₦airaland Forum

bloodofthelamb:
SIR, ANYTHING THAT HAS A BEGINING MUST HAVE SOMEONE THAT STARTED IT...SCIENTIST HAS PROVED THAT THE WORLD BEGAN FROM FROM SOMEWHERE...

The Big Bang yes but if i recall correctly the Big bang was caused by a singularity (As the scientists also postulated) So yes the Big Bang accounts for the beginning of the universe but not that of the Singularity which might as well be eternal or not.

YOU AND I CANNOT PROVE THAT GOD AND HIS SON JESUS HAD A BEGINING POINT.

Ooh far from that i have no intension of proving that, it would be an even lesser miracle though than you knowing God so well to know he has a son

hahn:
So you no know my name abi?

You don dey chop money you come forget my name. Chai

Continue

Haaabbaaa Baba how can your boy forget you sir.. sorry sir na slip of fingers while typing, your boy is loyal

felixomor:
And as for you Professor Johnydon,
Its very easy to see how an undesigned cosmos will look like.

Just pick 2 or 3 eggs, some stones and maybe sand and smash them together in the air and watch what happens.
Whatever you see on the ground after the experiment, will look like an undesigned cosmos.

Really? never thought about that before?

but the cosmos now is like a fried egg or a mashed one?

What if this universe was created that way, God took some cosmic egg and smashed them together and this is the result - would you say God designed the universe or not?

felixomor:
God Bless Olaadegbu for that thread.

amen

hopefulLandlord:
puddle analogy

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.
Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

The puddle analogy so well describes us, the universe and how we see ourselves and role in it.

i will be writing on the transcendent and fine-tuning arguments soon.

CoolUsername:
I hope this gets a good number of views. People need to understand how logic almost always makes the God hypothesis unnecessary.

invite more people lets argue or discuss on it. i would like to hear opposing perspectives on this.

hopefulLandlord:
that's good, kindly mention me when you do

done

https://www.nairaland.com/4068154/argument-design-replying-olaadegbus-thread#60664661

cc. hopefulLandlord loj dorox please invite others, i don't really know all the usernames that precisely

I saw OLAADEGU's thread titled the Atheist Logic -https://www.nairaland.com/4059639/atheist-logic

I expected to meet the usual one line argument and then proceeding smileys as replies and no in-depth discussions on the argument raised, that is the usual tradition on OLAADEGBU's threads and one of the reasons i don't comment on them, lacks depth and meaning most often, i do not mean this in an offensive way.

The argument raised on his thread even though over and over has been debated and argued here is still one that can be given a deep consideration on it's merit.

The design argument is valid, the design argument is a cosmological question that we cannot ignore, the design argument is a natural impression. I agree with the logic behind the argument of design, i consider it on the merits of the points and questions it raises.

But it is also natural to think the sun goes around the earth: As a matter of fact this is the most natural thought, the first impression everyone would have on observation from earth.

We experience it everyday, we wake up in the morning, we see the sun rise from the East, makes a journey across the sky and then sink in the western horizon.

Even till today they exist amongst us those who believe that this geocentric impression is the correct one, the earth is stationary, the sun and the moon orbits us.

You wouldn't blame them, their argument have merits, can be attributed to certain observations just as the design argument.

The Geocentric universe was the prevailing cosmological model until the days of Nicolaus Copernicus.

During the trials of Galileo Galilei, an arch bishop rebuked him thus:

" To assert that the sun is the centre of the solar system and not the earth is as erroneous as saying Christ was not born of a virgin"

So just like the design argument, the geocentric argument is an argument of first and natural impression but an apparent impression is not necessarily the true or real impression, it can be naive and wrong just as the geocentric cosmological model.


Galileo Galilei himself was also victim of such first and natural impression, Johannes kepler also was, nobody can be immune to it.

Johanness Kepler after leaving the seminary to pursue a more naturalistic course in science, he was awed by the magnificence of all there is to learn and know. God became more for Kepler, during his days in the seminary he must have repented a thousand times for unseen transgressions against the divine anger.

Afterwards God became more for him than just a transcendent authority seeking incessant retribution, God became the model for universal perfection, a perfection he believed was shown in the Geometry of the cosmos.

He thought the orbits must be perfect circles as this connotes the perfection of God's geometrical abilities. kepler remarked on this.

" Geometry is the model of creation, it co-existed with the mind of God, Geometry provided God with the model for creation, Geometry is God himself."

