mean. Then correct. That is the position found in scriptures.

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Who cares for apology?
I can use the Bible to prove that he is a thief so let him prove that jw.org is a cult we will both use the Bible.
There's no need for apology if he truly feels jw.org is a cult group that's a welcome development but he needs to use the Bible to prove it while i use God's word to prove that he is a thief!

Okay sir. A thief must steal something. Sir, can you proof with evidence like you said you will what he had stolen?
Thanks

MaxInDHouse:
Wrong!
Only BEGOTTEN son which means he is the only creature that God made all by Himself.

Read my modified and read Hebrews 1:5.
Adam was also God's son in Luke 3:38. What about that, so we plenty because I am also a son of God if that is your context. Abi

MaxInDHouse:
He is a THIEF calling others Cult simply because we are teaching the truth that is jeopardizing his chances of extorting money from people.
If you don't see him as a thief that's your own opinion but from my own biblical perspective the guy is a thief!

If he called your organization cult, then he is also wrong and I hope he also apologize.
But two wrong do not make a right.

Thanks

MaxInDHouse:
He's just a thief using the old traditional way of threatening people to join religion (Hellfire)
Apart from that he knows nothing that is why he always feels bad when he notice how competent JWs are so since he can't back what he's saying with God's word his next comment is "you will burn in hell"
If Jesus is the father then who was Jesus praying to?
To whom was Jesus being loyal?
Was he praying to himself and loyal to himself?
Compare to the two artistic impressions below and see which one is the real Jesus!

Max
Calling someone a thief is not civil and it is disrespectful. Please, retract the statement or apologize. Please.

MaxInDHouse:
When God appointed David as king in Israel does that makes David another creature than man?
So when God appointed one of His sons in heaven as judge it doesn't change his being as one of God's sons to God Himself.
Pastor Piri get that into your empty skull!

Jesus is not one of the many sons. Jesus is the only son. Hebrews 1:5 from your own Bible.
Hebrews 1:5; For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

So, if you want to add angels to it don't forget to add Adam because he was as called the son of God in Luke 3:38.
And don't forget to add us too because we are also sons and daughters of God.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
The differences between Jesus and us are:

1. Jesus is God but we are gods
2. Jesus is the one appointed to judge the dead and the living.

Correct sir.
The difference between the Father and the Son are
1. The Son proceeds from the Father, the Father proceeds from mo one.
2. The Father delegated ALL his powers to the Son while the Son returns all the glory to the Father.

SIR, YOU HAVE NOT REPLIED TO MY SEVEN POINTS RESOLUTION. I WILL BE EXPECTING YOUR RESPONSE.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
The fullness of God dwells in Jesus. Haven’t you read that?

Yes sir.
Just like the fullness of Christ dwells in me and you. But are we Christ because his fullness dwells in us?
This is Bible interpretation sir. There is no relationship that happens between the Father a d the son that the son does not accord the same between us and him.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
So, what have I said differently?

If we can agree on the following then, it means we are just speaking for the same thing in different forms.
1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. Thw holy spirit is the spirit of God (Father and Son)
4. The Father is greater than the son.
5. The Son is subject to the Father.
6. The Son is supreme over all things except the Father.
7. The Father is supreme over all things including the Son.

Do we agree sir or are there still grey areas you don't agree?

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
So, are you saying the Holy Spirit is lesser than Jesus because he receives instructions from Jesus?

Yes sir. That is what is consistent with scriptures sir. John 16:13-15
1. The holy spirit cannot speak of his own (he can only say what Christ has released to him to say)
2. He does not bring glory to himself but to Christ.

These two attributes are what Jesus does to the Father, the Holy spirit does the same to the son, but the Father does that to no one.
Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
How many times will you bring up this diagram?

Yea, I totally agree.
But the three personalities is one God. One God in three persons.

This is why the Holy Spirit is called Spirit of God and also called Spirit of Christ.

Your carnal mind certainly cannot grasp this truth.

You receive it in your spirit that is born again.

