₦airaland Forum

Joshthefirst: okay,
I assume you speak indirectly. A machine has no choice but to fulfill the intents of its maker? Or rather, the intent of a machine is the intent of its maker?
What gives machines intent if not the machine makers?
Do machines have freewill?
Remember:
A machine is a tool containing one or more parts that uses energy to perform an intended action.

How can humans be machines and still have freewill, having their own intents and taking their own actions?

Machines have makers do they not?
And you cannot tell me that evolution is our maker, evolution itself does not have intent. Or does it?

An odd comment from a theist, considering your belief that God preconceived man as a vision prior to creating him for a purpose. Man is likened to a machine in that regard.

Joshthefirst: But humans have more than natural intelligence. They have consciousness and supreme self awareness and rational thought and will.
Humans have spirit. Soul. This is not physical.
This cannot be inculcated into non-living things.

Don't confuse Consciousness for a Thing, its a sense/channel of self awareness, it is relational to a subject (we). Souls and Spirits are entities/objects for themselves.

okeyxyz: Proof?? Really?? I laugh in dothraki

There's no such thing as artificial consciousness. You rush too quickly and naively to declare the above. The only proof here is your lack of understanding of the world of computing and programming. What the robot in the OP does is simply captures data, identifies/determines patterns in the data and organizes such data to simulate learning(it's actually a trick in it's algorithm, rather than actual learning). Like I said before, there's no such thing as artificial or computer borne consciousness. Consciousness entails self-awareness, self-identity, self-determination(eg: ambition) and self-preservation. How can a computer be any of these. Does this program ever ask itself why it is doing what it is doing? It can't because it is not self-conscious. A conscious entity would be aware that it acts in certain ways either out of pleasure, or the will to survive or dominate in it's environment, etc, in other words self-interest. So what is the self-interest of this program? None!! It's just a robot, just processing what it's programmed to process in order to simulate learning.

Considering the fact that Consciousness is an intrinsic fact, a fact only available to the Conscious being itself; wouldn't it be beyond you to claim absolutely that there isn't artificial consciousness?!

Joshthefirst: should lawlessness and evil go unpunished?

I knew you would fall into your own trap of circular argument! You beg the quesyion of justice already, you already used Justice itself has the basis of justifying Justice

In other words, God likes justice because it is justice. Bad argument.

My contention remains the same, God is free willed, he can decide whether or not to follow Justice, he can decide to use another other means other than Jesus to redeem the world.

Olaadegbu is a sinner, and by such nature deceitful and wicked. It is not his place to preach righteousness and love. Jesus should come down himself and teach us his message. He appeared before his disciples and Paul, why not us?!

Why does Jesus send sinners to preach to us?!

Joshthefirst: I never placed a duty over God. He did it himself.

God is the one who set justice in motion.

Hmm. Let me put it this way.

Gods will is that justice be carried out. His will is in sync with justice itself. We know that from his word. God is bound to fulfill his word. He is bound by his own perfect integrity, which is of himself.

God is sustained by himself and his character has been chosen by himself.
God has unlimited power, boundless strength. But his decision has been to be good. His supremacy is Justice itself. He is good. He has chosen to be good and love. And he has taken it upon himself to be a just and righteous judge. Because he is God.

Why would God use a goat because of his power of omnipotence?
Why would God disrupt the order and nature of his own universe? By using a goat, that does not live forever, as the eternal substitute and saviour of mankind. That would be ridiculous. God made a goat to be a goat and a sheep to be a sheep.

Please what are you driving at?

Why did God choose to impose a duty of justice upon himself?

anochuko01: everythng u mentioned wouldnt be done while sleeping or sitting on the couch. Are careers and ministries not meant to be a platform to achieve these thngs?

God's purpose 4my life would need me to spend more time at home. therefore, i might never go into an 8am-6pm job.

Infact, most people who discover God's purpose 4 their lyf at a very latter stage tend to abandon their jobs no matter aw far de'v gne.

