₦airaland Forum

sleep or rest or hibernation, what ever you call it are myths set to be feed to those who cannot grapple with the stark realities of life; that we are in a cold and indifferent world and no angel or vampire is building a hut or mansion somewhere. death is the end of everything for every creature. nobody has died and said he saw goats or chickens. why is that only humans are found in hell and heaven? it is just of those crazy stories similar to creationism.

ogajim:
They go to SLEEP/Rest. Study your Bible very well, the Rapture is not for show, God is not the God of the dead.

and Christians are not the first to conjecture out that rapture story, the egyptians had theirs, they store food in burial chambers of their pharaoh for him to chop on the way. of course nobody chopped it . besides, i thought it was the love of God that would lead us to Him rather than fear of Rapture.

bjmighty:
If you are able to cure all your father's imbecility in 3 days as u expect Fashola to solve all Lagos problem in his 3 years in office, you can then come back here and speak. It's obvious you are just a tool in the hands of one of those frustrated opposition looking to succeed Fashola. Best of luck anyway!

thank God! you admitted. we would just wait till the light rail system comes.

aletheia:
And Atheism is not a philosophy? Proof of the existence of the christian God? All around you. The universe screams: Intelligent Design & Purpose.

atheism is birth from facts. intelligent design & purpose? why has there been so many extinctions? the bible is believed to be correct but its origins are neither studied nor challenged by the Christians because that is where its weakness lies.

bjmighty:
@@@@KAY17, You are suffering from brain disorder and all your bid to get treated by a psychiatrist have been hitting the brick wall because these men are wondered by the fact that your slowpoke father too has the same ailment. I wonder what the fate of your children's children would be. May God deliver you from your hereditary brain imbecility. You are an absolute failure to humanity, the most fitting habitat for you and your slowpoke father is the zoo. You can make a lotf of money you know! Omo Oloriburuku!!

you are glad that you sha typed something, something that has nothing to do with the topic. I used the opportunity granted by freedom of speech, to express my objections, all leaders including Yar dua have been looking busy. he waited for three months for the strike to wreck the education sector b4 acting, chilled for the Niger Delta matter to get hotter b4 acting and is waiting for the power sector to totally crash b4 acting.Even Oyo state governor has shared taxi cabs to people. Fashola has extended roads brought BRT, but has the transportation problem eased much? is security in Lagos good? are the police and traffic agencies treating people well? are people's rights to their property secured? no, no, no. Rather, harass beggars, propose an harebrained ID card scheme for which purpose has not been explained and paint cars and buildings and package them as development, then planting flowers. Lagos needs more. this was the same guy that was spraying money(buying votes??) during his campaign in Mushin rather than educate us on the manifesto of his party.

olabowale:
Am going to let the christians trip over themselves while fighting it out wth Huxley in their efforts to fit Jesus, Holy Ghost (I miss that girl called ~Lady, so the ghost thing is for you, woman) and Father all together in the assortedly "unique" box of God, as quipped by the questioner.

When they fail, I am going to put Huxley, though he has a hard heart, except when he is sleeping the ghost seeing talking in tongue's christian women, and the christians, in their denial and multiplication existence, respectively whereby neither makes God Unique!

When you render something unnecessary, it loses all its actual function and role, unless you are absolutely sure! Huxley is not sure but just being a typical stubborn african who reads to much and lets all the fantasies get lodged in his head. He is not longer using his heart!

When you render something to have clones, co-equal with others, it actually loses the special position of Uniqueness , there is no exeption! The Christians are so lazy and irresponsible to take responsibility for their own actions, they have to find somebody to take the blame! I say to them and all muslims say that there is no partner with God, not Ghost, not Jesus, no way, no how!

@Deep Sight: There is nothing calle Godhead. God is not quantumfied as in Pyramidic constituents, where you have the pak and below are otheres. The peak will not be Unique because of the others in the pyramid

why do you accept Christianity, what led you to it and not other religions?

but its a philosophy?

in order words, as a result of idleness??

toneyb:
Can you really separate what you label as core values and what you label as cultural values? I say this because the way of life of people a group of people(culture) is what determines their in most cases values. Kay 17 gave an excellent example of the old German tribes where it was not even possible to steal because no man owns property where does your core belief in stealing apply to this society since it is structured on a culture that does not even permıt stealing in the first place? There are exceptions to all these beliefs. Example back during the OT days it was ok to enslave the gentiles, It was ok and acceptable to pillage the lands of the gentiles during war, despoil their women and steal their belongings. The core values had no application in such societies. Morality has no absolutes because it keeps evolving. People used to accept the poor treatment of blacks based on the color of our skin. Enslaving blacks was the right thing to do and was accepted by the society. Public hanging of run away slaves was acceptable. It wasn't a core value at that time.

