₦airaland Forum

A lot of Christians also go with the "sound good theory"

"sound good theory" - Anything that sounds good about the Christian faith.

How do you know people who go with this theory?

Those who agree with a "sound good theory" on one thread and then agrees with another "sound good theory" on another thread even though those two theories contradict each other.

Those are the lost sheep.

Which part of the bible CLEARLY describes Mary as the queen of heaven? think about it . . . why did NOT ONE of the apostles call her that?

Why did NOT ONE of the apostles call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Trinity? How do you know they did not call her that. Were you there? Are all the sayings of the apostles in the Bible?
The core of our faith is Jesus Christ and that is what was highlighted. Mary is not to take away the glory of her Son, but that does not make her any less blessed.
The Bible speaks of her as the woman crowned with twelve stars. Seriously dude.
Who then is the Queen of heaven? Who then is the ark of the covenant? Certaily the first covenant had an ark, what about the second covenant? Who housed Jesus? Why did he need to be born of a virgin? What's the impotance of the woman? What does full of grace mean?

that is your oppinion, if i saw it in all clarity i would not skip it.

You already admitted to skipping it. Don't claim amnesia all of a sudden.

Good.

Learn something from the assumption that you made. Stop assuming things. Actually get to know the belief of the Church before you accuse her of anyting.

God was the very embodiment of the Ark itself in the old testament

It is now up to you to explain this part. Was the covenant placed in an ark or not? Was an ark created for the covenant or not? So is God now wood? Infact explain the ark of the covenant.

The mercy seat was placed above this ark in the old testament, it was at this seat that the priests of old would come yearly to offer up sacrifices for the sins of the people . . . is Mary the one pleading for us today?

The ark was not the one offering up sacrifices so how can it be Mary offering up sacrifices?
Yes Mary is pleading for us. But she's not the only one, the whole Church is pleading today for one another. We pray for one another.

Jesus wasnt "housed" in Mary, she was merely the vessel by which He came to the earth.

So where was he during his conception and how did he take the form of man? Was he outside of Mary?
You just realised that you have contradicted yourself in this sentence.

Well let's look at the vessel, certainly not any random woman could be chosen to house God himself, o would God just choose any random woman?

It's not just about a vessel, there is a reason why he had to come from a woman and that particular woman. Why that particular woman? What does she represent?

Madam IT IS NOT SO. Stop interpreting your own theology into the bible.

Saying it is not so, does not refute my statements and beliefs.
Showing how it is not so may refute my statements and beliefs.
So please show me how it is not so.

Madam, this is based on what exactly? What is the scripture to back up these false claims?

Either you are completely blind or you do not take Revelations 12 to be scripture

1260 days divided by 360 days (initially regarded as the number of days in the yr) is exactly 3.5 years.
- Why is Mary on earth and chased to a desert for 3.5 years? What happened to her after this 3.5 years? Where exactly is Mary now? In heaven or on earth? What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

The assumption of Mary was written to have occurred between 3 and 15 years after the ascension of Christ.
This link holds the story of her assumption [url]http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm[/url]

So it just may be that 3.5 years is more accurate.
But hey it's not in scripture that she assumed but we do know the mysteries of the faith and the revelations given the Church by God himself.
St. Thomas doubted the assumption of Mary and was taken to her tomb to see for himself.

Mary is in heaven. she was granted a favour by her son and was taken up body and soul. To understand Mary one has to understand the resurrecton of Christ and his faithful. We are to be resurrected as he was and we know that there are few people who were already taken into heaven. Moses, Elijah, Enoch, so we know it is highly possible that one can be in heaven both body and soul. Certainly Jesus would not neglect his mother and allow her to suffer corruption. In so doing he honours his mother in every sense of the word.

The 1260 days symbolise the time period of the persecution of the church.

Did you know that the body of Christ is constantly refered to as a woman in the new testament?

The body of Christ is the Church and I know that it is referred to as a woman. But wait a minute I thought that was a bad thing, I believe you were the one, when trying to prove that the Church is the LovePeddler in revelations, specifically pointsout that the church calls regards herself as a woman. So why is it being used as a good thing in your argument now?

But hey I said if you don't agree then give your own interpretation

Here's the actual interpretation of the passage.

Revelations 12
1 Symbolizes the people of the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Isreal of Old gave birth to the messiah and then became the new Isreal, the church, which suffers persecution by the devil.

2 Because of Eve's sin the woman gives birth in distress

3 The devil or satan, the forces of eveil. The seven diadems symbolises the sovereign authority of the devil over kingdoms the world.

4 The devil positions itself to sto the salvation of mankind through the mesiah about to be born

5 Isreal gives birth to the messiah in whom the promise of slavation is fulfilled. The messiah ascended

6 God protects the Church during its persecution in the desert (traditional place of refuge in the OT)

7 A war between the angels and the devil and his angels

8 The devil and its angels were defeated

9 The devil, the ancient serpent (who seduced Eve) was thrown down to the earth

10 - 12 Rejoicing takes place because now the promise is fulfiled ad the Kingdom of God is at hand and accessible to all mankind. But those who still remain on earth are to suffer from the devil in his anger.

