₦airaland Forum

Image123: Good, no problem, it's not instant messaging na.
God did not tempt Adam, He tested Adam. Satan tempted Eve. Just to set the records straight.
Now, having foresight is not necessarily equate to approval. An intelligent investor might have accurate foresight of future economy, doesn't mean he approves it. A metereologist might have foresight of weather conditions, without necessarily approving it.

As to foresight true.

Test and temptation are the same.

OLAADEGBU: You don't have to jump the gun here, what you need to do is to distinguish between actual and original sin. Let me ask you a few questions to buttress my point.

1. If babies are not sinners, as you have presumed, how could they die since death is a punishment for sin?

2. How could two sinful parents produce a sinless baby?

3. Do parents need to teach their babies how to be selfish and sinful?

4. Is sin part of their nature that is exhibited at an early age or not?

Answering these questions and more will give you a better understanding of the fact that even though a baby doesn't commit actual sins it is a sinner nevertheless because of the original sin. Their sinful flesh is part of them just as it is part of their parents'.



Christianity teaches that all mankind are sinners, inherently from Adam, individually by choice, and we are therefore subject to God's wrath and condemnation. Whether God could be angry on account of original sin or actual sin is another matter altogether.



The fact that man can show signs of goodness only backs up what the Bible teaches that man was originally created in the image of God even though that image has now been soiled by Adam's sin. We practically have Adam's image until we regain the full image of Christ by being born again.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned....Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life" (Romans 5:12, 18)

1. In your view plants and trees are sinners by the mere fact they died?! It is a ridiculous argument to accept that. Even the most gentle birds die.

2. How could two doctors have a lawyer as child?! People's actions and social roles are not part and parcel of their beings! Neither do they pass their actions per se to their children!

3. & 4. To believe there is a predisposed condition within a child, which distorts and removes the child's free will hence making him unable to act freely and rather towards sin, destroys the entire justification for punishment of sin!

Just as we can't punish a blind man, or punish an insane man because their conditions affect their decisions! And it would be unfair to punish people who are wired to sin, when they cannot help it!

Image123: That is reality, a product is a result of, related to. We see and face it all the time. People are responsible for other's actions and inactions. Malnutrition by a pregnant mother, and the product child might be responsible for his own deformities, blindness, lameness etc. Your laziness and sloth as a father, and your children will have o share in the punishment no doubt. They'll suffer hunger, poor health, bad schols, tarnished drems and visions etc and may even have a destroyed future. Yet the descendant made no decsion. It's same thing with gene pools, cross breeding, genotypes and blood groups, graftings etc.
We make the same fatal decisions many times over antime we choose to be independent of God or do not believe God. These was what Adam did basically.
Yep, God deliberately placed satan as an hurdle or test to be overcome. He did the same for Jesus Christ, i'm sure you know the story.

I'm sorry about my late replies.

We can agree that we are not responsible for Adam's actions neither did we influence his actions, yet we do suffer the consequences from his actions by the mere fact we are his descendants. In the same way a deformed baby suffers from his mother's negligence and drunkness, same way we suffer from our government's bad decisions, and sufferings from the actions of others.

And we yet have an idea of justice and fairness.

If God deliberately temps Adam, he did that with a foresight of Adam's reaction. Meaning God did approve the Fall of Creation.

Image123: It appears you've misunderstood me at some point. i did not say that we are actively consenting and involved in making decisions with our ancestors. i said we are jointly responsible. i gave two reasons, one we cannot deny or separate from our source, and two, we also make poor decisions too today.

Thought one hurdle should be glaring, the devil.

Responsibility is a consequence of freewill, whoever takes a decision is bound to the outcome and responsibility thereof. So also in the circumstance, if we descendants made no decisions affecting Adam and his fruits, how can any sense be made that we are responsible for his actions?!

Assuming we are all descendants of adam, would we all have made the exact fatal decision Adam made in spite of our freewill?

So you mean to say: God deliberately placed the Devil as a hurdle to tempt Adam and Eve?