There are people that still believe today that it is very right  for women to be publicly flogged when they go out alone in some extremist Islamic countries(Parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan) Where does what you call core values apply her? Homosexuals are now been allowed to marry in some western countries something that was against the core beliefs of most of the countries granting them those rights about 200 years ago. Morality is determined by the way of life of the people and what you label as core values vary from society to society. Even core values change from time to time and from generation to generation. What is considered to be against our core values today might be accepted by our grand children's generation.

I don't want to derail this thread for you because I don't think these discussion was part of what you were expecting. I will allow you and the people your posed those questions to, to respond to your queries.

spoke my mind! wonderful! morality is variable and what relevance does it have to your prime mover.  the holocaust is unfortunate and like slavery was a time seem okay and later dreadful. you  see people going to the old slave ports and exclaiming about the inhumanity, but if they there at that time it would not seem that bad to them. besides, a bishop once recommended slavery.

Deep Sight:
Sauer -

I do not subscribe to any religion.

But i am a theist, since i believe in the existence of God.

I can define God in a number of ways.

1. The compound of all self-existent laws

2. The oneness of infinity.

Is there anything irrational about this?

why did the your prime mover create us?

so you think there are as that many gods?

Deep Sight:
Although this thread is for Team A and Team B Members, i cannot resist making a few comments:

Thanks for this Toneyyyyyy. . .

My perception is that basic conscience is common to humanity. Now, given the fact of human diversity there will doubtless be, as you correctly stated, instances of practices which deviate from that which may normally be considered "good" or acceptable. However you will agree that in all such instances, the generality of humanity is able to perceive such actions as unseemly. For example the aztecs practiced human sacrifice. Although it seemed acceptable to them, you will certainly agree that the generality of mankind views such as barbaric. Ditto for killing of twins etc.

Now there is a direct co-relation to secular criminal law that seals this point. In the perception of The State, murder is wrong, and punishable. In the perception of a serial-killer, it might be acceptable. However the perception of the state is representative of what the people as a whole think, in that the secular law is based on the perception of the majority in citizenry, theoretically speaking at least. Thus it would be right to state that for a given country, murder being wrong is indeed written in the hearts of the people EVEN IF there exist people (like serial killers) who think it's fair game.

Accordingly i may equally state that murder being wrong is written in the hearts of humanity as a whole, EVEN IF there are or have been tribes that practiced human sacrifice at a state level.

Now i need to make one important point.

Let me suggest to you that there is a difference between core values and cultural values. Because it seems to me that you are mixing up both when you talked about "observing the sabbath" not being written in our hearts.

Core values, in my view, are values which are timeless and universal. An example might be - "Stealing other people's property is wrong." I doubt that there is or has been any society that does not frown on such.

Cultural Values, however, are not moralistic in the pure sense, but deal with cultural dictates only - the sabbath - might be an example. Cultural values are limited to given cultures, nations or tribes.

May i suggest to you that core values are written in the heart in conscience, whilst cultural values are not. May i suggest to you that core values are the real morals whilst cultural values are mere norms. Does this make some sense to you?

This also finds some grounding in criminal jurisprudence. There are crimes called Mala in se (inherently evil) - such as murder, and then crimes called mala prohibita (wrong because specifically prohibited) - such as not parking your car in the right place, or not paying a prescribed fee, etc. Mala in se deals with things which all men should be able to sense as inherently evil and subversive. Mala prohibita deals with things which are only wrong because the government says so. I think that core values pertain to the former and cultural values to the latter.

pls deep sight you went too far. what is right or wrong varies from society to society. though murder is widely prohibited because without such a rule, the community is in danger from itself, but it excused on varied grounds. the Aztecs excused human sacrifice, the Calabar tribe excused the murder of twins but when weighed on the standards of other societies it is totally unacceptable. In the Prophet Mohammed's days, marrying and having sex with 9 years was a common practice but frowned at in other societies and in present times. the Jews stoned anybody for any wrong they believed the individual did, revenge-killing was permitted and even in Albania today. my conclusion is that the basis for determining right or wrong cannot be the generality of societies but by that particular society's standards. stealing in some societies is not wrong or NOT POSSIBLE( this is to be understood constructively) because no man owns property like the old German tribes. @ Je soul, is an individual conscience used or an average man's conscience of a particular society or that of Christian?