13 The devil pursues the Church

14 But the Church has help from above (divine help from God)

15 Serpent is shown as a sea monster

16 The Church is helped by the earth

17 The Church is protected by God but still the individual Christian must suffer persecution.

MARY- The new Eve, the Mother of the Church (the body of Christ), the ark of the covenant, the seat of wisdom (I bet you'll ask me about this one too, I'll wait for you to ask and ten I'll explain)

JESUS - The messiah, the new Adam, the new Covenant, the Word of God.

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!!!

Morning people.
God bless you all

If Moses condition was not a fraud, and Jesus himself did not in any single verse preached Trinity, and he Jesus never said that he is equal to God, then the whole premise of post Jesus preaching of trinity is just a fraud

See this is why I say you don't understand the concept of the Trinity. You think that it was introduced after the death of Jesus.

Show it to be, everywhere in the "Scripture." I am willing to read. I will not take your interpretation. I just want you to show it to be directly, word for word, and nothing more. I can read. Then I will show you from the "Scripture," word for word that proves everything except Trinity. Infact i will ask you to search the Bible for Trinity as a word. You aint going to find it.

I can't believe you even suggested I try to find the word Trinity in the Bible. You should know better now. Use that with the Protestants, not the Catholics.
But the concept of Trinity is in the Bible.

Like I said I will show you passages in the Bible, but if you understand the concept and true essence of Trinity you will see that the passages you wish to quote for me doesn't contradict the Trinity concept.
But I did say it will be a long write up.

I have to go pray now and study. I have three exams next week, two of them on monday, so no fun for me this weekend.
But I will start the write up next week. I was reading the catechism this morning and I was directed to the Trinity, but particularly the profession of the Christian faith.
I think I'll write that up for you, so that you may see the full picture of it. But it will be full of passages, and even those you wish to cite for me.

Happy 4th of July. Nothing happens in Tally, it's always so boring. Can't wait to move to the big city.

But every human has a spirit. The inner self.

The Spirit and the spirit are different things.

The Spirit is God's Spirit
The spirit is the inner self.

The one spoken of in that verse is The Spirit, God's Spirit.

LOLOLOLOL

Nigerians never cease to amaze me.

So now that Yar'Adua has "disappointed" us, I guess we should run back to OBJ because he was better.

LOLOLOL

RUBBISH

Quite frankly Gambari is neutral and was appointed by the United Nations, so those of you quick to jump on Yar'Adua please hold it. The UN had a say in it.

But if the Niger-Deltans are unwilling to work with Gambari then another person needs to be found, because forcing Gambari on them will only make matters worse.

Personally I doubt that the so-called leaders of Niger Delta really do care for the people. They are looking for their own interests. I was all for Kofi Annan, and do hope that he will eventually be chosen. Maybe then we will see whether these Niger-Deltans are criminals or really care for the people.

The fact that the term "trinity" appears no where in the bible (its latin and the apostles did not speak latin) does not mean what it purports to describe is not there.

same thing with Mary

I have asked the same of you, perhaps purgatory is explained in the bible while the word is not exactly there . . . why have you shied away from explaining it?

you deliberately skipped it

you cannot understand what you don't know. Again i ask the very same question you have DELIBERATELY dodged twice now - EVERYONE baptised with fire in the bible spoke in tongues, does the catholic church believe in the speaking in tongues or in any baptism other than that of water?

Yes. We very much believe in the speaking of tongues and in the baptism of the holy Spirit. You never asked me this question. If you did and I missed it, i apologise.

1. Who is the ark of the covenant in the book of revelations? - The ark of the covenant in the old testament symbolised the presence of the Lord Almighty to the Jews. How did it suddenly become a symbol of Mary in the new testament?

It is not the symbol of Mary. Mary is the symbol of the ark of the covenant.
Jesus Christ is the covenant. Mary is the ark. Jesus was housed in Mary. The ark is mentioned in Revelations in the form of a woman who was with child and the child was the messiah and the dragon was the devil and the devil went after the woman and her son, not being able to capture the woman and her son, the messiah, he went after the rest of the woman's children, the christians.

2. Who is the woman clothed with the son with the moon under her feet? - How is Revelation 12 talking about Mary?

Well I don't want to repeat myself.

But I will show you what you ask for.

Revelations 12

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun with the woman under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth
3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.
4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. he the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the natons with an iron rod. Her child caught up to God and his throne.

The child destined to rule all the nations is Christ, the messiah, the woman is his mother clearly because she gives birth to him. Who's the mother of the messiah? Mary ofcourse.
Unless there's another messiah and another woman who gave birth to him, but we both know that to be false.

6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven, Micheal and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back.
8 but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authroity of his Annointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses then before our God day and night.
11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the wod of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.
12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time."

13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 But the woman ws given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly away to her place in the desert, where, far form he serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half year.
15 The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current.
16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed from its mouth.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who kept God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus
18 It took its position on the sand of the sea.

After not being able to get a hold of Mary and being defeated and cast down from heaven, the devil pursues the Christians, those who keep God's commandments. Those who keep God's commandments are the woman's children, the woman being Mary and those who keep God's commandment being Christians, Mary is the mother of Christians.

If you don't agree or don't see what I am saying then please bless us with your own interpretation.

