₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
We are not scared to be different! Matthew 10:24-28

You are correct sir. But same Jesus said in
Mark 9:38-40
[38]John said to Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn’t in our group.”
[39]“Don’t stop him!” Jesus said. “No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me.
[40]Anyone who is not against us is for us.

Whoever it is that believe that there is a maker of the universe who will judge his work whether good or bad and lived a good life towards his neighbors. Whether or not they are In my group, it doesn't matter, I love them as I would a brother.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
That's how many rejected Jesus so it's not new!

Smile. I belyyou already gotten my analogy.

Thanks sir.

MaxInDHouse:
If that's your own opinion fine but that's the name uniting millions throughout the world as peace loving worshipers so there is no need disputing over what is YIELDING POSITIVE RESULTS!

Sir. I am not against that. I called my God "Jehovah" too. I am only saying the difference between the Father and the son has nothing to do with the name.
It is a FACT that The Father is Greater and Superior to The Son.
I am only saying, since a lot have agreed to the above, let's not complicate it with the name again.
Thanks.

jaephoenix:
Any evidence of this god?

Okay. Let's give our self a litmus test sir.
If you can answer this question convincingly I will agree with you that God do not exist sir.

WHICH ONE CAME FIRST, THE EGG OR THE HEN?

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
That's why you can't be my brother in the faith because one must be right while the other must be wrong if we are truthful to ourselves there can't be two contradicting statements and both will be right!

6 will be 6 to me if I am looking north and it will be nine to you if you are looking south. Who is wrong and who is right? The one facing south or the one facing north?
It will be difficult if you are a judge to pass verdict if you don't look at it from both side. People will just claim you are biased as they used to claim that you are biased towards JW doctrine.

MaxInDHouse:
NO!
He is saying Jesus is Jehovah that's what Trinity means!

You know the etymology of the name JEHOVAH is controversial. The semitic language at the time and the Canaan people have a god called Yahweh at the time according to the Ugaritic text which predicted the book of Job which is the oldest book of the Bible. Just like Yoruba adopted "Olorun" as the Yoruba translation of the Jewish god during the Crowder's translation.
So, let's take the Fathers name as the Father and the supreme god and Jesus as the son of the supreme god.
Let's just leave the concept of Jehovah for the Father and all that. Cos that will bring a question of is "El" then the Father of Yahweh (Jehovah? Those specific names complicate history and I do my best just to stay away.

I have read comments from all sides. These are strong issues with strong points from all sides. All sides are correct and backed the points up with scriptural texts.

MY TAKE
These are the issues and these reasons why they are difficult.
1. Is god all powerful?
2. Is god all present?
3. Is god all knowing?

The Obvious answers to these questions are "if you call a person God or the supreme god, they he should have all these three criteria." That is the obvious answer.

But there are some questions that begs answers.
1. If God is all powerful, can't he just forgive the devil and move on or forgive everybody and move on or control everybody's (men's) minds to do all that he want and there will be no sin?
The question above shows that there are things God cannot do because he cannot contradict himself. So, one way or another, though he is all powerful, he can't just do anything.

2. If God is all present, and we see the lake of fire as either a place of eternal destruction or a place of eternal separation from God, it means the presence of God is not in the lake of fire, those people do not have the presence of God with them. That shows that if the presence of God is not in the lake of fire, then he is not everywhere literally.

3. If God is all knowing, does that mean he knows those who will be saved and those who will not? If yes, why do we preach or tell people to repent or come to Christ since whatever decision they make does not change anything since their future had been known already by God. What is the essence of freewill then. That means, if God has given everyone the freewill to choose, does that not mean that God has left men to make decisions and face the aftermath without him robotting them?

MY SUBMISSION
1. It is true that our God can be present wherever he chooses, but he also have that power to restrict himself from being in where he chooses not to. We can't deny him if that power or choice to choose. Can we?

2. God is all powerful, but he can't be tempted to do evil or act unjustly. His powers though all powerful but it is restricted to his nature as a just and holy good to ONLY do good and justice.