@krayola, so your conclusion is that muslims and christians would go to heaven?

we are all products of our environment. also codes of morality differ according to cultures. i do not think there is a piece of our heart that has written on it some laws of some sorts.

[quote author=Jean! link=topic=359384.msg5047100#msg5047100 date=1259920777]Thank God for internet forums. It is a great place to learn.
In my opinion I do not think Nigeria's problem is number of state it has. The major thing that should be pursued with all sincerity is Rule of Law. There should be strict law enforcement in every sector of the nation. If we have just 6 geopolitical zones as suggested by Mr Anyaoku and structures are not put in place to ensure people abide by state laws I fore see a worse off nation.
I think also that having more financial control in more people's hand is far better than money being held/controlled by few super powerfuls (even now I think of the issue of King Makers and the evil they perpetrate under present structure). Some way or the other money spreads around.
We must not forget that what we need in this country is for things to work and work efficiently too. Human being have the tendency to do some level of criminal acts and get away with it. It is when strict adherence to regulations/laws is enforced that people will sit right and do right. The Rule of Law should be so entrenched that 'sacred cows' are 'slaughtered' by the law just like any other animal when they break the law.[/quote]Rule of Law will always be a problem in every state since this not Heaven, in the US, it is a problem too. but the for the checks and balances to prevent to work the right conditions must be set. with this idea of six geopolitical regions is workable for federal system since revenue base is larger and bureaucracy would smaller, easier to control and effective. they would serve as counter weights to the federal govt. they would be able fund their projects independently and there would be little interference from the fg and responsibilities like power generation, water supply, security, maintenance of roads would given to the states since they would be stronger. fg would freer to concentrate on diplomacy and defence. that was why the highest rate of development occurred in the first republic. free quality education in the West.

Krayola:
@kay 17. Your post is grossly misinformed IMO

Fundamentalist Christians ≠ All Christians

Fundamentalist Muslims ≠ All Muslims

To just put labels on groups and make such misinformed judgements is kinda troubling.

1st of all orthodox Jews don't teach that the earth was created in 6 days, or that Noah's flood was an actual event. Some fundamentalist expressions of Judaism and Christianity teach that but those are fringe groups. And it's in places like Africa or the deep south in yankee where people aren't well educated that these crooked preachers propagate such. No credible seminary or Bible school has taught that stuff in close to forty years.

Anyways, my final class of my university education is in half n hour. After that I get time well well. Alleluia,   

I'll be back (In Austrian accent)

sorry krayola, i'm sorry that i did not stress the thousands of divisions and sects of the general religions. the House of the Lord is divided. it buttresses my point, that belief as a result of its nature varies vastly even within a religion. some worship mary, others jesus, some others moses etc. the simple conclusion is that there is no material evidence that supports the nature and extent of the religion, therefore every man does what seems best. the pathetic story is that every one of them thinks they are right.

bimbusky:
but were talking about almighty god. prove the non existence of that one

agnostics are a band of confused minds. this is simple. the church outrightly confess that their entire religion is based on belief. belief is not the same with fact. belief is a psychological state in which an individual holds a premise to be true regardless of the true facts while a fact is a pragmatic truth which is capable be checked and confirmed. truth is the state of been in accordance with reality. from this definitions supplied by wikipedia, belief is entirely subjective and is being manipulated by the individual that holds them and it shares similarity with illusion, while facts is an objective check with reality and far different from opinion and belief.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           that, thus explains the differences in religion. the christians believe that the earth was created in 6 days which is TERRIBLY inconsistent with reality(if you bring the omniscient argument for this one, then you imply that the demon of malaria is responsible for malaria rather than plasmodium because you would be dismissin the current knowledge we hold and substitute it for the junk  in the Bible) , the yorubas believe that an idiot oduduwa with the help of a two toed chicken and a handful of sand, created earth.there other bizarre stories put forward by other religions. we are in the age of reason, and that has served us well since we do not need to rely on prayer to cast out the demon of malaria and HIV. if we rely on belief to explain our existence then which of the myriad religions we are to pick from.                                                                                                                                                                                                                   @aletheia, prove that your God exists and why your religion among all others( tens of thousands of religions and millions of gods) is the ONE,  pls , do not use that omniscient argument again because i would not accept any thing that comes out of your head since you are not one. if your God is not dark matter, pls do not refer it.

