₦airaland Forum

Probably there is no God. That's a possibility Christians do not consider at all.

texanomaly: A pastor who does this is irresponsible. And any member that's listens to him has left there common sense at home.

God doesn't want us to disregard medication and healthcare. He expects us to use the tools provided to us.

Wasn't it equally irresponsible and foolish for Peter to step out of the sanctuary of a boat and to attempt to walk on water?

Even if the lady is formally informed of the man's intentions, there still has to be mutual attraction. Befriending a lady is one of the best romantic moves, but the downside is if she isn't interested or attracted to the man, the phenomenon friendzone occurs.

Besides men that are too formal are obviously bad at pre-intimacy.

Image123: You're stating the obvious, take a pat on that back of yours. The Word of God is all about telling us all what to do. We then obey in faith. Faith without works is worse than senseless, the Bible says it's dead.

BUT the action to take is not the Christian's choice (as you have said God commands the action) yet the Faith is. Obeying divine commands is the evidence for Faith.

. . . And all the problems materialize out of the fictional inconsistent divide between the physical and spiritual

The oneness of infinity is flirtatious and absolutely vague and ambiguous. We have to be pardoned for having zero ideas about it.

Image123: Yes. i doubt you know what you ask though.

I know what I asked. Apparently from what you have said, God makes the decision of what action is to be made not us mortals. Incidentally we merely extend and further our faith by obeying God. At the end of the day, "faith without works" makes no sense.

PastorAIO: Nietzsche is class. It seems as if the guy had x-ray vision for seeing into the true motivations for what people say and do. If you read nietzsche too much you'll find yourself no longer believing anything that anyone says or any ideology whether religious or political.

A fascinating thing about him is the question, 'where did he get all these insights from'? The guy was a total recluse and he hardly interacted with people yet he knew human nature so well. He was probably the first modern psychologist.

"Every philosophy is a self confession."

Image123: if God asked her to do that. He asked Peter to step out, remember?

Only when God asks of you to do work, right?

mployer: If escaping hell is your only reason for being a christian then you are probably not. Christianity is more than escaping hell, its living the invisible life of God on earth. It might not be easy for to comprehend cos u don't have what it takes to do that-the Holy Spirit.

What if I don't want love anybody and I want to be a secluded recluse, will I still go to hell?! And being human, I don't want to go to hell, invariably wouldn't I have the fear of hell in mind?

mnwankwo: Hi Kay. Thanks for your comment. Yes, it is possible that some human beings may invent reasons to rationalize evil and suffering. But inventions and rationalizations will sooner rather than later be found out. The will of GOD manifests in the irrevocable march of events and these events will show the individual, groups or nations that the rationalizations or inventions are not true or real. In the experience of these events, they will find contradictions and clear reasons which contradict the excuses or rationalization. In the search for the Truth, one must not be a spectator but be immersed in the experience of each moment. If we experience every second in full consciousness, we will very soon perceive the non-material worlds where our threads of fate originated. We can then with clinical precision follow the threads of fate and find the basis for all reactions in our lives and that of others. We will have the evidence that that the good and bad things that happen to us are not arbitrary or random but are consequences of our free volition. Not only that, we can also see that it is possible to change our fate and stir it in a different direction. Our spirit will then unfold with the deepest gratitude to GOD, who created the laws by which men can raise themselves to the kingdom of GOD or descend to the realms of darkness. It lies within us to have the light of heaven or the darkness of hell. The freewill is a sacred gift that GOD gave to us. It is so sacred that we can use it even against GOD who gave us the gift. But then, only the choice is free. Man is irrevocably bound to the consequences of his free-willed choices. Stay blessed.

. . . And it is self evident that all civilizations have built longlasting myths and religions to iron out and resolve meaningless living and suffering. However most of these religions are protected from scrutiny by Faith. A well guarded religion is hardly vulnerable to criticism as we can see in Christianity, Hinduism, Islam. Same goes your explanation for the suffering in the world. It is a product of intuition (which is beyond the region of reason and scrutiny). There is no way one can ascertain there was a prelife and an eternal responsibility attached to it.

2. Also, to blame people for their misfortunes and sufferings is hardly kind and is an act of cruelty. To assume people deserve their pains and hardships, to assume Jews and Tutsis deserved to be butchered, to assume war and rape victims deserve their pains; kills the necessary empathy we have to share with them in order to lessen their sufferings. And without empathy, there is no love.