I do not know it all, but this much i know ma'am . . . your cult doctrine is completely unbiblical. Again i will reference just one - Where is Mary regarded as the ark of the covenant in the bible? Not even the pharisees were this blind and deluded.

Where is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit regarded as the Trinity in the Bible?

Being able to quote it is far better than not even knowing what it says regarding very important issues.

No it is not, even the devil quotes the Bible, you said it yourself. Understanding and knowing what it says fully is much better than quoting it.

Do you know why Christ had to come to this earth?
Do you know why he had to be human?
What was the significane of him becoming human?
Why did he have to come from a woman?
Why did the woman have to be a virgin?
What does it mean to be full of grace?

Reading certain verses in the Bible and running off of that is not enough. Understanding what you believe in and why you believe in it is very important, otherwise you are nothing but a brainwashed child.
Understading why certain events had to take place in your faith, understanding what each event means, understanding the mysteries of your faith is key.

You don't have to answer my questions, I already have the answers, but if you truly want to help yourself answer it for yourself. Sit in your room, open your Bible, and ask the Spirit to guide you.

What does the transfiguration mean?
What does the baptism of Jesus mean?
Who is the ark of the covenant in the book of revelations?
What does the annunciation mean?
What does the agony in the garden mean?
What does the crucifixion mean?
What does the eucharist (body and blood of Christ? mean and why do we need to partake in it?
Who is the woman clothed with the son with the moon under her feet?
What is the meaning of Revelations 11:19 and Revelations 12?

There are many more mysteries of the Christian faith. Reading and coming up with your own meaning is not the way.

I am going to asnwer you in good faith that you will actually sincerely read it.

Is the pope the representative of Christ on earth?

Yes.

When was Mary regarded as the queen of heaven?

When was the Father, Son, Holy Spirit regarded as the Trinity?

Was Peter truly a pope?

Yes he was the leader of all the apostles. In every instance where the apostles met, it was Peter that spoke out and addressed people. Even Paul acknowleged this when he wrote to the Galatians in Galatians 2:7 "On the contrary when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumsised, just as Peter to the circumsised"

Christ himself gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven, Matthew 16: 17-19 "Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Yes he also told the remaining of the disciples this but only the part about binding and loosing. But to Peter alone was the keys given.

Acts 5:15
"Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them."

Don't dare bring up the question as to whether the Popes shadow heals today. Many people have been to see the Pope, you cannot honeslty say that no one has been healed. We do not need to broadcast the healings. The Church is not looking to be given credit for anything. We just live to serve God.

Does purgatory exist?

Yes.

1Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

Yeah you gave your own explanation of this as in they didn't have a saviour then. Well if so, why were only eight saved. Certainly there were more than eight that died. If these were good men why did they die at all, if they were bad, why were they saved at all, what about the other ones? Shouldn't they have been saved too? They lived in the same time and there was no saviour for them too. Surely God is not partial.

1Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it.

11 for no one can lay a f oundation other than the one that is already there, namely, Jesus Christ.

12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw

13 the works of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one's work.

14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage

15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person shall be saved, but only as through fire.

Why does the second person get a second chance or is chapter 15 saying that after that person's work is deemed to be unsatisfactory they will go straight to hell, and then nothing?
Why does it say that the person will be saved even after his work has been measured and found displeasing to God.

Do you pay for your sins in purgatory after death? How? why? where is it in the bible?

Yes, check above.

Honestly I can't continue this conversation with you. Not that I am hiding but because I have been cautioned by apostle Paul.
Titus 3:9-11
Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile
10 After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic
11 realising that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.

2Timothy 2:16-17
16 Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless,
17 and their teaching will spread like gangrene

1Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid profane babling and te absurdities of so-called knowledge.
By professing it, some people have deviated from the faith

Here's something that he said, that is o so true
2Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4 and stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths

Anyway I bid you farewwll and hope that your eyes are opened. I pray that God reveals to you the mystery of the faith. It is imperative to know what you believe in, why you believe in it, and how it came to be.
Meditate on the mysteries of the faith and all will be revealed to you.

Peace of Christ be with you

The thing is why is Jesus praying to his father in heaven?

I thought they were 1.

Jesus is the Word of God. that is how he is God, because God cannot be separate from his word and his word cannot be separate from him. His word was made flesh and dwelt among us to fulfill the promise that we would one day be as we were when God created us.

I am very ready to take up this issue with you, I know Olabowale has requested it.
It will take a while, but I would like it if my write up will be uninterrupted until I say that I am done.

Is that ok with all of you (muslims)?

When would people accept the truth that there is never anything called TRINITY. We have been treating this particular topic yet christians supporting it have not been able to explain verses in the bible where Jesus distinguished himself from God, made us know that God sent him and He is superior to him. He even cried to the one who could save him, he had no knowledge of the end time and some other things. He prayed and begged the one that could save him when enemies wanted to kill him. He had to pray more than two times and his sweats were like thick blood and when on the cross, he shouted to the one who could save him, 'my Godm why has thou forsaken me?"

Now let me re-write your first sentence but from the point of view of an atheist.

When would people accept the truth that there is never anything called GOD.

You see that just because you don't believe does not mean that it doesn't exist.

The doctrine of trinity is not found in the scriptures

You are one confused Christians and won't be surprised that the muslims will school you on your own beliefs.