PapaBrowne:
@Wirinet

Let me give you a slight analogy.
Imagine for one moment a set of twins in their mother's womb.

One twin says : "Hey, we have a mother. She is responsible for all that we are. We exist because she allowed some guy somewhere between her legs.We are alive because she eats and drinks. She cares so much for us that she goes regularly to a guy called doctor for something called ante-natal".
"Sometimes I hear her speak to us. She calls us babies. She loves us so much that she would do anything for us.
She says we give her joy. I hear it. She keeps thinking about us every moment".

The other twin replies. "What are you talking about. You are just imagining things. There is nothing like Mother. Have you ever seen her? If you say she speaks to us, how come I never hear her? Hey fella, I am on the side of "what you see, is what you get" No hidden charges or bonuses. I wouldn't waste my time thinking about some Mother  that you've just imagined up".
"If truly we have a mother, why can't she come get us out of this blood soaked tight sac that we've been locked up in since conception".

Twin one says": If only you understood you wouldn't speak like this. She loves us so much that she is going to endure the most grueling pain of her life just to get us out of here. It won't be long, we would be out of here in her arms, free to move around and at the same time feel her love.
She would give us bosom to suck, food to eat, she would bathe us and put us to bed. So much love she would give to us.

The other twin: All this your talk looks too good to be true. However, I only believe in things I see. I don't see a mother, So I know I don't have one. I'll rather wait till that 9 months you keep talking about is over, then maybe I'll believe.


This analogy gives you a perfect picture on our relationship with God. You don't have to see to believe. The mere fact that a baby can't see or feel the presence of it's mother doesn't mean the mother doesn't exist.
For me, I know for sure that I didn't make my digestive system, neither did I do anything to ensure that my lungs process oxygen. I know for sure that it has all been regulated by my creator.

Hey Atheists, we all know atheism is a ruse and it exists solely because God exists. If believers in God are wrong, then there should be no need for such a thing as atheism.

your analogy is improper, because you did not state the means thru which the first twin became aware of the existence of the mother. that was crucial to the story. and the boundary that lies between theists and atheists.

babapupa:
It was not meant for you, you're incapable of rational thoughts. I dare not waste my time messing with an ignoramus like you,

you watch there and say nothing, you doubt the constitutional provision in my last post, but ratther than provide the correction or the correct interpretation, you mumble nonsense you have still not given any reason for the ID cards and such disclosure of personal details. its plain that you must be an omo isale eko because your gullibility has reached a critical level. Fashola is like any Nigerian leader: he is a thief and a demagogue.

seeklove:
@poster,


There is no contradiction between the two verses. One says:"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, " The other says:"Answer a fool as his folly deserves, "

To answer a fool as his folly deserves does not mean to answer a him/her according to his folly.

To answer one according to his folly is to reply to a fool in a foolish way. It means to condescend to his level, to become a fool too.

To answer a fool as he deserves could mean to explain his folly to him, to warn him or to chastise him for his folly.

I will give an example:
To answer a thief(a criminal) according to his crime, could mean to steal from him. To commit theft. To do the same thing that the criminal did.

To answer a thief as he deserves could mean to punish him for his crimes, ie put in him in jail. In a nut-shell give him the treatment he deserves. 

Put togerther, the verse simply says: Dont become a fool or do foolish things in answering a fool, but give him what he deserves. 

I will give another example
If a sombody insults you while conversing with him, dont insult him back. Insulting him back is like answer him according to his folly.
But you can answer him by telling him to stick to the subject of the matter and refrain from insulting you. To make him see that what he did(insulting you) was wrong.

See you have answered him as his folly deserves but not acording to his folly.

