₦airaland Forum

Almost all cultures have patriarchal and sometimes matriarchal figures which they are custodians of, which is their property, which they are descendants of. The Jews are the custodians of Abraham and the name occurs originally only in the Torah. In the past, no one knew Abraham apart from the Jews. His name was copied from the Torah into the Bible and the Quran.

There are parallels of Abraham in almost all human cultures. The Celtic people on the British isles have a tradition of Arthur as their patriarch and their equivalent of Abraham. Many monarchs on the British isles have taken the name in the past. When the Normans occupied England, the earnest prayers and hope of the natives was 'Arthur will come again!'.

The people in Southern Arabia had Nimrod, the Kemitic Egyptians had Osiris. The Persians had Cyrus. The Hausa have Bayajidda, the Greeks had Alexander the Great, the Romans had Romulus, the Nri Igbos have Eri. The Yoruba have Oduduwa and etc etc. All have their accounts of creation, their spirituality, culture and language. All the patriarchs were people who united people and formed them into cohesive units. There are hundreds of such figures from different nations or cultures all over the world. They are all symbols of nationhood. Some lived a few thousand years back while some lived more recently. Abraham and Nimrod lived around five thousand years ago for instance, while Oduduwa the Meccan lived between 2000 and 1000 years ago and etc.

There is a problem today of people forgetting who founded their nations and rushing under the canopy of Abraham where they then confront each other in a fight to the death over certain status and rights when the truth is that Abraham belongs only to the Jews and therefore anyone claiming descent from Abraham is a Jew. People like Prophet Mohammed of Islam are therefore Jews or wannabe Jews. Jesus Christ was also a Jew, a heretic Jew. These two people are people who perverted Judaism to become Christianity and Islam, two dangerous, mind eating ideologies that are totally incompatible with world peace and mutual co-existence of human cultures on the globe. Original Jews were never a threat to world peace but these new Jews are. They are being teleguided by demonic forces.

This is why all authourity figures in all human cultures ought to come to the rescue by returning their people to be like their ancestors were in the past when there were no Jihads or crusades, when there was a workable consensus across the globe on God.

There may be little time left.

FOLYKAZE:
@ Lawani is making some contribution. I think we need to look at some sides of his argument.

His argument is somewhat related to 9jacrip submission when he said Oodaye is the first settlement while Ooyelagbo is the second settlement. This is pointing to gap theory.

I think I have read something relaated to this once but I throw it away because it bringing the bible and Isese together.

@ lawani, can you explain more on this your contribution?

What do you want me to explain? If you have questions, I will answer them within the horizon of my understanding while others shed more light with their own understanding.

There is incontrovertible evidence that very advanced people lived on Earth in the distant past. To the Yoruba, the capital of that civilization was ife, the empire was ife oodaye. The civilization was destroyed probably by a huge asteroid hitting the Earth but some people survived and established ife Ooyelagbo 10060 years ago, it must be thesame year ife oodaye sank. Later Kemitic Egypt, Sumeria, the Aztecs, Mayans and etc were established as offshoots of ife Ooyelagbo, then Greece, Phoenicia and etc followed by Persia, Rome, then the Muslims followed by Spain, then Britain and Europe and the US leading to our world today containing China, Russia, US, EU as giants.

I believe ife oodaye is thesame as the legendary Atlantis located somewhere now under the Atlantic ocean between Africa and the Americas.

One man came from the middle East and was made King in the civilization whose remnants were still observing the ife Ooyelagbo tradition. These remnants are the Yoruba. The man was renamed Oduduwa by the oracle. The original Oduduwa was a woman among the orisas that landed at ife oodaye at the dawn of existence. She was not a major orisa but just among the many. Oduduwa was not as important as he or she is today, even today it is not a major orisa. The main orisas are Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Esu and the ones who have weekdays dedicated to them.

However, Oduduwa's dynasty is the most popular among the Yoruba nowadays. He is the Yoruba father figure now. It was not so in the past.

If the Earth is destroyed again to remain only hundred thousand people and 40 thousand of them band together to found a new city while 60 thousand scatter to become hunter gatherers, the new city will be the New ife Ooyelagbo, it may be named Washington DC or New York in remembrance of the old world.

