Is there a live session here tonight?

9jacrip:

I very much agree with your points here - history is about the activities of men(women). I actually co-signed him because I wish believers of 'imported' religions would question the 'history' embedded in their religion the way you and others have brain-stormed to piece Yoruba history together.

I'm enjoying every bit, more grease to your elbow

Thanks

I was surprised you decided to stay on the sidelines.

Obalufon:
likewise, i've always been taught about immaculate birthday and ascending to heaven ,walking on water ,going to heaven with chariot of fire , '."God having a beloved son" Son of God with pictures everywhere depicting him as a blue eyes blonde hair man that ones ascend to heaven to his father and will soon descend from heaven to kill the wicked and rule over the world with his band of white skinned Angels with wings battling odd among them black skin Satan.. Have you ever question the authenticity of this myth or doctoring simple minded Negroids?. if you can be so rational about your native religion believe why not do the same to your master religion

Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

If Northern governors are sending sons to Jordan to train as pilots, then other leaders are too busy sharing funds in Abuja to notice let alone prepare.

macof:

That's wat am trying to say here

This is about Yoruba history not Igbo, I don't see why Igbo is being dragged to this

Who dragged Igbo into this? How was Igbo dragged into this?

By mentioning that Yoruba, Igbo, Edo, Ijo belong to the same language family is what you are referring to as Igbo being dragged into this!!!!

I understand that in your version of Yoruba history, apes migrated to Yorubaland, evolved into Yoruba men, and started speaking Yoruba language. But permit others who do not believe in such tales to explore other options.

No matter how difficult certain events are, distaste/irritation cannot change history.

macof:

I see no relationship with Igbo and Yoruba languages ur linguistic historians are flawed because I have personally observed the languages and words similarities doesn't put languages in the same lingual tree.

We have no binding history and don't have same ancestors. Igbos history doesn't link with Ife and they don't have a definite start, Yorubas do and that's Ile Ife.

I never claimed Ife to be the origin of humanity, I speak for myself and Ife is my origin and the origin of Yoruba


ijo claim to have welcomed Adimula from Ife and he had a family there whose descendants left to found Ilaje



The final migration to ijebuland was led by ogboroganda aka Obanta, he got to ijebuland and met people there, his people only mixed with them.

Languages are compared with one another using a process called comparative linguistics so as to establish historical relatedness. It's not for you to state that you have studied Igbo and Yoruba and concluded that there is no relationship. What process did you use for this analysis?

As for your comments about Igbo and Yoruba not being connected in any way, I will leave you to that position. God created Yoruba in isolation; Yoruba is not related to any other groups.

MetaPhysical:

Calm down my brother, please calm down.

I dont know where Yoruba is from but I know where they are not from. They are not from the land they currently occupy. Im on a quest to find their origin. So far, I have gone into many books, English books, Yoruba books, Arabic books, Hausa books, Jewish books, Egyptian books..

Yoruba books are more confusing than the rest and I will tell you why.

Yorubas, unlike foreigners writing and theorizing the history, have to also live the history. Everything so far written by respectable Yoruba scholars on the history is done so from the perspective of Western ideology, not Yoruba philosophy. In order words, there is a gap between the thoughts and the spirit..we are thinking in foreign language and expressing in foreign language but our nature, emotion, spirit and impulses are Yoruba, not English.

Do me a favour Katsumoto, go and read books on Yoruba written in French and compare with that written in English and you come up with different angle of understanding. Read the one written in Portuguese and compare with that written in English or French and you gain a different angle. Why all these inconsistencies about one history and one people?

Of all the foreign people to come into the hinterlands of Yoruba, Katunga and Ile Ife and Oyo, Arabs were the pioneers. Ibn Khaldun and Batutta as well Baba Ahmed had chronicled their contact with Quorra and Katunga long before Livingstone and the Landers or Mungo Park. The Portuegese came after the Arabs and before the English but they did not go into the interior, they stayed on the coastal waters and this is all they knew of Yoruba.

The Arabs came over the desert and did not go to the coast.

So the Arabs had no knowledge of an existing Yorubaland past Oyo territory and this is why in teir chronicles Oyo is Yoruba, and no where else. They had no knowledge of such.

