₦airaland Forum

So you are able to discern that slavery is wrong without recourse to the laws of god?

No you are able to discern that slavery is wrong in regards to the laws of God.

How is it possible for humans to know of the great thing "love" is without instructions from god?

I don't understand your question. Are you asking how humans are supposed to know of the great thing love without it being an instruction from God? Because it is an instruction from God, you must have missed that part.

Tell, if you told Abraham or Moses or any other Jews who owned slaves then that slavery was wrong, how would you have have to justify your reasoning? What defense would they have had against your position?

First of all, the slavery of that day was of servitude, u know like houseboy, housegirl, or maid, not the one invented by white people for oppression.

Don't mistakenly think that the context in which words are used today are the same context in which they were used back then.
For example brothers, sisters referred to blood brothers, sisters as well as cousins and nephews and such and in the hebrew language there is no word for cousin only for brother and sister. Unlike today and in the english language where you have the words cousins and brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces as separate words.

Lack of understanding of the tone in which people back then spoke has led to a lot of controversy in the Christian faith, that is why the Protestant Christians feel like crucifying the Catholic Christian for their beliefs. They lack the understanding of the time in which their Holy Book was written and therefore lack understanding in what is contained and what is meant.
Understanding history is an important factor in understanding the Bible.

It does become difficult however, because the Isrealites were freed from slavery. That's the kind of slavery that is condemned. The one that is meant to inflict harm or oppression on a people or the one that goes against the will of the person.

During the time of Abraham and Moses slaves were actually treated as family and if a person had no sons or daughters their possessions usually transfered to their slaves.

I hope this helps.

Correction, Jesus was never in the grave for three days, I wonder why christians propagate this falsehood.

He was in the tomb, it is equivalent of what we call grave today. Not everyone today is put six feet under also, but it still doesn't change the fact that they're dead.

JESUS WAS IN A CAVE FROM FRIDAY EVENING AROUND 9:00PM TO AROUND 4:00 AM SUNDAY MORNING, because jewish custom forbids crucifixion on their holy day, sabbath (Saturday). That was why the death of the three convicts had to be accelerated by breaking their legs, ( curiously they did not break Jesus's Legs).

Yup his legs weren't broken and there is a reason why? He was still to resurrect and he needed his legs to walk. It was prophecied that not a bone of his body was to be broken. But nonetheless, Jesus was already dead when they came around to break the legs of the crucified. They saw that Jesus was dead and decided to pierce his sides just to be sure, in the position and angle in which they did, it is very possible that they pierced his heart. So he was truly dead.

So in effect he "died" for about 30 HOURS (one and a quarter days) and not three days (72 hours)

So in effect he was dead for 72 hours.

Proof as to how this is true?

So there are some things which are wrong which god has not commanded them to be wrong?  How do we know what such things are?

Hi Huxley, the simplest form that I see fit to answer your questions is that we are called to love. We are called to love God and our neighbour and ourselves. By nflicting pain on others you do not love them. Slavery is wrong because it inflicts mental, emotional, and physical pain.

The wrongs don't have to be higlighted or listed out in order for you to know that it is wrong. But paying attention to the commandments of God, you will see that in all of them is love. The opposite of love is hate and when you hate you cause harm, whatever will cause harm to yourself or others and in so doing to God because we are God's creation and it breaks his heart when we hurt, is wrong.


God's Spirit helps us to discern also. His Spirit helps convicts us, but that is only for those who believe in God and his Word.

Confusion.
It is sad, and was predicted too. I believe Pope Leo X warned Martin that if he broke away there would be many more divisions and contradictions in the Christian faith. I'll have to check and make sure it is true.

Unfortunately the churches arising today are for personal gain

and Lady I expected more from you, to use the word "brilliant" to describe huxley's enquiry, when you know he's only seeking to discredit christianity

I applaud him bringing up the question, why? Because he approached it with thought. I do like it when people even try to discredit Christianity, it gives God a chance to do something great. God cannot be discredited.

I am a Christian but I also like thought. He gave a suitable rebuttal and I applaud it.

Jesus fulfilled the law by destroying it (is this simple statement too complex for your mind to comprehend?), replacing it with the New covenant, a covenant based on grace and faith in Christ. There is no contradiction here.

You're going to have to give more insight into it. How did he fulfill the law by destroying? What is the law? Don't forget Jesus is the law? Going by your response, did Jesus destroy himself?
The ark of the covenant is called that for what reason What was contained in the ark?
To my knowledge the covenant or law contained in the ark is the ten commandments. Did Jesus destroy the ten commandments? Keep in mind that these questions arose from your response. Explain your response to me please.