Ken
No sir. Okay, what will you say about the seven spirits of God in Revelation. Are they also God? Let's just keep to the scriptures by saying that the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Christ. Because that spirit is subject to the Son as the son is subject to the God.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is the spirit of God (both the Father and the son)

This is the position of the scriptures sir.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
John 14:9-11
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I AM IN THE FATHER, and THE FATHER IN ME: or else believe me for the very works' sake

Notice what Jesus said above:

1. He that has seen me has seen the father.

What does this statement mean to you?

2. I am in the Father and the Father in me.

They are inseparable. Jesus is exact replica of his Father.

Sir.
Interpretation of the scriptures is Key sir.
Now, let me explain John 14 to you sir. Jesus was speaking to the disciples about the Father and all that the Father has in preparation for the saints. Jesus started the introduction by saying, "you believe in God, believe also in me." That is, as much as you have trust in God's words, trust also in my words that when I live you, it is to prepare a place where both you and I will be. So, Jesus was asking his disciples to trust him like they would if God has spoken to them directly.
Philip was curious and was like, "can we even see this Father that you are talking so much about, if we can speak to him, it will be well with us, that is, our belief will be more assured. But Jesus, reaffirming what he said in verse 1, told Philip that he doesn't necessarily have to see the Father because everything he says has been authorized by the Father since he only speaks the will of the Father. It is just like when you are the CEO of your father's company and your father is the Chairman. A company came to deal with your company and you gave them your word but they still insist on seeing the Chairman who is your father. The best response you can give to them is to tell them, "Don't worry, whatever I tell you is what my father will tell you, best rest assured that you got the contract, there is not need for you to see my father, I am his representative and I speak his mind, so be rest assured."

That is the interpretation of the conversation sir. It is try that Jesus is the replica of the Father, but you know also that the word "replica" should that something replicates another, so there are two things. The Father on one hand and the Son (the Father's replica) on the other hand.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
Jesus said his Father is greater than him because he is subject to him. But that doesn't make him a lesser God in his very nature. In just the same way you are not less human because you are subject to your boss.

Do you know that the Holy Spirit is subject to Jesus instruction? Does it make the Holy Spirit a lesser God?

That a husband is the head of his wife doesn't make the wife less human.

Sir.
I think what we have issues with here is ENGLISH. There are three possibilities: greater than, lesser than and equal to. The only time an equation is balanced is when it is equal to. If one is greater than, then the other is lesser than.
Now, there is not scriptures that says the Holy Spirit is God. No single scriptures. So, let's stick to what the scriptures say that the holy Spirit is the spirit of god and of Christ.
The Father sent the son and the son sent the spirit. The Father is not answerable to the son but the son is answerable and obeys the Father. Sir, the son proceeds from the Father, the Father does not proceed from the son. Etc.
Sir, the issue hear is that you need to know the difference between EQUITY and EQUALITY.
EQUITY is a fair distribution where each person did not collect or have equal measure but they have they rightful measure they deserve. For instance, a person works for an hour and collected $50 while the other person works for 2 hours and collected $100 that is equity and that is what happens between a man and his wife and between the Father and his Son. Where both are highly honored and glorified which the accord that is due to them.
EQUALITY on the other hand is a 50/50 thing and that does not exist in a good family system where a woman believes that she must act in the exact form as her husband, such family will end in chaos. The Son does and will never drag the position of the Father as His God and Progenitor, that is why Jesus always accord everything to his father.

Sir, I hope you can just understand that talking about the position of the Father being higher that his Son Jesus doesn't diminish Jesus' position in any ways because the Son did not come to glorify himself but that the Father will be ultimately glorified in the Son.

Thanks. But you have not explained that 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. Please, quote it and explain each statement of the verses. Will really help us understand each other.

sonmvayina:
My own path. With my own experiences, me stakes and all.
WIth the universal laws to guide me

What are the universe laws sir. Can you itemize some?
Thanks

sonmvayina:
I left because , he was just a distraction to my spiritual journey.

Okay sir.
What path do you follow now on your spiritual journey.