That is the way I see it. I hope people will shed more light on it

There is incontrovertible evidence that very advanced people lived on Earth in the distant past. To the Yoruba, the capital of that civilization was Ife, the empire was Ife Oodaye. The civilzation was destroyed probably by a huge asteroid hitting the Earth but some people survived and established Ife Ooyelagbo 10060 years ago, it must be thesame year Ife Oodaye sank. Later Kemitic Egypt, Sumeria, the Aztecs, Mayans and etc were established as offshoots of Ife Ooyelagbo, then Greece, Phoenicia and etc followed by Persia, Rome, then the Muslims followed by Spain, then Britain and Europe and the US leading to our world today containing China, Russia, US, EU as giants.

I believe Ife Oodaye is thesame as the legendary Atlantis located somewhere now under the Atlantic ocean between Africa and the Americas.

One man came from the middle East and was made King in the civilization whose remnants were still observing the Ife Ooyelagbo tradition. These remnants are the Yoruba. The man was renamed Oduduwa by the oracle. The original Oduduwa was a woman among the orisas that landed at Ife Oodaye at the dawn of existence. She was not a major orisa but just among the many. Oduduwa was not as important as he or she is today, even today it is not a major orisa. The main orisas are Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Esu and the ones who have weekdays dedicated to them.

However, Oduduwa's dynasty is the most popular among the Yoruba nowadays. He is the Yoruba father figure now. It was not so in the past.

If the Earth is destroyed again to remain only hundred thousand people and 40 thousand of them band together to found a new city while 60 thousand scatter to become hunter gatherers, the new city will be the New Ife Ooyelagbo, it may be named Washington DC or New York in remembrance of the old world.

That is the way I see it. I hope people will shed more light on it

No serious government will occupy themselves with forex rates. The job of government is to take a part of the GDP in form of taxes and use same for the advancement of the society, then the Central bank inflates the currency from time to time which serves to help reduce the value of debts by reducing the value of the currency and it also provides new money for government to spend. If no new money is printed, the value of the currency will naturally rise. If there is no high demand for forex, value of currency will also be positively affected but the main determinant of the value of currency is the volume in circulation and running after forex is not the business of a serious government, it is that of importers. So even if oil falls to 5 dollars a barrel, it should not affect the Nigerian government because oil is not up to 2 percent of the economy.

saxywale:
It is not impossible. It would be built without any difficulty, structures greater than the pyramid of Egypt have been built by modern engineers. The question to ask is why would any country or cooperation intend to spend over 1billion US dollars in building a structure which wouldn't add value. The benefit-cost ratio would be next to zero. You think we can send things into outer space with accurate precision and build towers half a mile tall, but we can't build a stone pyramid? Scientists and engineers were only amazed that ancient people could build such a structure with little technology available back then.

In my opinion, msc is not msc. Are you saying an Msc or Phd from Kogi University is equal to an Msc from Standford? I had lecturers back then in Nigeria with Phds from Standford, Edinburgh and Yale, yet we were lectured with notes from the 1970's, and laboratory equipments bought when obasanjo was the Nigerian head of state. The amount allocated for research alone in some universities in some advanced countries is bigger than the education budget in Nigeria for a year. Oh, my first degree was from OAU too if you were wondering. So i know the quality of product from there.

Concerning the LGA of Ifewara, LGA is just a geographical representation. It's similar to our brothers in benin republic, they are not less yorubas than any other yorubas in Nigeria. Even though they may be called Beninese, their identity is still Yoruba. Ifewara may be situated in Atakunmosa LGA, their locals are mainly Ife. That is why OBA Ifewara is an Ife province Oba just like the ifetedo, ipetu, Olode, Agbonbiti, Awolowo e.t.c, and not Ijesha.

Even if the pyramid could be built, it does not subtract from the credibility of my initial argument that ancient people were probably star trekkers, but many experts insist modern tech can not replicate it. Anyone can have an opinion.

