₦airaland Forum

@ garyarnold

garyarnold:
In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth).

Isrealites were primarily farmers. So that's what gave birth to the emphasis on farm produce. That doesn't mean they never gave money or other things as tithes.

Abraham didn't give farm produce to melchizededk , Jacob tithes was not based on agric but on everything he had. Gold Carmel etc.
 

The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

It's a spiritual principle right from old testament true giving must include sacrifice

2 Samuel 24:24
24 : neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. 

I believe those guided by The Spirit, and are financially able, give far more than a mere tenth of their income.

I have said here often that tithing is the smallest of my giving. There are times I have giving all to God. So I wonder why people quarell over just 10% that is so minute. 

garyarnold:
Show me where Jacob ever tithed.  Jacob put conditions on God and said that IF God met those conditions, he would give a tenth of everything that God gave to him.  No one does the scripture tell us that Jacob ever, in fact, gave a tenth of anything.

The fact that the bible is silent on that does not mean he didn't tithe. Someone said something like that this morning . God even reminded Jacob about the tithe  because he hates foolish vow , so Jacob tithed .

Genesis 31:13
13 I[ am] the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar,[ and] where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred. 

Genesis 35:1 
1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 

Definately he must have fulfilled  the vow in that instruction by going to bethel, the place of his vow.

Abraham gave a tenth of war spoils and kept nothing for himself.  There is NO scripture telling us that Abraham tithed on his regular income or wealth.

Were the spoils of war farm produce? We were made to u derstand they include shoes.

You are drawing assumptions from what is missing from the scriptures.

That's precisely what you seem to be doing. There is no sinlge scripture where God ever spoke against the tithe.

@Garyarnorld
My point is that ,the fact that the priesthood got changed does not nulify everything under the law. What jesus fulfied is done away with , such as , burnt offerings , blood sacrifices, observation of the sabbath. But the tithing has nothing to do with the coming messiah, Jesus didn't fulfilled that part , it is based on spiritual principle.

That's not true , what of sabbath?

Exodus 20:8
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

You said the the changing of the priesthood nullified all the content of the law. If paul could quote certain things under the law , it's simply because they are based on spiritual principles. Same thing goes for tithe, prayers, worship first fruits etc. They are based on spiritual principles

Deuteronomy 5:16
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ephesians 6:2
Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

So you can see here that the idea that the content under the law are nullified in christ is not accurate. If the manuscript of Paul was not found on honoring the father and mother, some people would have capitalised on it. The fact that not so much has been said on tithe in the new thing should not make us jump into conclusion . There is no direct instruction to abolish tithe.

@ garyarnold

garyarnold:
@newmi,
In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law.  In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change.  Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled.  Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing.  When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled.  If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

Tithing is not a law . it is based on spiritual principles.  There are things under the law that are based on spiritual principles , so even after the law is done away with , these things are still valid because they are based on spiritual principles. If you as you stated above feel everything under the law is done away with what do you say about honouring parents.?

Deuteronomy 5:16
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Accordidng to you , this ought to have been done away with. So I ask you is it still valid or not?

The law only amplified it. Tithe is based on relationship with God. The law is irrelevant in this sense because tithe existed before the law. Jaccob , and Abraham tithes even when the law was not in existed. The levitical order is over becasue it only accomodated the jews but now we are are back to the order of mechizedek who was a tithe collector , Jesus is our highpriest . We don't have to make references to levitical order, was melchizededk a Levite? No. So we don't need levite to tithe.

It is according to each man's conscience. A sister finished school and after youth service she decided to work in the house of God for one year. Saying she want her first work in life to be in the house of God. Everyman according to his conscience.either it is first day income or first income or first week income or first month income. It is according to each man's faith.

Image123:
To re-emphasise that John 17v12, He says 'those that Thou gavest me I have kept, and none is lost'. That's absolute proof that they were saved not lost. For the Son of man came to SAVE that which was lost.

They were not born again until Jesus rose from the dead. He was the first to be born again.

Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ,[ who is] the faithful witness,[ and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 

Evang. Olu:
9. CONFESS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FREQUENTLY AND DAILY AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOUR.

Does it mean that one has to be inviting Jesus to be lord of his life everyday?

How many time have you heard him preach on money ? Why don't you watch his message on AIT or NTA tonight or tomorrow and see how wrong you been misled. You can click on the rhapsody thread by Mabel on this forum.
Pastor chris is teaching the world and the body of christ about the life of God in the new creation.

free123:
has He not anointed u to preach salvation to sinners.
In all your posts here jo, i have not seen where u dwelt a bit on salvation. Is it that u know nothing about it or u are following what u were taught by oyaks

Most of my thread of late have been on salvation, but on thus thread I'm not talking about salvation because of the topic we are dealing with.

