₦airaland Forum

BraveGuy: EVERYTHING!

The elusive particle is the SPOKEN WORD of God, which contains the energy that holds/supports/glues ALL things to be held together. I am happy that you will take the time to listen to some of the lectures of Dr Lipton. Afterwards, I will explain to you that all he was trying to explain was already in the Bible.

The Bible didn't say a word on that either.

I forgot to ask a very important question: where are the interpretational rules used to understand the Bible, found?

BraveGuy: To be honest with you, when I first heard of the Big Bang Theory, I could see some credibility and even compatibility with Genesis 1 there. But, you and I know that with the advent of the "redshift" explanation and also a very strong point made by someone of the crucial beginning, I began to doubt the theory. See:
"If the open universe we see today is extrapolated back near the beginning, the ratio of the actual density of matter in the universe to the critical density must differ from unity by just a part in 1059. Any larger deviation would result in a universe already collapsed on itself or already dissipated."
Read more here:
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/BB-top-30.asp

Now the Higgs Boson theory is of a higher calibre scientific explanation, too. But then, it has a lot of holes as well.

This is what they are calling the "holy grail of particle physics," over at CERN. They spent 10 billion to build it just to find the Higgs Boson, after all.

I just felt my Bible gives the BEST plausible beginning to Creation and I'm yet to see any notable theory dispossess it. It says of the Creator in Hebrews 1:3,
"who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (ASV)

So you know most scientific cosmological theories conflict with the Bible?

But the Christians should try to understand the atheists here. Apart from the afterlife promises which aren't really guaranteed, what are the benefits of being a Christian on earth? Essentially God is a father figure that affords Christians a protection from the pains and sufferings of life. He ought to give joy to the Christian world.

But this airline disaster along with other disasters in the world isn't the best sign of protection. Christians were killed in the crash, leaving grieving Christian families. So Christians have to draw the line between the Christians and the unbelievers, because one must ask; is there any difference?!

@braveguy

I have given you my take on the Bible. By the way, since you trust scientific explanations, why don't you accept the prevalent scientific cosmological theory - the Big Ban.g theory - it looks like you pick and choose what you want.

Besides, if you do, the belief in a being that created the entire Universe out of nothing is irrational. Also the belief in miracles, miracles being the belief in an illogical unexplainable phenomena

italo: What can be used to test it?

Reason.

@italo

But faith can not be used to test the truthfulness or falsehood of an idea or thought

italo: Of course.

There's no human without faith. It just depends who or what you have faith in...and the extent of faith one has.

Christians have faith in Jesus.

Wives have faith in husbands.

Children have faith in parents.

Students have faith in teachers.

Many have faith in scientists.

I agree with you.

@braveguy

I'm trying to keep this simple.for us to define what Divine inspiration would mean is to assume God's existence. It is to put the cart before the horse. The bible was supposed to be the proof of God's existence and also define who God is. However we have been able to discover through discourse that the Biblical writers developed the concept of divine inspiration upon which they rested their work.

However it is actually their own opinion on what divine inspiration means. Braveguy you need a clear mind to understand what I am saying.

Secondly, if you are aware of biblical texts and their history, you would know that the writer of the book of Daniels was NOT writing from Daniel's time rather a later period. The writer was actually making pseudo prophecies.

BraveGuy: That is exactly what Jesus said, you need some childlike innocence. However, it doesn't mean that you should be confined in childlike manners. It is a MINDSET, for the natural man is uninitiated and cannot understand; there is a childlike simplicity attached to these things.

So you mean it is impossible that God could not have taken Moses and started showing him, as in a big screen, like a cinema? If His Creation are intelligent enough to make video records of their acts (eg a movie), why can't He?



So, when Daniel wrote about his spiritual encounters with angels and they spoke to him, it was his opinion?



So, you mean all the prophecies foretold in the Bible that are unfolding daily are man-made?

I did ask, which other Book in history can match the character and essence of the Holy Bible, you are yet to answer this. This Book you claim to be floating in the air with no foundation, do you know how many lives it has transformed? Those are the REAL EXTERNAL witnesses you need. How many Books in history have done that?

1. The underlying factor in guile at defending the Bible is your Faith.

2. Your Faith is at work. If you approach any book with your kind of Faith, they wld be the best book in the world lool! Ask a muslim with such a faith, the Quran is the greatest book. Allah could as well put Muhammed in a cinema and show him everything.

MizMyColi: No Dear, of course he is! we were created with free will......what we do with it is upto us. If I were a rebellious child, would it be wise to conclude that I'm not my Father's daughter seeing as He's a man of peace, integrity and honour? No! I chose to be that way. Does that mean my father loves me any less? No! Did you read 1stCor13?

I asked who created the human capacity/potential to be violent. A human can decide violent or not but he does have the potential. Except you want to say humans have the ability to redesign themselves.