Who told Kola's story?

mnwankwo: Hi Kay. Thanks for your comment. Yes, human suffering, disease, evil and similar things are not the will of GOD for us. No sane earthly father wishes evil for his children. How much more GOD, who is the creator, the source of Living Love. Indeed GOD is the Living Love. Our choices in former lives is just a consequence of free will. Therefore the correct explanation for suffering is the misuse of free will by those creatures that intrinsically possess that ability of free will. As I said previously, our choices in our former incarnations, in the present incarnation as well as in other non-physical planes that we have sojourned forms our fate. As one prophet of GOD once said "As men stir their little ship of life, so will it glide through the water of life". A deep understanding of freewill will solve all the mysteries about the origin of evil, suffering and similar things. Evil, disease, suffering, etc came into existence as a result of misapplication of the power of GOD. A misapplication or wrong union of the powers of GOD that pulsate in creation will result in diseases, suffering, evil, etc. God does not, and indeed cannot misapply his own powers. Thus it is impossible for GOD to create suffering, evil and similar things. Creatures with free will can apply the power of GOD according to their own volition. If they use it according to the intrinsic nature of these powers, they will create or form good but if they mix the powers in ways that are opposed to the intrinsic nature of these powers, they will form evil and wrong unions. Like a potter with clay in his hands, man has the choice to mold the clay into beautiful works of arts or turn it into nuclear bombs. The fruit cannot be different from the seed. The evil that we see today is a very clear evidence that we as individuals, communities, groups and nations have been sowing evil seeds.

If each of us start from today to will what is pure and noble in all our activities, the evil will gradually loose it grip and will entirely cease to exist. Evil and suffering are aberrations brought about by misapplication of the powers inherent in the laws of GOD. Just look at the man of today. He abuses his physical body by over-eaten, smoking, alcohol consumption, sedentary life style, shallow breathing, etc and abuses his soul bodies by impure and ignoble thoughts of lust, envy, jealousy, maliciousness, etc, and when as a consequences of these misapplication he succumbs to one illness or the other, then he will either say it is Gods will or the work of the devil. It is neither the will of GOD nor the work of the devil but a consequence of his free-willed choices. Those who do not abuse their physical or soul bodies anymore but are struck by one illness or the other are (i) harvesting the fruits of the abuse they once sowed in a former existence, (ii) prenatally accepted the illness or suffering in order to be equipped for a particular mission (for example one can prenatally accept to experience cancer in order to find its cure in a later incarnation or accept to aid the work of a son of God by being blind such that when he crosses the path of the divine messenger, his sight will be restored and such a miracle can awaken some sleeping souls from spiritual slumber), and (iii) a victim of misapplication of the the laws of GOD by other human beings. Since on earth, good and evil people dwell side by side, the possibility exist that the third option may happen but the laws of GOD will compensate such a victim. It is a prize that we may sometimes pay because we wanted to experience on earth. No body is forced to come on earth. We are here because we asked for it and our request was granted by God. Stay blessed.

Good. We are on the same page. You see our prelife freewilled actions as the principal cause of meaningless suffering and hardship, but note we are humans with a physical disposition and our perspectives shall always be earthly (in the sense that we are bound to accept what our senses and mind tell us). Couldn't it be that when we are confronted with meaningless sufferings and being rational and psychological beings, we invent a meaningful cause so as to mettle down the burden we face from meaningless suffering. So that life becomes liveable.

I'm not making an assertion that it is the case, but that we humans have that capability and possibly use to accommodate suffering.

texanomaly: I wish I had answers that would satisfy you. Honestly I wish I did. You are right. Many atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of faith and spirituality. There is so much of it, in fact, that religion has become a joke, and or disappointment to many people. I actually started another long reply using time and ideas as a basis, but I realized…it doesn't matter what I say. I've said it all before. Others who are much more learned, and in tune with the spirit than me have also tried. No matter what any of us say, unless you are standing in the presence of God, you will not believe any of it. I can’t help you with this one. You are the only one who can. I’m truly sorry. I do hope someone comes along who will have what it takes to answer your questions to your satisfaction.