The same way that followers of the "Prince of Peace" can pick and choose who to treat well and who to treat like dirt. Also, the fact that the Bible's many contradictions and inhumane text have allowed it to be used by many power structures as a scare tactic to keep the masses in control and in the dark. People of african descent, slaves, women, poor people, rich people, gay people and many others have all been persecuted due to the manipulators of this rigid belief system. The worst is that after doing all of that, many feel free to sweep other "sins" under the rug (premarital sex, infidelity, lying, etc), accepting them as "natural" or "inevitable" and continue to preach about "love" and "peace" ( i.e: God forgives all sins, blah, blah, blah). Lets face it: many "Christians" beliefs don't coincide with Christ teachings. Which is why they skip over the "love your neighbor" part in the Bible and go right part they claim "prove" their hateful opinions concerning sexuality. There are very few people that really live up to Christ's teachings and even they can tell you it's more than rare that they ever see other "real Christians".

BRILLIANT POINT!!!!!!

We're not all perfect, but what annoys me is that some Christians only apply "forgiveness" to themselves. Forgiveness is for all.
Gay acts should be condemned, but gay people should be welcomed. Only through love and unwavering faith can we show them the way to God.
It is not through hatred and condemnation, but through love.
Christ sat and ate with the sinners.
It is my opinion from observations that some Christians today have become modern day "Pharisees" they are self-righteous sinners.

Why are you ignoring the following passage from Jesus, in Matthew 5;

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Pharisees were exacting sticklers for the law. Basically, Jesus is asking that you become more observant for the law that the Pharisees.

Why Why Why are you guys ignoring Jesus my holy Christ

Thank you for this question. It is very brilliant. I would like to see how people answer this. I am very grateful for you asking about this. I brought it up and David jumped on my neck quoting other passages in the Bible.

I still stand that the Bible isn't contradictory but the interpretation of it by so called Christians is.

) Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
2) Exodus 22:29 �Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.�
3) All of Leviticus

1. do you advocate the cursing of mother and father? that is a great abomination. no one has to lay hands on you, one way or the other you will pay for it and even by your own hands or your children's hands.
2 how is given ripe fruits and liquors to God evil? God didn't ask that we kill firstborn, but that we offer them as servers of the Lord. Today we consecrate our children unto God, you do not hear of people killing their children, but taking them to Church and promising God to raise them accoding to his laws. That is giving your firtsborn sons to him. In that time they were to be servers in the house of God, as priests or more.
3 You have to be specific.

Huxley,

In order for you to understand those verses you quoted you must first know the difference in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
You must also know why today some of these laws don't apply in Christianity.

Christ said that we shouldn't divorce, when questioned about why divorce was allowed in the law of Moses, he said it was allowed because of the hardness of the man's heart.

These laws were set aside when Christ came because he came to restore things to their rightful order. Men are to love their wives and care for them even to the point of sacrificing themselves for them. Wives are to be supportive of her husband and love him in all conditions, stand by him even when the going gets tough and not ridicule him.

Even though God wants us to do all good and only good, he knows that we have minds of our own and we can make our own choices. He created humans and not robots. What the people wanted he gave them. Even though he is the creator he does not trample on our free will. It hurts him and breaks his heart when we don't stay true to him. But he shows us great mercy in all anyway when we are ready to turn to him.

It is like our parents. They raise us and we have a set of guidelines to live our lives by, but as we grow up we sometimes become stubborn trying to do things on our own without even seeking help form our parents. We chart our own course in life and set our own rules. Even though our parents think we are going in the wrong direction, they allow us to, because when they step in they know that they will only receive a rebellion from us. They know that we have our own minds and our own will so they let us be and agree to let us have things the way we want. In due time we will turn to them for help, for guidance.

That is how God is, that is also how he is the FATHER. Even though he would like us to do things his way, he knows that we would want to do it our way and so he lets us, and he watches us and just when we are about to fall flat on our faces we scream for help and he is there to help us. He is there to catch us and at that moment we realise that he has been right all along.

That is how the Old Testament is. God permitted the Jews to have it their way, he allowed things to be done because he knows that only when they fall will they learn. When they had been through just about everything, sufferring oppression for centuries from foreign rulers, God sent help, the savior. He sent a redeemer to show them the way out of the bondage that they have put themselves in because of the hardness of their hearts. But only those who recognized that they had truly fallen and have been stubborn and that God had sent a redeemer were able to know who the redeemer is. The rest were too proud and arrogant.

Women are not being punished by God by asking them to be in submission to men because Eve gave the fruit to Adam.
Women were created as helpers and as a mate for the man. Not the other way round. Because women are tender and softer than men, men are supposed to be the protectors of women. Women are not supposed to be abandoned by the men. Men are supposed to understand the nature of the woman and cater to her needs. While the woman is to understand the man and stand by him and support him.