[quote author=The Harbinger ~]no ma'am. I don't think genetics teaches us that.

Inbreeding would drastically increase the probably of gross genetic disorders.[/quote]Wouldn't all humans be products of inbreeding amongst Adam's kids?! And those kids wld have mated with other kids of Adam and Adam's grandkids wld have mated with other grandkids; the pool of inbreeding wld become polluted generation by generation with the same rate of entropy!

It is soo clear

^^
I'm not denying we are a source, rather is it reasonable to claim you are not just responsible for decisions your parents made, but involved and actively consented to such decisions?

What were the hurdles and hardships Adam and Eve were supposed to overcome?

OLAADEGBU: None. You haven't answered the offences of millions of unborn babies that are still being murdered today.

Good! Consider your own statement here

OLAADEGBU: God's grace is receiving what we don't deserve and God's mercy is not receiving what we deserve.

God is righteous and has justly sentenced man to death, so that we received the punishment we deserve. However, God exercised grace because of His love for us and took that punishment upon Himself as the payment for our sin.

God took pleasure in all of His creation (Revelation 4:11), but He loved people most of all. He uses the deterioration of the created universe to show us the consequence of our sin. If we did not experience the consequences of our rebellion against our Creator, we would never understand that we need salvation from our sin, and we would never receive His offer of mercy for our sin.

Most people easily recognise that there is a problem in the world. We need to realise that there is One who has overcome this problem of death and suffering, and this Person is Jesus Christ. AiG.

And consider this:

OLAADEGBU: Questions and objections:

"Ray. I feel sorry for you that you think your God of infinite love and wisdom could be so narrow-minded as to condemn two consenting adults to death for getting married. Your God seems to mirror your beliefs so perfectly always. That's convenient." Leonie Trent

Thank you for your sorrow. But I don't need it. You should rather have sorrow for yourself and others who are unsaved. God has condemned all of humanity to death and damnation (not just homosexuals). Perhaps you have noticed that ten out of ten die. But because He is rich in mercy He will grant everlasting life to all who repent and trust alone in Jesus. See www.needGod.com for details.

With all you have clearly said above, all of man without any prejudice is condemned, all of man is sin and that man is deservedly punished. Yet in a stark contradiction you claim babies are not sinners. Yet babies are not aliens but humans also.

Therefore your ideology about the sins of man is not just clearly wrong but contradictory and a ploy to justify unjustifiable suffering.

Christianity you have offered has nothing of substance but mere promises which do not go beyond what they are promises! The death and not so obvious resurrection do not self evidently prove its worth.

Also, man despite being wicked, selfish and self centered, can at times be duly sympathetic, and compassionate, can offer a helping hand, can be gracious and grateful, passionate. Thus Christianity does not show this bright side of man, rather indulges in promoting the dark aspects through which Christianity seeks relevance.

I believe any man can use freewill to sacrifice himself and wash entirely the sins of other men. So also redefine what is good and bad, therefore placing his freewill rightly above morals.

Oladeegbu

Yes both obama and the other woman are wrong, so back to my question: what are the sins/offences of day old babies?!

Image123: Its not an unreal world. Anyways, the world we live in is for examination. It is overcomers, people that are successful tfrom this world that will be in the coming world. i know there are people without the joy and peace, but they can have the joy and peace.

But God didn't plan that this world wld be one to be overcame, right?

We all are responsible. Its not just to pass the buck. Not only Adam is responsible. There are many avoidable sufferings that we bring on ourselves today, some through wrong decisions, some bad government and poor/insensitive governance etc. We all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

Yet can you claim you were involved in your parents' decisions prior to your birth?

OLAADEGBU: What offence/sin are millions of unborn babies guilty of?