The doctrine of Trinity exists in the scriptures and is every where in the scriptures.

For entire christian the Trinity exist, but for Muslim dons't exist.

JUst because you don't believe the Trinity exists does not mean that it doesn't.
Atheists don't believe that God exists, but does that mean that he doesn't?

See your entry Jesus sit in the right hand of God, its contradict went they say's 1+1+1 =1, but that verses you put in

now see that 1+1+1=1 is something invented by muslims. Don't say that Christians say something that they don't. I've never actually heard a Christian say that.

They are different. God is not a Fraud. Will he be deceiving you appearing as a Jesus and HolyGhost and Father to Prove what?

How is it deceiving? If God wants to appear to me in any form who am I to question him and say he's deceiving me.
Did God not appear to Moses in the burning bush? Is that fraud too?

Rubbish rubbish rubbish! Was Lazarus saved or not? Was the thief on the cross saved or not? Those were the two questions i posed that RIGHTLY prove that baptism while essential for every child of God will not preclude you from heaven should you for circumstances beyond your control be unable to partake of it.

I like how you completely ignored this part of my write up:

Baptism is required. You cannot honestly become a Christian and say to yourself I don't have to be baptised. Ofcourse if you are working towards baptism as in the case of catechumens, but die before you can also be saved. But you cannot be a Christian for years and have no intention of getting baptised

the hypocrisy in this "example" is jaw dropping. When Christ answered questions He ALWAYS made mention of "it is written". Madam my question till tomorrow is WHERE is penance written in your bible?

Sir you choose to be blind. If I go back to my posts and quote for you the Bible verse I posted will you apologise for lying?

Not once did Christ acknowledge they were asking questions based on any deep understanding of the laws of the prophets.

And where have I or any Catholic acknowledge that you are asking question based on any deep understanding of the laws of the prophets.

We view you as a very confused and lost boy just as the pharisees were lost. The pharisees thought they knew the laws of the prophets, but didn't realise they were wrong, just as you think you know the laws of the prophets and the mysteries of the Christian faith, but you know not.

madam, arrogance in what? Pride in what?

arrogance in your knowledge of the Bible, Pride in failing to see that you know nothing.

That i choose to use the very bible you purport to read to expose the spiritual emptiness of catholic man-made doctrine is attributed as pride to those who are too blind to see the truth.

The Pharisees use this very same Bible to "expose the spiritual emptiness" of the Christian faith. The muslims use this very same Bible to "expose the spiritual emptiness" of the Christian faith. That you can quote the Bible does not mean you understand it or know the meaning of the words contained in it or the mysteries of the Christian faith.

That you can quote the Bible does not mean that you understand the faith. The Bible is not contradictory but your understanding and misinterpretation of it is. It is your very same misinterpretation and misunderstanding that led you to say that when all you need to have is faith and when the Bible verses that show you that you do need to do work with that faith were presented to you you dismiss them and quote another verse that fit your misunderstanding. Not realising that those Bible verses compliment each other and explain each other more, you wallow in your pride to save face and show that you are right, which you are not.

The verses that you have provided have not in anyway contradicted any of the teachings of the Church but supported it. But your understanding of it and interpretation of it contradicts the teachings but the verses you quote do not contradict it.
That has been my whole point. Quoting the verses don't shake me or any Catholic, infact we believe strongly in what you qoute, but we believe in the fill context of it after reading and understanding the other verses and seeing that they al support each other.
We see the full picture in the mysteries of the faith and don't turn a blind eye to one part and we don't pick and choose what to believe and what to dismiss. We believe strongly in every verse of the Bible and I mean the whole Bible not some verses and forgetting the others, but all the verses.

quite expensive, i wish is in Nigeria u where you can get a phone as cheap as $50
Well just know how you will go about it and take it easy, you must surely get another replacement that is sure.

Girl things are very expensive in the U.S. o. I thought it was expensive before, what I am seeing now ehn, my jaws drop to the floor. With the natural disasters and price of energy food is now a luxury. I will be lucky to eat plantain or veggies with my rice and stew.

But I have great news. I found the phone. I said the St. Anthony of Padua prayer and I found the phone. Turns out I left it in class and my professor saw it.
So thank God.

Sorry o for the phone, its a shame, hope u get over it soon, its quite expensive and i know the feeling, my own no reach $599 but e reach #500 and e worry me for 6 months, lol

LOLOLOL. Oh I wish mine was #500

Meanwhile i buy Suya for main road today and i de chop only one piece for almost 2 hours, una sure say no be blanket these aboki use pepper cover come sell am as Suya for me?

LOLOLOL. Can you do me a favour and send the other piece to me. I will help you out I promise you won't have to spend so much time eating the whole suya. I will be your help.

I MISS SUYAAAAAA!!!!!!

Is it not possible to recover the line first?

Not without a phone. Phones are expensive. The cheapest is $199.99
I'll have to sign a new contract to get a deal. I can't do that

not when the person you love is in pain everyday for three years and once in a while he/she grabs you with the pai and desperation in his/her eyes and whispers hoarsely


Please -let-me-go

This is why I am not God and will not play God. I don't want to see them suffer, but it is not my will, but the will of the Lord that matters.