BraveGuy: 1. . It is apparent from most Books of the Bible whose names are associated with which Book of the 66 Books of the Bible. For example, the first five Books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are called the Books of Moses. Why? Because Moses wrote them. So, it is very easy to ascribe authorship to Moses. Those were more of historical and instructional Books.

Then we have ones such as The Prophets (making prophecies). For example, Daniel. In there, he recorded of his personal spiritual encounters with angels and they shared information of things that would happen in the future with him. Some of those things he did not understand and when he tried to inquire, they told him not to bother because it had nothing to do with his generation, but that it was for the END of Days.

The same can be said of Paul the apostle in the New Testament. For example, we have the Epistle of Paul to the Romans or to the Ephesians, etc. Even in the case of a Book called Philemon, which was more or less a letter to one person, made it into the Compendium.

If we have someone like Moses, Daniel, Paul, etc., write these Books, then why do we take authorship from these people and ascribe it to God? The reasons cannot be removed from the purpose of God from the very beginning of Man's creation. God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:26-27)

That is, God was after the creation that was to be in the same nature as Himself - holy and powerful to dominate a certain aspect of His work (Earth) and creative, just like Himself. But, Man fell and had to be redeemed. So, all the laws, instructions, prophecies, dreams, visions, that would culminate into Books were to make Man come to this realization. That if you fall, it's not the end, you can rise again.

The implication of human authorship as I have explained above is that what they were writing were simply inspired by God. How do we know know this? Take what Daniel wrote for example, 'I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?" He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.' (Daniel 12:8-9)

Now, if Daniel was the author, why would he write to describe things that he would not understand and yet be asking or declaring, "I heard, but I did not understand"? And when he did ask, he was asked to simply "go your way". This few verses explicitly shows that Daniel was not the author of the Book, he was simply a writer of what He was inspired to write.

That was why we read from Peter the apostle:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

And we also read from Paul:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Secondly, as writers and not really authors of the Scriptures, can we say the Bible is without human errors? No, because we humans are prone to mistakes. Many times, when I am writing something, I jump words or even misapply punctuations. But that does not mean the fact of what I was trying to say is heretic, it was just that I made a writing mistake not one of essence. Transcription error is not the same as Inspirational error, neither the converse.

A glaring example of this is the FOUR GOSPEL accounts. Anyone reading through them will discover discrepancies here and there, but does that mean the essence is incorrect? Absolutely not. Here are four different people sharing a story from four different viewpoints. It is as if each were standing at the four corners of the world and relaying their stories. It is akin to CNN and BBC, you can expect them to be saying exactly the same thing or using the same camera, each will have their own variations.

Overall, most people see these things - names associated with Books or different accounts of the same story and declare if God is the author then there is no God or these are men's works and has nothing to do with the Almighty God. On the surface, that may be admissible, but with critical examination, such conclusions are without merit.

One major thing that I must add to these implications is that, for most of these Books, at the time of their writing, it wasn't as if the writers knew or foreknew that it will form part of a compendium that will become the bible. No, they had no idea that would happen. In their minds, as in the case of Paul, they thought they were writing to an individual or a small group of people. The same can be said of most great things in the world today. The founders, e.g Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc did not start out with world dominance in mind. But, God was behind the curtain, orchestrating things all along.




2. . . One simple test.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

I am quite sure that you have heard the mystical experience called being "born again" before. This experience, to simplify it, Jesus described it to be similar to a woman giving birth to a baby. That is, a when a person accepts (believes and confesses) the saving grace that is in Jesus Christ, he is given the power of ability of sonship, which helps him to overcome the nature of sin that enslaves people.

Due to the fact that the Spirit of God "gives birth" to the individual, the person has a deposit of that Spirit in his heart. So, when he's reading a text or hearing a speech, if it is true, that Spirit in him will make feel at peace and in agreement that this is of God, and if it is man-made, a deep-seated feeling of rejection will overwhelm him from within as well. This is why it is often difficult to deceive a born-again believer in God. Because he has a "Witness within". Although, most times too, the believer ignore this Witness within and gets entangled in all sorts. This deep-seated feeling is also called perception.

Also, there are times when the humanity of individual (the five senses) will be too overwhelming that it he ignores the "Witness within". When this happens in a sincere manner, not out of disobedience, God usually sends other external means of communication to confirm the ignored "Witness within" as being true. A good example of this is in Acts 21:10-13.

I hope my brief answers would have thrown some light into your concerns or questions about the Bible.

1. I enjoy your childlike innocence. The way you wholehearted accept whatever is written in the Bible. For example, you without further investigation, accepted that the books of Moses must have been written by Moses despite being written in third person and recording events that occurred thousands of years before he was born.

Nonetheless each book clearly conveys the opinions of the writers not of God because God never said a word. God was quiet all through the Bible and neither did God himself confirm what the bible writers said was true.