Ok Obama is wrong, pls answer my question

Image123: God offers promises of a remedy, showing and telling that all is not lost, giving hope for now and for the future.
Suffering is a curse from God caused BY man. Suffering does not always come from God BTW but is permitted by God. Like i've said, God can use the suffering situation positively. Suffering is a consequence, not just a punishment. Like failure is a consequence of not planning or of unseriousness.
We can all have joy and peace in this life. There is never a reason to give up for anyone.
Our real lives are beyond this present, yet we can have real happiness here too. It only continues FOREVER in the afterlife.
We are jointly responsible for the fallen creation as we were in Adam when it occured, and we all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

The natural question arising is, why deal and struggle in an unreal world, when the real world of true values await. Yet there are people without this joy and peace you talk about.

Who is responsible for suffering in the world?

So your idea is that we formed some kind of consent while in Adam, therefore we deserve to endure the evils?! Can it be intelligeibly said that you were involved in all your father/ancestor's decisions prior to the time you were born? Is that practicable at all?!

Sadly, no one bothers to define what Freewill is.

Can one act contrary to his predestined act?

What offence/sin is a day born baby guilty of?

OLAADEGBU: Are you aware that any vow for human sacrifice apart from Christ is an abomination to God?

Tell again why Jesus'sacrifice was important? So also isn't there a rank? A sheep is more valuable than a pigeon, so also Jesus than any other man, doesn't it then follow that humans are more valuable than pigeons and sheep?!

How is God's mercy shown?

@image123

I used "now" to mean our present lives excluding reincarnated lives or afterlife.

From your post, it is understood that primarily Suffering is a curse from God with little uses such as refinement etc. Hecne suffering is a punishment for contravening deeds done.

For those whose suffering eclipse their joys and happiness, do you recommend the same medicine for them as people whose sufferings are far less than theirs? Can joy and happiness have any significant bearing in their lives when they are incapacitated to the extent they are unable to feel joy?!

Yet the hopes and promises are fuilfilable in another life, not here; suggesting that our real lives are somewhere beyond this present lives without the curse (heaven). Therefore this life cannot offer REal happiness, right?

How are/were you responsible for the Fallen Creation when it occurred prior o your birth?

Joshthefirst: man was good and has freewill. He chose to do evil. God is not the source of evil.

Only if freewill means ability to wish the impossible like God or his pure creation being the source of Evil

^^
But how can Good be the source of Evil, since man was good via God.

@joshthefirst

Since God is the ONLY creator and he is perfect/good, how then did evil/imperfection get into the world without another God?

maryam8080: Well the beauty of sex is not in its commercialization or exploitation but in its decency and sanctity.

Not as an act itself, right?

Joshthefirst: it would give hope and promise.
It would give salvation from the source of suffering and hope of complete remedy from the terrible effects of suffering itself

Yet hope and promise do not proffer any meaning to life, as they are not actuators rather prospective.

Note that in my previous posts in other threads, I have said the punishment for sins of Adam and other people are undeservedly visited on innocent people, so I ask now, who is responsible for such unjust arrangement?

EG in the case of Job, Sin was never a satisfactory answer.

Joshthefirst: those morals are part of Gods nature which is good.

He is obliged to keep his word, yes.

Good.

Now, if God's nature is good and creation is from God's nature, doesn't that imply Creation must be good also?

^ Questions none of you answered.

Neither did Oladegbu address them in his OP.

Joshthefirst: ^^^ why do you keep asking the same questions?

Do you want to know the solution God has given in this present world?

Come to him on his own terms. Own up to him and acknowledge who you really are before him.
Then ask him to answer your questions. And guide you into truth

Come, ma'am. Come and see.

Would that end the suffering?

Joshthefirst: lol. This is what happens when I read too much posts on nairaland.

There is absolute morality to which our consciences bear witness.
Sorry if the words carried a different meaning.
I should have quoted "human morals"

Is God obliged to follow such absolute morals too?

^^

Totally unsatisfactory.

Why does the loving God offer promises now? How do those promises solve the present issue of suffering? Are people who suffer from total disillusion with life, to abandon this life entirely and look forward to the afterlife? Since God has no present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life, shouldn't we all abandon this life too?

Of what use is the suffering to us? Does it empower us? Does it make us stronger? Was that the purpose God gave to suffering?