3. It is true that God is all knowing ONLY TO WHAT HE CHOOSES TO KNOW. He alone can restrict himself from knowing what he chooses not to know or intentionally forget those he chooses to forget. From scriptures we know that something catches God by surprise because he chooses OF HIS OWN ACCORD not to interfere with somethings.

RESOLUTION
1. God is all powerful BUT HIS POWER IS RESTRICTED TO DOING GOOD AND JUST.
2. God is all knowing BUT HIS KNOWLEDGE IS RESTRICTED TO HIS CHOICE AND WILL.
3. God is all present BUT HIS PRESENCE IS RESTRICTED TO HIS OWN CHOICE AND WILL.

Thanks.

tctrills:
Hmm, he will not. But that's not a problem. I am ok with people not agreeing with me but when one starts being intentionally dishonest, that's another thing.

Okay sir.
I don't just like back and forth. I believe once we make our points known, and also the other side makes his known, we can have a civil conversation. But when it is degenerating to back and forth or uncivil arguments. I prefer, the mature one should just take a bow out.
Thanks.

tctrills:
I expressly told you that the Father is greater than the Son. That has never been in argument.

That's wonderful. We have the same approach to the person of Jesus.
I Thinks it only Max that is still considering my proposal to him then.
That Jesus is god (in the context of his divinity and deity) based on the fact that his Father has exalted him to his throne to sit with him on his throne and given in a name that is above all other names.
I just hope Max will see my point from that lens and we all put this to rest.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
@ Immaculate
Where are you?
Do you see what i'm saying?
Only Jehovah's Witnesses can agree but all of you are SCATTERED spiritually speaking! Luke 11:23

The reason why you guys are ashamed to mention the name of your church is not to expose yourself because members of the same church don't agree that's why no church has agreed to do the work Jesus assigned to his disciples as he commissioned it each of you will just go to the streets and start making noice claiming he is preaching!

Max.
I know you know me sir. I have never believed anyone is wrong on any issue sir. I also want to know their side of the story and why they think the way they do and respect their choice.
I share my thoughts and create a balance but I never prove people wrong for holding a thought that may change tomorrow.

tctrills:
The argument was not about who is greater. I never said the Son is greater than the Father. The argument was about who is God. And my answer is, both. Jesus Christ is God just as his Father is God. You notice I use capital G for both. The Hebrew and Greek alphabets did not have small g Gods and capital G gods. The small g God is a modern western idea.

You are correct sir on the Hebrew and on you stand that Jesus is god. We are on the same view. Max didn't even argue that with me when I made that history submission because I explained the meaning of the word "god" and it's etymology. But you have not been clear on one things sir. I will ask a question and if you answer is Yes, we are fully on the same page, but if no, then there is an issue.
My Question.
Is the Father greater than the Son?

MaxInDHouse:
So what are you doing here arguing over DOCTRINES?

You guys just love lying to your own souls!

You know , I don't argue. I look at issues from all lenses. You were correct on your point, he was correct on his. Both of you are saying different things but on one point. The Person of Jesus and his relationship with his father.
He was more focused on the person of Jesus and the authority he has
And you were focused on the relationship of Jesus with his father which made his father superior to him because he delegated the authority to him.

delkuf:
it seems you are new here in nl. You don't know maxi and what he stand for

Smile. Sir. I have been here since 2015. I know what each and every one of them stands for. Max is a core Jehovah's Witness. I have studied his write ups and comments over the years, both the pros and the cons. Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Another flaw!

It's either one is right while the other is wrong, this is the reason why you people have formed over 41,000 sects all claiming Christians with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines!

Holding that one side must be right and the other wrong is the flaw sir. Jesus is not interested in denomination, he is interested in the individual who does his will.
Thanks.

tctrills:
Wrong, I know that the Father delegated Authority to his Son. That was never my argument.
Infact, I am arguing that the Father gave all things to his Son. And that all titles of the Father belong to the Son.

You are correct sir according to John 5:23.
John 5:23
[23]so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

But he was also right by saying that the Father who gave his son (Jesus) ALL authority is greater than Jesus. And that is also true according to John 14:28.
John 14:28
[28]Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am.

