₦airaland Forum

Hey, Oby, e be like say na trouble Lady run enter here. Don't worry, them no fit pursue u enter this place.

Huh?

My mum is getting better - thanks all for your prayers.

I am happy

hmmm

I just went through this post.

I have to ask. What is Church?

take it easy, there is a song coming to my mind, if you will know it "Leave it there 2ce take all your burdens to the Lord and leave it there,  " I can't remember all, but take it easy.

Thank you, I am definitely doing that. I am leaving it in the hands of God and asking him to direct my footsteps.

How have you been?

oh, Lady again online - E be like say 2day go better o. Lady I be greet o

ebos wassup? how mumsy dey? hope sey she de better?

Lady sweet! wir have you been?

Running around like a chicken with no head, lol.

Been going through a lot. Been in the religion forum, but really only visited the threads that would permit me to get my mind off my troubles.

You have it upside down. God is asking FIRST and MOST IMPORTANTLY for faith before you talk of works. Lazarus died a poor begger . . . where was his works? The thief on the cross . . . what works took him to paradise?

Works are not the ticket to eternity, it is simply an outward show of a regenerated heart. Its impossible for you to be saved and not show the fruits of the spirit which encompasses, showing love to your neighbors, sharing, comforting, ministering to the needs of others . . .

I am glad you finally understand what Catholics believe. You just summed it up yourself here. Thanks.
Now apply this same notion to penance. It is impossible for you to repent and not show the fruits of your repentance which encompasses, showing love to your neighbours, sharing, comforting, ministering to the needs of others, if you stole something, returning it, if you killed someone accept responsiblity and turn yourself in to the authorites (police), make right your wrong. Show that you have truly repented.

On purgatory, man I don't know what to say to you especially after you told me that hell and paradise were on the same plane back then. I just don't understand how it God decided to recreate what he told us he created already.

You still didn't answer my question about where Christ is. Going by your example that you gave. You said that Paradise and hell were on the same plane, and you put a stamp on it by reminding me that Jesus said that the thief will be in Paradise with him (Jesus) so I ask, is Jesus in Paradise or in heaven? I would really appreciate a straightforward answer of. For example: Jesus is in Paradise or Jesus is in heaven.
Thanks.

UMMM SACRILEGE?

For what? Because she's a pastor's daughter? hisssssssss


It is wrong to kidnapp anyone, period.

I pray she returns home safely.

Hi guys.
How are you all?

@Mukina2

I did read your post and I know what you were referring to. I read the posts leading up to your posts (yours and Frizy's)

@Babs

I do know that some muslim posts have been deleted, but honestly let's face it, more Christian posts have been deleted even those that were not off topic. I do remember a post of mine that was definitely not off topic. I asked questions pertaining to Islam (which is what people should do about Christianity or Islam or anything else) and before I knew it my questions were deleted, I never received answers. But I do know quite a lot of questions that have been asked about Christianity that have been off topic, were very insulting, but never got deleted.

Then this forum for Muslims alone.

I mean seriously, what's the purpose of the religion forum, if there will be seclusions on groups.
Why wasn't one started for the Catholics?
Why wasn't one started for the atheists?
Why wasn't one started for the buddhists?
Why wasn't one started for the Protestant Christians?
Why wasn't one started for the hindus?

Seriously there's a lot of biasness and I am not the only one.

There should be equality for everyone.

The religion section was created for just that religion, it was supposed to cover all religions, but now we have a special one for muslims. Well I am a Catholic and I am awaiting the Catholics only forum.

I would like to have discussions with my fellow Catholics about our belief, without interruptions, if anyone interrupts, then their posts should be deleted.

When the forum for Catholics is created then I won't be bothered by this anymore.
When the forum for Atheists is created then I won't be bothered by this anymore.
When the forum for each belief is created then I won't be bothered by this anymore.
Until then it still remains an injustice to all.


I know that mukina2 isn't the only one in power, yes Seun has his power and he is equally biased. You can't create a separate forum for one religion and forget about the others.
That is not equality.

By the way babs your post on Trinity is offensive, whether you understand it or not.
You can have your belief of the trinity all you want but it still remains one God in three forms. He presented himself to us in three forms. When Christ speaks of God being one he does not speak out of context and does not contradict the Trinity. When he speaks of God being in three forms, he doesn't speak out of context. These verses support each other, one gives a topic and the other one defines or elaborates more on it. Reading only that one passage and running with it is what I call misinterpretation and misunderstanding. When you quote Jesus finding himself inferior to God you don't dismiss the Trinity concept. If you understand the purpose of Jesus then you will understand how it is he is equal with the father.
When Christ asks us to baptise in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, he shows us the equality in it, this was not a teaching of Paul. This happened before Paul came into the picture, but muslims are quick to jump and say that it is Paul's teaching. Don't forget Christ was crucified before Paul came to be his apostle, and the reason he was crucified is because of his teaching on the Trinity concept. So that nullifies whatever claim that muslims have that Christ didn't preach it and that it was Paul's doing. The Jews know why Christ was crucified and just like the muslims they didn't accept the Trinity concept and didn't understand it so they called Christ a blasphemer for it and therefore asked for his crucifixion. If Christ preached what the muslims preach today, he wouldn't have been crucified, because the muslims believe pretty much what the Jews believe only the muslims to validate themselves say that the Jews corrupted the scriptures.
So the preaching on the Trinity is exactly what Jesus preached. If you understand his purpose and the Trinity concept you will see that the passages that show that Christ exalts the Father does not in any way nullify the Trinity concept, but proves it.
First you must understand the Trinity concept. If you really want to know more about it, I suggest you consult the Catholics, but not just any one someone who has done the study of it. Who knows about the trinity. Your best bet will be with a Catholic Priest, Bishop, well those who devote their life to the "study of God", those who devote their time to the history of the religion, those who devote their time to God himself. Those who have nothing else to do but be submissive to God and his people. I have found that even the protestants don't understand what it is they believe.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

Ok now I am trying to understand is this supposed to make Catholics cringe or what?
Is this supposed to say that we don't believe in faith?
You can't use our own beliefs to counter us, come up with something better?

You can take the 1st yr exam from now till next yr, if u don't pass the common entrance you will never be a bonafide student.

Wow you just said what we've been trying to say all along.
Catholics don't make faith less important and we are not saying that works without faith is even anything. We are saying that works of the faith is what God is asking us for. What good will it be to tell me sister eat well and you provide me not with food. What am I supposed to eat well? my hands, my flesh? That's what God is talking about. Have faith in him, but honestly doing works in that faith is what he askes of us.

When walking to church you come across a beggar, what should you do? Walk past him and tell yourself all I need to do is have faith in God to get to heaven? Or give him some money to buy food or clothes and tell him about Christ and then head to church or beter yet, take him to church with you?
If you choose the first, then you have dead faith, if you choose the second then you have living faith.

- The catholic church is a bible-misquoting sect . . . (Mary worship, penance, purgatory).

Mary is not worshipped. Get to understand that. Repeating this only shows your lackof intellect. That after so many times of engaging Catholics you still think we worship Mary, I feel sorry for you.

Penance is not a misquote and neither is purgatory.
These two concepts did not even originate in the Church it has always been there even in the Old Testament. God did not re create the heavens, earth, and hell all over again. He didn't say well for this period of time I'll have hell and paradise in the same plane and then separate it later. He didn't start creation all over again.

Paul is evidently also speaking about the gospels, his own letters and that of the other apostles to the churches. So we cannot exclude the NT.

How could he when the NT as we know it didn't exist at that time? Did he know that his letter to Timothy will be counted as scripture? How did he know this? There were other letters written after that so how did he speak of those letters? Was Paul prophecying here?

The word "trinity" is an english word. English was not in existence 2000yrs ago so we don't expect to find "trinity" in the bible.
The concept trinity claims to describe is one that is readily found in the scriptures.

Then how do you expect to find the word Purgatory or penance in the Bible. If you will denounce their concept, denounce the concept of Trinity. The Bible that you read is in english, stop reading it and pick up the Bible that has the original languages of each book of the Bible.

kindly tell us why NO ONE in the bible mentioned Mary as the "ark of the covenant".