God's will be done.

ALL life, not some, but ALL life is sacred.

~lady~ quite sad indeed but take heart for it could have been worse (you could have been robbed and worse still sent to the hospital) just tank God you are okay.

we also pray to Him for you. if you explain to your bro. am sure he'll understand.

do have a great day in the arms of your guardian angel and be blessed.

You're right, thanks.

Lady don't you think the phone is a bit expensive? Had it being is not that expensive you wouldn't have felt it much. Just explain to your brother he will understand.

Honestly I didn't pay anything for that phone. The phone company gave me an upgrade when they no longer carried the phone I initially paid for, trust me I didn't pay that amount and no where close to it.

I am sad because I am currently looking for a job and that's the number that the employers have, they don't have a way of getting in contact with me. I'm going to them now to let them know.

My friends also have no other way of contacting me, so I'm pretty much disconnected. My aunts and uncles are going to have a near heart attack experience when they can't get in touch with me

By walking in the Christian faith: helping those in need and staying away from sin.

You don't need any fortification if you have Christ. you are way above them.
Get any local witch and ask her !!

I think he was talking about Christ

Thanks lucabrasi and thanks mishoo

The problem with you guys is that you only accept another person's opinion as long as it has affinity with your upbringing and belief systems. How can you refer me to a post when i can refer you to a hundred posts but decided to talk on MY experience. you could just as well keep quiet if you don't have any experience in the area of discussion (no disregard intended).

I never said i believe in the efficacy of 'juju' but just in its existence. i actually don't have the time for all these rambling and arguments are not my strong point. i just say things as they are and i move on (am already feeling guilty of advertising 'juju' if i can devote such number of minutes to it).

Am out of here.

Don't mind them, I know what I have seen and experienced myself, I don't need someone else to come and debunk my own experience because of their fear to acknowledge the truth.

Truth is juju is real, God exists and is more powerful, Christ is the only way to God.

Wow . . . the crucifiction was a rite? they thrust a spear in His side such that water and blood gushed out, they placed a crown of thorns on His head and cast lots over His clothes - - they did this to EVERY other crucified thief?

By YOUR definition it is.

1. Nope, you can be saved without baptism . . . Lazarus was saved, the thief on the cross was saved . . .

Wow, a very obvious blaspheme. Present this to your pastor and let him know that this came from you, he should pray for you so that you may know what you believe in and why you believe in it.

John 3:5
Jesus answered "Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned


So what say you about the words of Christ?

Baptism is required. You cannot honestly become a Christian and say to yourself I don't have to be baptised. Ofcourse if you are working towards baptism as in the case of catechumens, but die before you can also be saved. But you cannot be a Christian for years and have no intention of getting baptised.

2. Its not a prescription- there is a baptism of water (that of John) and a baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire). No prescriptions, no rite. The Eunuch was baptised in water only.

And you know this because you were there? So you're saying that when the eunuch left he wasn't baptised with the Spirit, so how then was he a Christiand if he didn't have guidance from the Spirit and wasn't filled with the Spirit. I thought every Christian is filled with the Spirit.

That is your own personal oppinion, baptism and salvation are not rites.

This is also your own personal opinion. How can it be my own personal opinion and not yours? Who told you you're right?

Was the Eunuch's baptism a formal ceremony? Whom did he invite? Read the baptism of the Eunuch again . . . Philip wasnt thinking of baptising him, it took the understanding, the eagerness of the man himself to take in all that Philip had told to him to ask to be baptised. It was Philip guiding him through an elaborate celebration, rather it was a heart yearning after God who thirsted after those things that would make him accepted of the Father.

The definition I gave you was not my definition, but the definition of the dictionary, so it is not my opinion. So you see yours is of your own personal opinion. A rite does not have to be in a formal ceremony. But you will cling to that because that is how you can try to prove your point.

By the way your question: What is penance without hiding under the skirts of repentance?

I will not give you the wrong answer because you refuse to understand or because you are blinded by your arrogance and pride.
The answer I gave you is the correct answer. I will not change what penance is to appease you. So take it or leave it. But understand that you sound very much like the pharisees and saducees when Christ answered their questions and didn't understand him. Instead they tried to hide under the scriptures only to be told that they are blind.

Never allow the class to terrify you, but terrify the class, just like viee rightly said you will be surprised that you will score more than the former score.

Thank you this is very encouraging.

Guys I feel a bit down, I lost my phone today, but not just because I absolutely need it and it's the way of getting in touch with me, but because it costs $599.99 and I was giving it to my brother for his bday, he loves it, he'll be so heartbroken.

But how's everyone doing? I know I came late, everyone's probably asleep.

I love the catholics but I disagree with the catholic system. I am yet to find their system in the bible.

Believing in God and his Son is not a system.

It is nice to know what you believe in and why you believe and how your salvation came to be.
It is nice to know the mysteries of your faith.

Catholics know all of the above

If you find yourself in a situation where you are in a late stage severe cancer that is usually painful even with morphine, will you not accept to be injected to death so you can rest in peace?

ALL life is sacred, not some, but ALL. And all deserve a chance to live. If there is a way to survive then survive.