PhD is PhD whether in Kogi or in Harvard, the research work will not be admissible and publishable if not up to standard. People researching in Western nations get more awards since they do more work and have more breakthroughs however people here too do get some awards.

I will assure you that Ifewara is on Ijesha land and the people are Ijesha. Ife never collected taxes there in the past and will not in the future. That is their identity that can hardly be changed.

Nigeria is not the only home country oF Yoruba, the Yoruba in Benin have their land and identity, so the analogy is not right. All towns in Ijesha were from Ife as well as all towns in Oyo and etc but they still have their Ijesa identity. Ife should concentrate on their land which should be bigger than Ijesha land. Ifewara is Ijesha that is close to Ife not Ife.

saxywale:
Ifewara is ijesha.lol. bros, you are funny o, now i am beginning to doubt you are from ilesha. most likely an oyo man masquerading as an ijesha.
Ifewara is 10minutes away from ife.
Why does the oba of ifewara attends the meeting of Ife lobaloba, and not that of ilesha?
my maternal great grandmother is from ifewara and she is ife.
So names like olafare are ijesha to you?
and of course, it is possible to rebuild the pyramid given the necessary manpower and materials. I have an MSc in civil engineering from a 1st world country

I also believe anything is possible but no one knows how they did it and with modern engineering knowledge, cranes and everything it will still be almost impossible. Nothing like it has been put up. How they placed the bricks remain a mystery. Many experts say modern engineers CAN NOT replicate it but you can have any opinion despite that you can not prove it.

A MSc is an MSc, A PhD is a PhD. No matter the university, all are peers publishing in thesame or affiliated journals but it is good to be a product of a university in a serious country. We have world reknown scholars here too who are based here. Many of my lecturers in Ife are well known in Chemical engineering circles all over the world. But congrats all thesame.

Ifewara is Ijesha on Ijesha land but close to Ife. It is in Atakunmosa East or so. It is an Ijesha town, Ife land is big enough without trying to encroach on Ijesha land. There is no way Ifewara will be counted as an Ife town, they are Ijesha, being close to Ife is not reason enough to be annexed by Ife. Little by little, the land will finish. Ife already has more land than Ijesa, I believe

The derelict state of the power infrastructure in Nigeria has proved impossible to solve for successive governments for decades. So Nigeria has become the main market for small generators. Things like inverters and solar panels are also very popular in Nigeria. Most of the electrical power consumed in Nigeria is privately generated by millions of low power generators powering homes, offices, business premises and factories. The privately generated component of power consumed in Nigeria may be over 70 percent of the total if not more. Just like with the power grid, water is thesame story, if you build a house, you also have to sink a bore hole for your water. Piped gas is non existent, if you use gas at home, it is by filling small cylinders from sellers who sell from larger cylinders that you get gas, the sellers travel out of town to fill their large cylinders which they then resell at a profit. It is a sizeable industry in any Nigerian town. However, most of the gas produced by oil companies in Nigeria is flared, wasted by being vented into the atmosphere in a fiery combustion that goes on twenty four hours non stop while some people in the surrounding villages of the flow station cook with scarce firewood. The gas could also have been compressed and used to fire turbines to generate power.

No water grid, no gas grid and effectively no electrical power grid in Nigeria. So one often wonder how difficult it is to solve at least the power problem even if water and gas will remain an all man for himself affair. I have realised that it is not difficult at all and that what is stopping it is Nigeria.

The RCCG redemption camp at Km 44 Lagos-Ibadan expressway is probably the only place in Ogun state where there is constant electricity and there are thousands of buildings within the camp premises including schools, hotels, hospitals and etc. How did they achieve this? They obviously reached an agreement with the institutions they need to reach an agreement with, then installed diesel powered turbines to generate power for the camp. They installed pre paid meters for all the users, who then load from time to time under a pay as you go scheme. The money they pay is paid to diesel suppliers and the power department is not running at a loss, they must infact be making profit. The arrangement has been going on for years now. However, in the same local government of Owode, Ibafo which is just some meters removed from the RCCG camp is in perpetual darkness, cut off from the national grid for years. The RCCG can fix their power problem but the Owode Local government can not fix theirs, despite that the RCCG is in thesame Owode Local government. What can be the problem? The problem is Nigeria.