Because it is not all about her. She does not want to take away her sons shine. It is not through her that we are saved. She is not God.
But she is called blessed and all nations will call her blessed.

Kindly tell us where the covenant was housed? Kindly tell us why No one mentioned the Trinity. Don't give me the concept crap, you can't accept on concept and deny the others.

Kindly show us where Paul and Peter preached about penance.

It has already been shown to you many many times. To do penance is to show evidence of repentance (John the Baptist already laid this out) To disregard this scripture you are saying that all scripture is not equal. Just because Peter and Paul did not say "penance" does not mean that they didn't preach it. There is a reason why penance was known and practiced by the early Christians, it is because it was preached, same thing with confession. Peter and Paul themselves did penance when they repented of their sins. Peter denied Christ three times, in showing repentance after Christ's resurrection he affirmed Christ three times. In doing penance you are showing repentance. It goes hand in hand. You don't just say Lord I am sorry, you show the Lord that you are truly sorry. God is not a fool.

Kindly tell me why purgatory also has a fire of torment if it isnt the same as hell.

There are firey torments on earth, does that mean that earth is hell?

Kindly tell me why confession is made to priests when the apostles of the bible CLEARLY talked about praying (not forgiving) for their brothers with faults.

The apostles need not say it. Christ himself already did when he breathed on the disciples and told them that whose sins they forgive is forgiven and whose sins they do not forgive is not forgiven. I honestly don't know what could be clearer than that.

Kindly tell us why your own special "Christ" asks you to PAY FOR YOUR SINS in purgatory when Jesus Christ went to the cross and claimed "it is finished".

This is your own misinterpretation of purgatory. You do not pray for your sins in purgatory, those living do that, that is why we are charged to pray for the dead. I already gave you Bible verses from the Old and New Testament that prove this clear as day.
I wonder why people pray for the dead. Why pray for them if they are going to be judged immediately and are going to either hell or heaven?

Yup you spoke of paradise. You even mentioned that there's hell, then paradise, then heaven. You gave an example of the thief on the cross and Jesus telling him that on that day he will be in paradise with him. So dear, if Paradise is different from heaven, where is Jesus? Heaven or paradise?

Madam, it is not enough to accuse others of contradictions, it is not enough to deceitfully accuse others of misinterpretations when you run out of gas. Kindly show us all the above in the bible since you claim it isnt contradictory . . .

and please don't use imhotep's usual escape route - 'Sola scriptura'

Ahh you have truly offended me, when have you ever known me to run our of gas when it comes to defending my faith.

When have you ever known me to resort to Imhotep's way of proving things to you.

I still have more to say, adn I will be back. I would appreciate it if you wait until I finish responding to you before you comment

Who said religion in marriage aint that important?? huhhhh who? Will your catholic sweetheart stand it when you speak in tongues or start goin wild with the anointing of the holyspirit??
okay so tell me. Do Catholics worship Jesus or Mary?

Catholics believe in speaking in tongues too, we just believe that there should be an interpretation for it as directed in the Bible, all else is just gibberish. Trust me I have spoken in tongues in a Church and it's been gibberish. I had no idea what I was saying, I started speaking because the pastor kept pushing my head and screaming at me "Speak, Speak" so I started speaking and he was all "Oh praise the Lord" When I read the passage pertaining to speaking in tongues, I thought back to that day, and now I laugh because Pastor had no idea what he was doing.

I feel bad, because I know that there are people, even in the Pentecostal Church, that speak in the Spirit, but believe me, it's not everybody. What you say needs to be understood by someone in there.

I would really like someone to point out to me how it is that Catholics worship Mary. Giving honour is not worship o, thanks.
Mary is not God and shouldn't be worshipped and anyone who does is definitely not a Catholic. Forgive us for saying good job to the woman who said yes to God. Forgive us for viewing her a virtuous woman, forgive us for viewing her as the mother of our saviour. Forgive us for saying thank you for saying yes and trusting in God. Forgive us for saying good job sticking with your son at his birth, at his dedication, at the begininnig of his ministry, at the bottom of the cross when he died, in the room when the Holy Spirit descended upon everyone. Forgive us for applauding her for not freaking out when the angel appeared to her at the age of 16. How many of you will even stay in the room and listen? I can assure you I will be scared and probably soil my pants (yeah too much info, but it's the truth)

Forgive us for giving the woman a little bit of credit.

Any woman, mostly mothers who do not have reverence for Mary should hide her face in shame. How would you feel if your child died for a crime he did not commit?

Catholics look at the whole picture when understanding God, we don't just pick one passage run with it and contradict ourselves with the other. All scripture work together, some explain in greater detail. One may state something and the other explains it and gives examples of it. It does not contradict itself, but the interpretations by those who know it all can be contradictory. There are those who don't even want to see the bigger picture and turn a blind eye to it. There are those who don't understand that Christ spoke in parables a lot and can't understand the parables. They interpret the parables literally (lol, good luck).

Catholics also know why it is things are done a certain way. Catholics do things and know why they do it.

My babe is a Pentecostal, I asked him what Pentecost is. In all seriousness he proceeds to tell me, only to tell me that Pentecost is a church and what they do is they praise God and speak in tongues. I still haven't stopped laughing till today. He always looked down on the Catholic church and say we don't worship God. Well I say he doesn't know the God that he worships and doesn't know why it is he does what he does to worship God.

@Topic

There isn't much of a difference in Pentecostal and Catholic, one is just a bit subdued and the other hyper. Just like the personalities of a couple can compliment each other well, one may be relaxed the other may be loud, but they love each other and make it work.

The Lord na my shephard, i dey kampe. 2. E make me sidon for where betta dey flow and come put me next to stream make mai bodi thermacool. 3. E panel beat mai soul come spray am white, come dey lead me dey go through express road of righteousness sake of Hin name. 4. Walahi !, if I waka pass where arm robber, 419 and juju people boku, come even join okada reach valley of the shadow of death sef, mai bodi dey inside cloth. Your rod and staff nko ? Na so them dey like back bone dey comfort me. 5. You don prepare Egusi and Pounded yam make I chop. All mai enemies dey look waa waa. You rub me for head wit vaseline intensive lotion. mai cup na River Niger wey overflow hin bank. 6. True true, betta life and mercy go gum mai back till I quench. And man pikin go tanda gidigba!

This is so delightful, the first time I read it, I couldn't help but laugh

I am sorry i have had to EDIT the initial post, i read it again and felt it was a bit mis-leading and sending the wrong message. it is not my intention here to re-define the concept of being born again ( of which i am one) i am only striving to have a better understanding of the term because i beleive the explaination we have of it in church is incomplete. I mean the church is silent on the part of being born of water. Answers any one

Hello Kunle

Maybe I am a bit lost, and I don't know if I am the only one who had this question in mind, but would you kindly clarify for me what the Church's stand on being born again is?

No No Frizy you have gone alllll the way, my post didnt get to that extent, yeah we do have fanatics among ourselves, even in other religions, unfortunately those few misinterpret sharia badly!

The only way you can prove your religion is by answering questions and not deleting them. If the person does not interpret Sharia badly then there would be no need for them to ask a question. They would ahve an understanding of it.

Now I do take offense to your statement about misinterpretations. As the moderator for the religion section you do not delete the muuslims comments about Christians and trust me the Christianity concepts are interpreted terribly by muuslims. For example the Trinity concept, we have said times without number that the concept does not introduce three different and distinct gods, but one God who came in different forms, as he is very much capable of because he is God. But even in the introduction of this post, Olabowale misinterprets the concept as three separate and distinct gods, and you do not find that offensive enough to be removed? Yet you find it offensive enough to remove the post that misinterprets Sharia. If so go ahead and delete the introductory post by Olabowale because it is offensive to Christians and whenever a muuslim interprets the Bible or other Christian concepts badly, then please delete them. If you are going to be biased, which you are based on your statement, then you shouldn't be the moderator. If you do wish to continue as the moderator then please don't shield muuslims, but everyone. This is a public forum not a "protect the muuslims" forum.
The Catholics are consistently bashed all the time by others and yes muuslims too, but you do not run to their aid. You do not create a separate forum for them.

Just wanted to speak the truth.

It truly amazes me how someone who claims the Bible to be the word of God uses it to contradict the itself.
The Bible is not contradictory, your misinterpretation of it is.