Excellent analogy nuella. God is to you what you need him to be, the gospel to the captives is freedom , to the poor the gospel is his prosperity,to the sick also the gospel is divine health.

Luke 4:18
18 The Spirit of the Lord[ is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come

The Bible tells us in Luke chapter one of how the man of God, Zechariah, in excitement at the birth of John, his newborn son, prophetically addressed the little boy:

Luke 1:76-79
“And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace”

I remember praying with these words many years ago as the anointing of God was stirred within me. I realized it was my commission to preach the Gospel to the whole world.  John was sent at the first advent of Christ, to preach a message which wasn’t to the whole world, but to Israel. We have been sent ahead of the second coming of Christ to give the knowledge of salvation unto ALL people.

This was what Jesus came to do; He came with a message to the world, and after preaching it to a certain point, He went to heaven and commissioned us to carry on from where He left off

“…he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand” Isaiah53:10

We’re that seed, in whose hands the pleasure of the Lord is prospering as we preach His message to the ends of the earth! We bring glory to Him today as we go as lights to those in darkness and the shadow of death.

You're the light of the world, but you’ll never know how brightly your light could shine until you reach out to those living in darkness. You’ll never know how powerful the gifts of God in your life are until you come to those in the shadow of death. Get committed to preaching the Gospel today; we’ve been commissioned to preach it to the whole world! What a glorious Christmas it would be for you, and for that one to whom you take the light of the Gospel and lead to Christ,

Confession
I’ve been called to go forth and give the knowledge of salvation unto all people by the remission of their sins, through the tender mercy of our God. I am the light of the world, and I give light to those in my world today and guide their feet into the way of peace. Amen.

Further Study
Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

. Nowhere in God’s Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

The tithe is brought to the church now because the church is the representative of God on earth. And because of the anointing.

Numbers 18:8
8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever. 

The reason the priests received the tithes of the people was because of the anointing upon the priest. The same way God has anointed the ministers in the church to recieve the tithes of the people.  

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


Or what do you  think the scripture here is making reference to?

^^^^
Yes it is oversight, the names were already written, God is not writing fresh names, he only deletes names. So this is not a special list affair. Name been written is not assurance of salvation. The mane of judas was written in heaven , but is judas in heaven now? Even though he was on this SPECIAL LIST.

The only books that King James didn't include are simply the uncananised and uninspired books which has no messianic content

^^^^^

Well , maybe you should explain this

 1 Corinthians 7:14
14 . . . else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 

But My thread is being derailed, I don't want this derail to enter second page. Can we discuss it in a new thread ?

SirJohn:
Okay,

If you dont mind Jo, when you say 'consecrated and sanctified' do you mean that these children are born as new creations? if not, what then qualifies the child entry into heaven at death with the adamic nature? if yes, dont you think that will make nonsense of the whole concept of salvation?

Yes if they die at infacy before the age of accountability they are saved

Quote from: Joagbaje on Yesterday at 04:42:00 PM
When children are dedicated to idols, the demons invoked will follow the child ,even though the child may not have understanding until he grows to make full initiation into the idol. Same spiritual law function in God kingdom. God says he will not depart in the way he is raised.


This sounds like a personal opinion to me, otherwise you may have to prove the contrary. you speak of LAW, in which book is this law stated?

Spiritual laws functions in light and darkness. We have angels , they have demons, all truths are parallel . Thesame law governs the two kingdoms. Curses are pronounced by spoken words while demons acts on them , But for us blessings are pronounced by words also while angels acts on them. That's what I mean by spiritual laws.

@Sirjohn

SirJohn:
Jo, I know you're there, kindly reply my questions!!

Sirjohn I wasn't there o. I appear logged in 24/7 because I'm using an iPad. That doesn't mean in on niraland.

This your write up is like Greek o. No spacing at all. Are you one if the blackberry users?

lagerwhenindoubt:
@OP, Pastors should in-fact Scream and Charge the word of God into the ears of Unbelievers. How do you think Prophet John the Baptist did it.

It is a style that works. It strikes conviction and fear into you and woe-betide you if you don't get it into your Spirit

Thank you sir.Authority is discharged and accompanied with bold, loud voice many times in scriptures. The bible stated that Jesus spake with boldness and authority, how would he preach to multitudes by whisper?

John 11:43
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

simplymee:
congrats to you joagbaje on your award. more write ups this year.

I don't even know what it's all about. This award thing, is there a cheque or something? I want to sow some dangerous seed

So what's your point?

^^^^^^
why don't you simply give a direct scripture where God mandated members to rebuke pastor. We have scriptures where God mandated the pastor or prophets rebuke others. We should avoid this rebellious pitfall.
It is not biblical , it is a big error that many are fallen into. If God says "Touch Not" . . That should be enough for any one. God has put in the body of christ pastors ,prophets, apostles. And evangelist , to perfect the saints , not the other way round.