So, yesterday, when I saw my Dad who lives in that RCCG camp, I asked him how much they recharge with per month, given that they enjoy steady power supply. I know they have a small fridge, TV, iron and etc. He said he recharged 3 thousand naira, 3 months ago and it is yet to be exhausted. I was surprised because they are not using hydro or wind powered turbines in that camp. They use diesel and they pay their suppliers and yet a customer using fridge, iron, TV, fan and etc consumes only around N1,000 a month in thesame country where power rates are being increased for power that is not there!. People pay multiples of that amount for a few hours of electricity per week in Nigeria. What is the problem? The problem is Nigeria. If not for Nigeria, the Owode Local government would have responded the way the RCCG administration responded and they would have had stable power years ago. Owode is just one Local government out of 774 Local governments in Nigeria. If Owode can do it, then the other 773 can also do it. What is stopping them is Nigeria.

This is why it is better for progressive minded people to join hands together and put an end to Nigeria. Let new nations, properly alligned peoples rise from the ashes and start building and developing their portion of mother Earth as did their ancestors. Progress will be rapid when interests are properly alligned. There was cooperation in pre colonial West Africa and there will still be cooperation if Nigeria is broken up. Access to sea litter the West African coast line and people who invest money to build ports will compete for customers amongst themselves and an agreement can be reached such that goods destined for the hinterland will not be charged import duties, only handling charges and etc etc. Also, even if littoral states charge duties on goods entering through their sea ports, the Northern states can respond in thesame way by tariffing goods going South. I believe it won't come to that. In actual fact, such fears need not arise as the coast line is far from being a monopoly,then almost everything can be made locally within some years. Imported things can also come through North Africa.

Nigeria has been experimented with for long enough and a breather will do everybody a lot of good. We need to remember that our ancestors never saw these things we bother ourselves with as challenges.

The best way forward is to break up the country, so the new countries can start nation building immediately. We have experimented with the country for long enough. A People should not embrace mediocrity.

9jacrip:
Everything in the first emboldened are from your imaginations and your own conclusions ALONE.

Owari is the full of Owa, I'm surprised a person giving rendition to words and supposedly knows history didn't know this.

2. Ode does not mean 'city', it is mostly used when there are tow versions of a town. Ibadan was a city, Ikoyi was a city, Ife during Luwoo's period was something like a city etc besides by what standard are you determining what makes a 'city' in ancient times?

3. Before Yoruba world over adopted Oba as a tag for a ruler, Ife that long existed before them used Oba to refer to clan heads - get into your head sir.

This is simple: Before other towns emerged, Ife had a lose confederacy with each clan head called Oba-something all who later became Chief-Kings to Ooni. When other towns sprang up, they began to use the word Oba left and right - a recent development. You're not only shallow, you're thickly block headed and unnecessarily stubborn with nothing upstairs other than myths and nothing new to share - yes, I said it.

Political system in Ife precedes that of Yoruba.

Terms of office in Ife precedes that of Yoruba.

Your almost drug like influenced cling to Oba as though it wasn't derived from Ife makes no sense.

4. Really? Modern engineers building sky scrappers and taking engineering to the extremes? Wow. . School wo lo re na?

5. So Ooni is no longer a derivative of Omo Olwuo ni? It is now Ooni Orisa? I purposely dropped that in my previous post because it appears you cling to any new info that almost follows your argument which you then incorporate into your new argument.

For the record and repetitive purpose:

Oluwo in whatever sound rendition you want to give it never existed in Ife - only Luwoo, a female Ooni and the mother of the founder of Iwo town.

The female Ooni 'slave' Ooni impregnated was Orunto who has a compound in Ife till today.

Ajibogun did not fight any wars neither did he make agreements to install the slave child because non was installed.

Slave's son did not found Ifewara - Olowoyelu, the brother to Otutu (founder of Otutu Royal house) both sons of Lafogido founded Ifewara.