They are each other's helpmate.

Javalove, isn't the quran the book that says men should beat their wives?
Your hypocrisy stinks everywhere.

MC Usman, don't let me share the teachings of the quran on women, if taken literally it is worse. But I am sure that there's an explanation of it and that it shouldn't be taken literally but the Bible should be taken literally, the stench of hypocrisy from muslims is too strong to bear.

Did you read the above? He was going to the father because the Father sent him and He is greater than him. Jesus couldnt change the will of God.

Ok so who said he was going to, Christians didn't say that. Will you please stop laying false claims or false beliefs on the Christians

You claimed that he was begotten and not made like Human beings. What about other prophets in the bible that were begotten?  There is nowhere that shows that he exited since creation. What do you have to say to these that were begotten as well:

Hebrew 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Psalms 2:7: "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

1. I don't think you know what begotten means. If you did you would see that you just supported the belief of Christ being the Son of God. I ~Lady~ am begotten of my father and my mother. You babs787 are begotten of your father and your mother. Do you get the point now. Isaac is the begotten son of Abraham, how so? Because Isaac is Abraham's seed.

2. Psalm 2:7 is actually speaking of Christ, let me give you the full chapter for you to ponder.
1 Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?
2 Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his annointed (in hebrew mashiah; in greek Christos, whence in english meaning Messiah and Christ, now we know only one man bears both titles)
3 "Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains"
4 The one enthroned in heaven laughs; the LORD derides them,
5 Then speaks to them in anger, terrifies them in wrath:
6"I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain."
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, "You are my son; today I am your father.
8 Only ask of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possessions the ends of the earth.

Now this passage could also apply to king David, but we all know that he isn't the Messiah and Christ.

QURAN 4:171: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”

You might want to learn from Olabowale how much disregard I have for the quran. Quoting it doesn't prove your point. You might want to cease from qouting it because I will ridicule it and hurt your feelings in the process. It has no basis in this discussion. If we were discussing it I would give it more respect, but since we are not, cease from quoting it.

Sister, how did the word become Jesus  . Have you forgotten that the holy spirit is the angel that God uses to send message to his prophets.  The 'be', you referred to is Kufayah Kun. Whe God desires somehing, he would just say Be and it would be.

Ok you will do well not to bring Islamic teaching in this discussion, asking me questions based on the Islamic teaching will get you no answer. WHy? because I don't believe in the Islamic teaching,I know it and highly disagree with it, why? because ot makes no sense. Do not ask me if I have forgotten that the holy spirit is the angel that God uses, why?  because 1 The Holy Spirit is not the angel, so no I have not forgotten because I didn't even know it as that and I know that it is not that. The "be" is not kufuyah kun, because the angel did not speak arabic to Mary. Mary did not speak arabic.
The Word is the law of God, the commandments that God had given all along. When he spoke to the prophets that was his word and it is that word that became incarnated in the womb of Mary. You have God, you have God's Word, and you have God's Spirit. Saying that the Spirit is an angel, is saying that God is not a Spirit but an angel. An angel cannot dwell in us, but the Holy Spirit can and he does (well among true Christians).

Jesus is the law. You know the law don't you? What we call the commandments of God? Yes it is that which we call Jesus, It has always been there, it didn't start existing when it was born into the flesh as your false prophet has already alleged you to believe.

Nothing shows that he existed before.

Oh a lot shows that he existed before.

Daniel 7:13-14

13 As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like the son of man (in human form) coming, and on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One (God) and was presented before him,
14 He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him.
HIs dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship not be destroyed.

The Father is reavealed in the Son in the flesh.

Just because you don't want to acknowledge it, does not mean it is not there. I really do feel sorry for you. Muhamad has really twisted your mind.

No, you got it wrong. The advocate couldnt have been the holy spirit because you yourself cofirmed that the holy spirit has been in existence since creation.

How does that mean that the advocate couldn't have been the Spirit. The advocate is not in the flesh, it is not in human form.
Here is the verse that you muslims love to quote to prove your point:
John 14
15 If you love me you will keep my commandments
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will send you another Advocate to be with you always.

What you all fail to realise is that Christ continues to describe the advocate:

17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees it nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

The Spirit is not a human, so no it is not Muhamad.

We all can read the plain english that must have plain meaning as it is from your Bible that the Hebrew Verse came from. There is no need for any twist and turn and interpretation. It is direct and plain enough. If one quote the bible, it is simply to show you how convoluted it is. Going this way and going that way, but forgeting that it actually is contradicting itself! We could have cared less for the bible, except that no one will like to hide the truth from his fellow men, especially that Islam has enjoined the muslims to make effort in letting people know the truth

First of all it amazes me that you claim we can all read in plain english, when you have already exercised that you cannot differentiate between speakers in dialogue. You've already demonstrated that you don't understand simple tense in the english language. So to me understanding the english language is something that you lack.