I understand you but try to collect as much spiritual perspectives as possible.

texanomaly: @ first bolded
This sentence is the reason I made my last statement. It WAS a compliment on your reasoning skills btw. There is a saying in the Southern United States. We sometimes say, “Bless your heart.” It can have a negative connotation or a positive connotation, depending on the way it is used. For me, sometimes it is used sarcastically. In your case, however, I use it both figuratively and literally.

Bless your heart, because logic tends to override it. You made a statement in a reply once to an op about love. The exact words alluded me at the moment, but the pure logic you used, in the face of matters of the heart, still come to mind when I see your moniker. Maybe the problem I see, when I read your comments, is that I’m not sure you can “see” in any other way. Now I am basing that purely on what I’ve seen here on NL, because I don’t know you at all. What you write here is all I have to go on. I’m sorry to make this personal. To answer your question fully, it is necessary.

This is the definition I found for reason:
rea•son
[ree-zuh n]

noun
1.
a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc.: the reason for declaring war.
2.
a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action.
3.
the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences.
4.
sound judgment; good sense.
5.
normal or sound powers of mind; sanity.




These are the words used:

basis or cause for
justification or explanation
mental power concerned with forming conclusions
sound judgment; good sense

These are all statements concerning thought processes that, if governed by the brain only, cannot comprehend spiritual matters. Your first question was:

What is our guide in spiritual matters other than reason? Faith? This is an excellent question.


This statement, you made next, shows me why you asked it, and why it is incomprehensible to you:
The spiritual is entirely unintelligble to our senses and mind. And no one on Nairaland takes the time to define it.

It is unintelligible to you because you are unable, at this time, to apprehend what is being said to you. You are listening with your mind. When you should be listening with your heart. Lol…I know, I know. That doesn’t make sense. Hence I say again, “Bless your heart.”

The spiritual is not necessarily a matter of reason. It does require knowledge, if one is to practice ones spirituality. We can’t just say we believe and we are good to go. The start of faith though does take something you, and many Atheist, may have lost, or may have never had. That is to get outside your head and think with your spirit. Now I know many of you think that is rubbish. Once again, it is not something that can be “known” without using faculties that are not of the 5 known senses. So…if you haven’t disregarded what I’m saying already, because it makes no sense to you, I’ll continue.

One of the definitions of spiritual is Incorporeal or immaterial nature. That alone precludes the five known senses. So even the definition of “spiritual” is alien to many. If one does not believe we have a spirt or that spirits exist, no amount of explanation will help them understand. I realize this just seems like smoke and mirrors. There is no other way to apprehend what spiritual means, when one is unwilling to contemplate that there are things out there that cannot be explained by our minds and 5 senses.

Well here we are back at the beginning. I have still not laid to rest the question “in your mind”. I am back to what everyone says…So in answer to your question…what is our guide in spiritual matters other than reason? Faith?

Yes you must have faith. I realize quoting the Bible is useless if the people you are quoting it to are nonbelievers in it, but this definition is perfect. Hebrews 11:1…Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To have faith is to hope for things which are not seen. Every day we act upon things we hope for, even before you see the end result. Faith is an action brought on by conviction. It cannot be quantitated or factored. It cannot be explained in a logical manner. Frankly, I feel those who possess it should be able to use evidentiary privilege against those who think only in terms of reason and logic, because it is incomprehendible to those who don’t believe the spiritual exists. We are not obligated to prove spirituality exists, what it is or how it works. You cannot and will not believe it, at this time, anyway.

That’s my two cents…for what it’s worth.

So bless you Kay17. Especially your heart.

You would agree with me that all knowledge lie either as truth or falsehood. Some people like mranony believe the truth is more valuable than falsehood, especially as regards spiritual matters.

There has to be a test for the truth, so whereby faith is a freetown medium to admit all sorts of ideas without a truth sieve in the name of the heart, falsehood would slip in. Reason and the laws of thought are extremely important. In the spiritual world, you wouldn't believe contradictions exist, right?

Again saying the spiritual is incorporeal and intangible, doesn't really cut it. An idea is both yet it is not regarded as spiritual. Time is not tangible either.

Image123: Stepping out.

stop asking purposeless questions, please.

Equally, a woman with ectopic pregnancy can do "work" by merely stepping into a church OR buying a bible OR by praying without going to the hospital to seek for expert medical advice, right? These are not purposeless questions rather they are directed to clarify your true position on the use of miracles by Christians.

