₦airaland Forum

tctrills:
Boss I was like you when I started discussing with this boy a few years ago. I actually believed he was honest. I even defended him and his organization.
I bet he will never answer your question. He will quote verses that have zero relevance to the topic and at the end, he will advertise his church to you.
I understand that you have an open mind but when it goes as I have predicted, remember to mention me.

I will keep that in mind sir.
I will do my best to remain civil and when it's become uncivil I will bow out. It's not a discussion of win and lose. It is a discussion of this is my view and this is yours.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
You are really funny!

You dodged the question i asked you just to go back and forth thinking you are smart shey?

Well before the Jews ruined everything for themselves Jesus is expected to rule from where exactly?

Max
Lol...you keep boxing yourself.
Before the Jews ruined everything?
Was Jesus supposed to be crowned king in his first coming?
Wasn't his first coming for his death and penalty for sin? And his second coming to be crowned King in Jerusalem on David's throne?
So, what did the Jews ruined? Were they supposed to crown him king and not put him on the tree?
Because to me what happened at his first coming, his rejection and death was all part of the plan. DONT YOU AGREE? TALK OOO.

BACK TO MY QUESTION.
Two thrones, one for the Son and the other for the Father.
Scriptural references please. I am waiting.

MAX
JUST ACCEPT THAT THE FATHER HAS EXALTED THE SON TO SIT WITH HIM ON HIS THRONE AND LETS MOVE ON. SIR.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Employment is not supporting any man's government it's like you working under a boss who can fire you if you're not competent enough for the task {Proverbs 23:29} unlike you being a politician who joined the struggle to help your choice secure the seat in government, whether competent or not you must be given a position in that government.

Do you get it now?

Max.
Lol. Let me agree without conceding even though you analogy is flawed because not everyone who voted is a politician, but let's leave that.
Since you people don't vote nor join politics BECAUSE THE APOSTLES DIDN'T DO THAT.
Which Apostle worked for the government and collect pay from them that we can attribute working with government to?
Maybe I didn't get the apostle's name, can you remind me please with the verses. I will appreciate.

Since the apostles are our model, aren't they?
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
If you don't study the Bible from Genesis you can never ever understand what is written in the book of Revelations!

The throne God promised the Christ is David's throne {Isaiah 9:6-7; Luke 1:32} or God's throne? Chronicles 29:23

Humble yourself and study the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, let us teach you what is written in our book: Bible!

Max.
You are only boycotting the answer. All the passage you quoted are up there in the brain but you didn't right divide them.
If I ask you another question from the explanation you quoted now, you will make mistakes again the believe of the JW.
Let me tease you small before I go back to my main question you left unanswered.
Teasing questions:
Has Jesus taken the throne of David already or Jesus will take the throne of David in his second coming during the millennium reign?
Let me see maybe you will contravene the JW doctrine because you seem to have box yourself based on the reply you gave above.

BACK TO MY QUESTION.
Which scriptures prove that there are two throne IN HEAVEN (not on earth, David's throne) where the Father is sitting on one and the Son is sitting on the other?

Thanks.

gohf:
care to explain what it means for Jesus to deliver you from sin?

The word "deliver" means "set free." The knowledge of Christ and his will sets one free from sin.
John 8:31
[31]Jesus said to the people who believed in him, “You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.

When one through the knowledge of Christ turns away from his old ways to the newness of life. He is free indeed from his old sin and he is now a new being in Christ.
Ephesians 5:1-3,6-8
[1]Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children.
[2]Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God.
[3]Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people.
[6]Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.
[7]Don’t participate in the things these people do.
[8]For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light!

So, the knowledge and acceptance of Christ nature and will in our lives sets us from sin.

THANKS.

cornelboy:
No be you quote the Throne verse lol

Rev 3:12 NIV
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Mr teacher

Smile, sir, if Jesus claims he is sitting with his father on his throne after he overcame. If you were asked where Jesus is sitting? Is the answer not "his father's throne? Which is also his throne?
For instance, if I live in my father's house with my father and I said come to my house for a meeting. Won't those I am addressing come to my father's house? Yes of course they will because my father's house is my house cos I live there.