Second, I asked him to not misinterpret the verse in the Bible. Reading through his posts this is odd man out on his point, that is why I let him know that I wasn't sure what his point is. This verse was not in anyway supportinve of his point. That was confusing to me.
You don't try to make a point on the economy of a country and use religious matters to explain the price of oil. That is what he did here. He used a verse that was completely irrelevant to his point, which to me is suspicious. He would use anything to ridicule the Christian faith.

NO WEARING OF LIPSTICK DURING HOLY COMMUNION SERVICE OR YOU WILL BE SKIPPED!!! LMAO!!!

LOLOL. Where did you get that from?
I do have to say it is a bit annoying though when women wear such heavy lipsticks and drink the wine. It seems no matter how much the lay person wipes the lipstick doesn't want to come off. I wonder where they make those lipsticks. It's Super Lipstick.

Well,well,well. Davidylan again. I have told you that whether you claim this book is false or not, it makes no difference. But instead of you to sit quietly on your PC or is it Mac to digest these chapters and possibly print the,you come day in,day out to critisize. Why? Is it not because you don't like truth yet you claim you love Jesus. You wont read from what Jesus said you rather prefer the paraphased changed

Ok seriosuly this is rubbish. This gospel is not the truth. Either you are completely desperate or just plain blind to see that this book is not the truth. I don't understand why it is you would even advocate a book that blasphemes your own "word of God". It is utter disrespect to God that you would even consider this book to be true or to hold an ounce of truth.
You do need to be careful, in your quest of discrediting Christians you discredit God. You have done so from the beginning.
It is not good to go to dig a pit for your fellow man, in doing so you become blind to the pit in front of you and you fall into it, so who's the fool in that case. Let me give you a hint: It is you

I will just like to say that the Nigerians in America who are eligible to vote (99.9% of them) are in support of Obama. Those who are not eligible to vote are also in support of Obama.

If Obama wins I will be happy, if McCain wins I might be rich.

1. Why this topic? There are so many more like it
2. Where does it say that women can't wear trousers? Not all trousers are suited for men, thanks.
3. Do you know that men didn't wear trousers back in the day and what they wore were skirts?
4 So should those men, e.g. Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the Apostles, and so on be punished for not wearing a trouser?
5 Did you know that Jesus wore skirts SHOCKING EH.


Honestly the stupidity of people do not amaze me, well not anymore.

You answered no, when you were asked if your god punished himself in order to forgive, saved or salvage you! Then you turn around and say that te same god sacrificed himself for you. Read it again. Read it again. Lets think together: If this god of yours was wiped until a whole bunch of laxarations covered his body and blood gushed out as if it was water fountain. If they put on his head a wreath of thorns, and then make him carried his execution material, the cross, until he is tired that he was dragging the cross.


If he then in the long run was wiped and then mounted on the cross and nailed hard on it. If he was then exhausted and then finally cried out, my God (indicating that he was talking to another God, apart and separate from himself), my God (a repeat of the first), why has thou forsaken me?. And then he gave up the ghost. Would you therefore state that that was not punishments that he experienced, throughout and along the way?


Would you then suggest that he enjoyed it? If he did not enjoy it, since he showed sign of fatigue and weariness, then he must have suffered! No one suffered and denied that he was not punished. The only people who will suffer and say it is not punishment, are the sadists. Tell me what you mean.

My guess is you don't know what sacrifice means, so let me give it to you: Sacrifice is the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

Sacrifice is not meant to be enjoyed. That's the whole point of sacrifice. My mother is a single mother who works two jobs so that her children will make it in life. She wants to go out and but nice dresses for herself. She wants to buy a Lexus (I am planning on getting her one soon), she wants to leave work by 5pm and come home to relax. She wants to come home to sleep and listen to music and read a book, she wants to go out with her friends, she wants to engage in girl's night out. She also wants the best for her children, she wants them to succeed in life. She wants them to lack nothing. She wants them to smile everyday. She wants them to be comfortable. So she works two jobs, she comes home at night and gets up at dawn and starts all over again. She is always on her feet. SHe recently had surgery, she was supposed to be in recovery for 6 weeks, before the end of 2 weeks she was already up on her feet. Why? Because she had bills to pay. She needed to make sure that her kids have a roof over her head, she needed to buy them clothes and schools supplies, she needed to drive them to sleepovers and volleyball games. My sister had to go for training and my mother had to come up with the money to send her there. My siblings wanted to go visit my aunt who just had a baby (thank God) my mother saved up money to send them there. I had a car crash, today I am driving a car my mother just bought. My mother sacrifices so that her children donot have to turn to immoral things such as drugs and crime and prostitution to get what they want. She bought a house in the suburbs so that her kids won't grow up in the inner city of atlanta, she is paying a lot to commute two hours a day to and from work and she drives a van, I am sure you can tell how much gas she is using up each day.
She doesn't get paid much, but she doesn't do the things that she wants because she would rather have her children happy.