Ephesians 4:11-13
11 He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church. 12 Their purpose is to prepare God's people, to serve, and to build up the body of Christ. 13 This is to continue until all of us are united in our faith and in our knowledge about God's Son, until we become mature, until we measure up to Christ, who is the standard.

GOD HANDLES HIS SERVANT. If any one seems not convoked with the action of a pastor, or church system , they are free to ask question and get clarification . You go to him alone. Some churches have question and answer service like in our ministry , where brethren could ask question on issues they are not clear with. Bible for bible.

Tonye-t:
Jo, one big problem i perceive is that you have a way of misinterpreting things most times. Please kindly show me where i have criticized any church or minister in all my posts in this forum. . .even though criticism is not wrong but then it is never in my person to.My questions to you are

When we judge a minister who seem to be discharging  his ministerial duty, and we say he was wrong when we have little or no knowledge of his call and passion. What do we call that ? It is wrong scripturally to judge Gods ministers .  

Romans 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 

- Will you perceive as criticism my speaking out a vicegttffduyf, that abounds within my christian faith?

The so called vice is in line with scriptures. And if he is wrong, it's his master that judges him. Why don't we let God do his work? Have you thought of the fact that you may have judged them wrongly.

John 7:24
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

- When Jesus rebuked the religious fathers of his time, did it kill the congregations faith in God or rather opened the gullibles eyes to the truth?

Jesus was prophet and apostle , John was prophet. Do we take the honour upon ourselves?  It takes an anointed man to correct or rebuke another anointed man. Especially when he is junior. 

- When John the baptsit converted the wicked men to God, was it by prayers or stern rebuke?

John was called into an office. We have pastor prophet ,evangelist and apostle in the body of christ. We don't rebuke from under , we rebuke from up .Even those who are older in age should not be rebuked by younger.

1 Timothy 5:1 
1 Rebuke not an elder. . . 

- Which is more dangerous? keeping quiet while the wolves in sheep's clothing have a swell time deceiving many of God's children to hell OR speaking out the truth and let the people hate you for doing so? pls answer me!

Who are the wolves ? What's the criterial? I know there are wolves but what is your criteria of judgement. And did God says to rebuke who will assume are wolves.
Can you find any single scripture where brethren in the church are told to rebuke ministers? The only one you find is that the minister rebuke brethren 

- What is wrong in expressing concerns for the welbeing of my belief-system.?

It's a free world, but we don't take laws into our hands we follow scriptures.

- In essence, is there anything even wrong in the act of criticism if the definition of the term is correct from my dictionary - [/color]the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.

We can judge a doctrine but not the man with the doctrine. And we should judge the doctrine by truth. Not by our feeling.

Jo, i have quoted it before, the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, it is about righteousness (right standing with God and Man) and as christians we owe ourselves the responsibility of correcting ourselves when we tend to deviate from the founding truths of our dearly beloved faith.

What I see mostly on NL is busybody and gossip. You don't take true correction to public before unbelievers . The ministers we criticise,do they know about your forum. So what's the correction. Take for example the ones you cited on this thread, supposing they are wrong. You come to an open forum and say whatever , so are they corrected now? Jesus weeps over this evil we do to his body in error. The bible says if a man is in error, you should  go to him . God hates it when church wash it's linen in public.  It's a display of immaturity .

1 Corinthians 6:1-6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? . . . 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers ( Internet  open forum) 

Like it or not, REBUKES & CORRECTIONS are part of the christians duty[/color]

2 Tim 3:
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Timothy functioned in the office of a pastor sir. A pastor rebukes and correct where necessary . The sheep don't rebuke the pastor. And not in a public forum. We end up discouraging potential souls from Gods kingdom. We embarrass the church of christ. It's like husband and wife fighting in front of a 5 year old girl, we are destroying her soul no matter the good intention. Jesus said we should leave the tare and weath to grow, he knows what to do.

[color=#990000]1 Corinthians 4:5
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: [quote][/quote]

First fruit is a faith thing, it is based on individual personal conviction and relationship with God. No one need to force another . It based on a mans covenant relationship with God and individual faith. What is first fruit to A may not be To B. For example what will be the first fruit to a taxi driver? It can be the first passenger of January ist, or the entire income of the first day of the new year,or the income for the first week , yet another may decide to give the income of the entire January as first fruit. It is left for an individual. Connviction. There is no rule. No pastor is forcing people to give their salary, churches have a first fruit service and as people are led they give what is laid in their hearts as firstruit, either it's the first salary of a new job, or the first 100 naira of the first passenger . Every man according to his conviction gives what he seems right as firtst fruit and the pastor gives his own too.