If God selects your purpose equal to that of a chicken, would you accept such a fate?

anochuko01: can u pls spare me ur tym and tell me ur own purpose in lyf nd aw u came abt dm.

I see my existence casts a reflective value system on the world,t hrough which I make sense of the world and at every moment of my life create meaning. I don't mistake myself for my job! Or my family or society's representations.

Even my sufferings are given such a meaning that empowers me more. And my potential death brings an endearment value in that since life is temporary, its beautiful.

So my career, "ministry", nairaland moniker, society are a very small bit of my life.

Joshthefirst: before Jesus, God revealed himself to those who sought him in different ways, but now he has revealed himself to us through his son. There was a duty upon God to fulfill the requirements of justice for mankinds sin. And that would mean death eternally. God ingenius solution was Jesus Christ. What I'm saying is that the salvation of God was carried out in such a way that it didn't break any more rules, and didn't infringe on humanity's freewill or Gods omnipotence.

1. Pls don't ever claim God is omnipotent if you are going to treat him as un-omnipotent. Placing a duty/order against God is a usurpation of his purported powers, I explained why God himself is beyond Justice but you wouldn't address that. And as I sai earlier god could have easily used a goat because of his power of omnipotence!!

2. Sin and Justice, how do those relate other than punishment is the justice for disobedience?!

Joshthefirst: the things people say....if God wishes, he can make a goat more valuable than a human?! for pete's sake?!

The sacrifice of Jesus was a genuine masterpiece. God saved man and dealt with evil in such a way that it won't disrupt his nature as God(his eternal omnipotence) and mans freewill

You are getting distracted, I talked about the necessity of the sacrifice and you accepted that there was no duty upon God to conform to.

Besides are you claiming prior to Jesus' sacrifice ppl were nt goin to heaven?

Joshthefirst: you honestly believe a goat would have been a good enough sacrifice for the humanity of mankind?

God is omnipotent, but the requirements of justice must be met. He's a judge.

But he sent Jesus not only to die for man, but to be raised from the dead for mankinds justification.

How would you like to put your trust in a goat that was raised from the dead.


Smh.

You failed to appreciate God's omnipotence. God provides the value of every entity so also Justice. In so far as Justice does not impose a duty on God, his Will remains supreme to Justice.

Besides I wonder what justice you said, in Jesus' mistrial.

And if God wishes, he can make a goat more valuable than a human. My point is clear: there is no demand on God to sacrifice Jesus.

anochuko01: i love this questn...bro.
Despite the fact that i'm an under-graduate, i've had enough 'words of assurance and revelatns from God' concerning my purpose in life, both in carrear and ministry. This is something i would av never been able to know without aving a living relatnshp with God.

Jeremiah didnt know the purpose of his life until he knew God. God even went on to empower him and gave him all he needed to fufil dis purpose (jeremiah 1:4-10). This is what God has done for me, and he will do 4everyone who comes to him (jeremiah 29:11-13).

I'v tasted both sides of life (life without and with God) and i can say that there's nothing lyk aving a living relatnshp with God. Discovering one's purpose in life starts with discovering God.

Despite the assurances and hope, you confuse your meaning to life with your social role in life. You are NOT your career neither is your ministry you! They are separable from you.

Your problem is you use representations and other things to define yourself. And christianity isn't helping.

Sit back, and think about yourself and what your being means.

Joshthefirst: it was a sacrifice for God the son to humble himself and become human. To humble himself and become a carpenter's son, to walk the streets of old israel preaching the kingdom of God and being persecuted, to die a shameful death when he was not guilty of any crime. To take upon himself wrath and the sins of man and remain in the grave.

His birth, life, and death are his sacrifice.

I doubt if Jesus' sacrifice was necessary. God being omnipotent by nature isn't bound by necessity, he can do whatever he wishes. God did not have to sacrifice Jesus, a goat could have served the purpose and even better.