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
So ask (not tease) them because your salvation depends on knowing the truth not teasing up and down thinking everything is alright!

You have not answered my question on politics and government employment. Or should I take ur silence as "you don't wanna talk about it?"
I Will respect your wish.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
This is why we often plead with you people to STUDY not just read the Bible with us. Note that your friendship with us is neighbourly you are not on the same page with us so i will go straight to the points then you can ask them to expatiate more:

*God's Kingdom was established with the first human couple in Eden.
*God's Kingdom left after the rebellion in Eden.
*It was restored after God established a nation called Israel.
*They are to become kings and priests for other nations to benefit from them.
*They demanded for a King and God told them that human kings will maltreat them because He is their rightful King.
*They were supposed to wait for God's anointed King and Priest who will teach them how to help other nations.
*But they rejected that arrangement and continued practicing idolatry.
*God punished them several times until the arrival of the anointed King and Priest.
*They rejected the anointed King and all what God sent him to teach them.
*The few Jews who believe in the anointed King felt worried because of horrible things he said about Jerusalem.
*So Jerusalem the supposed center of God's Kingdom on earth was rejected by the anointed King.
*He consoled his faithful friends that he will go and establish his kingdom in the heavens.
*He will come back and take his corulers there with him.

God's heavenly throne has been there from the onset and as God's first human son Adam supposed to be our father here on earth who will be dispensing truth about his heavenly father to all his descendants but after he became a rebel he lost that privilege that's why Jesus have to step in as replacement for Adam. So the purpose of Christ's 1,000 years reign is to help obedient mankind gain perfection after which he must go back to his position as God's heavenly son while we will be having a direct dealing with our heavenly Father and God but we can never ever forget what Jesus did to help us regain the glory we as humans have in the beginning before Adam's rebellion.
So the throne designated for Jesus was not the one God has always sat on from the beginning rather another throne was set up in heaven to replace earthly throne in Jerusalem that was condemned due to the attitude of Jews! Matthew 23:37-38


If you have any question let me know!

Max
Good analogy sir I must say you did a great job and I agree with the breakdown and summary of the creation to the end of human reign on earth. You were correct sir. BUT
You didn't answer my question and the Matthew 23:37-38 you quoted is unrelated to the question sir.
What scriptural proof shows that the Father and the son have two different thrones?
Revelation 3:21 shows they both sit on the same throne with Stephen's vision showing that Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father on that throne, and Revelation 5 shows that there is only one throne surrounded by twenty four other thrones which are for the elders. All points to just One big throne.

MAX, WHAT SCRIPTURES SHOW THAT THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THRONES? ONE FOR THE FATHER AND THE OTHER FOR THE SON.
You have never quoted any passage relating to thrones. I have given you THREE SCRIPTURES SIR

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
So ask (not tease) them because your salvation depends on knowing the truth not teasing up and down thinking everything is alright!

Max.
I am asking you now, because they really could not answer me and I decided not to press for based on mutual respect.
If you answer me cool, but if you choose not to, I won't press further, out of respect too.
SO, WILL YOU?
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
The funny thing with you is you always underestimate the oneness in thought among Jehovah's Witnesses.
Don't stay here please go to anywhere on this planet and ask any JW.

Jehovah and Jesus have separate thrones!

Max.
I want to agree with you, sincerely I really want to, but Revelation 3:21 is saying otherwise but maybe you can just show me a place in the scriptures I am not seeing that prove your point and I will just agree. I am that simple. I await.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Na wah for you o!

How long have you known these people?

Why can't you iron out this matter with them since they are with you there and you are their friend?

I'm sure you never engage them on this matter that's why you are imagining things instead of asking them.
They will never ever vote for any leader because it's crime against humanity and God not because Apostles didn't vote o!

Max.
I have engaged them, even planning to do Easter with them at the kingdom hall. We just talked lightly about. I tease them sometimes and we just make fun about somethings. I respect them a lot and they do same. Just like I am teasing you now and your trying to deflect.

