₦airaland Forum

iblawi:
I don't know why you guys are bringing up this argument again after several attempt of claiming technology that isn't yours.

Rooivalk and orxy are based on puma helicopter which you also agreed to. The engine and other critical components are also not your.

Same with several other technologies. Most of the components are also from Europe.

Hope we won't have this same argument again next year again.

They would be back making the same unfounded claims in a couple months time.

jl115:
It's from Denels own website you muppet

"Rooivalk Attack Helicopter (AH-2A) is a Denel product. Denel Aeronautics a subsidiary of the Denel is the Design Authority and Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM)."

And then there is the fact that the Rooivalk is very heavily dependent on French technology.

You're lying to yourself.

kabe1:
This has to be the most ignorant comment I've read this year.

The Rooivalk is based on and relies heavily on components and technical expertise from the EU. Especially France.

Why shouldn't Nigerians demand that we build our own?

The benefits in skills, economics and technical expertise are endless.

So why shouldn't we demand it?

jl115:
Denel is the OEM of the Rooivalk....hell the first Rooivalk protype was built under heavy sanctions from the west same with the Oryx..... You simply have a problem with anything South African hence you go above and beyond to spew nonsense that you obviously know nothing about.

You're telling yourself lies. Shocking thing is you believe those lies.

But – and this is a very important point – South Africa could not design and build a complete helicopter from scratch. The design, development and manufacture of the necessary powerplant and dynamics system (rotor head, main and tail rotors, and main and tail gearboxes) were beyond this country’s capabilities. Acquiring such capabilities would have been extremely time consuming and incredibly expensive, rendering the project totally impractical. So the new machine had to be based on an existing design, as far as its power plants and dynamics were concerned.

At the time, the SAAF operated two main helicopter types – the Aerospatiale (formerly Sud Aviation, now Eurocopter) Alouette III and the Aerospatiale Puma. The Alouette III could not possibly form the basis of a credible attack helicopter – it was not just that it was small, but its powerplant and dynamics system were 1960s technology, clearly outdated, and lacking in power. (An Alouette III powerplant and dynamics system were used as the basis for an engineering and development capability demonstrator for Atlas – now Denel – as a precursor to the Rooivalk programme; designated the Alpha XH-1, it first flew in 1984 and is today preserved at the SAAF Museum at[/b] Air Force Base Swartkops, Pretoria.)

Athough the Puma was larger and more powerful than the Alouette III, it had already been displaced on the French production line by its bigger and more powerful offspring, the Super Puma, which first flew in late 1978. This led to South Africa’s developing and successfully executing a project to produce a new helicopter that was a hybrid of the Puma and the Super Puma – the Denel Oryx. The Oryx has a fuselage that is longer than that of the Puma but shorter than that of the Super Puma, and was fitted with the powerplants, dynamics systems, and tail boom of the Super Puma (later, military versions of the Super Puma were redesignated Cougar).

The result was and is a helicopter with a greater payload and range capability than the Puma and a greater power-to-weight ratio than the Super Puma/Cougar. In consequence, the Oryx is an ideal transport helicopter for the hot temperatures and high altitudes frequently found in Southern Africa.

The Oryx was developed in parallel with the Rooivalk prototypes. Being simpler and cheaper than the Rooivalk, the Oryx programme was completed much more rapidly, the helicopter being unveiled in 1991, and has been the SAAF’s transport helicopter ever since. Thus it was proposed that the Super Puma powerplants and dynamics systems, being made in South Africa for the Oryx programme, be used as the basis for the planned attack helicopter.

At least one engineer is known to have proposed that the attack helicopter be based on the engines and dynamics system of the Aerospatiale Dauphin, an intermediate- (light/medium) size helicopter with good manoeuvreability and power, which would have resulted in a smaller, more rapidly developed, and more economical (to develop, buy and operate) system.