The Portuguese wrote many things about the coastal people and the riverines but left much untold about Katunga and its glory because they did not know the coastal people had a kingdom farther inland and if they knew it wasnt connected with their trade which prinarily was water dependent.

The first foreigners to make contact with all peoples of Yorubaland were the colonists and was possible only after the Kiriji war. They had made some tractable gains in Lagos, Badagry, Abeokuta and so on and established resettlements and missionary.

By the time the colonists entered into Yoruba proper they discovered that the Muhammedan faith was widespread and even the kings and court were practicing the Sudan traditions.

Their mission was to turn the orientation away from Sudan and into Christianity.

Abeokuta was the seat of Yoruba Chriatianity and missionary work and Crowther was from there and living there..it would be imperative that the Egba dialect should have been adopted as the language and standard of Yoruba Bible and alphabets. Why did they use Oyo as standard?

The land was conquered but the soul of the people has not been conquered. You conquer the people when you steer their culture away from its base beliefs and in the case of Yoruba it had to be done politically because the nation itself is structured politically. The political seat of power is Oyo..and this factored into why they used the Oyo dialect as standard.

They did the same thing in Hausaland. Hausas are structured politically but less sophisticated than Yorubas..so they use the Emirs for indirect rule and taxation and introduced jangali.

Oyo dialect did not have full orthography in English language sounds and meanings and made writing and interpretation impractical. How did they resolve that?

The transliteration was done creating sound match in various European languages where a match exist..even though the meaning was different and not a match and this is how they created a alphabet list for us.

In addition to the fact that our alphabet list is latinized using sounds from different language standards, our alphabet list is missing letters also. This is a great handicap to studying Yoruba and understanding its true history.

This is why I adopt Yoruba sound for my activism here rather than relying on meaning.

..but this alphabet is all we have and so we should make the best of it.

Now, am I completely convinced Yoruba is from AfroAsia? No!

Am I convinced completely that Yoruba is NOT from its current abode in Nigeria? You bet I am!

So where is Yoruba from?

I steer away from Western biases and the Arab biases and go into Yoruba arts, worship, culture, kingship, priesthood, songs, sounds, heirlooms, artifacts, orikis, myths, gods...these are unbiased and truthful spirit of Yoruba itself and thats who I have adopted as my teacher. I want Yoruba to teach me where it is from..and it has done a great job of doing that so far. There are still some loose knots to tie and questions. If I can get an answer to those questions, trust me I will be selling the AfroAsia belief wholeheartedly.

Brother,

I apologize for the tone of my post. It appears I mis-understood your complete intentions.

We are in agreement that the Yoruba migrated to the current areas. The next area of my study will be the migration of people into Yorubaland. I am keen to explore Tony Spike's hypothesis about Yoruba/Kemet connections.

I am yet to come in touch with text written about the Yoruba in French but I have read Portuguese and Spanish text. Most of these relate to Yoruba philosophy and spirituality.

I agree about Yoruba not being conquered by any culture or religion. I have often argued that Yoruba spirituality and philosophy is so fluid and powerful that it assimilates other cultures and religions. Hence why a Yoruba can be Muslim and traditionalist or a Christian and traditionalist at the same time. And why a Yoruba family can have Muslims, Christians, and pagans.

Crowther was originally from Iseyin. He wasn't Egba.

macof:

I only posted wat I understood from ur previous post. You try to link ijo, Edo and Ife even when the people have no stories binding before the existence of Oduduwa

the ijo claim Oduduwa's son lived among them and led them at a time.

The ilaje people are mixed wit Yoruba and ijo

Language similarities doesn't proof they were ones one people.

You seem to forget that ijebuland is mixed wit different people, some that migrated from waddai, some that migrated from Ife and others that aren't accounted for.

Even the final migration into Ijebuland from waddai rested in Ife and were exposed to Ife culture

[b]'A language family is a group of languages related by descent from a common ancestor, called the proto-language of that family. [/b]The term comes from the Tree model of language origination in historical linguistics, which makes use of a metaphor comparing languages to people in a biological family tree or in a subsequent modification to species in a phylogenetic tree of evolutionary taxonomy. All the apparently biological terms are used only in the metaphoric sense. No real biology is included in any way in the metaphor. ...... Membership of languages in the same language family is established by comparative linguistics. Daughter languages are said to have a genetic or genealogical relationship; the former term is more current in modern times, but the latter is equally as traditional.'