You are also suggesting that SeanT12 should just believe, whereas she want explanation that the mind can grasp. Please explain Trinity, which is not in the Bible. And you will see how it will defiles all other Biblical verses that will work against it. Please try to do it. I want you to keep Mark 12 Verse 29, in mind, which actually rails against trinity. At least Mark 12 verse 29, will give us the inkling that Jesus is not one of the Gods of the Christians. Considering that Jesus was saying that he, included with his audience have the same Lord who is One God!

Like I said when you understand the Trinity you will see that those verses which you claim contradict don't contradict at all.
I will go into detail when I get home

It is not conclusive that there was a car in front of the red car. If there was, you would have told me that it was, since you mentioned the red car, while talking about the goat.

Um no, the focal point is that I saw a goat posted next to a red car, I do not need to tell you that there's a car in front of the red car, I also don't need to tell you that there's a coffee shop downtown, I also don't need to tell you that it is opposite a bank and right next to the bank is a place i used to work for, and next to that is construction going on for a new condominium, and next to that is another bank and opposite that is a park.
Do you get my point?
It is completely irrelevant to the point that there is a goat posted next to the red car. if i go on to mention all these you may forget that the main point is the goat posted next to the red car.

Goat and car are not likely to relate together in downtown tallahassee

point is just because i don't mention something does not mean it is not there. i stay on the focal point and that is there is a goat posted next to a red car.

If the christians don't share this belief, then they are saying something that they do not believe in the first place. That is not good. How can three not be separate and different from one? Please help me with accounting or actuary behind it.

No that's just what YOU think Christians believe. I have told you many times that they are separate from one another as you would see two things next to each other with your physical eye.

I have to run, will be back

im so sorry 4 what you had to go trough. But by reading your story, i can tell that you are a strong woman. Never give up, and i know you will graduate! what are you studying if i may ask?

Thanks. I am studying accounting.

where i come from, we don't believe in juju, but id have to say that not only "we" don't believe in it, but that our enemies don't believe in it either. I'm not sure if i am making myself clear. If you grow up without knowing what juju is, and no one does, nobody will ever use it against the other.

yeah I didn't believe in it either, I thought it was in the movies only until I experienced it myself. My mum doesn't believe in it as in she doesn't see need for it, but unfortunately she married into a family that are firm believers of using juju.

i just hope that one day people will realize that doing harm to somebody else is doing harm to yourself as well!

I hope they realise it too.

Hahahaha, this is true.

But I don't see how this applies to Priests though, they own nothing.

Perhaps you want to give answers to the questions you ask me then. This is a clever muslim tactic.

Lol at your insecurity. I can definitely answer the questions that I ask you.

Christ's cross was prepared, His captors took Him to all the necessary authorities before He was crucified, He was scourged, railed at, spat at - those are all rites?

Well let's see, since Christ wasn't the only one crucified and not the first and there was a systematic way of doing it, then yes it is also a rite.
I am going by your definition of rite  -  prescribed words or manner in which something is done right?

Well since some crucifixion were not in the form of X but in the form of the Cross as we know it, then yes it is a manner in which it was done and so was the burial of Christ. It was in the manner done in those days by the Jews and it also had to be done before the sabbathh.

Salvation requires that you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth - it is also a rite?

Well let's see, since to receive salvation you have to confess your sins, get baptised, and walk in the footsteps of Christ, then yes it would be a rite.

Dear, Baptism is NO ceremony. Read the book of acts . . . have you read Phillips baptism of the Eunuch on the road to damascus?
What preparation did they need? I'll remind you again - Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
   37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
   38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Even Phillip wasnt thinking of baptism, they didnt need any special preparation . . . all that was required was water and a redeemed soul!

Yet he had to baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and he had to dip the eunuch in water so it still counts as a rite.

Do you know that there are actually 2 TWO baptisms? Please read the book of acts.

Ah see, in order to receive slavation you have to get baptised twice. It is a rite, all these are according to your definition

This is the definition of a rite

a formal or ceremonial act or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use: rites of baptism; sacrificial rites.

It doesn't have to be in a ceremony but it has to be a prescribed or customary act.

They are NOT rites, its like saying salvation is a rite, its like saying Christ's crucifiction on the cross was a rite.
This is how the dictionary defines a rite - a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony

Hmm and here I am thinking that in baptism, you actually get yourself prepared and that the words "I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are used and then the person is dipped into the water.

I wonder won't that be called words of a rite or actions of a rite and won't baptism be a ceremony.

There is a prescribed form or manner governing baptism. You are baptised "in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit" and then you are dipped into the water. That is done with everyone, that is the manner in which baptism is done.

And it is not from man but from God himself. Those are the words of Christ himself, and that is the manner in which John the Baptist baptised.

Don't go quoting words out of context be careful not to loose your grip on God, because dear in your quest you are doing just that. You have started citing God's words to go against God's words and you are being cautioned, if you are Christian you should know better than to go abusing the word of God.

where again ma'am are the answers to the 6 questions i asked earlier? Dodging as usual while pretending to be asking questions?

Oh ye of little patience, did it ever occur to you that I have to post and then go back several pages to quote you and then come and modify?

But I will say this again, because I went through and answered all your questions in great detail, but because of your anger and impatience you skipped it all only to come back asking the same questions.
Tell me why I should even bother with you when you're not willing to read what I write?