[b]As the French were allowing South Africa to use the powerplants and dynamics of the Super Puma, they would surely have agreed to the South Africans using the same elements from the Dauphin. However, the SAAF felt that using the same engines and dynamics as the Oryx would simplify logistics and reduce maintenance costs, so the decision was made to use the Super Puma system


This is a key reason in Denel’s failure to export the aircraft. No one will buy a warplane whose avionics system is based on 20-year-old computers.

Then there is the cost of the aircraft – the direct result of both attempting to make it a world beater and depriving it of eco-nomies of scale by cutting the order to only 12. “The unit cost of the Rooivalk is about $40- million,” says Heitman. This makes it as expensive as the Boeing Apache and the Eurocopter Tiger, the latest models of which have state-of-the-art avionics, and much more expensive than the smaller AgustaWestland Mangusta/Mongoose, and the Russian Mi-24/35 family.

Export possibilities have been further reduced by foreign worries about the long-term viability of Denel: will the company still be around in 20 years to continue to support the Rooivalk, if they should buy it? And then there is the fact that the Rooivalk is very heavily dependent on French technology, now the property of Eurocopter, yet Denel tried to export the Rooivalk not only without Eurocopter’s prior agreement and support, but actually in open competition (for example, in Australia) with Eurocopter’s own Tiger.


https://m.engineeringnews.co.za/article/what-went-wrong-with-the-rooivalk-2007-06-08-1

dragon2:
The Rooivalk is an example of Africa's inability to work with each other. That bird should be all over the continent as it's main attack helio. No way it would be in that state if it was the EU.
In the EU the major states would manufacture the main parts,some states, components,while others, assembly process. Our leaders are constantly measuring each other up rather than co- operating. Just pathetic. Better Denel became an African defence company that got billions in Funding and the smartest brains on the continent than let all those smart eggs disappear out of the continent. Who knows Spacex,falcon 9/ STARSHIP could have been an African project.

South-Africa never had the capacity to build on the 12 units of Rooivalk that were manufactured.

They don't have the technical expertise, finance or political leverage to make the Rooivalk work.

The Rooivalk would be subject to heavy economic sanctions from it's original equipment manufacturers in Europe and America.

As hard as it might sound, the aircraft was doomed for failure, it was never a leadership problem.

SuperSixSeven:
Naive Nairalanders would never support any SA project instead they would demand the "government" to build "our own" combat helicopter.

This has to be the most ignorant comment I've read this year.

The Rooivalk is based on and relies heavily on components and technical expertise from the EU. Especially France.

Why shouldn't Nigerians demand that we build our own?

The benefits in skills, economics and technical expertise are endless.

So why shouldn't we demand it?

jl115:
11 actually with SAAF and 1 with Denel test and development centre..

Anyway this wasn't about export orders but rather about raw performance.... And given your response I would conclude that you were unable to prove any of my assertions wrong

1 crashed

Denel is dead...... No point kicking a dead horse.

jl115:
name me an AH with a higher service ceiling, higher in ground effect hover ceiling, higher out of ground effect hover ceiling, better operating temperatures, higher G force rating, higher combat range, higher take off altitude, higher endurance time, not to mention it also ranks in the top 3 in terms of max speed, climb rate, ferry range, sideway speed...... Must I go on?

I see you're still flying with your delusions of grandeur. Good luck with that.

Highest this and highest that, yet only 10 are in active service, and all with South-Africa.

SYRIA: 2 Turkish soldiers killed after after their vehicle hit an IED near Ma'arrat Misrin in Idlib, Syria.

jl115:
well Denel is fvcked so at this stage Rooivalk export is a pipe dream

Which is unfortunate because in terms of raw performance the Rooivalk demolishes all of its competition

"Still flying with this delusion?".

Pathetic.

Nigerian made Ara MRAPs exported to Chad

Kenyan army Chinese made CS/VP14 MRAPs in the DRC

New order for an OCEA survey vessel for Nigeria


12th october 2021



After the delivery in 8 years of 18 ships to the Nigerian Navy, including the NNS LANA, a 60-meter hydrographic research vessel type OSV 190 SC-WB, two 35-meter patrol boats type FPB 110 MKII and two interceptors of 17 m type C-FALCON in 2020, OCEA won an international tender for the supply of a 35-meter hydrographic research vessel type OCEA OSV 115 SC-WB.