I apologize for attacking you in the past, since I found you in here in the religion forum. In this forum we store no malice.

just twisted everything to his convenience. its a simple contradiction, answer is the key word and "as folly deserves" describes the extent of folly as much as "according to folly"

Sky Blue:
Point taken. However I hope you are aware that no state can actually choose how many officers it can hire into the force. Lagos State government has been fighting for state police to give it better control over its security, hence when you say it is Fashola's police it just sounds quite silly. Police is a federal insitution, not ka state one. It is thesame reason why state governments don't normally repair federal roads, it is the responsibility of the federal government. Why don't we just stop parambulating and get to the point. You alluded to their being nothing but beaitification projects and the likes, and downplayed the importance of Eko Atlantic and what the project actually entails. You have shown you were ignorant of the subject and you are only interested in arguing for no reason. Stick to the topic of development in Lagos state, is there anything tangible to show for the current administration's term? I believe so. The issue isn't that, the issue is whether you feel it is enough or whether it justifies the time and funds spent. Stop dragging down the quality of the discourse.

the gurnor has no power to recruit or determine the composition of the police within the state but he has operational powers and can assist in arming and providing equipment for them. i feel that the current development he is undertaking is short-sighted and a quick fix which if not supplemented would make matters worse. planting grass and flower about, is good and not bad but all this extensions of roads will ease the transport problem for a while but Lagos due to population growth render these efforts negligible. revolutionary development is needed and not trees and flowers or IDs. Lagos needs a Metro. clearing helpless beggars would only hurt our conscience.

small ones are nice!

babapupa:
He must have personally conveyed this to you in your dream.

Freedom of speech shouldn't be an excuse for the nonsense you're spewing,

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR THE ID? what happens to those that are not qualified to have one? its simple.

Sky Blue:
His police? Since when did Lagos state government run its own police? Please when making allegations at least provide something resembling evidence to back up such. You were driving with expired papers and according to your story decided to bribe the whomever for a non existent zebra crossing? What do you want us to do about that?

you really need basic research. as a nigerian there is an obligation to read the constitution. that is why you think like a illiterate. you do not have a level of expectation for your leaders. the guvnor of each state is to issue orders and instructions on the security of the state to the commissioner.it is thus the responsibility of the state of security is that of the gurnor. and the verdict:terrible.[quote author=babapupa link=topic=360677.msg5042056#msg5042056 date=1259852515]https://lagosindicatoronline.com/images/Tejuosho2_b.gif

https://lagosindicatoronline.com/images/Tejuosho1_b.gif

The on-going work on site is essentially a re-development project under the auspices of the Lagos State Government with necessary support of interested private sector operators. The objective of the re-development exercise is to; among other targets, ensure that the market, upon completion, is able to accommodate 10,000 traders in a healthy, well-managed environment of world-class standard. The project's plan makes provision for a well-equipped fire station and a truck loading and off-loading facility. Others are a police post, a sewage treatment plant and a car park with the capacity to accommodate at least 580 cars.

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AS OF OCTOBER 09.

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COMPLETION IS DEC. 2010.

what is this?  you draw up animated cars and buildings and say this is what Fashola has offered you and  you mention that in some distant time,the fruits will be reaped , this is not the first in Nigeria that plans are drawn. Yar dua said 6000mw in dec then we praise and hail him?  besides what benefits will be enjoyed by the masses?

blacksta:
Why are you acting deluded  - Can you please confirm what was on ground before fashola came to office. metro projects take time and cost billions - The BRT project was a project that could be delivered quickly.  From people i have spoken who use this infrastructure.  I am happy to confirm that brt has made a significant difference.  Journeys that took hours can now be done in minutes.

his police and "para-security" have terrorised and extorted the masses, he has given them licence fire at people not criminals, that do not conform to his muslim dress code.he has authorised them to beat and if possible kill people in order to enforce an environmental law. pls mention a place in Lagos were traffic rules are posted. last week, i shredded 5k for a non-existent zebra crossing and because my papers expired two days earlier, thus i was a "criminal"

pls, has BRT solved the transportation crisis? Lagos is a metropole and one of the most populated cities in Africa and has no City Metro. Joburg has, Cairo has, Windhoek has!!. BRT simply increases the traffic pressure on the road and is definitely not a long term solution and fast becoming a disaster. But the ingenious Govnor has a nice plan: throw out non-indigenes.

mazaje:
The problem with the religionist is that they go around bandying their stories, myths and beliefs as facts or "truths" when they are not. The truth is the truth and it does NOT require belief at all. . . .