That is sacrifice. Sacrifice is doing what you don't enjoy. Do you think my mum enjoys working two jobs and getting less sleep? Do you think she enjoys putting her goals on hold for her children? I can tell you that she doesn't. Talking to her and knowing her pains, physically and emotionally, my mother is definitely sacrificing.

Imagine how much more it means if God himself was the one sacrificing. AND HE DID. Whether you think it is possible or not, he did it. History has proven it. His crucixion is known to have happened, his death is known to have happened. I am sure they wouldn't have wrapped him up and prepared him for burial if they thought he was dead or did you forget that part.
God does not work on human reasoining. That is why he is God. We shift our reasoning to him and not him to ours, that would make him like us in every sense of the word, not just in body but in spirit, God is not like us. He doesn't think the way we do, so the part about him not being capable to come in the form of a human is human reasoning. He can take the form of a human, because no human can look upon the face of God and live. If Muhamad truly spoke to God and saw him he should have died and Islam won't be known today. But I do know that it was the angel that Muhamad spoke to and not God himself. If you will dismiss the Bible as not the word of God, then you must also dismiss the quran.

Regardless of whether your mind can comprehend it, God did walk this earth in human form and he did suffer for our sins. He sent a clear message to the devil and he let him know the extent he is willing to go to fight for his children. That is LOVE.

I AM HAPPY BEING LOVED BY GOD, but my heart bleeds because your god doesn't love you. You worship him but he doesn't love you, he is like a human king who wants his subjects to obey his command and worship him, yet he won't fight for them when they are in need, and he won't protect them. Infact when there's a battle he puts them in the front line to die.

I am sorry that even wihtout sinning there is a separation between you and your god. But there's no separation between me and mine. Staying true to his word, he embraces me and keeps me close and protects me. He put a shield around me and a clear warning to the devil not to trespass.

I AM HAPPY BEING LOVED BY GOD.


Something I wanted to point out, it is the reason why I actually came back today.
You mentioned mark 12 v. 29

I went back and read it, and I see that it is a verse that I have explained to you to the point where I did an exercise to see if you can discern who is speaking in a sentence in the english language.
I am highly disappointed in you, because you brought it up again with the same ignorance that I dispelled from you, apparently I didn't.

Mark 12 v. 29 (I will post the verses before it, so that the clear picture will be there)

28 One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, "Which is the first of all the commandments?"
29 Jesus replied, "This is the first: 'Hear, O Isreal! The Lord our God is Lord alone!
20 You shall love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.'

This does not in any way imply that Jesus was saying that he is not God.
I would like for you to show me that he is saying that he is not God. Because if I pick up the ten commandments and say exactly what it says out of my own mouth " I the Lord am your God, you shall have no other god before me" does this mean that I am saying that I am going because it is coming out of my mouth?
That is the reasoning you have brought here. Because it came out of Jesus' mouth it must mean that he was saying that he's not God.

Have you ever heard of speaking in the third person. If I come and say "~Lady~ is a nice person and she likes going shopping, she loves ALDO because they have nice sandals." Does that mean that I am not talking about myself?

Notice that Christ is quoting the law.

Come up with a better reason why this passage states that Jesus is saying that he is not God. All this passage does is state that the first commandment is that The Lord is God and he alone should be worshipped

I was woken from sleep this morning with this in mind:

Does God punish himself before he can forgive a sin done against him?

I don't know why God placed it in my mind at that particular time, but I jumped up frommy bed immediately and tried to see if I could gain access to the internet through my computer at home. I couldn't.

But I want to comment on this.

God never punished himself. This only shows me how much you don't understand Christianity. The crucifixion was not a punishment from God. It was the punishment from man. Jesus did no wrong yet he was punished because man couldn't handle the truth and refused to listen. They were so caught up "keeping the law" that they didn't realise that they were against the law. They were so caught up trying "to look good in showing off that they keep the law" that they missed the law himself. They were busy judging people based on who went to the sanctuary more and who stood at all times on the corner praying and who gave more alms, not realising that the law is not set to please man or look good in front of man but to please God and show him that you love him enough to listen to him, you love him enough to not take away his power from him.