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Language_family.html

There is a reason why most sub-saharan languages belong to the Niger-Congo language family. There is a reason why no Sub-saharan language is a part of the Indo-European language family. It is not coincidence. You need to re-appraise this Yoruba supremacist view of life starting at Ife and apes suddenly speaking Yoruba. In this day and age, it is very narrow. Similarities in sub-saharan languages is as a result of sub-saharan people all migrating Southwards from the Sudan-Nile corridor.

Yoruba, Edo, Ijo, Igbo all have the same ancestors.

Which Ijo people claim that Oduduwa's son lived among them? The most recent wave of migration has people migrating from Ife to other parts of the SW. During this final wave of migration, the people spoke the same language albeit different dialects. They spoke Yoruba; we aren't aware of any Niger-Congo language becoming extinct with Yoruba migration to the coast.

Which final migration from Waddai to Ijebu are you referring to?

MetaPhysical: Katsumoto,

What was the name of the land Oduduwa met when he arrived in what today we call Ile Ife?

What language did the people speak that he met on ground?

What were their belief and faith system?

MetaPhysical:

The only person who theorized the idea of Oduduwa being Sargon's son was Lange. No Arabian record exist of Oduduwa being the son of Sargon. No Northern or Mali record exist for this. However, there Assyrian records that mention Duwduw or Audud.

Stop asking me questions. I have no intention of playing your game.

You either provide your hypothesis and supporting proof or ignore my posts.

I have asked you repeatedly - WHERE ARE THE YORUBA FROM?

So far, you have argued that the Yoruba share something with Middle Eastern Islam. What is the connection? You have talked about similarities but nothing concrete.

Lange attempted to intellectualize the thoughts of Islamic scholars who believed the Yoruba, Hausa, etc all migrated from the middle east.

macof:

Mr man I am not Ife, I am Ekiti and my people trace their origin to Ile-Ife.

Ife is the beginning of wat we know as Yoruba today.

Yoruba, Edo, Ijo, Igbo are not are were probably never one because only Yoruba people recognize the Ife origin.

Igbo's aren't sure where their first home was

And ijo claim to be the origin of Igodomigodo

So I see nothing more than neighborhood relationship between Ife, Igodomigodo(former Edo) and ijo. I have never been interested in Igbo history but I don't see any direct connecting with Ife

Don't introduce notions into my posts in a bid to weaken it. I didn't state that Igbo, Ijo, or Edo were from Ife. I stated that linguists believe the Yoruba sparated from the Igbo, Ijo, Edo approximately 3,000 years ago. You can hold on to your Yoruba supremacist views; that's your prerogative but in the face of known migratory patterns, it is false. Every language has an origin and it doesn't exist in isolation. All languages belong to a language tree and these language trees provide clues about migratory patterns of all groups.

Migration from Ife doesn't mean there weren't other Yoruba groups who never set foot in Ife. Perhaps you guys want to start arguing that the Ijebu are not Yoruba.Ife is the beginning of Yoruba civilization, spirituality, societal structures and kingdom building but Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. You can take that to the bank.

macof:
The female Oduduwa which Alaketu talks about must be one of Oduduwa's daughters whose son is The first Alaketu.
In Yoruba Spirituality , Oduduwa has been regarded as the personification of the Earth usually portrayed as wife of Obatala, like in Greak spirituality Gaia is wife of Uranus, in canaanite spirituality, asherah is wife of El.

but there's every reason to believe the human Oduduwa was male, The issue now is where he was from. I still dont believe that Bini story
does it even matter where Oduduwa came from? fact is oba of bini, alaafin of Oyo and other major king of Yorubaland are his direct descendants

Oduduwa in creation is not Oduduwa the human. Oduduwa in creation is a personification of an unseen force, the dark energy that formed matter.
Ife mythology is not Yoruba mythology In wat way? Ife is the beginning of Yoruba, so why put a difference?