MaxInDHouse:
This thread makes it easy but trust these misinformed religionists they will still not get it.

To them Jehovah vacate His throne and Jesus sat on it!

Max.
Do your agree with Cornelius that Jesus and his father have two different throne. I am optimistic that you don't. You are wiser than that. I know because the scriptures is in your head and Revelation 3:21 rings in the memory too that the Father and the son sits on the same throne. Smile.
Revelation 3:21
[21]Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
So ask them nah after all they are your friends.

One thing you failed to understand about JWs is that you are not their brother in faith but you are their neighbour so we are peaceful with everyone around us no matter your religion! Romans 12:18

For our neighbours Jesus commanded us to LOVE them as we do ourselves {Mark 12:31} for our fellow believers he commanded us to LOVE the same way he love us. John 13:34-35

You can't know the difference so i will expatiate:

LOVE like ourselves means we should do what we expected others to do for us to a neighbour but LOVE just as Jesus loves means preparedness to die for our fellow believers if the need arises.

So we love all our neighbours equally it's for our fellow believers that we have what is called LOYAL LOVE!

Max.
You know our conversation is with mutual respect and I appreciate that. But you have shied away from my direct question.
If they are not permitted by scriptures to vote for politicians to be in government because non of the apostles whom you follow after didn't involve themselves in politics, thats good, but should they also be making their living off the government that comprises of this politicians because we don't also see the apostles work for the then government to make their living? They excluded themselves totally and did their private work.
Shouldn't they also exclude themselves from being paid by the government they didn't vote in and do their private practice or business to make their living?
Since we are following the lifestyle of the apostles. I do not think we should cherry pick. Should we?

SMILES.

MaxInDHouse:
Do they vote?

No, they don't sir.

MaxInDHouse:
Ask them if they don't vote first!

I am even at their place now. What a wonderful people. They don't vote and the husband is also an elder, a very good one at that. I respect them and they do same to me.
Having answered your question. What say you sir?

I am a Christian, but do I believe my religion is superior? No, I don't.
I always tell people, it doesn't matter where you belong, it only matter what you do where you find yourself. Across all religions, I say
Do to others what you want done to you.
Would you want anyone to kill you? Don't kill anyone.
Would you want people you do business with to cheat you? Don't cheat anyone.
Would you want your master or employer to delay your salary or wages? Don't do that to your employees.
Would you like anyone to judge you without giving you fair airing? Don't judge anyone without hearing their own side of the story.

DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU WANT DONE TO YOU.
All men shall be Judged by their WORKS.
THANKS.

MaxInDHouse:
Go and ask your JW friends since you're saying they don't see anything evil in the things you do i'm sure they will explain more to you while sitting face to face with them.

One thing i can tell you is that it's a crime against God and humanity to back any human ruler after John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth has declared saying:

"The Kingdom of heaven is at hand" Matthew 3:2; 4:17

Smile. I have had such discussions with them and we have reasoned brother.
I do not think based on your point sir, that we should work for that same government and collect salary from them. Because one of these my friends is a seasoned doctor in the Federal Medical Center here in my state and the Federal government pays him monthly. His wife whom I am also very close to is a seasoned electrical engineer in this same medical center under the pay of the federal government.

WHAT SAY YOU SIR.
WE CANT VOTE THEM BUT WE CAN WORK FOR THEM AND COLLECT OUR EARNINGS FROM THEM?
Which of the disciples worked for the government or herods or pilates or Caesars or make their living by working in their government or regime.

Brother, look at things from different lenses and your knowledge of the scriptures will benefit more lives because I know your intentions are pure.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
You missed the mark!

That person is facing a community where anyone who profess to believe in Jesus will be castigated so he is already one of Jesus' group but the Apostles thought since he is not with them bodily he can't be a disciple.
That totally differs from what is happening today, different religions claiming Christians yet participating in politics and wars are no part of disciples of the Prince of Peace!