That is why when Olabowale asked me if Christ told us how to clean ourselves after sexual impact, I laughed. It is not about the clothes you were or how you yawn or how to position yourself to pass feces or how you wash yourself after sex. These things won't get you to heaven. But loving God will, loving yourself will, loving your neighbor will.

It is because God loves us that he sacrificed himself, not punish himself. Can you imagine a greater love than this. Imagine if your father saw you going down the wrong path and he knows the only way to save you from it is if he sacrifices for you, that is love. Parents do it every day, when they sacrifice what it is they want so that their children can have it better than they did or so that their children can be happy.
So is the love of God.
Imagine that he loves us that much to sacrifice himself for us. That is the God that I serve, that is the God that I worship. I am sorry that your god doesn't love you enough to do so, but mine does.
He knows that I cannot do it by myself and he knows that I will fall even though I have pledged myself to him. He knows me better than myself. He knows that even when I tell myself that I won't do it, that I may do it and it would be in a form that I don't even recognise that I am doing it. So he made a way for me to always come back to him.
He showed the devil that he loves us enough to sacrifice himself for us. That is the biggest message that could be sent to the devil, basically saying the devil should beware because he is willing to sacrifice himself for our sake. Imagine that and he is God. Imagine if God himself sacrifices himself for you, that is the ultimate love.

In my Bible I have some female saints who show several virtues and the one that touched me the most is Saint Gianna Beretta Molla. She had comlications during childbirth and had to choose between her and her unborn child. SHe chose her unborn child and died. She sacrificed her life for that unborn child. She died so that her child could live, but it's not a loss, because on the ressurection she will rise and she will hold her child in her arms and they will never be separated for all eternity.

That is the God that I have. One that loves me enough to sacrifice himself for me. So I do feel sorry for you that your god doesn't love you enough. Instead he is happy putting a barrier between you and him. Mine holds me close everynight as I sleep, warding the devil offf. He has placed his mark on me, letting the devil know that I am his.

I really do feel sorry for you, and I pray that one day you will know that God loves you enough to sacrifce himself for yoursake, for your freedom from sin, for your freedom from eternal damnation.

Thank you God for loving me and showing just how much you do love me. Not enough that I do will show my gratitude, not enough thank yous will do. Please accept this one.

I really didn't want to comment on this until I saw what you wrote below. Quite frankly the many contradictions in reasoning annoys me. Darn it when will you guys pick one and stick to it. You won't because when a proper answer is given to your attacks you look for another way to counter it, because you don't want to accept that muhammad lied to you.
It doesn't make sense, Islam that is.

These quotes are from different translations of the Holy Quran. There are no separate "Versions" of the Holy Quran. For "What is a Version,".

oga if the transaltions of the Bible amount to "versions" why don't the translations of the quran amount to "versions"

thinking that way is what is called hypocrisy.

there are plenty of translations of the Bible. It is done so to get whomever is reading it to understand it in their own language and culture. If God thought our cultures to be inferior to the Arabic culture, then why would he allow so many cultures in the first place?
It would be so contradictory of his own creation. And very much contradictory of the Islamic teaching that all are equal, which I know isn't true. There are the lesser muslims and the higher muslims, they have always been that way.

Hello people.

How are you all doing? Blessed I hope.

I don't like this whole time difference thing. You guys are asleep when I am up.

Well stay blessed.

Peace of Christ be with you.

The always selective in memory, David. What happened to your googleing the Bible and also theQur'an yourself. You conveniently pay no attention to all the verses we hav asked you to tell us in plain english, their direct meanings. You are also ignoring Shephard Herma's detail. Is this how to be sincere in discuss?

To be sincere, I have to agree with David here. The Epistle of Barnabas and the Gospel of Barnabas are two completely different books. I have a copy of the epistle and from reading about the gospel they are very different.

It is only a matter of truth. It is what it is. Call a Spade a Spade and not a Diamond.

Thanks for the reply. I however find it hard to accept that conventional science can support many biblical stories. I'm sure this issues have been trashed out time after time in this forum. Maybe on a certain spiritual level one may say humans have limited senses and cognitive powers and cannot understand certain things. Thats another issue entirely. I'm saying however that conventional science cannot back stories like the Adam and Eve stories or Noah's Ark etc. I'm not saying the Bible implicitly says Christians should not seek knowledge but that by insisting that we accept this stories without question, that implies that we must shelve conventional wisdom. You may however insist there can be conventional science backing for Biblical stories, I would be quite impressed to read such scientific theories.

Again enjoying everyones comment on the topic so far

I am sorry that you find it hard. Maybe you need to stop looking at Christianity from the view that you're currently usingg. Christianity does not debunk science and neither has science debunk Christianity. I don't see why the two cannot support each other and to me and many others who are also scientists they do. To go deep into it will take too much time for me right now and it cannot be covered in one day, we are talking about billions of years of the earth's history here.