Why are we in a Fallen Creation? Who is responsible for the Fallen Creation? Why do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Is there any justice?

Joshthefirst: do you see a divine will in the universe?

God of course can be a psychological conditioning. But you can't speak this to those who encountered him and still walk with him and claim to know him and back up their claims with their lives.

Humans have been making up gods for some time.
But the bible( and indeed our very lives) teach and show that God, allowing humans to realize that they couldn't decipher his being and attributes psychologically, came down and walked among them. Showing his true character.

It is this God that I met. I never ascribed character or human morals to him. That would be an insult and me acting like an ordinary idol worshipper.

I met this God. But of course, you won't believe me.

Just like the people whom Jesus walked among didn't believe him when he claimed to be the one.

Human morals? So you now believe there is no absolute morality?

Isn't it obvious from DeepSight's threads and posts that he sees a divine will in the Universe because of the meaning it implies. In other words, Deepsight creates his God because of the meaning he seeks thereof.

Hence a psychological conditioning

Uyi Iredia: Reasons ? I recall giving reasons for my position. In anticipation, other goods don't create the same addiction in the widespread manner $€x and porn does: also good books eg school textbooks
don't corrupt pure, young minds.



. . . And violence and everything ugly, no ? The thing about liberterians is that it is not so much about being free with everything, that's irrational because freedom requires hindrance (analagous to the manner motion requires friction) to make sense: it's that they are LESS CONSERVATIVE. Kay 17 makes a remark on someone being conservative, I respond to that (given his, presumably liberal, views) by asking whether my love for violence will be allowed or allowed to to sell, and this ?!

Actually I was more involved with people who shared my view that sex is beautiful unlike you, who believe it is filthy ( of course with your own reasons).

@maryam8080 I wonder why you agree with Uyi iredia, that sex is filthy?!

Chomzy19: Hahahah OP your Title is contradictory on its own... If Evil confirms D absence OF God it also follows that Good Confirms his presence, since there is both evil n Good on earth, that means God exists and does not exist, does that make sense to u? Actually Evil CONFIRMS D PRESENCE OF D CREATOR, since d Creator created whatever is in existence both Good n Evil as we Humans call it


Secondly as Deepsight has rightly pointed out, What Makes u Believe that D creator Subscribes to whatever Notion of Good n Evil we humans subscribe to, the person who gave an example wit Rape, Of course as Human u won't allow A girl to b Raped cos u can't see beyond ur nose, U can't see Beyond d Immediate hurt, Fortunately D creator can, He doesn't see d Rape as Evil, he sees it as a stepping stone necessary for the Woman to Achieve Greatness, He won't prevent it, because without that Essential ingredient (rape) D gr8t Woman in d young girl will not manifest. We do not know D reason Y D creator does what he does, For all we know d creator created d Earth or d Entire world in general to simply Amuse himself


It is Folly for FINITE BEINGS to try to comprehend an INFINITE BEING, it is Even extreme Folly to assume to judge d CReator based on human considerations of Morality. "Good n Evil" which is even relative among humans

1. You didn't read or understand the OP, because if you understood what the OP said about Evil and its attendant results, and about the nature of God, you wouldn't say God is responsible for Evil. As Evil is directly contrary to God's nature itself. Therefore Evil cannot owe its origin to its antithesis ---> God's perfection and goodness.

2. Subjective morality?

Invariably Deepsight sees morality as a subjective entity.

Joshthefirst: during inbreeding, there is a higher probability of the two individuals having the same halves of imperfect genes(as they are siblings of the same immediate parents)

The probability of getting the same versions of imperfect genes from parents who are not closely related is lower. Much lower.

Good point!

However note that all human populations are from the same roots (Adam and Eve), even though you would argue that Adam and Eve have perfect genes, yet all their descendants ought to experience the same rates of entropy with the same extents as inbreeding

The fact we don't have that and the fact there is a great deal of diversity in homo sapiens, takes away credibility from Adam/Eve theory to human evolution.