Image123: A Christian should have faith all the time. Faith without works is dead. Faith is not a last resort, without faith it is impossible to please God.

When Peter stepped out of the boat to walk on water, what work did he do that guaranteed his miracle of walking on water?

PastorOluT: Adam’s sin turned men into natural born sinners, which resulted in a death sentence being passed on all men. This makes us all automatic candidates for hell. In other words, every unsaved soul is bound to end up in hell, from the President to the poorest man in the village. So you see, it’s very easy to arrive at this fearful destination. Even if we just sit down, doing nothing (just minding our own business), we will still end up there.

Therefore as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, SO DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because ALL MEN SINNED. ROM. 5:12 AMP.

What is God’s prescription for finding heaven and avoiding hell? Jesus said : Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3. My dear friend, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! There is no other option. You must receive Christ as your personal Saviour. Being Born Again is not a new idea, being propagated by some young churches. It is a fundamental, biblical instruction given by Christ to everyone! I know of course, that many people are sincere — but mistaken. And I am sad to say that sincerity alone will not save anybody. I also believe that every single Christian (especially pastors) will also give account to God, for witholding vital information about the reality of hell from others. If souls are perishing because of ignorance, then those with knowledge will definitely be held accountable.

Stay blessed and remain rapturable

Pastor, good post you have here.

Since sin is not a result of a deliberate act rather subconscious stimulation, then it is unjust to punish man for WHO he is. It is similar to punishing a lunatic for an action he is not fully responsible for.

mnwankwo: The purpose for which God - the creator created and imbued us with the talents or faculties is for us to find supreme joy and radiant happiness. The ultimate goal of spiritual evolution is to transform the talents inherent in the spirit (man) into abilities. Once these abilities become alive in a man, they will naturally place him or her in sync with the power of God, the creator. A man who have established this link with GOD will sense inner happiness and supreme joy. Whether such a man is rich or poor, healthy or sick, he bears peace within himself for the power of GOD to which he is linked will show him with clinical precision the how and why of his present situation. God doesn't will suffering or evil for any of his creatures, Suffering and evil simply arose as a consequence of misapplication of the power of GOD by those creatures that are blessed with the ability of free will. Man who is spirit is one of such creatures.

The problem with many people as the look at events in their own life and the world is that they look at externals and judge with only the physical faculties. Like the quotation in the opening post, they cannot find sense in what is happening in the world and question why God allow all these evil and injustice. A subplot to this assertion is that in their view, God doesn't exist if these terrible things happen to people. The origin of what many people are experiencing does not lie in the form or physical manifestation of the experience but in spiritual acts of free will which the person is not even conscious in the earthly sense. The origin of these spiritual decisions lie in most cases in a previous earth-life or from decisions taken in a non-physical plane. As the Igbo`s say, if you ask a man who didn't witness when a corpse was buried to exhume a corpse, he will start digging from the knee (wrong position). Before we were conceived, we are already in existence and we will be in existence after the so called physical death. In reality we have been in existence for millions of years both in physical and non-physical planes and with multifarious sojourns on earth (reincarnation). These experiences in various planes is one single continuum, and these experiences which are a consequence of our free free will form the tapestry of our fate. Billions of new threads are added to this tapestry of fate every hour as we make decisions and these new threads affect the sound and color of the tapestry of fate. In a single earth-life, only some few threads have ripened for harvest, and thus only the consequences of a small section are experienced in one earth life. Now a man who judges only by the faculties of the brain do not see the entire tapestry of fate, do not even seen the few threads that has ripened for harvest, but only see the physical manifestation of these few threads. Without knowing how the come about, how they were formed, how the matured and ripened for harvest, they stand confused at the fruit since they are not aware in the earthly sense of who, where, when the seeds were sowed. If this harvest is bad, they say it is evil and if it is good, they say its providence. But the reality is that God does not send blessing or curse to anyone, rather his adamantine laws (the will of GOD) return to each individual, groups, nations, the entire humanity the fruits of the seeds that they sowed. The adamantine laws of GOD are inherently imbued with the twin attributes of love and justice. Therefor no injustice can be found in the manifestation of the divine will. Whatever happens to us is a consequence of our free will. It can be (i) the fruits of the seeds we sowed, (ii) fruits of the seeds that others sowed but we accepted prenatally to experience them for the purpose of our own development, as a mission karma or as a result of accepting to experience on earth where both good and evil dwell side by side.

