₦airaland Forum

ozoigbondu:
Silly American that thinks she is in yankee landb

luxanne:
Finally done reading all I've missed. Wow! What an educating read

Thanks Joywendy for your time, really do appreciate your efforts in this

Hmm. Didn't know the king could even move 2 steps (castling), looking forward to that lecture.

Btw, its only in chess I've come to see that the Queen protects her King, in reality, no be so o the King is considered a weakling or coward if he dares it chei, this chess King sha

KoloOyinbo:
May I also state that I am NOT making a religion of Atheism - I did not create the thread or choose the wording.

My original premise was that to believe their is no God requires just as much a leap of FAITH as to believe there is a God. Only the Agnostic does not require FAITH.

MUCH of the discussion here has been because of people not being clear on the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism AND indded on the poor definitions we have seen of them.

plaetton:
Lol.

Christians are so oblivious of the imporyant role of hallucinogenic drugs in the development of the world's major religions.

manmustwac:
@post
So if atheism is a religion what is the meaning of the word atheist? So there's no such thing as a non religious person is there?

KoloOyinbo:
Not really. You are merely playing with words. I stand by my premise and see nothing to shake it except if we adopt your definition mixing agnostics and atheists together.

plaetton:
I can see why you are mixing atheism with faith.
The trick word here is "believe".
You are either doing deliberately or ignorantly.

Christians and atheists do not use the word "believe" in the same context.

In Christianity, one needs faith to believe in a talking snake or talking donkey, or that a ho.r.NY holy spirit r.a.ped a virgin to beget the saviour of the world. You need FAITH to BELiEVE in that crap.
On the other hand, I do not need faith point out that a so- called spirit cannot have sexual urges, let alone intercourse, produce sperm to produce babies.
I Believe that is impossible, because it is not possible.

Like wise, if you BELIEVE that sun stood still for Joshua, that requires a lot of faith.
If I say that I BELIEVE it didn't and couldn't have happened, that requires on common sense based on personal observation and thousands of years of science.
So you see that "BELIEVE " in these two instances, are from two different frames of mind.

So, it is disingenuous of you to try to prove that the act of "Believing" for both Christian and atheist, portray the same mindset.

KoloOyinbo:
OK. I was trying to keep things to a general Theist level. If we introduce specific religions then everything gets very quickly complicated as they will never agree except in the most general sense.

I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that we were talking about monotheistic ideas rather than Polytheistic.

I suppose the main attribute is existence and we must consider present or absent!

KoloOyinbo:
You mean the attributes I stated? If would have tried to be more precise and specific if I thought you were leaving it up to me! LOL.

I'm sure there must be more (either implicit or explicit) but the Self Aware thing seems fundamental!

If this gets any 'heavier' I will need some kai kai and 'bushmeat' - (the two legged kind)! LOL

KoloOyinbo:
Don't see how you justify the first sentence.

Many people believe an impersonal force created the universe and call that GOD. This requires FAITH also.

We have not even defined or agreed what is a personal or impersonal God. I suspect were we to attempt to do so it would revolve around self awareness. Although IF GOD exists and created everything then it is somewhat arrogant for us to think we can define him. Be aware of some of the characteristics would be the best we could hope for.

KoloOyinbo:
Interesting point. First come FAITH that there is a God - of whatever sort!

How can you believe in an impersonal God without FAITH - you still cant prove it's/his existence?

Also to believe that the universe came about by itself, was always there, was created by some force etc All require FAITH! Hence the idea of Atheism requiring FAITH.

Second will be a slightly different FAITH in the type of that God (personal - impersonal etc)

Then you need yet another FAITH if you go down the route of an organised religion with its associated creed, rituals, rules AND (remember this is how many religions like to distinguish themselves) their respective TABOO's.

I have little difficulty with my FAITH in a GOD. Flirted with Agnosticism for a little while. Rejected Atheism outright.

Would consider myself a non denominational Christian but specifically wanted to keep Christianity OR ANY OTHER specific religion out of this more fundamental debate.

ooman:
The argument that there is no proof for the nonexistence of god is as dumb as it is old.
What am I to prove wrong here? Something that hasn't been slightly proved?

That god exists is only a thought, only a statement. Lack of proof for it is automatically proof against it.

KoloOyinbo:
You are right - Chess is a DIVINE game! P.S. Can I meet your girlfriend

Purist:
I see. NL could be addictive, I don't blame him one bit.

malvisguy212:
What is the different between atheism,cult/religion? Some religion are not different from cult, in a real sense an atheists is not to embarrassed to joined a cult. Atheists reject the existence of God in a real sense that the motto of a cult,—being free to do as they please, and the lack of ultimate accountability—there are no eternal consequences for doing as they please.