Max. When the righteous rule, the people rejoice but when the wicked rules the people groan.
Who are the righteous?
Why do you think believers should back out of politics?

MaxInDHouse:
Complications results from choice when all of us need to figure out the group God is using to dispense spiritual food.

We Jehovah's Witnesses believe our God is using only the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses so whoever disagree with that can't possibly be a worshiper of our God! Matthew 24:45

What if the person does not disagree but at the same time he is not just a member of your group. Is the person also lost because he is not in your group? He is not JW?
Please, don't tell me yes, please.

MaxInDHouse:
We are not scared to be different! Matthew 10:24-28

You are correct sir. But same Jesus said in
Mark 9:38-40
[38]John said to Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn’t in our group.”
[39]“Don’t stop him!” Jesus said. “No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me.
[40]Anyone who is not against us is for us.

Whoever it is that believe that there is a maker of the universe who will judge his work whether good or bad and lived a good life towards his neighbors. Whether or not they are In my group, it doesn't matter, I love them as I would a brother.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
That's how many rejected Jesus so it's not new!

Smile. I belyyou already gotten my analogy.

Thanks sir.

MaxInDHouse:
If that's your own opinion fine but that's the name uniting millions throughout the world as peace loving worshipers so there is no need disputing over what is YIELDING POSITIVE RESULTS!

Sir. I am not against that. I called my God "Jehovah" too. I am only saying the difference between the Father and the son has nothing to do with the name.
It is a FACT that The Father is Greater and Superior to The Son.
I am only saying, since a lot have agreed to the above, let's not complicate it with the name again.
Thanks.

jaephoenix:
Any evidence of this god?

Okay. Let's give our self a litmus test sir.
If you can answer this question convincingly I will agree with you that God do not exist sir.

WHICH ONE CAME FIRST, THE EGG OR THE HEN?

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
That's why you can't be my brother in the faith because one must be right while the other must be wrong if we are truthful to ourselves there can't be two contradicting statements and both will be right!

6 will be 6 to me if I am looking north and it will be nine to you if you are looking south. Who is wrong and who is right? The one facing south or the one facing north?
It will be difficult if you are a judge to pass verdict if you don't look at it from both side. People will just claim you are biased as they used to claim that you are biased towards JW doctrine.

MaxInDHouse:
NO!
He is saying Jesus is Jehovah that's what Trinity means!

You know the etymology of the name JEHOVAH is controversial. The semitic language at the time and the Canaan people have a god called Yahweh at the time according to the Ugaritic text which predicted the book of Job which is the oldest book of the Bible. Just like Yoruba adopted "Olorun" as the Yoruba translation of the Jewish god during the Crowder's translation.
So, let's take the Fathers name as the Father and the supreme god and Jesus as the son of the supreme god.
Let's just leave the concept of Jehovah for the Father and all that. Cos that will bring a question of is "El" then the Father of Yahweh (Jehovah? Those specific names complicate history and I do my best just to stay away.

I have read comments from all sides. These are strong issues with strong points from all sides. All sides are correct and backed the points up with scriptural texts.

MY TAKE
These are the issues and these reasons why they are difficult.
1. Is god all powerful?
2. Is god all present?
3. Is god all knowing?

The Obvious answers to these questions are "if you call a person God or the supreme god, they he should have all these three criteria." That is the obvious answer.

But there are some questions that begs answers.
1. If God is all powerful, can't he just forgive the devil and move on or forgive everybody and move on or control everybody's (men's) minds to do all that he want and there will be no sin?
The question above shows that there are things God cannot do because he cannot contradict himself. So, one way or another, though he is all powerful, he can't just do anything.

2. If God is all present, and we see the lake of fire as either a place of eternal destruction or a place of eternal separation from God, it means the presence of God is not in the lake of fire, those people do not have the presence of God with them. That shows that if the presence of God is not in the lake of fire, then he is not everywhere literally.