Finally, Obalufe is the Oba of Iremo starting from Lageere/post office to the palace gate. He also acts as Oba of Ife as his name states. He runs the day to day activities of Ife, not the Ooni.

Oonirisa is not Ooni Orisa, it is Ooni ri Orisa because he has to be part of all festivals done everyday in Ife, without him the festivals are null and void.

So sir, take this back home and ask your elders who will tell you true history and quit bothering us with astronauts and spaceships. If una don watch sci-fi too much na rubbish go remain to dey yarn.

Lawani astronaut.

You are just being unnecessarily insultive. I stayed in Ife is why I know Oonirisa is a contraction of Ooni and orisa and it is pronounced that way not as 0oni ri orisa. You sound as if you do not understand Yoruba language sir. I am not succumbing to your definition of Ooni but only saying it as it is rendered in Ife. I stick to the Ijesa account that agrees with that of the Oyo

So to you, what is King in Yoruba language? Not Olu because Olu means chief person or prime person like in Olu ode chief hunter or Olu Awo head of the Awos. Please what is the Yoruba word for emperor. There must be a word since we had empires. Please tell me sir.

You must remember that the establishment of any Ife is for the sole purpose of preserving history. A purpose you have trivialized. I believe that is why we have those titles that represents leaderships of defunct empires. Obajio, Obalufe and etc.

Maybe I will find an article to post for you to see that the ancient way of referring to a city is ode.
See this ese Ifa for instance
Gongosu Edidare
Bo ti gbon to na lo go to
Akindanidani awo won lode Egba
Odanidani awo won lode Ijesa

That was the way of referring to cities in the past but it has gone out of fashion nowadays.

The Egypt pyramids are still mysteries like many other thing. If you are a civil engineer you will understand that such a massive pyramid a real pyramid wide base tapering at the top visible from space has not been replicated. Skyscrapers are straight rectangles and not pyramids, those are easier to build.

Pls be objective no need to be abusing me. You believe our ancestors were primitives while I believe they achieved feats we won't in hundred years time. They were more advanced but were destroyed. It can happen to us too so much that only a few thousand humans will be on Earth in 7020 if we produce too many foolish people.

The title of Oduduwa was Olofin aiye while new Ife kings are Ooni. What do you say was meaning of King in Ife? Olofin, Ooni, Owa, Alaafin and etc are orikis of Obas. I am very heartbroken by the way you muddle things up.

Meanwhile Ifewara is Ijesa and not Ife. The history you stated that excludes Ijesa is wrong. There is clear boundary btw Ife and Ijesa. On what basis are u claiming the place as Ife?

9jacrip:
1. And they brought the artefacts with them and buried them deep in the ground and forgot about them abi? You must think Ifa wasn't to record occureces in Ife (spiritual and factual). Ifa talked about each migration and human interaction but somehow forgot to talk about the different migration phases abi? Well done.

2. You're using Google to research Yoruba claendar? And you must have gotten from google that new years in Ife starts June abi? . You mentioned there's no proof for longer life span, can you apply this logic to everything you've been saying. Talk about the ones with proof only.

3. Myths are not lies. Myths are mostly spiritual and they do not exceed that purpose.

4. And what am I supposed to make of Ijebu Ode when the argument has been about Ijebu Igbo remaining on its original site.

5. I'm starting to suspect you're a Muslim. Oduduwa had nothing to do with Mecca. Go to Ora in Ife, his people there will tell you his history. You just sit in your house and make claim or tells us what you believe - are you like some authority or you lived in this period?

6. Oduduwa came between 10th/11th C

7. what is the proof to convince us of this? You claim Ode means old settlements but Ijebu Ode is recent and Itsekiri is a splinter group from Ijebu, another recent town. There's Ode Iremo, another recent town.

8. Ooyelagbo/Oodaye were mythical explanations of the tradition of origin. Ask yourself why in Ooyelagbo/Oodaye it was about creation and Obatala losing? This is common sense. Otu-Ife is used interchangeably with Ile-Ife with Babalawo.

'Wan nna Babalawo l'otu 'fe - wan kin na babalawo ni ile-Ife.'

9. 51 kings since Oduduwa came is my argument.