The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that <
, was thirsty, they presented with their bread him that fled.

Verse 15: For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword and
from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of the war.

hmm this is fishhy. In verse 14 it was him, in verse 15 it changed to they.

well here is the actual prophecy

13In the thicket in th enomad country spend the night, O caravans of Dedanites.
14Meet the thirsty, bring htem water; you who dwell in the Land of Tema, greet the fugitives with bread
15 They flee from th sword, from the whetted sword; From the taut bow, from the fury of battle.
16 For thus says the Lord to me In another year, like those of a hierling, all the glory of Kedar shall come to an end.
17 Few of Kedar's stalwart archers shall remain, for the Lord, the God of Isreal, has spoken

At last get the prophecy right.

[b][/b]Commencing with the Burgundian Crusades of 1017, the precursors of the more notorious crusades to the east, the Christians began to make significant inroads into the Iberian peninsula. The taking of Barbastro in 1064, in which thousands of Muslims were slaughtered immediately upon a long siege having been lifted after the two sides had signed a peace treaty, set off a grim pattern for the reconquest of Andalusia by the Christians:

1017 is still after muuslims provoked the Christians.

My point still remains the muslims started it all

Read it properly without catholic lenses. That passage does not say what you read into it.
Hebrews 9:17 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Are you sure about that. Go and check again and make sure that this is what Hebrews9:17 says.

This is what it says in my Bible

17 For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive

So just to put all conspiracy theories to silence, I checked with the protestant Bible (The King James Version)

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This is talking about the sacrifice of Jesus.

Did Christ descend to purgatory? No because the bible is clear that Abraham and all the other dead old testament fathers went to paradise. But as at that time paradise was on the same plane with hell . . . how do i know? Remember the parable of Lazarus? If paradise = heaven then how did the rich man see Abraham since he could not have been in hell?

You have got to be kidding me, you're using parables in the literal sense. The Rich man was not in hell, he was in the netherworld. Maybe we should visit the word that was used in describing "hell" here. It is sheol, the word meaning hades, hades being a place where souls stay until the end time.
So basically what you're saying is that people could go to paradise, but couldn't go to heaven, but could go to hell.
hmmm, that is a very interesting view of it.
The Old testament fathers went to paradise and everybody else went to hell. So then they should be there for all eternity, there's no getting out of hell then. So why did Christ descend to release people if they couldn't be released?
hmmm that is a thought.

Why did not the other thief go to purgatory too?

Who's to say he didn't?

By the way purgatory is for those saved by grace.

i missed this earlier. You have simply behaved like the muuslims, grabbed hold of one verse without reading it in the context of the others.
Read verse 19 AND 20. Who are the spirits in question?

Verse 20 makes it clear it was to those before the flood . . . there were no prophets then to warn them, they had no opportunity for salvation, they had no 10 commandments, these people had nothing.

No sir the interpretation you just gave is the same that I have. I know that these were the ones before the flood and that is exactly my point. That after so many centuries these people were still saved. Now how is it that they could have been saved? If they were in hell they couldn't have been able to get out. Hell is eternal damnation and there's no turning back. According to how you're putting it. But your're also saying that "at that time" hell was on the same plane with paradise. So God wasn't done creating this universe when he was done and rested? He made changes to it? HE made shifts to the planes?

Wow there were no prophets to warn them, yet there was a man who found favour with God. How then could they discern good from bad, I wonder?
What about with Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, how then could they have been favorable in the sight of God?
Abraham didn't have a prophet, neither did Isaac and Jacob, the 10 commandments didn't come in to play until many centuries later. The first"prophet" would then be Moses. How then did those before him find salvation? We know that they did. But judging from your view of how the "planes" were in "that time" It means that these ones that were saved shouldn't have been saved because they went to hell and the fathers went to paradise.
So since they were in a more far off time than Lazarus and the Rich man in the parable, they should have been able to see Abraham too or Adam and not be able to cross over or be "saved" or "purified" or "purged." How then could they have been freed by Christ?

NOW that we have the opportunity the cross gives us, that chance is no longer available to us. Please read your bibles very carefully . . . Christ and the new testament apostles were very clear . . . there is no chance for a man who dies a sinner. If they new about purgatory it is shocking that not one mention of it is made in all their writings.

It is man, you ust choose to interpret it as "planes"

Where please? Honest . . . i am actually in search of someone to prove me wrong this time.

I will only do my best to show you where it is. The word purgatory may not be in the Bible, but the concept of it is.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

This passage implies that there are some sins which are forgiven in the next world. Where is this next world? (I am seriously asking you here)

Jesus' descent to free those in bondage, where was this?
It couldn't be "hell" as we know it, because as we know when you go to hell there is no way out. If all the sins are "purged" while we're on earth, there wouldn't be need for Christ to descend.

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 peter 3:18-20

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things
Ephesians 4:8-10


29Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 1 Corinthians 15:29


1Corinthians 3:13-15
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one's work.----fire can destroy and also purify
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, taht person will receive a wage
15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire
In this Paul talks about the works of each man. each work will be checked by fire. If the work passes the test, the person will be rewarded. If the work does not pass the test, it will be punished, but Paul goes on and offers hope for the person whose work is burned up, that the person will be saved, but only through the fire, the fire here is purgatory.

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
In Matt 5:26 Jesus talks about a place from which you wouldn't be released until you paid everything you owe

Matthew 18:34-35
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Jesus, talking about the unforgiving debtor, said he would be tortured until his debt was paid. Jesus then said the Father would do the same to us.

Where is this place we will be in until we have paid our last farthing? A place we must stay until our debt is completely paid. We know it can't be hell because no matter how much we pay there is no escape or pardon. It can't be heaven because Scripture tells us nothing defiled can enter heaven.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Something we all should be aware of is that Scripture says we defile ourselves with "idle words.” Now don't confuse an idle word with a useless word. The biblical definition of an idle word is a malicious assertion or calumny. I thought I should mention this because at times many of us sow our words in the fields of gossip and calumny

Matthew 12:36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Place yourself in the following scenarios. You are a Christian according to any Church's standards. You are walking the Christian walk daily but in a moment of weakness you make a malicious statement against someone. You want to repent and plan to do so at your evening devotions but before you can ask God's forgiveness you are killed in a car accident. Would true justice require an eternity in hell?

An opportunity arises to help someone. To do a good work. Perhaps give to a charity, perhaps change a flat tire for some old lady. You get the idea. The epistle of James says neglecting these good works would be a sin for the Christian.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

For a sin of omission are people doomed to spend eternity in hell? The examples given are sins committed by people who were Christians in every sense of the word. These people are probably guilty of only venial sins. All their lives they had tried to live for God. Don't the Scriptures teach that such people reap eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

Would the all just God determine that these people spend eternity in hell? This seems like a mockery of justice. The kind of justice dispensed by courts on earth. But even with the corrupt courts we have, would a person with a parking ticket and a murderer both be sentenced to death? Of course not! Then how can we accuse the Omnipotent, All Just God of dispensing such justice?

Job 8:3-4
Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?

Catholics believe sins are classified into two categories. The first category is called mortal sin. Mortal comes from the word mortis in Latin which means death. It is so called because Catholics believe if you die without having repented of mortal sin you will go to hell, the second death.

The second category of sin is referred to as venial sin. Venial comes from the Latin word venialis which means pardonable. The Scripture below supports this position that there are varying degrees of sin and the quotes from the Early Church Fathers at the end of this section show that this is what the early Church taught and believed.

1 John 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


Many private revelations to saints have shown Purgatory to be a place where sin is purged by fire. Even though Catholics are not required to accept or believe private revelations a glance at the Old Testament shows that these revelations may have a basis. We see Isaiah’s sin purged by a live coal.

Isaiah 6:5-7
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

2Maccabees 12: 43-46
43 , In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death
45 Bt if he did this with a viw to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that ehy might be freed from sin.

I was skeptical about putting in maccabees there since your Bible does not have it and you don't consider it to be scripture, but I do consider it to be scripture. Why? because the criteria used by the Jews to eliminate these books don't show that the books were not inspired. These books were hels as scripture up until a few centuries before Jesus Christ. These works also don't contradict the law of Moses and are in accordance with the sayings of Jesus Christ. Which leads me to believe that he quoted from these books



The protestants are not too keen on praying for the dead either, but it still amazes me why prayers are still offered at non-Catholic funerals. I wonder why the prayers are needed.