I don't think you disagree with that sir. Thanks.

I have studied tctrills and Max argument and I can only deduce just one misunderstanding.
1. Max do not agree with tctrills that Jesus is god in his nature and the Father has delegated ALL authority to him, making him Almighty.
2. tctrills will not agree with Max that the Father who delegated the authority to his son (Jesus) is greater than Jesus thereby making Jesus a subordinate to someone which is the Father.

The issue is BOTH OF THEM ARE CORRECT. But they didn't just know they are looking at two different points.

1. Jesus is god (all powerful) because the father has committed ALL things into his hands until the end of days. And the Father made this known. Just like Pharaoh did with Joseph during the plenty and famine period, thereby making Joseph THE LEADER OF EGYPT in Pharaoh's stead.
John 5:22
[22]In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge,

2. The Father is definitely greater than his son (Jesus) and Jesus also retriated this severally.
1 Corinthians 15:27-28
[27]For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
[28]Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

LET US ALL PURSUE THE PATH OF PEACE AND UNDERSTANDING.
THANKS.

Cashel:
I Am An Atheist; Christian Faithful Explains Gods Existence To An Atheist #GodExist #Atheist



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nr1dTz8K9k

There is a question I always ask atheists that they can't answer. Let me ask you. If you can answer convincingly, I will advise you continue as an atheist, but if you can't, I will advise you believe that there is a creator behind all your seeing. The question.

WHICH ONE EXISTED FIRST, THE HEN OR THE EGG?

Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
So did the Father elevate the son before coming to earth according to your explanation of "equal with"?

I quoted it for you alreat sir.
the glory we shared ...before the foundation of the world.

Even the Pharisees understood the gravity of. Jesus calling himself the son of God which make him equal with God. Read it yourself.

John 5:18,23
[18]So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God.

[23]so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

Can you see, Jesus was equal with god before Incarnation, when he was alive and when he is now at the right hand of the Father.
Jesus even said that he should be honored just exactly the way the father his honored.

Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
Oga so you are saying that Jesua was "equal with" God before coming to the earth?

Did I say it or Philippians 2:6 said it? It is me or Paul?

Truthseeker10:
John 17:5 contains Jesus's word to be restored to glory shared before the world began.

Philippians 2:6 that you quoted says that though Jesus was God, he did not think of "Equality with" God.

You claim that Jesus is "equal with" the Father now. So what kind of "Glory that was shared" was John 17:5 that you quoted talking about?

I have explained it sir. I don't know exact your viewpoint so I can know what exactly you have issues with.
Philippians 2:9-11 has answered it clearly what the glory was.

Philippians 2:9-11
[9]Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
    and gave him the name above all other names,
[10]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[11]and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

That is the glory they shared, where the Father is glorified in the son. It's not as if it is an egg, where two people divide it into two. But a glory where the glory that comes to the son glorifies the Father. God is well please with him in all things.

All the old testament prophets were ministered to through angels. The Father and the Son never walked in the realm of men. The angels mediated between the heavens and the earth. The son (Jesus) only manifested in his reincarnation for salvation.
So, the old testament until Mary were ministered through angels. While the new testament was ministered through the Jesus.
Hebrews 2:2-3
[2]For the message God delivered through angels has always stood firm, and every violation of the law and every act of disobedience was punished.
[3]So what makes us think we can escape if we ignore this great salvation that was first announced by the Lord Jesus himself and then delivered to us by those who heard him speak?

Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
So according to your explanation of "equal with" and "equal to", How do we explain the equality of the Father and son before Jesus came to earth when we combine Philippians 2:6 and John 17:5? Was Jesus "Equal with" or "Equal to" the Father before Coming to earth?

I do not understand what you want me to explain now. Are you saying the son is the Father? If yes, that is not anywhere consistent with the scriptures. If no, then one must be greater. And from Jesus himself, the Father is greater than I am. It clear it. I think you need to look for my explanation of the Father and son relationship in the other thread.
You haven't shared your view withe, so at least I can know where we agree and where we dont.Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
Is Jesus "equal with" the Father now? Yes or no?