But Ihave patience, and I will ask that if you want we can tackle each question you have one by one until you have received the true answer.

If there's anything you should know about me on this board is that I don't dodge.

Looking at the answer given to you and seeing that it is not the answer you want and then shaking your head saying "No that is not it" won't get you far.

The Bible says alot about he who does not like reproof.

Skipping the answers I gave you will get us no where.
So I gave you another option of giving the interpretations of every verse that I have presented to you, you claimed that you would but didn't instead you continued in your usual rant. I am still waiting for the interpretations.

I think it will be best if you give the answers. Trust me you will answer it yourself. Either that or you show that you really are not looking for answers, but criticism of the Catholic Church

Sacrament - religious rite.
Madam does it occur to you that christianity is not a religion but a way of life for the apostles who were so christened because they were like Christ? Where in the bible did the apostles talk of sacraments as a rite?

You have clearly missed baptism, isn't that a rite in the Christian faith?
You've also missed reconciliation, isn't this too a rite in the Christian faith?
(I am really waiting for you to say no, so that you can be exposed as a non-christian)

Please ma, you still havent defined what penance is . . . all you've done so far is dance around. You say it is the same as repentance . . . but WHY does it have a special place in the catholic church or where they just playing around with names?

If you discredit penance, you discredit repentance, you discredit reconciliation, you discredit confession. We just happen to have a structure and an actual understanding of reconciliation.

Is it not true that the living can pay money as penance for the dead to absolve them of their sins?

NO.

That's what you've been brainwashed to think. Please pick up your bible, Peter was married, brother Phillip had two daughters who also prophesied . . . why are your priests celibate? The bible talks of the bishops being husbands of one wife (not compulsory) but why is yours radically different?

1 Corinthians 7: 6-9
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

There are other Bible verses, but this is the one I can think of off head, I will come back later on to add more to this.
Especially the one about virgins being concerned about the things of God and married people be concerned about things of the world, how to please their husband and wife.

Look it is not compulsory for men to be priests they have 10 years to make up their mind. If they want to marry thenthey won't be priests if they don't want to marry then they can become priests.

Now if you will please allow me to finish and stop turning a blind eye to what I post before you.
If you want we can tackle each issue one by one until we go through each of them. Since you don't have patience.
Let me know which one you want to tackle first.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:28
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine
Mark 1:22
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes

The doctrines that are being taught today are the doctrines that were taught then. Unless you want to claim that the doctrines taught by the disciples and apostles are doctrines of men. Well there goes your basis of truth.

Parish, christian community, mass . . . brilliant religious words . . . empty of spiritual meaning.

Then the basis of your belief in empty

perhaps you're reading something else

Where have your priests done as the apostles by going to the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the gospel rather than cocoon themselves in stone buildings?
Where have they gone out healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out unclean spirits?
Where have they cleansed lepers and cast out demons?
Why are they so fixated on forgiving sins and hearing confessions? Why do they want to usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit?

Your words not mine.

Those candles are there for a reason . . . if you don't know its ok to say so instead of prevaricating.
Look at the ridiculous examples you bring up, is a bed placed in front of every church?

One more time, HAHAHA DUDE YOU REALLY THINK CANDLES ARE USED TO DRIVE OUT DEMONS.
Almighty, since you know why don't you share with us the reason they're there.

Demons are not driven out in front of a church.

Being a pastor isnt my calling. Just 2 examples:
- Vicarius Filli Dei
- confessions

I asked for proof, where is it?

sigh. What has this got to do with the issues? If my pastor sins why should i remain under one with whom the anointing is departed? He will answer for his iniquity on the last day.

Atheists also do charity not so? What is the difference between they and mother Theresa? not much especially for a woman who once confessed feeling spiritually empty

I asked because you gave a non chalant attitude as to the actions of your pastor, so I asked if you don't care that means you will remain in his church learning from him even while he is doing all these things. But thanks for your answer. I am satisfied.

The difference is that they don't believe or have faith in God.

This isnt about me. Seems this discussion is pettering out into silliness. If you can't biblically address the issues just say so.

HAHAHA Dude you've been silly from the beginning and this is about you, it is about me and it is about the Church. Remember "they shall all be one, just as you and me are one?" When you decided on Christianity you joined the Church.

I have bibically addressed the issues and have used common sense but you lack both, and that's why we're still going on about it. You also lack patience, you should really ask the Spirit for that gift.

Madam . . . wedding rites and funeral rites are not mandatory church/biblical "rites". Please show me where Peter was performing elaborate burial rites? How did Mary and Martha bury Lazarus? Who was the minister in charge?
When Christ was buried, who preached the sermon at His gravesite?

I marvel at the level to which manmade nonsense has insidously entered christendom.

oh man I wish I had my Bible with me, I would open up the passages for you so that your eyes can be open, and you calim to read the Bible, shame on you. I will definitely come and post it up.

Read it again and stop asking frivolous questions.

Since I don't know the truth, why don't you tell me?
That's what's wrong with Christians today, when someone asks a question they jump and say read on it, well maybe the person read on it and doesn't understand, isn't that when you come in and explain?
Funny the Church explains everything in great detail for anyone to understand and she's underscrutiny for it.
Those who criticise are asked to explain then, but all they do is say read.