Within the atheist religion, there have
been a number of atheist cults and
atheistic groups which have had a cultish
following. Some of these atheist cults/
groups still exist today. In 2015, FtBCon
which is an online conference organized
by the Freethought Blogs network,
recognized that nonreligious/secular
cults exist (for example, the atheist cult
of objectivism). http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist_cults

FOLYKAZE:
Read through pls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity

Take note of the subtopic:
-Divinity as entity

-Divinity applied to mortals

-Belief in the divine potential of humankind


And google on sacred kings, devaraja and apotheosis.


Are we conversant with this saying; to err is human but to forgive is divine. . . .

Therefore we are divine beings.

FOLYKAZE:
How is the argument flaw?

God is theos

Men God is apo+theos.

What is the difference in this theos?

Can you tell us pls?

Purist:
I just did a quick scan of the thread. I was under the impression that DeepSight renounced Deism? Could you kindly refer me to the thread or specific post if that's the case? And btw, I thought he left and vowed never to come back to NL?

Purist:
Indeed bro, it's been a while. I actually got bored with this section due to endless rehash of same tired arguments. Just like this one. I'm mostly a spectator in the sports section and front page topics nowadays. I still peep in every now and then though.

I'll go through the thread in my spare time.

Purist:
Bro, what have I missed?

KoloOyinbo:
For Jayriginal

"Well let's move beyond that for now. At least we understand ourselves.

For the next argument, im going to assume (without conceding) that atheists believe that there is no God. How does that make it a religion?

Please make your argument on the other thread."

OK My thoughts (remember I am undecided on this point just interested in debating it) are as follows:

You require as much FAITH to believe that there is no God as to believe that there is. Just an opposite FAITH but neither point of view can be substantiated.

Only the agnostic is free of FAITH as they have the rational point that there is (and can be) no evidence either way - therefore they simply do not know. This is rational and has logic and is actually laudable!

As I said in another post (rather tongue in cheek) "I will pray very hard for God to make me an Agnostic!"

KoloOyinbo:
An agnostic would be a 4! Not sure about the more vocal point - perhaps in Naija. But in European schools we are taught that atheists believe there is no God and Agnostics don't know (or if we are to be cynical - heaven forbid - don't care! )

Glad for your opinion on Dawkins book. You have now convinced me that I would be wasting my money - if I want something to put me to sleep I am quite sure kai kai, ogororo or buruktu would do a much better and enjoyable job!

Have to take issue with his scale. I consider myself a 1 but do not KNOW! But that's a different argument and as its HIS scale he can define it anyway he wishes probably.

KoloOyinbo:
Yes, you have defined what most people call agnosticism. I now see where you are coming from. Irrespective of calling it Atheism or Agnosticism what you describe is supportable/sustainable.

I was trying to say that for those who believe God does not exist - my definition of an Atheist (of which I find many - and indeed they seem to outnumber the agnostics) then their belief seems to be every bit as much a 'religion' or perhaps I should say an act of FAITH as those who believe the contrary.

The worlds foremost (best known?) atheist (at least in his own mind and those of most atheists) is Prof. Richard Dawkin. He has written a best seller - The God Delusion - on the premise that God does not exist. I have not read it yet and am unlikely to. Not that I refuse to read it but that it is low on my list of priorities.

KoloOyinbo:
Well it is certainly NOT what most of the world defines as Atheism (or indeed Agnosticism) which are seen as two separate things. But if we accept your personal definitions then I certainly see where you are coming from.

KoloOyinbo:
AH! A chess player! Well if Chess is my religion then I must consider bridge players to be heretics

(I have seen many excellent Chess players have their game decline when they took up bridge!)

FOLYKAZE:
Atheism is disbelief in God.

While God from dictionary is an influencial person. In apotheosis, emperor and powerful leaders are Gods.

So as an atheist, do you disbelieve in the existence of God base on definition from dico and apotheosis concept?

FOLYKAZE:
Erm. . . .

Atheism is disbelief in God.

God can be defined as influencial person.

Do you as an atheist disbelief in God (defined as influencial personality)?

This is where importance of definition relies

FOLYKAZE:
I dont know.

All the same, religion is 'tie to'.

Devotion is 'tie to'.

Anything you are devoted to is your religion.



I didnt come up with the definition.

Like when you said God does not exist. And God is defined as an influencial person, does this mean influencial personality does not exist?



your wish. You didnt prove it incorrect.




It is a religion.

To which particualr religion, I dont know

KoloOyinbo:
Interesting points but what then do you consider the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism?

Plus I see how you are trying to argue semantics but consider this.

You do not believe a God. But you do not believe in NO God? Then you are a Agnostic? (Just asking, not judging)

Apologies for switching between the threads. If you are happy to do so I will abandon the Kalam stuff. Was only answering Kay17 anyway.

Chiam55:
I think what he is saying is the fact that you do not believe in god makes you an atheist full stop