It is still a bit of surprise to me that some men think they will enter heaven with national flags or religious anthems. You religion, sex, status, nationality, etc is of no consequence to the laws of GOD, rather it is the activities of your spirit that the laws of GOD animate and which in turn will either lead one to the luminous kingdom of GOD or propel one to the realm of darkness and eventual spiritual death. Our motive, words, imagination, thoughts and intuition are what count before the laws of GOD. What a man sows, he reaps and his religious or nationalistic beliefs will not alter that. A christian who sows yam will harvest yam, the same goes for m.oslems, Buddhists, atheist, etc. A murderer remains a murderer irrespective of his religious beliefs. An act of genuine love remains the same and it is immaterial whether the perpetrator of such an act is a christian, m.oslem, Jew or an atheist. Look around and you will clearly see that good and bad things happen to people of different religions and beliefs. This should already be a pointer that the laws of GOD are quite different from what many think it is, and that these laws have nothing to do with the cloak of religious beliefs or affiliation. Stay blessed

In other words, human suffering is not in God's plan, since the plan is to produce supreme joy and happiness whereas human suffering is the direct opposite to that. Yet without the prelife actions which you believe sufficiently explains the suffering and evil we see today, you would agree with most atheists like Seun that meaningless suffering and evil is an antithesis to a loving God. Right?

texanomaly: Sometimes when I read your posts, I just smile and shake my head. Most of the time, I'm not even sure why. smh

Sorry I don't mean to derail. I'm in a strange mood.

@ topic
Good Question...Were there hospitals when Jesus walked the earth though? I guess you mean now.

Your mind works in logic and well defined practicality, it seems to me. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. There is no amount of expiation from a spiritual perspective that can convince you of anything.

I will take that as a compliment. However, what is our guide in spiritual matters other than reason? Faith?

What is the dividing line between the physical and the spiritual? I think it is a fictional division. The spiritual is entirely unintelligble to our senses and mind. And no one on Nairaland takes the time to define it.

Image123: It's like asking why there are trains when there are cars and motorcycles. They are different forms/modes of transportation. Miracles heal and hospitals heal, they are not competing with the other or mutually exclusive. Again, i advice you to follow David's advice, you're not sincere to learn.

HENCE one (a Christian) can decide to rely on his faith when plagued with a disease or cancerous tumour rather than go to a hospital?!

The subtle conclusion frequently made in this thread, is that miracle/faith should serve as a last resort when orthodox medicine fails. If a woman has an ectopic pregnancy, there is no reason why she shouldn't rely on her omnipotent God to actively heal her. At least doctors are not omnipotent.

Image123: Okay, i said i should be back to respond to the rest of the post and perhaps more comprehensively



Belief in God does not exclude having a lawyer or a tailor. There is no where God COMMANDS us to go to church when sick. How you arrive at that as true belief beats imagination. Faith in God is trusting God, it is the evidence of things not seen. That is, a 'hope' that one will be well when sick, instead of giving up. This 'hope' placed in God sees Him as in control of the universe and not permitting things to go out of His control. This 'hope' can cry/call to God for help especially for His glory, or when one is overwhelmed/helpless about the situation or sickness.
Faith in God is not carelessness or a resort to irresponsibility. God is not against medicine or humans bettering their lives with the use of science, technology etc. What He warns though is that we do not forget Him or completely place our trust in anything(ourselves or inventions) while neglecting God. Emphasis on NEGLECTING GOD.



There is NO COMMAND or injunction against human help. God created us as SOCIAL beings. Nothing stops us from taking our petitions and requests to God and still going to an hospital, they are not mutually exclusive events. Christians are to pray without ceasing, and to commit ALL their ways to God's hands. You have an exam/test, you pray and go to write. You don't just pray and not read, that is not what the Bible teaches. True faith is not irresponsibility, true faith is walking hand in hand with God, trusting Him to favour you and help you, and true faith is rooted in God's Word.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Here is God's Word, on a particular man that had frequent stomach troubles and infirmities. The writer prescribed something for him to use. Of course, it does not exclude faith in God, prayer, or people praying for him. They can all be done, nothing wrong with that. Anything used to treat or prevent illness is referred to as medicine. The Bible teaches that medicine does GOOD.
Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.