We are all called to perfection and holiness. Our mission on this earth is to become as much like Jesus as we can. Well even in my walk I know I do fall and have to seek God's face, but there are those who die before they get on their knees and ask for forgiveness. I know I have been put in that position. I had an accident and honestly I didn't see it coming, it was so fatal taht people thought I died on impact, when they saw me come out they were shocked. I thank God, but I also thank God for purgatory because Lod knows that as an imperfect person, I hadn't asked for forgiveness, and I'm not talking about going to confession. I was in a rush and had many things on my mind, seeking forgiveness for a sin in the car was the farthest thing from my mind. That's why we have Purgatory. It is more like a place to clean up before seeing God. Oh, sure we will experience pain for our sins to the point we will weep because we shall see how our sins appear to God. But we have this to look forward to:

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



Wait a minute I didn't even define purgatory for you. Purgatory is is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
As in the Catechism: All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal slavation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


I hope you don't have it in mind that the Church teaches that everyone goes through purgatory. That would say that Christ's death is meaningless. It only teaches that those who die through the grace of Christ but still have imperfections from sin will undergo a purification process.

Confession to whom? Again please show me in the bible please.

Confession to one another as in James5: 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another
Forgive me for taking my confession very seriously and not just picking a random Emeka from the streets and asking for prayers, just like I won't pick any random Emeka from the street to perform my marital rites or my funeral rites or my baptismal rites. If you feel anyone can do it then so be it for you, but for me confession is very serious.

Again please show me in the bible please. I'm begging at this point.

I won't make the same mistake twice, so let me first define penance for you.
Penance- consecration of a Christian sinner's personal and ecclesial steps of conversion. Acts of reconciliation. Contrition, showing that you mean your repentance rather than saying I won't do it again, evidence of repentance

But it is without use if first you do not do an internal penance, it urges the expression in visible signs
Isaiah 1:16-17 Wash yourselves clean! Put away your misdeeds from before my eyes; cease doing evil; learn to do good. Make justice your aim: redress the wronged, hear the orphan's plea, defend the widow.

Joel 1: 13
Gird yourselves and weep, O priests! wail O ministers of the altar! Come spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God!
The house of your God is deprived of offering and libation.

Joel 2:12-13
Yet even now, says the Lord, return to me with your whole ehart, with fasting, and weeping, and mourning
Rend your hearts, not your garments, and return to the Lord, your God. For gracious and merciful is he, slow to anger, rich in kindness, and relenting in punishment.

Matthew 6:1-6
But take care not to perform ighteos deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.
When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as in the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Ame, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your ight is doing
so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you
When you pray do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward
But when you pray go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

Matthew 3: 7-9
When he saw many Pharisees and Saducees comng to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father"

But in Luke you will see that this goes further

Luke 10
And the crowd asked him, "What then should we do?" He said to them in reply, "Whoever has two cloaks should share with the person who has none. And whoever has food should do likewise."


While writing this, I decided to look up protestant view on the issue and I see that they actually have the meaning of the sacrament of penance wrong. I came across one that states that forgiveness does not come by penance but through repentance. That's when I finally understood the protestant. I now understand that they think that penance is different from repentance.

Penance supports repentance just like works supports faith. Basically show evidence of it. Don't just say o Father forgive me, but show that you mean that you are sorry for your sins. This is penance. Remember Christ says "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I wil declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me you evildoers."

Rather Christ says that we should build our house on the rock. "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on themwill be like a wise man who built his house on the rock."

Those who don't their house will be blown away "Everyone who listens to this words of mine and does not act on them will be like the fool who built his house on sand."

I guess this leads to the faith issue, where protestants think that Catholics don't believe that slavation is by faith. But rather that salvation is by faith with works.

Yes indeed the Bible states that salvation is by faith in Christ, alone. Catholics agree with this. It is not by our might or our works that we receive salvation, but by our faith in Christ. Salvation is not just doing a good work and then not believing in God, that is atheism. Catholics are not atheists. But rather we decide to be not only hearers of the word but also doers of it.

James 1:22

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he loked like. But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

I really think that the last sentence describes the faith with works perfectly. While maintaing that Christ is the messiah and saviour of the world and the Son of God and reigns in unity with the Father and Holy Spirit, a person also does the work.
A person also feeds the hungry, shelter the homeless, doing works to prove repentance and much more. Doing good works, but also maintaining faith. This is what Catholics believe.

We do not believe that salvation is simply by going to work or just giving money to the person on the street without believing in God and in Christ. If this is true then the muuslims and atheists will find the easy way to heaven. Catholics don't hold that belief.

Ofcourse there is the penalty for just having faith and not showing it or acting upon it, a person who does this has this to look forward to

Matt 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
25:33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
25:36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
25:38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
25:39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
25:40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
25:43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
25:45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

its "GODLINESS" ma'am . . . not mere religion.

1Timothy 6:6 Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain.
Same thing. We're talking about the belief in God and walking in faith. Religion here is godliness. Same thing.

u're deliberately getting things muddled up . . . the crusades (with the ORIGINAL goal being to re-capture jerusalem from muuslim invaders) is what i supported. The persecution of the protestant church (erroneously and dubiously also couched as part of the "crusades" is what i do not support. I hope that is crystal clear as it is distressing to see you actively trying to push a lie into my posts.

No I am not. In one instance you mention the crusades as something good but later on you go on to say that the Church's motive for the crusades was to protect herself. Do you even know what "The Church" is and always has been, Despite the sins of men?
That is what you are speaking against. For as long as Christ gave us authority you speak against his body. "The Church" is taken very seriously, where you might view it as a denomination I along with other Catholics view it as the body of Christ, even with our imperfections. We still work together to get the job and done, and seek God's help to weed the evil ones. Thank God they come to light and can be dealt with. We still stay the course of keeping true to what was requested by Christ that we are one. No he didnt mean the different denomintaions that we have today. Infact there were to be no denominations. There were no denominations until the protestant decided to start naming themselves "Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Presbyters, and much much much more" The Church was to be one, the Church was to be holy, the Church yes was to be Catholic (Universal). without limitations in language and geography and more, yet meditating on the same mysteries of Christ, having one belief.

You mention the crusades in its original form, the crusades ended in 1291, the protestants didn't "protest" until the 15th century and then Luther bringing out to the open. The Church protected the Bible as you know it today, the doctrines that you have adopted (Trinity) and your Church history.

I need not plant anything, it is very evident what you say and how you contradict yourself.

Again let me not bother to argue here . . . kindly show me where this is EXPLICITLY spoken of in the bible.
There was an ark of the covenant in the old testament . . . Mary certainly wasnt born then . . . but maybe you know something i don't. I'm waiting.

Yes I do know something that you do not. Jesus the New Covenant, Mary his dwelling, hence Mary the Ark of the covenant. Or do we say that she didn't give birth to him and that he did not dwell in her?
God found her worthy to dwell in her, just as he dwelt in the Wood that made up the ark.

You can better understand the Catholic relationship to Mary if you look at the Israelite's relationship to the Ark of the Covenant. The Israelites did not worship the Ark but they treated it with incredible reverence. They knew that God used it powerfully and they brought it into battle (Jos. 6:3-4). The Lord punished those who did not have utmost respect for it (1 Chr. 13:10-11) and blessed those who took it into their care (1 Chr. 13:14). We don't think that it is a coincidence that the new Ark of the Covenant, Mary, is introduced into the heavenly battle against Satan in the book of Revelation. It is not because of any power that she gets on her own, but by the power she is given by Jesus her Son.

Revelations 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, and earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
Revelations 12:1 A great sing appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth
3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, an don its head were seven didems
4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down o the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne
6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care o for twelve hundred and sixty days.

Well let's visit this here. Who was destined to rule all the earth ? oh yes that's right, the messiah. Who's the messiah? Jesus Christ. Who's Christ's mother? Mary.
The Ark of the Covenant disappears in Jer 3:16. The Ark of the Covenant resurfaces in Revelation 11:19 as the woman who bore the King of the Israelites who is the mother of all those who follow the lamb. The devil makes war on all her children who have the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17) God was quite clear about who the woman was in the passage. It was Mary.