Vessel’s missions



OCEA’s OSV 115 SC-WB type vessel is a hydrographic and oceanographic research vessel from the auxiliary vessels range. Intervening in support of the OSV 190 NNS LANA, it will allow the Nigerian Navy to complete the knowledge of its maritime territory.

shadowprimezero:
Breaking!!!!!

https://humanglemedia.com/zamfara-state-to-receive-fighter-drones-from-turkish-company/

Ideally, I would have preferred 3 x Ada class corvettes though.

Although I know the UCAVs are a more practical option.

shadowprimezero:
We're all winners on this one!!!!

I still have my reservations on Turkish military equipment, however if confirmed on the 20th, it would be good news for the air force.

shadowprimezero:
Breaking!!!!!

https://humanglemedia.com/zamfara-state-to-receive-fighter-drones-from-turkish-company/

So, you had the last laugh on this argument?

Nigerian Navy NNS Karaduwa

shadowprimezero:
New and improved design of the Nigerian Army Engineering made Ezegwu MRAP. The model getting more refined with each iteration.

This looks very beautiful!!!

Fantastic effort.

I also love the colour they chose.

jl115:
agg look at Kabe1 thinking he actually knows what's going on in Moz

Know your role and stay in your lane

I have no patience for your silly conspiracy theories and crying.

The evidence shows Rwanda is doing a very fantastic job in Mozambique.

Lurker4Long:
Still talking out of your arse, I see.
Mate, stick to your fan girl stuff and post photos, leave the stuff that requires thinking to the grown-ups.

Go cry elsewhere, your constant whining in this thread is sad, irritating and exhausting.

Lurker4Long:
What rubbish! Have you seen the latest reports out of Cabo Delgado? Who killed the Al Sunnah leader Rajab Awadhi Ndanjile?
Who's been raiding Al Sunnah's camps?

You really should refrain from talking out of your arse on the internet.

Keep whining and crying like a clown.

Rwanda is doing very good work in Mozambique.

Lurker4Long:

[s]We SA taxpayers are paying almost a billion for the SANDF deployment. Rightly, seeing we are the 5rd largest investor in Cabo Delgado, after France, USA, China and Italy.

Total paying Rwanda was an arrangement made by Macron and Kagame, for whatever reason.
The game being played by France, Rwanda and Mozambique will end in tears.[/s]

Ridiculous comment, laced with envy.

Your envy would be different if it was SAMIM getting all the good press, I bet.

Lurker4Long:
I guess the money from Total for the Mozambique deployment has come in.

When is South-Africa and SAMIM getting their own credit alert from Total?

Rwanda to purchase at least 12 Turkish made Bayraktar TB2 attack drones and their first missions could be in the ongoing fight against terrorists and insurgents in Mozambique's Cabo Delgado province.

dragon2:
Some commentator's are going overboard over the IFV thing. Someone asked which do you prefer between the military acquiring an IFV or MRAP. Nobody said an IFV is a game changer. I said an IFV is more suitable because it gives us fire superiority over the enemy in a battle. Do we have to lose soldiers because we know how to use HMG's? Why don't the US GI take on the Taliban head on at all times since they, (Taliban) use ak47s. Why call in warthogs with 30mm gathling guns? It's because the lives of their troops is precious to them. I give no apologies, we don't have to engage bokoharam on equal terms. Drop the MRAPs and pile on the IFV's. We can use a few MRAPs forward of IFVs in a patrol.
Again the comparison is between MRAPs and IFVs.

Addressing this MRAP vs IFV question.

The mistake made is comparing one against the other, or asking commentators to choose 1 from the two.

It's similar to asking us to choose between the MI-17 & MI-35.

First, what is an MRAP?

An MRAP is an armoured military vehicle designed to provide protection against mines, IEDs and any road side bomb.