Yes sir. That is the position of the scriptures according to Philippians 2:6
Philippians 2:6
[6]Though he was God,
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.
And John 17:5
John 17:5
[5]Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
So is the Son "equal with" the Father Now?

I know you have read my context. Pls, if there are any issues, pls let me know ur viewpoint .I am a reasonable person and I am not rigid and if we can't agree on some issues. I will pay my full respect.
Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
So are you saying that Jesus was not "Equal with" God before coming to the earth? Was there no Trinity before Jesus came to earth?

Read my modified message.
I have dealt with how the Trinity message should be treated in another thread and that has broutpeace and understanding to the thread.
The Father (1) sent his son (2) to die for man. After his death and ascension, The son by his father's authority sent his spirit (3) to guide all the saved in that journey. That should be the Trinity message. All are one and united in purpose. But the Father is greater than the son and the son is greater than the spirit. That is the position from the scriptures.
Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
Is the Christ equal to the Father?

Read my reply above in my response (sorry, it is in another forum) . Equal with as used in Philippians 2 is different from equal to.
I am an English expert and teacher.
"Equal with" means exalted to a state of similar rank with a distinct.
"Equal to" means being of equality in all forms where one cannot succumb to the other.

So, Jesus is equal with god but not equal to god.
Equal with God means God has exalted him to a place where all creation honor him, but not equal to god because he is subject to his father in all things.

tctrills:
I believe you are mostly correct. But when you say that the Son will but himself under God's authority, it seems like you are saying that the Son is not God.
I prefer you say that the Son will put himself under the Father's authority.

My point has been that the Son is not just another God, he like the Father is the one true God.

I guess that's where I different with most.

We both agree. We just need to fine tune wat we agreed on. On you last statement, this is my view below.
Jesus is god in the context of his divinity but since the father is greater than the son, don't you think the Father is a superior god than the son. Let's look at some Bible context, but if you disagree, you will show me ur context too and then we reason and see what goes on from our reasoning.
1. Jesus agreed that the Father is greater than him. John 14:28.
2. Jesus affirm that the Father is his own god. John 20:17.
3. Jesus confessed that it is only the Father that is all knowing. That there are something he himself doesn't know. Matthew 24:36.
4. Jesus affirm that it is only the Father that is all able and there are things he cannot do but only the Father can. Matthew 20:23.
5. Jesus confirmed that the Father is the One true god. John 17:3.

You can see that I didn't even quote the apostles. Only Jesus himself in clear term.
Those are irrefutable proof from Jesus himself that the Father is the superior god whom alone is above Jesus.

That was why I said. Jesus is god and above all other creations but subject only to the Father who alone is superior and supreme to all including his son.
I think that's what Paul clarified in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.

Thanks and god bless you.

Truthseeker10:
So do you agree that we must have the knowledge of the Father and his messenger Jesus Christ?

I am a believer. So, it's a yes for me. I know the Father and his Christ.

Truthseeker10:
How did your forefathers hear of God without any Christian missionaries?

I really have not known your stand on the op question.
I like to engage people civilly and respect their opinion as I do that. Can I know your view and perspective sir on the op direct question. Thanks sir

Truthseeker10:
Below is John 17:3.

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Who is the "thee the only true God" in John 17:3?

Is the Father ofcourse. No sane person should argue that. But do not neglect the other part.... [b][/b]and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

MaxInDHouse:
Paul is very careful not to stumble any of those who have embraced Christianity so those from James doesn't necessarily mean they hold the same opinion with James otherwise these ones knowing fully well that James is Jesus' half brother don't need confirmation from anyone else if James had agreed with them.
Surely they came looking for contrary opinion to know if James was wrong!

I think we have both made our points and showed our perspectives. Thanks for the honor. You are respected sir.

Truthseeker10:
You did not get my question. In John 17:3, how many persons do we need to know to get everlasting life?

Direct answer.
As a believer, Jesus is enough for me to deliver me from sin.
Thanks.