The above is what is okay for anyone to follow and God is not against it. It is different from MIRACLE. Miracle is not necessarily true faith/belief. God can do miracles, but it is not for normal living. Miracle is God doing the supernatural or unusual. Like keeping people in the wilderness for 40years, or delivering someone from evident theft, robbery or danger, fire, accident. Those are miraculous and they happen. But whether they happen or not, one can demonstrate true faith. Infact, their happening is not a proof of true faith. Miracles can happen through God's mercy, providence, sovereignty, prophecy etc, not necessarily faith. God does not command or require us to exclusively pray and do nothing else. You are to watch and pray.




This by implication applies to all cases of security to as little as having a door lock or a gate at one's house. Your reasoning will say at least God is your Shepherd and will deliver you from evil, so while have passwords or lock the door, or have mosquito nets. That is not the correct understanding or teaching, this is amongst why i said you are malinformed. God expects us to put up proper care and security for ourselves, bodies and nation. He has given us the collective wisdom and knowledge required. Nothing stops us from the use of soldiers, police, and other protective medium if it so requires. Even if it requires angels, God can give it. Apostle Paul was guarded by centurions to keep him from bodily harm by some zealots. Some people like the pope, some leaders are public figures are subject to attack, assassins, bodily harm, thronging etc. It is not wrong for them to be adequately protected. True faith is not irresponsibility or carelessness.



On the contrary, most so called conversions and altar calls are done with the so called encouragement that God will do so many things. Are you living on earth?


Miracles happen on the hospital bed too. Though i doubt if you believe miracles happen ANYWHERE even. There are different sources of healing, prayer is one, medical attention is one, laughter/good news is one, music is one, food is one, they are all valid.


Like David said earlier, "you should read the bible rather than pretending to ask questions that you clearly do not want answers to."
God specifically told him to, recall?


He didn't have enough men.


He healed those that went to the hospital too.


Because He didn't want him to at that time. He does not answer to you, does He? At another time, He did approve a census.

BUT why would Jesus resurrect the dead and heal the sick when there are hospitals?

^^

But you endorsed the article.

^^
LMAOO

Is every woman supposed to bow to every date and man?! The OP is as tasteless as the advice. The potential suitor ought to have the charm that ATTRACTS and form the nucleus for the relationship. Not bowing before every man that walks past and shows interest. That is not enough.

The biblical women you mentioned were seen as objects. Rebekah fell for a man she had never seen!

To prove the OP's narrowmindedness, he could not resist quoting the Bible as an omnipotent authority which holds alllll the truths in the world! That there is nothing new outside the Bible.

The OP is suffering from mental myopia. And until such defect is cured, there is no point educating the OP that Faith is the underlining basis of his religion. He just can't realise it.

davidylan: Even if Isaac Newton were here, you would not regard him as an intellectual heavyweight (whatever that means) either. To you, knowledge is simply about agreeing with your point of view... nothing to see here. Its a web forum, no one has anything to prove to anyone else. The only point to be made is that those who choose to use science as a platform for their own unbelief need to make sure they understand that science. Its quite rich coming here to whine about evolution when you can barely understand the scientific papers describing it. If you think that is arrogant then to each his own.

The intellect is obvious even while in error. So I don't regard everyone that agrees with me an intellectual nor do I regard those who disagree with me as i.diots

davidylan: Fantastic point... Jon Stewart is able to frame political issues in a humorous light. He understands US politics. Urban and his ilk mock religion and science that they can barely understand... as you said, it takes only an ignorant mind to do so.

How arrogant! Neither have you proven your religious and scientific knowledge NOR become an intellectual heavyweight here.

Davidlyan could not resist the temptation of derailing the thread.

Lool! Davidlyan will never change.

Anyway, never mind.

alexleo: I said it before and I'm saying it again- a robber(whether armed or not is not a Christian). No amount of tithing can make a robber a christian. You don't even know what it means to be a christian.

Hence there is no distinction btw a Christian, a genuine Christian and a born again Christian?

davidylan: careful there... you're beginning to devolve into incoherent tantrums.

And what's your answer?