But if you're not a Christian as you claim , why bother about such things, you should rather let's discuss the issue of salavation. Why are you not given your heart to christ. What are you waiting for?.

Sirjohn,
There's no automatic salvation. A child may be consecrated and sanctified by the faith of the parents until the age of accountability. When he has to make his personal commitment to God. The infant baptism is like a prophetic dedication. When children are dedicated to idols, the demons invoked will follow the child ,even though the child may not have understanding until he grows to make full initiation into the idol. Same spiritual law function in God kingdom. God says he will not depart in the way he is raised.

Exodus 22:29
29 Thou shalt not delay[ to offer] the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. 

How come the primitive people that never knew the bible recognise the first born as special.? It is simply bevause there is witness in every person about first fruits. In every nation and culture. The law only help to outline and legalise certain spiritual principles, but that doesn't mean that the principles were limited to the law. They are spiritual principles. That pre existed the law .Such as worship, offerings, tithe,first fruits etc.

Elders will not drink until they have thrown the first drop on the ground as a libation . Because that first one is regarded as sacred. A man gets a job and takes his first salary to parents in the village to recieve prayers why? because there is an inward witness that "the first" is sacred.  I bought something very cheap one day because i couldnt afford the price but the man gave me because i was his first customer . A trader treats the first customer carefully they say "morning market" In some communities they can't eat yam until after the high priest of the community has tasted the first yam in the yam festival. First fruit is written every where all over the world and in our conscience.  

First fruits goes beyond the law of the Jews. The witness is in every persons heart , in every nation that , first thing is speciall.Why? Because it belongs to God. From first born to first salary, to first customer . We treat the first with respect. Even those who We give God first fruits as an indication that he is first and he will always be the first in our lives. He is alpha.every thing first belongs to God.

 Numbers 3:13
13 Because all the firstborn[ are] mine;[ for] on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I[ am] the Lord.
 

Before the law came God called Israel his firstborn, it's a covenant position and relationship.

Exodus 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel[ is] my son,[ even] my firstborn:

@Nuella,

quote author=nuella2 link=topic=584854.msg7548251#msg7548251 date=1295265087]
Lol, hot seat ke? Children are human beings, and its important we know how they spend enternity. Am still waiting for your reply Jo.

The children of Christians are sanctified by the faith of the parents. If they die before the age of accountability, they will go to heaven.

 1 Corinthians 7:14
14 . . . else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 

Zikkyy:
Is this how you respond to inquiries from church members? Is this how they learn? You only teach what you want them to know? No wonder you have zombies for congregation.

We don't have have zombies .  We are only being attacked by zombies
I did say we should take the discussion to another thread. I want to dedicate this thread to those who seek salvation .

Image123:
@enigma
At your point 1,2,3 perhaps this is what you're looking for
Exodus 32v33. And the LORD said unto Moses, WHOSOEVER hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
He said any one who sins gets deleted. Dunno why Joagbaje says that it's only any one who dies in sin. I don't think God is fickle, depends on the perspective you're looking from. It seems it's man who is so fickle. It's just like a metal detector kind of door(if you pick up anything metallic, it detects and will not open. Drop the metal and it immediately opens). I don't think that the door is 'fickle', but the individual picking and dropping metals.
To point 4, of course God knows His mind. The unfortunate thing is our minds, very deceitful. What God's thinking and planning is often times far different from what we're thinking and planning. Jesus says abide, but if a man does not abide, he is cast forth. We are truly created in God's image, not as zombies, but with ability to CHOOSE.

Moses was interceding for the people and asked for his name to be deleted for their sake. God responded that he would not delete the name of a righteous man but only the sinner. This blotting out is not for every wrong doing , but for someone who has lost his place . If names are wiped off , it is damnation forever .

Exodus 32:32-33
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

There is no place where the bible says That God re wrote names back. It's not every sin that required eternal damnation as I said in previous post. Besides only about two or three people were recorded to have been blotted out in the bible.

Gombs:
. . .i cudnt stop laughing at some peoples sense of logic.

ok,do you want to see pastor chris wit a pair of jean trousers and t shirt?even at dat,you would still talk, i cant stop laughing at the term "carnal" which you used. If it is his hair do, people do barb low cut,mohawk,punk,etc. . .Thats their choice,i cant see why pastor chris wouldnt have his own hair do,and still cant have rest from people like you.samson,had dreadlocks,jeremiah was dirty and had shaggy hair and beards,john the baptist had the wrongest form of dress sense,and the list is endless. . .But that didnt stop God's spirit from being with them,did it? . . .Why is it because of pastor chris had a hair do of his,n you complain of carnality? Is it because of he is Nigerian?Have you ever talked of pastor okotie's own? . . .

It is said that it's only the Footballer who has the ball under his legs that opponents come after. Not the one on the bench! Even though they are all footballers.