No! We shouldn't ignore wat seems like a myth but understand it and interpret the use of personification

I already provided that the female Oduduwa being referred to in Ketu must be Oduduwa's grand-daughter who sired the first Alaketu or married the first Alaketu. Everything else you stated is in line with my posts. For me, it matters where Oduduwa is from because it establishes, for me, the period of his reign. It is precisely why I don't believe the Middle Eastern origins of Oduduwa as held by some Yoruba historians and Dierk Lange. According to the arabian tales held by Muslims in Northern Nigeria and Mali, Oduduwa is said to be the son of Sargon, but Sargon II ruled about 600 BC. Did Oduduwa live for 1800 years? That story has many holes.

For me, the Bini story is most plausible. For the Bini story to be untrue, Oduduwa himself would have had to have been a fraud. That is, he would have had to have pretended to be the lost Bini prince, when in fact, he wasn't.

And Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. Your holding on to Ife being the beginning of Yoruba is biased because you are from Ife. Ife birthed many other Yoruba kingdoms through Oduduwa's offspring. Yoruba spirituality birthed in Ife. The history of the Niger-Congo language family puts the Yoruba separating from the Igbo, Edo, Ijo about 3000 years ago. This predates Oduduwa.

TerraCotta:

Fair enough. Oranyan and Oranmiyan are both Yoruba; the Benin version is Omonoyan, I believe. The feminine aspect of Oduduwa is not just in Ketu (although it's more prominent there). Your point about some confusion between Odudua and his daughter is possible, although that wouldn't explain why there are references to a female Odudua elsewhere. My understanding is that both male and female versions refer to a mythical personality and not a real person. There's a similar case with the deity Olokun, who is female in Ife but unquestionably male in Benin.

You ask who sired Ajaka and Sango and again, my suggestion to you is that you compare these traditions to other well-known examples in world mythology. To take a leaf from the rampant speculation in this thread, where did Adam and Eve come from in Judeo-Christian mythology? Who was the Scorpion King's father in ancient Egypt, or Odysseus in ancient Greece? Oduduwa was said to be present at the creation of humanity at Ife; competing myths that depict him as a real person aren't necessarily more realistic.


That's a completely fair question, but it's not one that can be answered with any certainty by history. Archaeologists can tell you that there's proof of occupation of Ife by 350 BC (although this early date has been disputed) and the clear emergence of a politically advanced society by about 800-900 AD (when we start seeing the emergence of potsherd pavements and other notable political/religious architecture). The peak of Ife's art seems to be around 1300 AD, when the most famous of the brass and terracotta heads appear to have been made. Those are the most certain dates we can point to right now if we want to discuss established facts. The rest we wil have to treat carefully as oral traditions that we can verify as truth (Ife was a center of political development and manufacturing of prestige goods like beads, brass art etc) or classify as myth (Ife was the center of the world's creation). I don't have anything against the idea that there was a warrior king named Oduduwa, but there are several reasons to doubt his historical existence so I prefer to classify it amongst the myths.


I don't take it for granted that Sango was a historic personality either (breathing fire and so on as he did) so it doesn't surprise me that his wives turned into rivers. Before the nineteenth century, there were few professional historians in our region of the world--there were bards, royal storytellers and the like. Their job wasn't to maintain an accurate written record of the past; they were retained to chronicle the glorious ancestry of noble families. While they would undoubtedly have to base this on historical events, they would naturally be poets and embellishers as well. As we've seen from Sultan Bello's example, even written records were influenced by religious and political concerns so we can't take them at face value.


Not a problem. When you have a moment (and if you haven't already), the first two chapters of Robert Smith's 'Kingdoms of the Yoruba' include summaries of Prof. Obayemi's archeological work and theories on Yoruba antiquity: http://books.google.com/books?id=ric6OhxbCS0C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=ade+obayemi+yoruba&source=bl&ots=tacfbue9Qp&sig=UJvKt5ntV4B-jGYg3JSpWHa4KjU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YDmSUsvOF5SisQSo-4HoBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ade%20obayemi%20yoruba&f=false

Let's not conflate mythology with accepted reality in other to term it all mythology. You rightly stated that noble families had poets and bards whose jobs were to embellish and create legends of their sponsors.