But I do hope you mind can open to it.

Ok so I will be back. I was still typing and the computer went out for some apparent reason and all I typed was lost.

I have to go but will be back to finish. Don't post anything please. Thanks.

Now is there no difference between 'in the namne of the father, son, holy spirit and God of the father, the son and Holy Spirit

Oh yes there's a difference. In the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit is God. God of the father, son, holy spirit, I don't know and don't worship and no where have the Christians made this claim and no where in the Bible is this claimed and no where in the verse you replied to was it claimed or even hinted on. Don't read rubbish into the word of God, thanks.

So sister, who was God speaking to when he said that? Who was with him?

Himself? The Trinity?

How does this relates to trinity? Was God referring to Jesus?

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (Mark 10:18)"

So by your interpretation Jesus was not good. I thought he was sinless or is he not anymore?
Jesus is the God that he spoke of. I keep telling you that these verses only reveal the divine nature of Jesus. Not all were supposed to know at that time. Even when the disciples called him the messiah he told them not to tell anyone.
Yes.

You don't have to pick a verse out of context, you have been accusing Muslims of this but I have found that Christians have been guilty of this.

Now let see if the verse referred to Jesus. In order to get the clearer picture, I would take it from the beginning for better understanding:

Isaiah 6 (King James Version)


1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.


The above verse referred to when King Uzziah died and there was nobody called Jesus then, This was Isaiah talking.[/b]

2
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4
And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Except I didn't quote out of context. You view Jesus as existing when Mary gave birth to him. I see him as existing from the beginning before the world began as he let us know. So this would only be acceptable if Jesus started existing after this time of King Uzziah, but I know that he existed even before that as a Spirit, one with God.

Son of God and not God, get that straight please.

hahaha ok so now you accept him as the Son of God? I thought he wasn't even that because God couldn't have a son?
The Son of God is one with God. He is the Word of God made flesh. Now you get that straight please.

The above is in King James Version authorised in 1611 and formed the strongest evidence for the Doctrine of the Trinity. But now this part, 'the father, the word and the holy ghost; and these three are one' has been expunged in the Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other bibles as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek test.

I john 5 v 7 and 8 in the New American Standard Bible read as follows; 'and it is the spirit who bears witness because the spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness, the spirit, and the water and the blood and the three are in agreement.[/b]

Also in the New World Translation of Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah Witness, you will find 'for there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood and the three are in agreement'. [b]

Ok so what's the difference between the above and what I've been saying all along.

Where did you see that he existed since creation? The above verses nailed that doctrine if truly you understand your bible. The glory he had doesnt mean that he was in existence since creation. Let me add few verses for you to comprehend that God sent him and God was far above him.

Please don't read your own muslim interpretation into it. I already told you what it said and why did you skew my post?

He had no divine will:

Matthew 26 v 39:39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

He couldnt do anything by himself

John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself

Ok so how does this debunk the concept of the Trinity? How do you know that the Father is God? If there's a Father why can't there be a Son, oh wait you already agree on the Son.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 6:101)"

Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"They say: 'God hath begotten a son' :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. (The Noble Quran, 2:116

ok one more time, do you expect me to hold this to be true, because I don't and I won't. Sorry I have experienced many miracles in my life and yes many proofs in my life. The Quran holds no proof.

Sister, I have dealt with this in one of my posts. Did God need to change, suffer himself for human being to understand him? I also gave you verses where God cannot never be a man

I am so sorry, but you only think you did. Why? Because you don't understand the Bible and you won't. Why? Because you don't have the SPirit. Knowing what the words of the Bible are is one thing, understanding them is another. Even the devil quotes the Bible, please do better.

Is there any proof to show that the statement ought to have been 'I AM GOD'. Mind you, I am could also mean 'I AM SENT BY GOD' etc. So your explanation has no solid backing

Ok. I thought my explanation would have been enough but I guess not. The word used in the Old Testament is what was used by Christ in the New Testament to show his true nature.

Okay my little sister's name is Iyesogie meaning mother is supreme and my friend's name is Nneka also meaning mother is supreme. I will use these two names to give an example.

My little sister tells a Benin woman her name and then later meets an igbo woman who doesn't speak english but is trying to explain to her her name, so she says that her name is Nneka. Would she be wrong? No. Why? Because Nneka is also Iyesogie.
Jesus spoke aramaic and Moses spoke Hebrew, the word used at the time of Moses to identify God is translated into English as "I AM" the word used by Christ when he walked the earth to identify himself is translated into english as "I AM"
these two are the same just as Nneka and Iyesogie are the same.