But when the data based on observation began to enter, the orbits became less circular and more elliptical, Kepler reworked it over and over again but the results consistently was ellipse.

he said at this discovery "The truth of nature which i ignored came by subtle disguise through the backdoor to be accepted, Oh what a foolish bird i have been'

His faith in the geometrical model of creation was shattered; he lost faith in the divine geometer.

I have told this story many times but Kepler - who was in fact regarded by some as the most brilliant mind to have walked this earth second only perhaps to Isaac newton, as a matter of fact Newton's theory of gravity was an expansion of Kepler's theory of planetary orbits [Newton's work was built on the progress of kepler's]

Kepler observed the heavens on many nights, the most many of the times and he noticed moon craters, perfect depressed circles on the surface of the moon, a circle is a geometrical perfection so how could such perfect design come naturally?

Based on what he is used to here on earth, circle can only come from intelligence, such precise perfections cannot be attributed to random accidental and chaotic chance of natural causality.

So his argument was: Such circular structures connoted intelligent beings on the moon and these craters were structures purposely built by this intelligent civilization.

Keplers argument is just as valid as the argument of design, nature lacks what it takes to make such perfect geometry, it can never be as a result of the chaotic chance that rules natural causality.

Or is it?

Turns out Kepler was also wrong, the moon craters were not a result of intelligence as a matter of fact there are as a result of accidental, random, uncharted chaos.

A great rock of intense speed [meteors, asteroids] hitting the surface of the moon would create a local explosion perfectly symmetrical in every direction thus giving rise to perfect circular depressions.

It was not a result of intelligent design as kepler thought, it was starkly the raw opposite.

Such arguments as that of argument of design is logical but comes with a sacrifice, it must first assume a limit to natural causes and effects which kills the depth of it's questions.

A camera is designed, it is a functional complex system, a sand structure on the beach, at least the one OLAADEGBU showed on his thread is designed, it showed intricate patterns to a certain degree therefore as the argument goes, Man or any other organism who are very complex systems must equally be designed – at least this is the idea implied.
That is a logical conclusion I must say, but then the question raised should be;

1. Does complexity mean something must be designed?
2. Does living entities follow the same rules and a camera or sand castle?


These are penitent questions that we must pursue courageously
Like I showed at the beginning of this write up, precise and ordered and even geometrical projections can be without designing touches, can take effect from incessant chaotic causes abound in the cosmos.

So pursuing these questions courageously let us take them one after the other.

DOES COMPLEXITY CONNOTE DESIGN?

This argument just as the first cause argument leads us into a loop, a regression of infinite causalities.
Erosion consistently over a piece of rock will slowly but gradually change the structure of the rock, caves can be formed in this way, it’s a gradual process, progression of tiny effects accumulating into a seeming shouty design.

One may argue since Caves have similarities with houses, at least the basic idea of a house is from a Cave then caves cannot be natural occurring phenomenon’s but rather must have been carved into the rock by something, it must have purposeful designs and not just one of the effects of raging natural causes.
If we consider this argument, every complex system must be designed then what ever answer we derive to answer the question of our own design will lead to an even bigger question.

The natural answer is since everything complex must require design then humans obviously are designed but then again for something to be able to design something as complex as humans such a thing must be equally or even more complex therefore must also have been designed and then it goes into an infinite regression.

The natural answer for this across every culture is of course that God designed us, which leads us to the next question, who designed God and who designed the person that designed God?

If you fill this bracket with the usual answer “God is eternal” as Carl Sagan put it, then we can as well save a step initially and say the universe is eternal and man is an inevitable effect.

If you say God doesn’t require a designer then we might as well save that step and say the universe also does not require one.

And also saying God does not require a designer kills the very implication of this argument because by asserting thus you have shown that something can be complex but not designed (God) therefore complexity does not necessarily mean design so why then do you think natural effects MUST require design?


The second question is;
DOES LIVING ENTITIES FOLLOW SAME LAWS AS INANIMATE ENTITIES?

Let us save ourselves the trouble, the short answer is NO.
The one thing that separates a living cell from non-living things is that living cells have the ability to self arrange and replicate.
Since living cells can self arrange and non-living cells can’t in what way do you judge them under the same set of rules?