The MRAP was created in Southern Africa, either South-Africa or Zimbabwe. During the vehicles early days, it was simply known as an APC.

Popularity of the word MRAP, the Americans coined the word MRAP, hence the now widespread usage. The earlier American MRAPs were imported South African APCs.

The main difference between the MRAP and the regular APC is a higher ground clearance and a V-shaped hull.


An IFV or Infantry Fighting Vehicle

An IFV is any military vehicle that transports troops to the front line and supports, provides fire support for those troops.

So an IFV could be a Toyota pick-up truck with a GPMG gunner or an armoured 8x8 armed with calibers from 30mm and above ATGMs and reconnaissance equipment.

As long as that military vehicle transports troops to the frontlines, and provides fire support, it is an IFV.


However for the purpose of this discussion, we know which particular IFV our good friend is referring to.


The first thing I think military planners in Nigeria consider is cost.

So while an IFV is armed with a 30mm, including ATGMs and all the sweet stuffs, a single unit without ammo, training etc could cost up to 2 million USD.


While the MRAP or APC is essentially made in Nigeria, costing around 500k USD or lesser per vehicle.

So because of funding issues, IED problem, military planners are left with a tough decision to invest in 4 or 5 MRAPs, 1 IFV , Air Support for the air force.

This is what I believe is the situation we have seen in the past 4 years.

So from the scenario above which would you choose from?

Odunayaw:
Whyem15: Mrap or IFV

Forumers: historically speaking, mathematically speaking, systematically speaking


My people

Let's discuss the real issue.

The Rafale is definitely the sexist fighter jet in existence.

Look at this magnificent beast!!

youghs:
This is you just overhyping the worth of an IFV. IFV is not any magic weapon or a game changer, it's just an addition or rather an alternative. You can destroy a gun truck with 12.7mm RCWS(fire at the engine, take out the gunner, the driver and other occupants in the vehicle), the only difference is that the 30mm will burn them alive at the first or second burst.

In as much as I'm also a fan of an IFV and I will like the army to get some, It isn't going to change anything or win any war. We need to stop overhyping equipments just because we don't possess them.

I 100% agree with this.

Military commentators on twitter are guilty of and largely responsible for this.

Tobiloba24072:
I support him, and I feel you're wrong..... the stabilised platform and accuracy and safety almost akin to that of a MBT makes ifv really needed, it offers a lot of advantage almost cheating, when used against bht, if they are used in sufficient numbers, imagine placing accurate 30mm shots, from 3km , where by bht can't even see from that distance....left to me, I would prefer more ifv, that mbt, in the present fighting we have in the country.

IFVs and MBTs are all important. However I have noticed that most people on twitter who tweet in support of the Nigerian military, the likes of Deji and his crew have a habit of overhyping the military equipment.

The problem of the military is not the equipment, we have never had an equipment problem. The problems we see time and again is the man.

The training of the average Nigerian soldier needs to improve. The machine is nothing without the man.

We need to give our officers and men the right training before we talk of equipment. We buy hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment every year.

We don't have an equipment problem.

Take one example, I don't know if a majority of our troops are aware an MRAP is not an invincible vehicle. It is not IED proof, it is designed to get blown up while saving the life of the soldiers.

If we don't train our troops well, all the equipment we have bought would have been all for nothing.


It's the same way many people especially on twitter kept on calling the Super Tucano a game changer.

Fynline:
Looks like a NATO patch

It's a NATO patch, but the pilot is flying an MI-35 helicopter.

You can see in his glasses the reflection of an MI-35 landing gear, and significantly the S-8 Russian rocket launcher.

jl115:
Im pretty sure it's payment just for the 3 JF-17 NAF already bought..... There would have been an announcement either from NAF and definitely from the manufacturer if it is indeed a purchase for additional JF17

Plausible argument.

jl115:
Looking at the document its just a payment for the 3 JF-17 NAF already bought not 3 additional jf17s

I doubt it. Total payment for the 3 x units is 185 million USD.

I can't remember where I saw payment has been completed, but I would search for it and post.