The Ark carried the Word of God. Mary carried the Word of God made flesh when she was pregnant with him. The Ark of the Covenant first disappeared in 1 Sam 4:11 when the Philistines overtook Israel. But it was returned to the Israelites after it became a curse to those who did not believe in the One True God. (1 Sam 6:4) This tells us that the Ark has a propensity to turn up after it is captured. It disappeared again, during the Babylonian conquest around 600 B.C. never to be seen again to this day.

Catholics believe it did come back again, just as it did the first time it was lost. Originally the Ark of the Covenant contained the word of God etched on stone by God's own hand. The Ark was not the Word itself but it was nevertheless very important. Mary carried the "word made flesh" inside her the same way the Ark carried the 10 commandments which were the Word of God manifest in the real word. (Jn 1:1) The Ark turns up in Revelation 11:19. It is presented as Mary, the mother of Jesus.

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. 12 :1 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne, 13 So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent . Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

Some Evangelicals have suggested that woman crowned with stars in this passage is Israel and that the 12 stars represent the tribes of Israel. They say the woman is not Mary. The problem with this interpretation is that the passage clearly says her children are those who "hold the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17) which the children of Israel clearly have not done, but the children of Mary surely have. Catholics believe this started with John at the foot of the cross when Jesus presented Mary to him as his mother. (Jn 19:26)

Catholics believe this passage of Revelation makes clear several important points:

The Ark of the Covenant has been restored to the temple
The temple is now heaven (See also Heb 9:1-12)
A woman with a crown is there - the new Ark
She gave birth to the son who will rule the nations and is at God's throne
The devil is very interested in destroying her but she is safe
Her children are all faithful Christians.
If Jesus is the Word made flesh, then we could consider Mary as the Ark made flesh.

Let us now compare the Ark of the covenant in the old testament to Mary, who Catholics believe is the new Ark.

The Ark of the Old Testament
Mary - The New Testament
Ark of the New Covenant

The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex 25:10)
The Word became Flesh (John 1)

The Ark carried the Word of God (Deut 10:1) The Ark carried the Old Covenant.
Mary carried the Word of God (Lk 2:38) Mary carried the New Covenant

David says "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam 6:9)
Elizabeth says "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Lk 1:43) (Mary, was pregnant with Jesus)

When the Ark returned "David was leaping and dancing before the Lord" (2 Sam 6:14) The baby leaped for joy in Elizabeth's womb when Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying Jesus in her womb. (Lk 2 38)

There I have set the ark in which is the covenant of the Lord that he made with his people Israel (2Ch 6:11)
Jesus is the new Covenant and he is in Mary's womb, which makes Mary the ark of the New Covenant.
Elizabeth's husband Zachariah said "He has remembered his holy covenant (Lk 1:72) , The cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood (Lk 22:20)

Joshua summoned the twelve men from the Israelite, whom he had appointed, one from each tribe. Joshua said to them "Pass on before the ark of the Lord your God." (Josh 4:4) There were 12 stones like the 12 stars in Rev,
The ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; , 12 :1 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman , and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Rev 11:19) representing the tribes of Israel.

In Joshua Chapter 6, the Israelites circle Jericho with the Ark of the Covenant and blowing horns for seven days before their victory. In Revelation Chapter 8-11 before the introduction the Ark of the covenant (Chapter 12) the angels blow seven trumpets to herald the victory over Satan.

The Ark of the Lord is a blessing to the house (2 Sam 6:11) Mary goes into the hills and blesses Elizabeth's house (Lk 2 38)

The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13) Mary is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Mat 2:14)

The Ark disappears (Jer 3:16) never to return until the New Testament Revelation story The Ark reappears as a lady who bears a son who is seated at the right hand of God . Her children are Christians. (Rev 11:19)

It will not be like the covenant that I made, that they broke though I was their husband (Jer 31:31) The Holy Spirit shall overshadow you; therefore the son to be born to you , will be called the Son of God (Lk 1:35) (The Holy Spirit was Mary's spouse)

Catholics believe that their relationship to Mary is very biblical. They feel it would be unbiblical to ignore her place in Scripture. Many Evangelicals say that Mary's ministry and purpose ended with the birth of Christ. If that was so why would the devil be so interested in destroying her after the birth of Jesus. Catholics believe the passage identifies Mary as the rediscovered Ark of the Covenant. Now the Ark is in heaven. It has been found. It is Mary. The passage of Revelation describes the woman in heaven with a crown of 12 stars as the mother of Jesus (not a pagan goddess). She is presented as a very important player, not only because she gave birth to the Saviour but also because she will continue to play an ongoing role in service to him in the spiritual battle with Satan and his evil angels. The passage also says all those who hold the testimony of Jesus are her children. That includes Christians of all denominations. They are all her children. This is why Catholics don't think it would be right to abandon Mary simply for the sake of Christian unity. Mary just too important. Catholics wouldn't give up Mary any more than the ancient Jews would be willing to give up the Ark of the Covenant.

Mary has a very special role in this spiritual war. She is not a "dead person" who faded away into the pages of history. She is a kicking prayer warrior who is alive. Catholics think her ministry did not end with the birth of Jesus. That was only the beginning of her important role.

Although the passage shows Mary with a crown in heaven that does not make her a god. She is a creature. The passage clearly shows that Jesus went to "God's Throne." He is the King. What respectable king does not have a queen. Her entire dignity stems from Jesus, the King, her Son. Catholics have no problem honouring her and asking her to pray to Jesus for us.

I found the above quote and I liked its explanation, I thought it would help.

Well let's also visit something else. Jesus is the new Adam(man) and Mary is the new Eve(woman) you can't have a new Adam without a new Eve. It took a woman to bring sin into the world, and a woman to bring salvation to it. Whether you like it or not, that woman is extremely important and deserves honour. Thank goodness Christ didn't forget his mother and tell her she was not important to bringing salvation to the world.

Catholics see an important link between Mary in the New Testament and Eve in Genesis. (Gen 3:3-24) We believe Mary's "Yes" to God and his plan of redemption, reversed Eve's "No" and reversed Eve's refusal to obey and cooperate with God. Mary's "Yes" and cooperation with Grace blew away Eve's "No" and fall from Grace. (Lk 1:2) Catholics think it is not by accident that Eve (the woman) came out of the body of Adam (the man), and that Jesus (the man/God) came out of the body of Mary (the woman). This view was put forth by St. Justin who lived from about 110 to 165 A.D. and is consistent with Paul's comparison of Jesus to Adam. (1 Col 15:22, 45). Eve wanted to be all knowing, and ate from the "tree of knowledge". Mary did not need to know the entire plan and at times didn't understand what her son was doing (Mk 3:20). A chart of side-by-side Scripture references at the end of this article helps compare Mary to Eve.

Mary was a true servant. She went to Elizabeth's place to do menial chores and housework for 3 months while Elizabeth's pregnancy with John was advancing (Lk 1:56). That was the custom of the day, to do chores for a relative who was coming to term with her pregnancy. I can imagine Mary washing Elizabeth's toilet area, cleaning the floor, and making meals while she knew she was carrying Jesus, the Saviour of the world, in her womb. What humility, what a servant! (Lk 1:39). Catholics think she still is a humble servant who serves Jesus tirelessly.

But let's see more about Mary

The angel thought Mary was important enough to call her full of grace and to even hail her.

When she was worried about the greeting the angel assured her that she has found favour with God. Well let's see maybe she found favour like the prophets in the Old Testament, would that mean that God would accept the prophets but not Mary? Wouldn't that make God sexist?
We already know that it is possible for there to be people in heaven, clearly Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ. Moses proves that it is possible to have "saints" in heaven though they die on earth, while Elijah proves that it is possible for people to be assumed up into heaven just like Enoch.

Now let's visit Elizabeth's greeting of Our Lord's Mother.

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit cried out in a loud voice and said "Most blessed are you amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Most blessed, wait o, Elizabeth herself is carrying a prophecy in her womb too and she is carrying a blessed child, but how come Mary is the one that is most blessed, certainly both women carrying blessed children should be equally "blessed?"
How come Mary is the mother of the Lord? This is the same Lord, Lord which those who prophecy and drive out demons and perfom might deeds in Jesus name call Jesus too o.

maybe we should visit the magnificat, the canticle of Mary.