Since living cells can self arrange and replicate, it means it does not necessarily require guidance to evolve.
A camera cannot self arrange because it’s constituents lack the ability to therefore must be aided and designed.
I am not saying because living cells can self arrange then they cannot or was not designed, I am only saying Judging living cells with benchmark set by inanimate designs is flawed and inconsistent with truthful approximation.
So before you rush to say: A house is designed, a camera is designed, a sand castle on the beach is designed therefore living beings must have been designed.
Answer to yourself if the fundamental constituents of these subjects are same and follow similar protocols.

Another story I will like to tell is one of my favorites, this is also about Johannes Kepler who I seem to like very much, maybe my life is similar to his or I see the evolution of my worldly views similar to his or simple because we bear same name. [Johannes is latin word for John]
As the story goes, Kepler came home to a plate of Salad his wife made, on the dinning table he asked a question out loud.
If this carrot, lettuce, peas, beans and milk were floating endlessly in eternity, is there a chance that somehow by chance they will all meet and salad is made?
“Yes” his wife replied “But not one as delicious as mine”

So if one agrees that nature is riddled with incessant causes, incessant effects should not be a surprise and we cannot place a lid on what nature can do.

For one to assert the cosmos must be designed in order to function, you must first show what an undersigned cosmos should be like and why?

Like the plate of salad by Keplers wife, we can never truly tell if the accidental salad would be much more delicious.

hopefulLandlord:
interesting, would it be on another thread or here?

Another thread

hopefulLandlord:
FTFY again

BTW, who's talking about Darwin?

I am writing a long rebuttal that addresses this type of argument for the design theory.

Load of bullocks

chubbyswit:
shut up! Travelling and accomodation shouldnt be your problem if you are willing to stake upto 500k just to clear your doubt. How are my even sure you are worth 100k? You guys are just shameless and a disgrace to your community.

And this one just took it personal.. SMH

chubbyswit:
dont be a coward and a fool. You threw a challenge to him and he accepted and you are now backing out? You nairaland atheists are a huge dissapointment.

If Hahn is to stake 500k, the person performing the juju should also stake 500k. Cus even me cannot bet on something I won't gain from if I win.

bennyann:
Dear I'm sorry I don't do that. I can't even do it.

When looking at the pictures, I remembered otem's room pictures he posted. there's nothing wrong with a room looking alike in my eyes.

Don't be serious with it jor. (Na for my eyes o)

Na you serious with am o I juss wan see room

bennyann:
Your room looks like Otematum's when he was giving out vouchers. So similar to the one he showed Nairalanders on one of his threads.

Give me link to the room pictures

Outofsync:
Lol.

Funny watching atheists dribble themselves into "Logical" corners trying to convince themselves juju isn't real.

A damn funny thread.

Funny yes I agree, people applying healthy dose of scepticism to evaluate and scrutinize what should be taken as objective truth or manipulations is quite funny.

What is not funny and should not be taken so would be if people on this thread was just like:

Wow juju is real .

Wow real jazz

Oh my God that's mysterious.

Without questions or doubt.

That shouldn't be funny cus it bemoans the epiletic state of our thinking style, many things wrong on so many levels.

krattoss:
Mind u I sleep upstairs..and my dad sleeps right down beneath me...so no way he could trigered a noise as my dad is one watchman am yet to decipher..

The whole purpose of such maneuver rests in their secrecy of their mission, so if it would be done it would require maximum silence.

krattoss:
Doors of my room

From outside and inside..

OK quite solid door but he couldn't enter your room right? Because from the door and burglary proof and you inside there was no way.

krattoss:
From the backyard which is also impossible to climb cos i locked that door u see there..

Not Impossible to climb but locked door is enough for me you see.

krattoss:
My huz from front view...no way he could have climbed from ladder...that was what I first thinked as my dad's room is right down there any movement will be noticed by him

You shouldn't rule out that possibility because looking at that picture climbing that is quite easy, at least I know I can

krattoss:
yes he is my good friend (with a bad boy character )
He has been to my house before
but the last he was in my huz is almost going to like 5-6 months..

Having been there once is enough information

My house is an upstair..an coming with pics wait a minute

Please do cus I am still trying to paint a better picture

krattoss:
u know these things are operated in secrecy.....maybe he is hiding one or two...I don't know..

Andif he is capable of doing that before ur very eyes...I don't think u can manage the costs..

he made very solid points, the trick is within the secrets

krattoss:
I will be a fool of it didn't raise concerns to me...but I can't really ask him to repeat the act while removing my curtains cos this time around I can't place such huge amount again.....

He is your friend, No?

If yes, have he been to your house before?