excellent point there

aletheia:
Before I respond to your initial question I would like to understand what you mean when you say "facts are known not believed because doubt is inherent in every belief." What do you define as: 1. fact 2. belief. This discussion would be unproductive if we are not sure about the meaning of the words the other is using. Granted in all religions most are conditioned [/i]to accept their particular religion but that does not rule out the existence of God(s). As for your assertion about man's vast base of scientific knowledge; the question I would like to ask you is this: Is there a limit, a boundary to what that science can reveal? Moreover, has it occurred to you that that same science is [i]based upon some philosophical propositions (I will try to address that on the thread you asked me to open).
I am acquainted with the basic premises of other religions.

it has been mentioned several times here that to equally prove your God, you have to be omniscient, since no knowledge would be accepted from anyone who is not omniscient by you. Also you consistently make the error of equating belief with facts and that is wrong. e.g, i know that malaria is caused by plasmodium- fact. a muslim believes that Allah is in the sky above-belief, a Christian believes that it is the demon of malaria that causes malaria and can be driven away with only prayer and i know chloroquine is sufficient for malaria. thus, a religious belief is not backed by facts but fuelled by imagination. and also why do you share so much characteristics with pagans and muslims?

aletheia:
1. Your god helped free his chosen people. So you acknowledge for a fact He exists? BTW His chosen ones also includes Rwandans.
2. Why so much angst and anger towards Someone whose existence you deny. Could it be, there is a still small voice within you that acknowledges His existence?

at the end the chosen Rwandans were butchered. if aletheia was there, he would also have been butchered but the Tutsi army after hearing about the slaughter, God had arranged for the Rwandans and aletheia(if he was there), set out rescue them and it took them 100 days(the duration of the genocide)reach Kigali, they finally stopped it. but if the Tutsi victiims had waited for God, ah ah ah , they would been wiped out.

Sky Blue:
You might want to educate yourself on the projects embarked on and the nature of such projects. You might also want to educate yourself on the projects completed too. Criticism is one thing, but just criticising for the sake of it without being able to make solid points is just another.

/another illiterate/ i took pains enumerate the several problems, pls mention the projects? oh, Atlantis?

why didn't God grant a second chance to to Bimbo and the others in hell? at least that would have been fair.

do you know or you believe that God exists? facts are known not believed because doubt is inherent in every belief. in all religions, a theist is not given an opportunity explore other religions or beliefs but rather conditioned to accept that particular religion. that why a shi'ite child would flog himself to near death during the mourning of the massacre of Mohammed's grandson husayn . someone he has never known not to speak an intimate relationship. religions distort reality. atheist assertion is based on man's vast base of scientific knowledge not on belief or philosophy. have tried other religions?

@blackspade, fashola has done so much like repatriating beggars to kaduna, by investing in trees and flowers, also an harebrained scheme for ids for LAGOS CITIZENS, proliferate lgs, depriving people of their property and draw up a proposal to build Atlantis while transportation system has broken down, standard of public schools is declining steadily, crime rate is on the rise, his police and "para-security" are terrorising and extorting the masses and finally creating dustbin jobs. of course in a country that has hardly seen good things and does not understand the nature and process of democracy, he is working!

it is stated that there is only one way to Christ, and yet there are thousands. it is such a pity to much confusion in the House of God.

deucelaw:
God said cry to me in times of trouble and i will deliver thee, And jesus said come to me all ye that are heavy laden and i will give you rest, He also said Seek first the kingdom of heaven and every other thing shall be added unto you (including protection), It is true that our God is an awesome and merciful God but his grace which is sufficient all is not for everybody.It is for those who have accepted christ and confirmed to sons of God. thats the pre-quisite, My question is "Have the Rwandans played their own part and God failed?, have they given their life to Christ and embrace righteousness, and Did they call on the God who never fail to rescue them in terms of trouble? ", we all know the answer, The world is a wicked place, ruled by darkness and principalities. To be protected we should run to God and he will never fail us.

it is not as far as that. there was no one to make magical interventions, that was why they ended up that way; if not HE would have PARTED THE SEA for them. @ obalende, just admit that you do not know what you are talking about. there are many sects of christianity with different yans. terms like trinity, godhead do not exist in your bible. so do not bore me.

murderer! a revolution is by the people not criminal minds.