If you said you would call tomorrow and failed to because of circumstances beyond your control would that qualify as offending Christ?

If it offends you, YES!!!

Forgiveness is by the blood and blood alone . . . did Christ give you His blood to dispense as you will too?

Jesus already shed his blood and then was able to send them as the Father sent him. Look cling to the passage your clinging to and forsake the other passages in the Bible, that is entirely your own.

Since you know the truth, will you please give a "proper" interpretation of the Bible verses and stop pointing blame. Since you have knowledge share it.

your heresy is what is clear as day. Read your bible instead of relying on mass only.

I doubt you read the Bible more than I do.

I didnt put the verse there, ask Christ when you see Him.

Oh but you believe that verse, infact you even quoted the verse for me.
So why not explain it to me, since I lack knowledge.

Every man born of water and of the spirit and filled with the Holy Ghost has the authority to minister the gospel

Yet Timothy was given a charge and the Bible doesn't fail to highlight that. If you're going to be giving examples or qouting scripture the least you could do is understand it and back it up with explanations. Running won't do any good.
Ididn't bring up Timothy, you did to prove a point, well it has backfired on you.

What does apostle mean by the way?

Oh Lord. We have the power to lay hands on others to recieve the Holy Spirit . . . we are NOT the givers but merely the vessels through which it is given.

Oh for real? I thought that Christ was the one who could baptise with the Spirit. Infact John the Baptist wasn't even fit to loosen his sandals.
Matthew 3:11
11"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

How then could these mere men who are not God able to baptise with the Spirit when even John the Baptist couldn't?

Maybe it's because as the Father sent Christ so Christ sent the Disciples, so the things that Christ could do the disciples could do too. As the Father charged Christ, so Christ charged the disciples.

The words you use are also used for forgiveness, we are not the givers but the vessels through which it is given.

Forgiveness of sin (which is eternally of confusion to you) is by the blood. Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hehehe look yourself in the mirror.

Madam this is clear as daylight except to the spiritually blind . . . the remission of sins can only occur through the blood of a testator. Please read the entire book of Hebrews to see why you don't have the power to forgive sins because YOU are not the testator neither are you the one who shed blood for sin.

So is this: As the Father sent me, so I send you, received the Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you do not forgive are not forgiven them

Biko nu, why would Christ encourage the disciples not to forgive sins when he's already said if you forgive, the Father will forgive you too, so why would he go against his own teaching here (with your interpretation, Christ goes against his own teaching)

Why do you think the pharisees thot Christ blasphemed for telling the lame man his sins were forgiven him? Didnt they know that everyone could forgive sin?

Now imagine this coming from your own mouth about the disciples and apostles and priests today. Do you see that you sound just like a Pharisee?
If not your're in denial.

Christ! Even the pharisees werent these blind!

I agree

Its up to you to show us in the pages of the bible not in the pages of some pope's notes.

When did I quote a Pope?
When did 1Peter 3:18-20 become Popes notes?
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Are you sure you're not blind?

we don't. if we had the power Christ would not have come. Why do you think the old testament jews needed the blood of bulls and goats once a yr? why could they not just attend mass and have the prophet absolve them of their sins?

But you're accusing the Catholics of it.
Are you sure you don't have multiple personalities, or amnesia, because you're beginning to forget what you say.

I don't mind being naive, its better than being blind. There is judgement for sin which is death. That we are not struck dead the minute we open our mouths to lie is by the mercy and grace of our Father.
I can't believe a christian still have problems with such simple issues as this.
The fact that grace abounds does not mean we shld abuse it and believe we will always be safe even when we sin . . . read Paul's brilliant expose on this in Romans 6.

You know what you are a hypocrite. YES!!!! I AM CALLING YOU OUT. You accuse me of not answering your questions, which I have done, but you have not answered my questions. Stop dodging and answer. or has the Spirit convicted you already?

Ah when we lose coherence we resort to abuse? reminds me of blabs787, and to think YOU were busy criticizing him when you were basically clueless about your own scriptures.

Answer the questions and stop being daft.

A primary school child wont reason this way.   God didnt do creation all over again, He created man in His own image, man fell and God had to find a way to redeem man to Himself again . . . duh!

Oh but with your reasoning He did. So are you smarter than a 5th grader?lol.

I'm not hiding any face ma'am . . . rather YOU are the one dodging issues

oh yes, I've been dodging issues by answering your questions, whereas you haven't been dodging issues by not answering my questions.
Smart reasoning eh.

Madam those where the questions until you decietfully tried to turn this into meaningless brickbats!

If I show you where I answered your questions would you apologise for lying?

typical olabowale . . . "now address this issue" as if she addressed the real issues that initially precipitated the discourse. Start with the questions asked you first.

Quite frankly I have more respect for Olabowale, he at least knows what and why he believes in what he believes. You are just a lost puupy.

Perhaps English language was invented in their day? What a dumb assertion. Where is vicarius filli dei in your bible?
Where is penance in your bible? Where is purgatory in your bible? where is mary refered to as queen of heaven in your bible?

Yet it was your defense. How can something you use to defend your belief come back to haunt you? Isn't it the truth?