What are the structural calibrations of the said apartment, is a flat, self con or duplex?

after these questions we can progress.

But deep inside me..I don't really know how he managed to enter and its still a mystery to me ...

You don't have to, if you do it will become less magical. if you watch magic tricks on youtube, they seem to teleport from one place to another in an instance.

But yeah..greater part of me belives he teleported to my apartment

well, that is the idea

chemystery:
I read your points. There is one book amongst my magic books that covered the history of magic. Here is an excerpt which is related to what you posted earlier:

The early magicians were known as the Magi or Wise Men of the East. These men lived in Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, and India. It seems that these men had gained more education than the masses of the people and consequently were admired for their knowledge. They were eager
�for even more esteem from their inferiors and so developed the Art of mystifying the people and making it seem that they had supernatural powers. They gained great influence as a result of their Mystic Art.� ...This art would become a secret amongst magicians and it's secret only revealed within their linages.

they are called Dibia in Igbo land

As for what the OP posted, it might be true, but that part I bolded is a big fat lie. What did he expect when he took his own razor to try on himself first before giving the self acclaimed juju man?

If I claim I can stab myself without getting hurt, will you get a knife and test it on yourself before giving it to me?

You are not the magician. You know the consequence. So give the 4king razor to the magician!

LOL i get the point

krattoss:
exactly reason is that he doesn't go through curtains...

LMAO AND THAT DOESN'T RAISE CONCERNS TO YOU?

krattoss:
wished I can explain better...but let me try..

After that one must have gone through..he told me that I will lock my door j..all the doors,and WindowsI he would sleep in my room..and our huz been an upstair..believe u me i locked every inch of our doors and Windows...

Now I was in my room later that night with my phone waiting for him to appear in my room as he claimed..

As the said hour approached...lo and behold..a knock on my door..as I opened,to my awe it was that my nigga. .I asked him why didn't he come to my room straight. .he said he doesn't pass through curtains...

I WAS DAMM FLABAGASTED.. though he didn't collect the money from me

He didn't appear in your room as you expected but instead knocked on the door?

krattoss:
hey Hahn. ..still interested??

I am interested though

hahn:
Then why did he come up with such a dumb threat?

LOL. I don't know, still doesn't make him new

krattoss:
hey Johnny. .I missed u a lot...not some dumbass riffraffs that can't argue without insults and jibes...

Now knowledge they say comes hourly and simultaneously. .

As u have enlightened me on the herbs issh..I have googled and learnt New thing. ..that is knowledge for me and its not a waste.....

Now the teleporting stuff. .how do u explain that

Now on another one he told me to lock my room,doors of our house and every possible entrance that he will sleep in my room tonight..I been no wan gree but I said to myself...how much e be kwanu..I have started loosing let me loose..fvck it..

I agreed with 5k stake each...I was awake that night cos he told me time he was gonna come through..
U know what as i was busy keeping watch that night..behold a knock on my door..as I opened..it was that my guy...
I laughed and shrugged it off claiming its nothing but deep inside me i was confused..but later later he no collect the 5pin from me via him man I be..

Care to make the story more understandable to me?

obinna58:
The story was mix with lies
It's all about trick, strong tool like knife not required and the cutting must go to some particular parts of the body

If you guys are ready for the Challenge, state out specific rules and agreements to make sure it doesn't turn out bloody

Tricks also requires learning

the trick was controlled true, it was a mere trick that krattoss was naive about it's workings thus the awe. But whether the story was a lie is a totally different thing

hahn:
I live in Ogun state

johnnydon22, is this place close to you?

Thats Imo state, i stay in Enugu. I don't mind coming if they pay for my transport and item 7 while i am there. but i think the trick was quite simple Krattoss just fell into the awe of a new information.

He washed himself in a certain Herb: That was the trick.

There are in fact such chemical compounds that can form a second coating on a surface making it temporary impenetrable to some little extent.

What they call Juju tricks are just ancient scientific knowledge that the DIbias(Native Doctors) hide from the public to keep their enterprise alive.

That is the difference between the science of today and that of the olden days.

The science of today is not treated as sacred knowledge only to be known by a select few but rather as a necessary knowledge that everyone should know.

But in the ancient times scientific knowledge was treated as a sacred knowledge known only by the priestly class passed on to their successors with the uttermost discretion then bathed in superstition and uncalled awe to the naive mind.

If a magician reveals the secrets behind his tricks, it loses it's awe and becomes less magical