Tell me what is your purpose in life?

anochuko01: we all would live 4ever....av u heard of eternity? Wat if aftr all it turns out to be true wat would bcome of u? I dnt knw ur bliv abt aftr-life but christainity provides a platform to live a wonderful life on earth and in eternity. Since i cant capture an angel 4u, i may nt be able 2prove much....

No, Christianity does not give full meaning to our existential issues. It does not address the issue of suffering properly. It gives a generic purpose/meaning in life to all human regardless of of our pecularities and which is obviously inadequate.

anochuko01: like i said....''when u'v exhausted your last resort, ONLY then will you know that there's a God somewhere''

Who is God?

NativeBoy: Excellent point. It is highly advanced machine learning but it isn't sentient.

If a machine is actually capable of Learning, it therefore exhibits some sentience, because learning involves some sort of empathy. Stepping into the shoes of another person, and appreciating distinctions.

Joshthefirst: hmmm. You're right shaa. God looks at the thoughts and intents of the heart. That's why looking upon one lustfully is the same as the very act before God.

Ma'am. Look at the b elow post.

If that's what you think too, then you misunderstand my post.
God had just killed the israelites for engaging in sexual immorality, why would he then encourage them to rap.e and commit sexual immorality. The women were kept as spoils of war, most probably as female slaves.

If you noted in the Bible, Jesus believed anger was worst than murder, because anger is the root of murder, as lust is the root of adultery and fornication. Hence cut the root and the whole tree comes tumbling down.

Jesus redefined morality away Mosaic Morals of Action to Morals of intent. In other words, intents carry the moral weight.

Joshthefirst: yes, according to logicboy, God sanctioned every evil in the bible.
People don't realize the bible is a history book that records human deeds. Everything in the bible is not that pleasant to see. But it is recorded so we can see the brutality and suffering sin has caused on this world and repent to avoid the brutality and suffering to come.



Thank God you said keep. Not rape. Why is your mind so inclined against God? So every female prisoner of war is raped?
The israelite men were not even allowed into camp with their POW's until they and the POW's were cleansed outside the camp.

The israelites did not seek Gods action before forcefully carting off the virgins of jabesh gilead.
They only sought God in the war. And its obvious God wasn't in support of them, as he gave them the wrong answer twice or so.


And Gods killing is judgement. God sentences top death sometimes. He's a judge. An eternal one for that matter.

You are approbating and reprobating at the same time, which is it? You seem to disagree God sanctioned the kidnap of virgins for the purpose of mere safekeeping, and later claiming to "keep for themselves" is not rape.

Excellent, you just showed how an action -- Murder has two different faces/purpose. To God, Murder is justifiable as long as it serves as a method of punishment. And what delineates that is intent/purpose.

Joshthefirst: smh. Double smh.
you read scripture with a biased mind, with the aim of discrediting God. Here're the passages:

Judges 21:12 Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found 400 young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
...19 Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, south of Lebonah and north of Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. 20 They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. 21 When you see the young women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to the land of Benjamin to be your wife!

22 And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be sympathetic. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find wives for all of them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not actually give your daughters to them in marriage.’”

23 So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. Each man caught one of the women as she danced in the celebration and carried her off to be his wife. They returned to their own land, and they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.

Please where in the above scripture did God sanction rape?. God did not tell them to do this. This is scripture:
6 In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.


Numbers 23:18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

How did God order rape?
God never ordered rape and he never will.

If you had read from the beginning of Joshua 21, you wld have discovered that the Israelites consulted with God (by throwing lots), prior to taking their further actions.

The 400 virgins from Jabesh gilead, were captives and are to be married obviously forcefully.

In the Midianite raid, Numbers 23, Moses speaking on behalf of God as he had always done, ordered the Israelites to raid and destroy the Midianites, kill off the population and preserve virgins girls amongst them. And KEEP the virgins for themselves. Ie virgins are items of use.

At least murder in your eyes is an absolute evil.