She herself let us know that every nation will call her blessed, just as Elizabeth called her blessed.
Yup that's right she let us also know that she can never take away the greatness of the Lord, she cannot overshadow his glory, she knows that she has been saved by being full of grace. It wasn't by her power that she was saved, but through her son. But rather than being saved as everyone else who got saved after the saviour came into the world, she was saved, even before te saviour took into ther womb. She was full of grace before he took to her womb.

Luke 2:34-35
Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many Isreal, and to be a sign that will be contradicted (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed."

Mary herself will not be untouched to the reactions by the role of her Son, her blessedness as mother of the Lord will be challenged by her son who describes true blessedness as "hearing the word of God and observing it"


A form of intercession by Mary was at the wedding at Cana when she asks them to do whatever Jesus tells them. She does the same now.

She does have an impotant role as "queen"


1 Kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king's mother; so she sat at his right hand.
2:20 Then she said, "I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you."


What does this have to do with Jesus and Mary, like I said the wedding at Cana.
Mary asks the attendants to listen to Jesus. Likewise Jesus instructs them on what to do and there he performed a miracle by turning water into wine. His mother made a request for wine and he fulfilled it.

This is the relationship of a queen to her son the King


Mary as Mother of the Church
In saying "yes" to God, Abraham became the father of all humanity (Gen 22:17). Catholics believe that similarly, Mary's "yes" to God made her the mother of all humanity. (Lk 1:2, Jn 19:26) Mary responded to the Angel of God (Lk 1:2) and so did Abraham (Gen 22:11). The Bible talks about Mary at the foot of the Cross. It says:

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. (John 19:26),

Most certainly he was saying, as Evangelicals suggest, that John should take care of his mother. But Jesus does not speak on one level alone. His words are multi-layered and rich. I believe in this passage, the greater meaning is that Jesus gives Mary to all people as our mother.

And at the foot of the Cross which was prefigured by the tree in the Garden of Eden, Jesus says to the apostle take her as your mother, and to Mary he says take him as your son. Jesus was not simply just concerned with taking care of his mother. He also told Mary to be John's Mother. John represented all of the Christians, he was the only disciple present, and therefore he was standing in the gap for us.

Jesus could have given that discourse at any time in the days leading up to the crucifixion. He waited until his last breath to do it when every breath wa agonizing and a moment before he died (and conquered sin). Most of the early CHurch fathers say that he waited until that moment because the scenario at the foot of the cross completes the scenario at the foot of the tree in Eden and to leave Mary out of that scenario as the new Eve, is a one legged analysis I would say.

By this point her pilgrimage of faith is maturing. When Jesus was younger, she chastised Jesus when he ran away at twelve year old (Lk 2:51) and when he was not eating properly at thirty years old (Mk 3:34). Now she has accepted Simeon's prophesy (Lk 2:34-35). She has kept the faith, she stands obediently at the foot of the Cross (Jn 19:26). Later she reaped the rewards (Acts 1:14), and now in heaven, she shares the greatest of those rewards with us, her faith in Jesus, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

Just as Eve was given the title of "mother of all the Living" by Adam, Mary was given the role of mother of the living by Jesus (Jn 19:26). Catholics believe this was confirmed in Revelation 12:17.

The early apostles, the jewish prophets of God, faithful disciples penned those words under the inspiration of God. The catholic church merely compiled it into a book and NOW wish to take false credit for it. But hey . . . i'm just like olabowale isnt it?

Ok here we go. Bible verses and explanations for all the heresy above.

Thanks.

We have never taken credit for the writing of the Words of God. We just don't see how we were good enough to discern between all the books that were written, that which was the Word of God, and now we're evil. Those same evil men handled and decided what was truly the Word of God.
I just cannot seem to understand how we handled the very smae Word of God that you hold to be the Word of God and the center of your belief, yet we are evil and have evil doctrines and evil motives. How come the Books we decided to be your Word of God isn't evil? Why didn't we just put evil books that will contradict what you believe and support all we believe. since you think we have different beliefs?

This is equivalent to the muuslims labeling the Bible as false yet they go to great lengths to prove their authenticity from that very book that they labeled fasle.

Tithing in the bible had nothing to do with one's income and it was not meant for every body, it was strictly produce of the land or the tenth domestic animal that passed under the rod.

oh my goodness. It was not just the animals that passes under the rod

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD

even, not only. So basically everything of the land, and not just those under the rod.

You know what here's the full deal.

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation.

3And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

4And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

5And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

6And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

7And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

8But if he be poorer than thy estimation, then he shall present himself before the priest, and the priest shall value him; according to his ability that vowed shall the priest value him.

9And if it be a beast, whereof men bring an offering unto the LORD, all that any man giveth of such unto the LORD shall be holy.

10He shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good: and if he shall at all change beast for beast, then it and the exchange thereof shall be holy.

11And if it be any unclean beast, of which they do not offer a sacrifice unto the LORD, then he shall present the beast before the priest:

12And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou valuest it, who art the priest, so shall it be.

13But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.

14And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy unto the LORD, then the priest shall estimate it, whether it be good or bad: as the priest shall estimate it, so shall it stand.

15And if he that sanctified it will redeem his house, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be his.

16And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.

17If he sanctify his field from the year of jubile, according to thy estimation it shall stand.

18But if he sanctify his field after the jubile, then the priest shall reckon unto him the money according to the years that remain, even unto the year of the jubile, and it shall be abated from thy estimation.

19And if he that sanctified the field will in any wise redeem it, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be assured to him.

20And if he will not redeem the field, or if he have sold the field to another man, it shall not be redeemed any more.

21But the field, when it goeth out in the jubile, shall be holy unto the LORD, as a field devoted; the possession thereof shall be the priest's.

22And if a man sanctify unto the LORD a field which he hath bought, which is not of the fields of his possession;

23Then the priest shall reckon unto him the worth of thy estimation, even unto the year of the jubile: and he shall give thine estimation in that day, as a holy thing unto the LORD.

24In the year of the jubile the field shall return unto him of whom it was bought, even to him to whom the possession of the land did belong.

25And all thy estimations shall be according to the shekel of the sanctuary: twenty gerahs shall be the shekel.

26Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD's firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is the LORD's.

27And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.

28Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.

29None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

33He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.


Dude your profits are what you tithe. Today your profits are your income your paycheck. You tithe your profits.
Abraham tithed the spoils of war, Jacob tithed his possessions. What they possessed then were animals and fruits and land and such and yes even money, notice the shekels that were to be given to God. This was way before it was laid out in law. When Jacob tithed he said a tenth of everything I give. SO if he had money, he gave, goat, he gave, corn, he gave, what he possessed he gave.

Today what people usually possess are income. Average is the dollar, naira pounds, whatever currency.

instead of just relying on mis-information circulating in the church about tithes.

who told you I got information about tithes from the Church? Did it ever occur to you that I read and this is what I concluded from my readings?

mind you i have no objection to one giving any percentage of his/her income to the church freely, i am just embarassed as a christian that some churches have to twist the word of God to manipulate people in to parting with there money, the Church should be above board and should not engage in deception just to raise money for "God's work"

Well thank goodness I don't attend such Church

Olabowale

You know I kept wondering why you muuslims always attack Paul. Then it came to me, Paul was the one commissioned to go to the gentiles. He is the biggeset threat to Is'lam. Muhaamad is supposed to be the prophet that would take God to all people. But since Paul had already done that, you try to attack him and say that he was doing what Christ didn't teach. It all makes sense now.

My goodness desperation is laughable

Nope and could you please qualify "the church" by adding "catholic" to it so we don't confuse others please.

Like I said "The Church"

how many did they burn at the stake, how many did they feed to lions, how many did they drive into catacombs?

Are you asking about the Protestants or the Catholics? If the protestansts, many, that is how we have some martyrs of the Church today. Many were killed.
If the Catholics, many Protestants were killed too. If you're going to point one flaw point out the other. I at least know that the Church isn't perfect, and I don't go bashing protestants. Out of Protestanism many men with their own doctrines have risen. That is why today you have so many self-proclaimed preachers, and lately so many of them are being exposed. That is why today you have so many interpretations for the one Bible and Christians are slinging at each other, "this is false, that is false" Christ established the Church as a whole, he didn't commission every man on the street to be keepers of his flock.