1. The female Oduduwa is mythical. Similar to the Oduduwa that climbed down a chain. Most historians agree Oduduwa was male. Whilst you may not agree that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, there is sufficient evidence from both Ife and Bini sources to conclude that there was a man called Oduduwa. Bini has no reason to lie about a Chief Oliha traveling to Ife to request for Oduduwa to assume the throne of his fathers. It is another argument whether the man they met at Ife was in fact Ekaladerhan. Both Bini and Ife agree that there was a man called Oduduwa. Ife doesn't exactly date Oduduwa's reign but Bini dates it at 12th/13th century based on the time of Oranmiyan in Bini and the birth of Oba Eweka.

2. It may be difficult to date pre-christ Yoruba migrations/life/etc but it's not that difficult with Yoruba 1000 years ago. We can't place Adam & Eve in the same category as Sango/Ajaka. As in one above, Ajaka and Sango were sired by Oranyan. It is universally accepted that Sango's mother is Tapa and he lived with his mother's people until he was called by the Oyo mesi to rescue Ajaka from the Owu. Ife and Bini historians agree that Oranyan was the father of Eweka, Ajaka, and Sango. There is a reason why Ife and Bini argue about who is who's father. Ife states that it sired Bini because Oranyan's son became King and Bini states that it sired Ife because Ekaladerhan/Oduduwa was king at Ife.

3. Very important - Oduduwa is not the progenitor of the Yoruba and that is why Ijebu reference does not go to him. Oduduwa being present at the creation of the world is Ife mythology. It is not Yoruba mythology. The battles between Oduduwa and Obatala has both real and mythological versions. Mythology - 1) Oduduwa was female and Obatala's wife 2) Oduduwa climbed down a chain and completed the job Olodunmare asked Obatala to do (create the world), hence the feud between them. Reality - Oduduwa met Obatala at Ife and fought him. There are various versions of this battle. 1) The people revolted and made Oduduwa king (Bini version) 2) Oduduwa invaded with a party (Ife), hence the celebration of this battle at Ife. Oduduwa's children established many kingdoms, hence why his version of creation is told in most places. Ifa was present at Ife through Orunmila and it is said that Ifa foretold of Oduduwa's emergence. Obayemi's works is proof of Yoruba pre-dating Oduduwa. Yoruba history is similar to British history. The creation of the start of the British nation is credited to Saxons. They came with their language and the first English kings were Saxons. But there were Britons on the island before the Saxon invasion.

4. We should not class everything as myth simply because there is some embellishment. We must try to identify what is real and ignore the legends. To doubt Oduduwa is to doubt Oranmiyan, Eweka, Sango and all the kings who came after them. I am not really trying to convince you but only that you need to come up with something stronger than the notion that since there is some myth, then everything must be mythology. There is mythology about Sango but should we doubt his existence as well? There is mythology about Odysseus but his existence is confirmed in Greek, Turkish, and Italian history. And while there is some controversy about his father, it is generally accepted that Laertes was his father.

Jencejyde:

Making mockery of the 3 points lane boys is like being happy that tyson beat up a 5 year old.

More important is arsenal having key players available and in good form against chelshit and mancity.

I guess you are unaware of the football situation in North London.

Can the real gunners please stand up?

Spurs are taking a beating and these 'gunners' are quiet. Ok, maybe they are naija gunners who know nothing of the beef with spurs.

@ Terra Cotta

I believe Oranyan (Oranmiyan in Benin) was one person and he sired the kings at Oyo and Benin. The reference to a woman (Oduduwa) in Ketu might have been to Okanbi's daughter who married the first Alaketu; since the original Alaketu was a son-in-law. I don't have any reason to doubt Oduduwa's grandchildren moving to other parts of the SW to start new kingdoms. Afterall, Oranyan went to Benin, Niger, etc. If Oranyan was just a title, then who sired Ajaka and Sango?