3. If God is all knowing, does that mean he knows those who will be saved and those who will not? If yes, why do we preach or tell people to repent or come to Christ since whatever decision they make does not change anything since their future had been known already by God. What is the essence of freewill then. That means, if God has given everyone the freewill to choose, does that not mean that God has left men to make decisions and face the aftermath without him robotting them?

MY SUBMISSION
1. It is true that our God can be present wherever he chooses, but he also have that power to restrict himself from being in where he chooses not to. We can't deny him if that power or choice to choose. Can we?

2. God is all powerful, but he can't be tempted to do evil or act unjustly. His powers though all powerful but it is restricted to his nature as a just and holy good to ONLY do good and justice.

3. It is true that God is all knowing ONLY TO WHAT HE CHOOSES TO KNOW. He alone can restrict himself from knowing what he chooses not to know or intentionally forget those he chooses to forget. From scriptures we know that something catches God by surprise because he chooses OF HIS OWN ACCORD not to interfere with somethings.

RESOLUTION
1. God is all powerful BUT HIS POWER IS RESTRICTED TO DOING GOOD AND JUST.
2. God is all knowing BUT HIS KNOWLEDGE IS RESTRICTED TO HIS CHOICE AND WILL.
3. God is all present BUT HIS PRESENCE IS RESTRICTED TO HIS OWN CHOICE AND WILL.

Thanks.

tctrills:
Hmm, he will not. But that's not a problem. I am ok with people not agreeing with me but when one starts being intentionally dishonest, that's another thing.

Okay sir.
I don't just like back and forth. I believe once we make our points known, and also the other side makes his known, we can have a civil conversation. But when it is degenerating to back and forth or uncivil arguments. I prefer, the mature one should just take a bow out.
Thanks.

tctrills:
I expressly told you that the Father is greater than the Son. That has never been in argument.

That's wonderful. We have the same approach to the person of Jesus.
I Thinks it only Max that is still considering my proposal to him then.
That Jesus is god (in the context of his divinity and deity) based on the fact that his Father has exalted him to his throne to sit with him on his throne and given in a name that is above all other names.
I just hope Max will see my point from that lens and we all put this to rest.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
@ Immaculate
Where are you?
Do you see what i'm saying?
Only Jehovah's Witnesses can agree but all of you are SCATTERED spiritually speaking! Luke 11:23

The reason why you guys are ashamed to mention the name of your church is not to expose yourself because members of the same church don't agree that's why no church has agreed to do the work Jesus assigned to his disciples as he commissioned it each of you will just go to the streets and start making noice claiming he is preaching!

Max.
I know you know me sir. I have never believed anyone is wrong on any issue sir. I also want to know their side of the story and why they think the way they do and respect their choice.
I share my thoughts and create a balance but I never prove people wrong for holding a thought that may change tomorrow.

tctrills:
The argument was not about who is greater. I never said the Son is greater than the Father. The argument was about who is God. And my answer is, both. Jesus Christ is God just as his Father is God. You notice I use capital G for both. The Hebrew and Greek alphabets did not have small g Gods and capital G gods. The small g God is a modern western idea.

You are correct sir on the Hebrew and on you stand that Jesus is god. We are on the same view. Max didn't even argue that with me when I made that history submission because I explained the meaning of the word "god" and it's etymology. But you have not been clear on one things sir. I will ask a question and if you answer is Yes, we are fully on the same page, but if no, then there is an issue.
My Question.
Is the Father greater than the Son?

MaxInDHouse:
So what are you doing here arguing over DOCTRINES?

You guys just love lying to your own souls!

You know , I don't argue. I look at issues from all lenses. You were correct on your point, he was correct on his. Both of you are saying different things but on one point. The Person of Jesus and his relationship with his father.
He was more focused on the person of Jesus and the authority he has
And you were focused on the relationship of Jesus with his father which made his father superior to him because he delegated the authority to him.

delkuf:
it seems you are new here in nl. You don't know maxi and what he stand for

Smile. Sir. I have been here since 2015. I know what each and every one of them stands for. Max is a core Jehovah's Witness. I have studied his write ups and comments over the years, both the pros and the cons. Thanks.