2. . I'd assume your answer is no, because you referred to the Bible again. My view is the Bible is floating in midair with no foundation and without the trappings of divinity.

Let's all start from a common ground - the place of faith in Christianity/Islam - Faith is definitely the life of Christianity, there is no Christian without Faith, right?

MizMyColi: It certainly doesn't come from THE CREATOR, for in him there is no darkness, neither shadow of turning. Any god who has such violent capacity must be my devil.




No, True love which finds its perfect expression in My God doesn't. If you can, please read 1st Corinthians 13.

1. Then the necessary conclusion must be that this peace loving God is not the Creator of the violent malicious humans.

2. You didn't say what this true love meant.

MizMyColi: To my Christian Friends


If we are going to renounce all wrath and physical violence toward other flesh and blood humans who are all made in the image of God, THEN we also need to include with that - righteous resolve to vanquish all verbal violence, tone-of-voice violence, and thought violence. It's a package deal. - Richard Murray.

Thus where does man's capacity for violence, hatred and malice originate from? Wouldn't such qualities come from the supposed Creator?

And when you talk about Love, I must ask, what does Love really mean? Doesn't love sometimes lead to hatred?

@tcdministry

Before the Internet came, the Bible was not authentic. Now thanks to the Internet it is.

BraveGuy: That is a lot. Where do we begin?

Let me start from here - So what makes the Bible stand out?

There is the PROPHETIC Proof.
There are many prophecies in the Bible which have been fulfilled to the letter. Prophecies concerning the rise and fall of the Babylonian Empire, the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire are all mentioned in the Book of Daniel, Chapter 2.

Another prophecy is the one concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which was uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ. This was concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, we read:

Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation (Luke 19:41-44 – NKJ)

This is one of the things that makes the Bible to stand out.

Sorry to drag you back, but stay within the issues.

1. The human authorship of the Bible and its implications.

2. The criteria for INSPIRATION by God, is laid out in the Bible and not in any external source. How valid would those criteria be?

BraveGuy: I almost missed this comment.
Undoubtedly, the authorship of the Bible, especially the current Bible that we have is one of the most hotly contested topics in Christendom, however, it comes only after it has been agreed or confirmed that, at least, there must be an Intelligent Designer behind the Universe. If there is, then there must be some sort of instruction (like a manual to a machinery) as to the Creation He has made. If that also is agreed, then we are faced with numerous religious texts that purport to be from this Almighty God, among which you have the Bible.
So what makes the Bible stand out?
How was it written?
Who actually wrote it?
Can it be trusted?
If we say it was divinely inspired what does that really mean?
How do we know that the writers were not just writing from the figment of their imaginations?
These are just a few things we can consider in tackling this topic.

BUT what are your answers?

tdcministry: Holiness is possible only with God; the authors of the bible have their names everywhere on the internet

Ah the Internet!

@braveguy
@mazaje
@weah96

Let's all focus on just one issue.

That is the authorship of the Bible. It is the most important issue, since the Bible is the only validation for the Christian God. If the Akannile girl or whatever has visions, it can either be from the Devil or God, so her visions are immaterial. Better still, God can plant visions in all our heads, if he wishes to.

My take on the issue of the authorship of the Bible is: the Bible as confirmed by braveguy himself, is written/chalked down by humans albeit under INSPIRATION from God. The manner of proving the inspiration is a sub-issue. However it is clear that in the perspective of the biblical writers they believe they were inspired. They have their opinion as to what Divine Inspiration means, but most importantly there is no external nor objective criteria of divine Inspiration!

So the Bible is nothing more than the self confessions of its writers. That's my take. Pls provide yours.

tdcministry: Holiness is the act of living a life free from sin; all of the sins in the world
Are all seen as morally wrong; that is why God is real

But it is not possible for you to talk about sin without including God and the Bible, because they are the only context sin can be defined/described. So you have prove that the Bible is true, which you cannot. You cannot vouch for the authenticity of the Bible, you don't even know the authors, or history preceding the writing of the books.

On the flip side, it seems the "macho" men have an inferiority complex for sophisticated women.

BraveGuy: Where is the cart before the horse?

Genesis 1:1 was specific of the creation of the Universe..... the heavens and the earth. From there it went to a specific subset of the whole sum, the planet Earth, which was described succintly.

The Creation story in Genesis gives a sound and elements of scientific method right the first chapter. Tell me, how do you interpret data without first identifying a frame of reference? Genesis 1:2 gives you that. The events that followed can be referenced that single verse.

That same verse also gives you the starting frame of the initial conditions, almost like a blank canvas, through that verse you can determine the initial conditions of planet earth, a microcosm of the known universe. It states four conditions of what the Earth was - formless, empty of life, water was covering it, and darkness covered it altogether.