You have to convince me fear is a sin

okeyxyz: Proof?? Really?? I laugh in dothraki

There's no such thing as artificial consciousness. You rush too quickly and naively to declare the above. The only proof here is your lack of understanding of the world of computing and programming. What the robot in the OP does is simply captures data, identifies/determines patterns in the data and organizes such data to simulate learning(it's actually a trick in it's algorithm, rather than actual learning). Like I said before, there's no such thing as artificial or computer borne consciousness. Consciousness entails self-awareness, self-identity, self-determination(eg: ambition) and self-preservation. How can a computer be any of these. Does this program ever ask itself why it is doing what it is doing? It can't because it is not self-conscious. A conscious entity would be aware that it acts in certain ways either out of pleasure, or the will to survive or dominate in it's environment, etc, in other words self-interest. So what is the self-interest of this program? None!! It's just a robot, just processing what it's programmed to process in order to simulate learning.

Does consciousness necessarily exhibit self preservation? Self determination and self identity can be collapsed into self awareness (realization of the self).

You are nevertheless providing interesting points, and one I drew is, Intelligence can not be programmed nor actually created.

Bidam: Job did. He was afraid anytime his sons and daughters held parties.He always wake up in the morning to offer sacrifices peradventure they have sinned against God. That was his thought. Fear itself is SIN.

So you believe Job was a sinner, and that was the cause for his sufferings?

If you read the Book of Job carefully, you would come across job's friends who ostensibly went to console him. They saw Job's sufferings was so great, they sat in silence and torn clothings for 7 days!

However they laid down arguments that Job was an evil man, a sinner; just as you argue now. They accused Job of wrongdoing, of numerous sins of pride and greed. Job sad, rightly observed even evil men grow wealthy and old, die in old age and have many children!

Eventually God replies in a whirlwind, and faults your argument which is similar to Job's friends'

God said he created heaven and earth, that he created the ostrich to be faster than horses, yet daft and stupid. That he, God created and feed predators, that created the earth and everything.

God clearly answered that Job was not punished for his sins nor Adam's sins.

Pls read the Book of Job carefully.

Joshthefirst: When did christians consider rape good?

When has the bible agreed with rape?

I enjoyed Wiegraf's explanation and there is no better example, than to draw some examples/quiz from the bible.

Josh and texa both believe rap.e is an absolute evil, yet if God orders molestation, as in Judges 21 verses 12 and 19 - 23.

Smae with Numbers 31, 17 - 18. Note that pious men obey regardless of what is demanded from them same as Abraham.

My point is simply, an action can have two sides which is contrary to the universal morality.

texanomaly: How can rap.e be done morally? I'm hoping I am misunderstanding this post.

In simpler words, is rape immoral or the intent behind immoral

Joshthefirst: I believe there is absolute good and evil(sin, the transgression of God's law written in our minds)
I believe morals have an absolute.

What is the moral status of rape and murder OR do you think action can not be moral but the roots of such action, namely intents are truely moral

OLAADEGBU: When a natural tragedy happens like it happened to Job, you skeptics call it "an act of God" that you don't want to believe exist. Instead of you saying that we live in a fallen creation and that suffering and tragedies happen as a direct result of our sin, you blame God. Christians don't do that. We, like Job would rather justify a holy God than sinful man.

Job did not suffer from the punishments of sin, and God replied Job as regards his suffering, saying: HE is simply GOD. Not because job or his sons were sinners.

@joshthefirst

I asked for the definition of sin, for the sake of the thread, becuase you didn't take the care of providing one, which will be the bearing of this thread.

However, you believe there is universal good?

What is Sin?

And in respect to the design of function of the computer network?

On my next bone of contention: Sin is an act of disobedience to God either of a positive command (do this) or prohibitive command (don't do this). Ordinarily sins are not harmful in the sense that the act itself and by itself inflict harm nor equate to Evil.

For example, had Abraham refused to sacrifice his son Isaac, he would have merely sinned and not committed an evil.

I thought about that also, yet a theist's view will be entertained.