So no it is not trying to say "I AM SENT BY GOD" If that is the case then the other places where Jesus indicates he is sent by the Father would also be written in the same way as the "I AM" and it would have had the same aramic words and therefore translated the same.

Three centuries after Jesus, the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God."

I still addressed it all, so do you want me to say that Constantine didn't force it on the Church? Ok fine I will say so: CONSTANTINE DID NOT FORCE THE IDEA OF THE TRINITY ON THE CHURCH. THE CHURCH FATHERS BEFORE CONSTANTINE CAME TO BE ALREADY HELD THE BELIEF. but wait a minute I believe I already addressed that issue on this board. I though someone else posted that and not you.

Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” (Isaiah 6:1,


~Lady~; Where is Jesus in any of the above, since God was preventing man from getting to the "tree of life," so that he would not become one of "us?"

Ok you see that part that says "whom shall I send, and who will go for US? that right there is Jesus the Word of God.
But anyway you won't see it, because you don't want to.

To be sure if the understanding of Christianity is not CRAP on the idea of Majestic "we," and you can't blame Islam for it, majestic we, therefore need defination. I think you also need to ask the people who have heard the Oba of Bini address himself, whether he uses sigular or majestic we for himself. This should be enough anyhow. Heck. Even me Olabowale, I use majestic we for myself. I must from now onward be using it for myself when I am talking to you. That may actually drive home the point. lol.

I am wondering how God addressed Himself, even before created anything, eg Angels, other spirits, like Jinns, heavens and earth, the other heavenly or solar system bodies, galaxies and milkways, etc, animals andplants, etc? Inshort, when He was alone; were there He God Almighty, Jesus in existence as a separate entity and Holy ghost/spirit? Were there 3 godheads and therefore God addressing Himself and the others about the wish or the intent to create all of those things? If these other two were there, you will notice that at no time did they make any sound to allow us to actually believe that they were there and important enough to God!

You will now see that even in the creation of man, a lesser even than the cumulative event of all other creations, we did not hear any sound from these other entities, as well. If in these two cases, creations of things previous to man and man, we did not see any inkling that Jesus and holy spirit were part of God by providing any acknowledgement sound of importance to the creation process, those who suggest that God has 3 entities have only made such statement by having no real proof. Anybody can say anything. But proof must be provided. We see that Jesus never uttered any word, at anytime prior to his coming out of Mary, his mother birth canal. We can safely say that Jesus was not important in creation.

Okay fine I will leave the idea of the majestic we alone. Still there are many others that speak of it.

The Old Testament, is the New concealed and the New Testament is the Old revealed.

Is the bible not what you use, as a catholic? Show me trinity, I asked you. We have it as a word in the Qur'an. Interesting that you are copping out. If you are not a christian, then I understand. If you are a Christian, you need to answer my question, regardless of your denomination.

okay one more time. I don't see why you are asking me a Catholic to show you where the word Trinity is in the Bible. I would expect you to ask that of a Protestant but not me a Catholic. Why? Because we Catholics already know that they word Trinity is not in the Bible, but that the concept of it is. It was in an effort to define it that we came up with one word for it. To give clarification as to the true nature of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Father.

I know you have it as a word in the quran, Christianity existed before Islam came to be, one more reason why I still stand by my belief that Muhamad knew of the Christians and he heard the Scripture and there were things he could not understand, therefore he worte his own book to give clarification of it.

Show me. But how do you have a concept, yet lack the actual word that the concept is defining? Please show the concept side by side with mark 12 verse 29. I am sure you can't in good conscience without one of them being a lie!

Well if we go by your belief of the essence of the Trinity then it will be a lie, but if we go by the true essence of the Trinity it will not be a lie. So I have repeated it many times. We have the FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Son and Spirit are the hands of the Father. They carry out the commands of the Father, therefore making them subject to him and unseparable from him. But still equal with him because just as your hands are subject to you, they are not separate from you, and are still you. If your arm was cut off we will know that it is you because of your DNA, your essence tells us that.

Now if you will please ask me questions based on the actual belief of the Trinity not what you believe the Trinity to be. Thanks.

Darling, stop saying that only if i undersatnd the concept! Do you understand the concept of something unknown, non existing? Then try it for size Mark 12 Verse 29., against your unknown quantity word that you call trinity, yet you have its concept. If only I could say that something exist, and i do not know what it is, not being identifiable as a word in the very book that describes it. Thats wierd. Sometimes, in the past, I asked the wife of a NYC Pastor if a person wrote a book, but does not title it, but instead says that the concept of the tile is in the Book, will that be enough to satisfy the curious?

I am so sorry that you have been led all your life to believe that the Trinity doesn't exist. It is an injustice to your soul. Now you will never know the true essence of God. I really am compassionate towards you for this.
May the Lord have mercy on your soul.