Who are the "heretics"? Those who refused to follow catholic man made doctrine of purgatory and confessions?

Those who refuse to follow what the Bible says. Those who turn a blind eye to what is clearly in the Bible. Those who label themselves worthy of being keepers of Christ's flock. Purgatory is in the Bible and you cannot argue that confession isn't in it either. You also cannot argu that penance is not in the Bible. Just because it is hard for you to do doesn't mean that it is not in the BIble. Now we have people not wanting to pay tithes interpreting the Bible to suit them. You also have those who want to commit fornication finding a way out in the Bible. Religion with contentment is truly a gain. You want the easy way out. Don't want to be held liable for your actions. You claim Christ gave us authority, when the authority is exercised you scream "false"

Against the muuslims and atheists you bring up doctrines in the Bible, yet you label those same doctrines as false, when it suits you.
I only laugh. You don't have to accept it, I could care less, but you have shown your true self and thank goodnes I am not the only one who sees it. Everyone does.

Like I said, you are no different from Olabowale.

Do you notice anything similar to this . . .

christians attacked muuslims and all she did was defend herself. As she is still doing today.

hahaha funny enough above you saw that as a good thing, but now it is bad huh.
You claimed not to condemn the crusades, but here you are condemning it

When did protestants attack the catholic church to destroy it?

Maybe you choose to be blind to this too. Why don't you look up the Church martyrs and see what pops up?

If your popes can see it and feel the need to apologise then i just shake my head.

I still want you to list them out so that I may decide for myself. Maybe I just didn't hear of it, why don't you educate me on the matter.

Same old anti-biblical nonsense we've had to endure for centuries. Is God so weak that He needed the pope to protect His word?

I never called the crusades evil, i think you're getting it mixed up in the haste to have a leg to stand on.
I would never call evil a war that was launched to rescue Jerusalem from the hands of isl'amic invaders. No way.

Hmm I guess it was a bad thing then.

That would never have happened because it would have rendered God's word and His very sacrifice on the cross null and void. The catholic church stood up and fought for her own doctrine . . . certainly not the doctrine of Christ.

hmm just above it was good, now it's not.

Hatred, hatred. . . . expose their errors and they say u resort to hatred. Even the pharisees labelled Christ a son of belzebub.

Even the devil quotes the Bible and he definitely interprets too.

Not at all, that accusation is squarely yours. Continue venerating Mary and then accuse those who point out the bible to you as bashing u out of hatred.

Should Olabowale now post the things you've accused him of?
I will continue venerating Mary. She is the Ark of the covenant. She is the Mother of my saviour and the Mother to us all. Christ gave her to us when he said "Woman behold your son" "Here is your mother" there is a reason he gave her to his most beloved disciple, just as were are his beloved disciples.
Mary is among my prayer group. No she has no tomb, she was taken body and soul to heaven. Any arguments, show me her tomb. There are saints in heaven, we know this in revelation but not just that, we know that it is very capable for the faithful to be in heaven, Moses and Elijah.

There are more of these, but hey this isn't a discussion about Catholics.

If Catholics worship Idols, then so do you. You should give up that Bible you know, evil men put it together. You shouldn't have anything to do with evil

Just because i don't accept a doctrine that as been presented as the word of God does not mean i am not a true believer, even though the bible is a spiritual book it was written for the understanding of Man and not in parables Numbers 12 : 8, when you have to depend on another man be it pastor or what ever, you risk that person foistering his opinion/ doctrine on you and him telling you it is the word of God. Anything that can not be substantiated in the bible is not acceptable by me and i would also not accept manipulative interpretations that is why i have three versions of the bible so to help me understand what the scriptures say better. The truth is that there is more human doctrine in the church today than the true word of God. As for spirituality, my spirit tells me in very clear terms that the church as led us astray, even then i am a very strong bible believing christian. I just try to seperate God's word from Man's doctrine presented as the word of God.

Forget man's doctrine, I could care less for that. What I believe is what I have read in the Bible.

I am talking about you contradicting your own self. You gave a definition of fornication and out your own definition you didn't find satisfaction.

I would tell you that fornication is not a sin, just so that you can stop wasting everybody's time, but that wouldn't be right of me, I know better.

So hey, look, you don't need us to let you know whether or not it is a sin. You have your mind made up, you want to have sex with your girl, go ahead. It's up to you. God gave us free will. You are not in bondage. Make your decisions, but please stop looking for justification from us, you won't get it.

Next thing now we will see people trying to justify homosexuality from the Bible.

Na wa o.

I went back and red something that caught me eye

when you have to depend on another man be it pastor or what ever, you risk that person foistering his opinion/ doctrine on you and him telling you it is the word of God

Come were the apostles God and did they not teach Christians. The Bible wasn't in circulation before it was complied. Infact letters of the Bible talk about the teachings of the apostles, so are you now saying that the apostles put their own "human opinion" in there?

Anything that can not be substantiated in the bible is not acceptable by me and i would also not accept manipulative interpretations that is why i have three versions of the bible so to help me understand what the scriptures say better.

How did this Bble get to be the Word of God as you know it today?

no mind me o am just looking for trouble. lol.

I never called the crusades evil, i think you're getting it mixed up in the haste to have a leg to stand on.
I would never call evil a war that was launched to rescue Jerusalem from the hands of isl'amic invaders. No way.

David, you have used the crusades against the Church.

What i criticised quite frankly were the dark ages when the catholic church ACTIVELY persecuted the protestant church. IT IS IN NO WAY TO BE MIXED UP AS PART OF THE CRUSADES.

Check out the prosecution of the Catholics by the protestants

when you expose evil they say you bash out of hatred. I ask for the upteenth time . . . hatred of what exactly? of the catholic church? Give me a break please

I would really like to know what evil it is that the Catholic Church have done. By what defending herself againts heretics? Protestants attacked the Catholic Church and all she did was defend herself. As she is still doing today.
In all the discussions that we've had on this board, I still haven't seen the evil done by the Church. I am in no way saying that the Church has been perfect, clearly not, but I want to know about her evil. I am asking you to give me conspiracy theories or whatever, but what the Church actually does. I don't want what you think she does, but what she actually does.

You call her evil yet she is the one who protected your very belief today. If she didn't stand up and fight, we all may have been coerced into Is'lam. We may take what the Imams tell us to be true. We may not know the true history because as we see today, they wipe out history and replace it with their own version.

Hatred? You ask for answers you are given them, but you turn blind to them or change their interpretation to fit what you want and then call it blasphemous. You ask questions in an accusatory manner which shows you are not in search of the truth. When you are corrected, you skip over and return to your original question, because all you seek is something to agree with you, you don't want to know the truth, but want Catholics to fall in line and believe with you. When the same question is brought up about protestants, you say that theya re just humans, I guess that means that Catholics came from a different planet then.

I am not the only one who sees it David. Not just Catholics, the atheist, muuslims and other protestants who don't join in your bashing see it too. You have been called out on it many times, and yet you resort to "hatred?"
Who told you you have the correct interpretation? even the devil is misleading.

You do the exact same thing you accuse Olabowale of.

Anyway, not to turn this into anything else. I will get back on track.

Please tell me how what Backslider said, posted far above, that you respond to is a correct and direct explanation of what Cayon, said, posted near above? And how did I not get it, when I said that Jesus, based on what the bible said condemned some people in the Christendom, already, you seem to assume that I was not telling the truth. We see Backslider agreeing with me. This verse does not need any interpretation. It is so direct, that it reminded me my Primary one english about complete sentence: John comes to school, was the sentence, There is no need for explanation in this case

You and I both know the context in which you made your statement and it is very evident when you stated that Jesus condemned people in this very religion.

Tell me that you were not trying to make implications about the Christian religion (this has been your very goal)
So no matter how subtle you make your statement, the underlay is still the smae. You are making a mockery of Christianity.

Why does every verse in the Bible needs explanation? Is there any verse in the Bible that does not need any interpretation?

Why does every verse in the Qu'ran need and explanation? Is there any verse in the Qu'ran that doesn't need an interpretation?