In all of my submissions, including my first post in response to you, I separated what I believed to be mythological/cosmogonic history from what I believe to be actual history. If you label most history as mythological, where (date) do you believe the cultural history started? Oduduwa was female in traditional Ifa religion and male in Yoruba mythology. In that myth, Oduduwa climbed down a chain. There are elements of facts in mythology but it is just usually exaggerated and embellished by offsprings of the legends. Sango was an Alaafin who was defied after his death and became a god. Did his wives really turn into rivers? No but legend made it so. The same with the Oduduwa/Obatala rivalry and feud.

Interesting but we have to agree to disagree.

MetaPhysical:

What is sacred in Arabic?

Muqaddas I think.

TerraCotta:

I know that Dr. Falola's books, and virtually every other mainstream historian, characterize Oduduwa as a man. Even Ade Obayemi does in most of his work. My point is not that Oduduwa was "really" a man or a woman--the point is that Oduduwa is a mythological character whose identity is shaped by political motivations in the case of current Ife, Benin etc. claims. In my view, it is unlikely there was ever a single man or woman named Oduduwa, and the earliest references I know of to someone named Oduduwa seem to be to an Ife goddess associated with the Ogboni society in Ife.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxL03_ajZNgC&pg=PA7&dq=ife+before+oduduwa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FrhmUrb2BsqAygGr7YCwDQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ife%20before%20oduduwa&f=false



I think I've clarified this now. In my opinion, Oduduwa is part of a complex of Yoruba mythic references to powerful figures and leadership. The word "Odu" is in fact an archaic word for "political head" or chief. We can see it in use with several other mythic terms with which the name shares some similarities, like Ol"odu"mare and "Odu" Ifa.

I believe Reverend Johnson's excellent book "History of the Yorubas" has some well-known flaws when discussing events before the 19th century. I think many modern readers (historians and non-specialists alike) have relied on his interpretation of Oduduwa as a warrior-king or ancestor of other kings in the general Yoruba-Edo region. As I showed in the other post, other historians who wrote before and after Johnson disagree with his view, but eventually Johnson's view has become the mainstream one. Notably, in Ketu (considered the eldest of the "original" kingdoms), Oduduwa is considered a woman.

There are references to possible historical figures who initiated new dynasties at Ife--Lajamusan, Oranmiyan and others--but even these are not certain. There are even other locations named Ife (or dialectical variations like Ufe, Ife, Iffeh etc), including Ife-Ijummu, which is Obayemi's hometown. History is a lot more complex than the simplified story of a single man or even a single dynasty.



Okay. Look forward to talking some other time.

Ok this is an interesting point of view. So in line with this view, who sired Alaketu, Onipopo, Onisabe, Oranmiyan, Olowu, etc?

I am willing to explore this line of thought.

macof:

If u don't still get it, I wonder how u would

Don't be condescending. Be explicit and lucid.

PAGAN 9JA:


both are implements. even the shape of the items depicted is similar.

There are thousands of different groups in the world; I dont get what point that proves.

A-40:

Ronaldo is a stats padder! I don't care much for the 3rd,4th and 5th goal scored in a game against Levante and Osasuna

My point is Ribery also outclassed him in a category and won trophies to boot


It is a team sport! And any awards must take into cognizance team achievements If not we might as well forget about trophies and lets just give the team with the highest goalscorer the title!

You watch basketball tell me who the better player is between Blake Griffin and Chris Paul?


Look at the way he celebrates when he scores. Me! Me! Me! Teammates don't like that and neither do coaches


Iniesta only scored in the Final and against Chile didn't do too much else you can't compare the degree of robbery to Sneijder's case

Ok, they only give the award to goal scorers?

Iniesta was fantastic all season and capped it with a WC win.

Purist:

You gotta wonder how Portugal ended up having to qualify via play-offs if he was all that. Don't get me wrong, I think he's been fantastic and would actually be deserving of the ballon d'or. However, I don't quite buy the increasingly poplar notion that he's clearly the favourite to win it. Messi and Ribery have just as much chance, and left to me, I'd vote for Messi over the other two.

What I don't even get is the bias for goal scorers. They are all talking about Ronaldo scoring a hat trick when Moutinho gave two assists to Ronaldo in that match. The last assist was HEAVENLY. Yet, Ronaldo gets the glory.