As a scientist, do you try to interpret or make conclusions before you able to establish your experiments? Have you ever tried to examine the order of events when, where and what happened as Genesis 1 neatly presents it? All the theories that have been postulated so far struggle with these three simple scientific logical sequences. Is it the Big Bang theory or the Higgs Boson Particle theory that gives us these simple logic?

And what about the final conditions, which of your theories again gives us the "Final Conditions", in Genesis, you get the presentation of this logic. This gives us the sequence of events of the six-day-creation days.

Braveguy does not follow the arguments. Rather he is having a difficult time following the arguments. Such a haphazard manner of communicating.

I'm concerned with the proof of God's existence, you said the Bible solidly proves it whereas you claim in the same breath that God wrote the Book which ought to prove his existence. It does not malke any sense!!

And for Providence's sake, how could you believe a Caucasian is Jesus Christ?!

It is crystal clear that the Bible is a BIG joke.

@braveguy

You are placing the cart before the horse. First of all prove God's existence. The Bible you said proves God's existence is supposedly inspired by the same God you are trying to prove! It is super circular. I hope you see it.

Besides the Bible, upon careful investigation, is not as spectacular as you say. Modern Science dwarfs it in knowledge. I have read more useful books than the Bible.


It is laughable to believe the picture the akannile girl painted was Jesus when you have never seen Jesus and how he looks like. You are ridiculous and too simpleminded.

Sixix: 1. This is a propaganda just like the tale of 72 virgins.

2. It was a man who was living in mecca after it had been captured. He would write defamatory poems about the Prophet, the religion and the Muslim women. In Islam, the death penalty is exclusively for just two type of crimes, murder and disruption of the peace of the land. So I guess that was the reason he was killed, mind you it was also under an Islamic rule.
There are hadiths where people insulted the prophet and in each and every one of them, he never reacted violently or ordered the their deaths.

3. Just like number one is pure propaganda


'Fighting is ordained for you, though it is repugnant to you; but it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you like a thing while it is bad for you. Allah knows all things, and you know not'

The starting point was the Prophet never beheaded anyone, NOW you have managed to find the exceptions which you deceptively omitted.

What is the punishment for Apostasy?

And Adultery?

And blasphemy?

pfijacobs: with men... Its impossible... But with God all things are possible...


He uses d foolish things to confound the wise... Op stop trying to crosschek and believe totally in faith

The most annoying thing about these Christians is that they would find all sorts of excuses to cover up the deficiencies and weaknesses of their faith and hypocritically jump at the nearest proof for their faith.

But thankfully you have accepted the Christian faith is rubbish!

@braveguy

Now hope you realise that the Bible is your validation of the existence of God, YET the Bible itself is validated by God! Lool!! You are ridiculous! In order words, you are making up a circular argument that begins with an assumption of God's existence.

Now, I will visit the Akiane issue. She painted a man's face with flowing hair and you expect me to think that is Jesus? You expect me to assume that her dreams must have some sort of significance? No I don't want to make such spurious assumptions as you are fond of.

If Jesus or God want to talk to me, they know where to find me.

It depends on how time is understood. Going back in time obviously means reversing the effects of change. And time is often compared with space/distance, so if we can traverse space to and fro, equally we should be able to manipulate time.

@braveguy


Did you realise you didn't answer a single question?

The main Q was upon what authority are you able to assert that the Bible was inspired. What's the distinguishing factor?

Are you saying the Spiritual is a radio wave?

BraveGuy: 1. Well, I think that is becoming more grammatical in expression; those writers were INSPIRED by the Spirit of God. Where you see the examples of these is when people are writing about things that is exceptionally beyond their human comprehension. As in my previous points, you have the case of Moses talking about the fact that human blood is what carries the ingredient of the human life - haemoglobin, Job talking about the treasures (wonders) of the snow or taxonomy as in Genesis 1.
The congruence, coherence, agreement, independence, interdependence of the 66 Books is incredible!
Attributing authorship to the writers is just a matter of academic exercise not the essence of it.

2. Another point from your question is,
The matter is, this is also spiritual, sometime people are transported in time (sort of time travel) through visions and dreams to observe event and activities. So, yes it is possible that some of these people "witnessed" Creation. Not physically but spiritually.

It is like you abandoned the Creation Myth, so I suppose you coneded to it.

1. Upon what authority are you able to declare that the authors of the Bible whom you do not personally know, were inspired by a spiritual phenomenon God? Also if a subject is not within the comprehension of the supposed author, isn't that proof such author is the most unlikely author of such subject?

Are you willing to concede to people who have done beyond human comprehension, as men of God?

2. Define spiritual and how it is detected.

The spiritual/physical dichtomy gang has invaded this space too. As to the Nostradamus problem, we haven't seen him as a time tourist in our time yet!