Dude in any language, an interpretation or explanation is always needed or else you won't understand. It is not just for religious works. This sentence I write to you needs to be understood by you, your brain explains and interprets it to you, and that is why you are able to understand what I am posting.

Don't forget I posted a question of how is the Word of God separate from God himself and the muuslims had to "explain" to me how it means the word be and it is.

If you don't or there are, how do you interprete Mark 12 verse 29, talking about Jesus saying that oh my people listen, your God and my God, is but just One Lord! It denies anything more than 1 entity. Then we move to post Jesus verses where the postulation of of other people's 3 godhead was presented. If these two verses are interpreted, there is no way that they will mean the same thing. Please lets have a good conscience about this.

This is why you lack the mystery of Christ. I honestly don't know how else to explain it to you, since you want to see God as three in Christianity, but he is not. It's cool.

Olabowale my name, among the yoruba is not a name that needs any explanation or a further strange and indirect look at it. I use my name as an example of what is direct

I don't know what Olabowale means you have to interpret that for me. Since interpretations are not necessary, would you please let me know the meaning of Ikponmwosa.

I just give you two of the verses you right away point its already agreeable, can you find the two more verses in Mark and John?

John
"I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie." 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit'

Mark
'"After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Tongues as Fire, are you a dragon of the chinese believe?

Seeing is believing right? So does God exist and have you seen him? Everything must be in the physical right? Where is God in the physical?

Please, read the verse from the Bible about Baptism, again. I will post two of them below so that you do not have to worry to much. Now tell me how you can, in good conscience say what you said about either of the two verses, as i have quoted you above?

If you are sincere, forgeting that the verse isvery straight forward about spirit and fire regarding the baptism, I will allow you to interprete as you did, the interpretation is what is quoted; Now tell us how you can not see that therewill be two spirits coming to play in the baptism? the one that is in the baptism and the one you manufactured to be received in your quoted interpretation.

If you look at the sentence structure, the verses in the Bible or your own quote, you will see that you must be consistent, with how the spirit and fire come together, since they are both active in the baptism. there is no way you can ignore one, and leave it intact in the original premise and began to interprete the other part. It does not wrk like that. I wonder if the Mountain of Fire (receiving spirit, if I use your idea) also baptize with spirit, since they have a mountain of it already. It should not be hard for them to just pick and choose.

"I will shower you with love and affection."

So will I be receiving two different things or will I be receiving the same thing? Will I be showering you with love and then separately be showering with affection? Which one comes first?

I am very disappointed in your use of Mountain of fire. It is just a name of a church. I really thought you could do better than that.


The Holy Spirit and Fire are synonymous.

Can you break this up, please.
How do you expect someone to be encouraged to read this?

Wow!!!

I hope that's not real. I hope that article is a fake.

California just gave marriage certificates to hundreds of couples this week. We still have to vote on it this November.
This is outrageous.

Love the people, hate the sin.

Lady, thanks for your brilliant expose, as usual olabowale prefers to be in denial.

Thanks, but I would rather not receive a compliment from you. These were the very crusades that you called evil when you were on a rampage to labelling the Catholic Church as evil. I doubt you even took the time to know why it is that the Church went on a crusade. Or maybe you did but since your goal was to label the Church evil and find fault in it, you decide to be blind.

I don't like that all these wars have gone, on both the muuslim and Christian sides, but I at least don't go bashing out of hatred, and then hiding it saying it is out of passion.

I do have to commend you as well, because you are certainly holding your ground with Olabowale and refusing to buy into his distortment of the truth (which I know after extensive research of the Qu'ran).


Olabowale,
I commend you for your stance, but your goal was to convert me to Is'lam. It is very fortunate for me that you cannot convert me( you can call it unfortunate) but I know that my belief is based on truth. Whereas you have been believing something because you were cautioned that it is the truth.
I feel sorry for you, that you even take the interpretations given to you by the Imams as true. Instead of listening to a Christian to give you the actual meaning of what they're believing you take what the Imams tell you is the interpretations of it to be true.
For that I am sorry.
I at least came to you to find out how it is that you interpret the Qu'ran rather than going off of what I hear from others. The best way to know is to go to the source. I came to you. I figured for your age and study of the Qu'ran you would know more about it than my friends who are young muuslims.
You do, you have taught me a lot about your religion and in the process moved me to appreciate mine even more.
I do plead this of you, don't use Is'lam to interpret Christianity. You do not know anything about Christianity if you do. How can you then label something false that you do not know about?

Also, if you are going to try to convert someone bashing their religion is not the way to go. Telling them the interpretations of their own book is not the way to go, instead you will show them that you do not know anything about their religion, therefore how can you call it false?

Also, using a book that you have labeled corrupt to prove that your own religion is not good. It only shows that your book is contradictory of its belief.

When the Qu'ran can be proven without trying to prove other books as false, come back and try to convert me
When the Qu'ran can prove itself without standing upon the Bible (the book that it labels as corrupt), come back and try to convert me.
Until then, keep your opinion to yourself.

I can go through this thread and list all the unanswered questions that I have about Is'lam.
I can go through and list all the contradictory points about Is'lam

Once again, thanks for moving me to believe more in my faith. Thanks for the challenge it has caused me to study my religion more and I thank God for it.

fake story
already came across it

That statement you are making is an assumption which the church uses to justify the collection of tithes in cash and it is very far from the truth

What part of tithe is giving back what God gives to you?
I said in that time it is in the part of goats and more, today it is in the form of income. No where did I mention money. No pastor told me anything, stop assuming people are stupid and cannot read the Bible for themselves and know the truth.

For me today what God gives to me as an income is not goats, cows, or grains, but a paycheck and from that I give to God. If you determine that yout income is in the form of goats, then go ahead and give goats to the house of God.

The passage I quoted if you looked at it will see that pastors don't quote that. Honestly in my Church there is no puch for tithes. You pay it if you want, you don't if you don't. It's not like the Priest is telling you you must give your tithes and that makes the heart of the messages we received in mass.

Contrary to that deception money was freely in use at that time. there is mention of money in the book of deurteronomy, numbers, leviticus and exodus which were the books written by Moses whom God defined Tithes to.

Where did this conspiracy come from? What pastor or Priest has come up to say that money was not in existence? WHy do claim a conspiracy that is not there?
You're saying "that is what your pastors want you to believe" Did it ever occur to you that people, after reading the Bible, decides ok, well money is the easiest way of me giving tithes, money is the form in which I receive an income and it is the easiest way I can pay my tithes, rather than buying a goat and laying it at the altar. Our times don't allow for goats and cows and animals ad grains to be taken to the altar.

The Lord also said that if you do not own a goat take your money to the temple and buy your goat, my dear do you see goats being sold at the temple today? What I can give I do, in the form that I have.

How do you know they never tithed? What if the carpenter's owned goats they couldn't tithe?
Are you saying that carpenter's never existed in the days of Moses, because everyone was suposed to tithe

@Poster

don't flatter yourself.

4Her, tngtech, and co.

Poster was being a jester. It's not that serious.

@lady
You keep looking for my trouble allover the place, i did not suggest any of those books contradicted what we have in the bible all i am saying is that there are other inspired books that should have been in the bible that are not there and actually contain a lot of knowledge missing from the bible. Let me ask you a question how much does the bible say about Melchizedec ( priest of the most high) who was compared to Jesus in the book of hebrew?? do you know that some of the missing books covered his ministry?? I would post a list of missing books with biblical references shortly to prove my point further.

hahaha I guess you can label me a trouble maker then if you want.

I know you didn't say that the books contradicted, my point is that all we have is enough. You're also talking about the Church, you forget the Church wasn't founded until after Christ came. Melchizedek was in the Torah, if you want to talk about that go to the Jews, stop laying it on the Church as if there's some kind of conspiracy.


As for the new testament books seriously man, most are incomplete. How can you have the full story with incomplete books?
Some were written many years after Christ, the Church decided on the ones they know the author and were not written late.
I promise it's like some of the books are attributed to people that were already dead before their book was written. There were way too many false ones, so they decided on the ones they knew were credible.

Why do you have so many topics that pretty much lay on the same issues? Just combine them please, stop wasting space.