The award is given for performance over a season and I dont see the basis for giving it to Ronaldo for a match against Sweden when Portugal couldn't even finish above Russia.

A-40:

Ronaldo scored the most goals but is he the best player over 2013? I don't think so. With Ronaldo all I see is goals and in games he cannot score he consistently fails to influence in other ways. Perspective needs to be applied in all things! Goals which is the main bone of contention is not Ribery's forte but what about assists? Ronaldo for all purpose and intents is a goal machine,Ribery is a provider which is why he is harder to shut down

Isn't it ironic that since Messi and Ronaldo have started their goalscoring war the trophy cabinets of both teams have suddenly dried up!

An individual award in a team sport must always factor team achievement! Till Ronaldo picks up the ball from his goal to go and score all season long then the team just has to play a factor


Yet the universal consensus is that Sneijder was robbed! Everyone knows Messi was not the best player in the world that year

Sneijder was robbed and so was Iniesta in 2010.

Messi is a great player but voters don't watch enough football. They just go with who is scoring.

macof:

But lightening is

And what does that prove?

macof:

Where did u get this from

Even before the name "Sango" was given to the force of lightening, "Jakuta" was used and also had a hammer which u used to shape stones and send them down to earth as lightening.

Sango(the human, king of Oyo) used a double headed axe and when he died, Sango(the force of lightening) was portrayed holding a double headed axe

Thor holding hammer, controlling lightening isn't a coincidence.

It means Thor and Sango are same force with different personification

Hammer and Axe are not the same things.

@ TerraCotta

In Toyin Falola's book, Oduduwa is referred to as male and the Olokun as his wife. It also provides that there was a battle between Oduduwa and Obatala. Interestingly, Falola mentions Ade Obayemi in that book.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxL03_ajZNgC&pg=PA7&dq=ife+before+oduduwa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FrhmUrb2BsqAygGr7YCwDQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ife%20before%20oduduwa&f=false

If I can find Isola Olomola's book on Google as well, I will post the relevant pages.

So my question to you - you believe Oduduwa to be female and that she was indigenous to Ife?

I have read Babatunde Lawal's Ejiwapo. It's Friday and my brain is tired. I may return to re-read your post over the weekend.

Thanks

PAGAN 9JA:


It is a miracle. Paganism is the true way of how religions should be. That is my underlying point.



He means to say that Yorubas spread from Ife. It doesnt have to be false. It can be true. or it can be the final settling place of the Volta-Congoid people, from where they emerged in their final form as Yorubas.

1. It is not a miracle; it is an inconsistency.

2. There is no doubt that some Yoruba groups migrated from Ife to other places

3. Language families disproves the theory of evolution after migration. Similarly, scientists have argued that the brain development is necessary for migration.

I really don't get what is so upsetting about migration that some have to cling to this notion that God birthed their nations in their current locations.

PAGAN 9JA:



Inconclusive? i dont think so.

I can show you many more examples. I just cant think of them now.


inconclusive maybe. but not false.

Lord Sango does carry an implement though.

who said Shango is THors cousin? There is no connecction.

Yorubas didnt know what Thor is.

I don't doubt that you can show examples. But what I find funny is that on one hand you claimed that evolution happened after migration and then on the other hand you are claiming that there are similarities between gods in different groups. That there is inconsistency.

In any case, you introduced evolution into the debate. Macof fed into it because it fits into his belief of the world being created at Ife. We know that to be false. Ife may have been the pre-eminent Yoruba state at some point but there is nothing to suggest that there weren't other Yoruba groups around at the same time.

Of course I know Yorubas didn't know who Thor was.

PAGAN 9JA:



Let me give you an example.

Shango is a War God. Thor is a War God. Amadioha is a War God.

All Carry Hammers.

All Throw Lightning.

is this a coincidence?

same goes to other Gods/Goddesses - Fertility, Wisdom, etc.

That is inconclusive. All ancient groups had the same survival needs, hence why there are similarities in the gods they prayed to. And the Sango carrying hammer was a non-Yoruba creation; as Sango was said to be Thor's cousin.