Ken4Christ:
Jesus is not the Father, I agree. But they are different personalities of the same God. This is the point I am making. You can't separate them. The Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.

Exactly sir. Just as we are in him.
Now, the Father is God, the Son is also God. Correct.
In that Godhead. The son admitted that the Father is greater than him. We cannot overlook that statement of our Lord.
Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 also stated it clearly that the Son derived his power and authority from the Father and at the end of this dispensation when the salvation of mankind would be complete, the Son himself will subject himself under the authority of the Father and then the Father will be One and Supreme over all.
Sir, read that 1 Corinthians and give me your view over it.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
So, tell your wife she is inferior to you and notice her reaction

She knows, that is why she is submissive to me and I treat her with utmost love and respect. Thanks.

sonmvayina:
See Isaiah 45: 7
God is responsible for both good and evil.
You think evil can happen and God would not know about it? Not possible. For it to happen, it means God has okayed it.
People can believe what ever they like. Believe is free. But there is only one version of the truth. It is just for you to know it. Nobody will force you to believe it by faith.

"My people suffer for lack of knowledge".....so says the Lord.

Sir.
First and foremost, the passage you quoted was not just any knowledge. It is the knowledge of God because the priest then rejected God's knowledge. That aside.
We didn't talk about any scriptures, I only replied to you message where you said you left Christianity.
Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
Jesus said that because he was in human flesh that had limitations.

Concerning Jesus being the express image of God, have you forgotten where he said: "He that has seen me as seen the Father"

God is the first and the last. Jesus also said he is the first and the last. Common sense should let you know that they are the same person.

No sir.
Your point is wrong sir, sorry to say that.
Jesus is not the Father. What Jesus was telling Philip in John 14 was that he has the authority to do everything because the father has entrusted all things to him so therefore Philip do not need to see the Father for him to be sure of his salvation.
Remember in verse 1, the statement of Jesus was that of assurance. "You believe in God, believe also in me."

Across scriptures it is evident from Jesus and the apostle that the Father is the Father and Jesus is the son of the Father.
1. The Father is god and supreme over all things.
2. Jesus is god and supreme over all other things except the Father.
3. The Holy spirit is the spirit of God sent in Jesus' name as a seal to guide and lead believers into the promises of God both on this earth and to the kingdom of Christ in the earth to come.

The person of these three as explained above is the position and what is consistent with scriptures. Anything added to their person or subtracted from their person is not consistent with scriptures.
The scriptures alone is our constitution and our order both. Any addition or subtraction belongs to the dunghill.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
So, the wife is inferior to her husband?

Yes. A wife is inferior to the husband and the husband is superior to the wife. But it is not a master servant relationship but a relationship where on leads and the opinion of the other is also respected.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
Yes. The Almighty God in the visible form.

Sir.
The correct quotation of that scriptures is
Hebrews 1:3a
"For Christ is the express image of the invisible God..."
Express image does mean he is the same person. It only means of the same look, likeness and substance just like I am the express of my own father, I look like him, talk like him, have the same genotype and blood group and have some obvious elements of his Character.
Jesus is the representative of the Father to humans, God sent his son in his own likeness and substance but the Father is different from the Son.
For instance, the Father knows when the Son will appear for his second coming but the son himself does not know. He himself said it.
Matthew 24:36
[36]“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, [/b]not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.[b]

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
Are you inferior to your boss in the office? Please answer, yes or no.

Is the wife inferior to her husband?

Yes sir.
When I have an issue with my felli ranking colleague, the advice is that we should report to our superior officer which is our boss.
So, my boss is my superior so therefore I am inferior to my boss.
Just like saying, he is my senior, it means I am his junior.
The man is the head of the wife meaning he is the leader and the superior in ranking. Though it is not a master-slave relationship like Jesus is not a slave to his father but he accepts his position only second to the Father but he is above all else.
Or is it fact that because the scriptures called us Joint heirs with Christ does that make us equal and of the same level with Christ? Is Christ not the Head of the Church as the Father is the Head of Christ Himself? Christ is above all except the Father who his above Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22