10. Egypt remained on the same site throughout its years, capital was moved, yes. Your claim here is Ife keeps shifting location its entire self but artefacts say otherwise and the location the palace is sited says otherwise, the Igbo Ogbe (Obatala's palace sire at Iranje Oko) says otherwise, the Ugbo settlement in Mokuro says otherwise, the arrangement of each clan settlements' sites say otherwise.

Separate myths of reasonable history, don't confuse people.

Ifa said so many things, it depends on the individual to take the actual history from the myth.

Ifa talks about opele being a bad servant whom he hit with iroke and he broke into 8 pieces. Do you believe this is actual history?

Ifa says Obatala got drunk in Ooyelagbo and Oodaye but another version says he was a drunk who lost battle and was marched out with taunts of palm wine - common sense requires I go with the latter.

Ifa never mentioned anything about Mecca, Lamrudu or Middle East (yet you believe this version is true), Ifa mentioned Oke Ora and heaven descent - common sense requires you look at Oke Ora which had long existed in Ife.

I really do not have time nor energy for fairy tales.
If nothinf reasonable is being brought forward I may have to quit with these conversation.

How many Ifa verses do you know that you are saying something is not in the Ifa corpus? No one knows all the contents of the Ifa corpus and it continues to grow. They are just stories to guide people and all oral history of the Yoruba could as well be referred to as part of the corpus but I am not saying they are. I will not say the Oduduwa from Mecca story is a lie neither would I say the Awujale from Waddai story is a lie too. Who am I to say such? Only people like you say such things while your ancestors turn in their graves. If the Mecca story were a lie. It means the Lamurudu (Nimrod) is also a lie. How did that name enter Yoruba oral history? The man of analysis? Nimrod was not mentioned by name in the Quran, so it was not from there. I put it to you that Oduduwa was a middle Eastern monarch who was driven out. So why not Mecca? Oh! You have to find reason to believe your ancestors were fools. Sorry. Oduduwa envisaged characters like you, so he dropped the name Nimrod.

I did not say Ode means old city sir. Comprehension? Ode was used to refer to urban settlements in the past. The Yoruba way of saying 'the city of Ibadan' was 'Ode Ibadan' in the past. To say you are exiting the city, you say 'M o nlo is ehin odi'
Ehin odi meaning behind the walls and etc.

If you will be saying Obatala Obataasa Oba patapata lode Iranje lived in the 11th century, then you should shut up and not be talking about Ife. If you will be saying Ife, this present Ife is the location since the beginning of time, then you have failed totally and should be sacked by your superiors.

Many Ifa stories were gotten in dreams by scholars and inputted in the corpus all thesame. Iba Awonamaja Babalawo ti nkomo ni Ifa loju oorun. Awonamaja teaches Ifa to children in dreams and the stories are put in the corpus indiscriminately. Ifa verses do contradict themselves but it does not mean they are lies. Obatala might be a woman then later a man. All orisas have manifested millions of times.

When relocating Ife, it may not be possible to take all the legacies. The new Ife will make new artifacts. What is important are the people that will pass on the stories. Cheers

9jacrip:
The first emboldened shows you need a lot to brush up on.

Ode in reference to settlement used when there are two kinds.

Ode Iranje in this context does not mean city. There were two - Iranje ile and Iranje Oko. Apparently, Iranje Oko is the Iranje Ode where Obatala went on to become king when Osangangan Obamakin vacated his throne for him.

Ijebu Igbo

Ijebu Ode

Ode Iremo

Iremo


I don't know how your Ilesa folks arrive at Loja being ascribed to the market - rather than sit in your comfort zone, go out or make calls, ask questions and school all of us here. Where I'm from, all other clan heads are 'Oba' only the head of Iranje is called Oloja Iranje-Idita.

Obatala was no lesser king. Ife pre-Oduduwa was a confederacy, everyone ran his domain and everyone was equal. Your level of followership vis a vis Oogun fetches you some type of reverence. Obatala was his position tag, he had his real and actual name. You do not expect the 2 lines of the family to tag whomever develops to the top through the ranks as 'Obatala'. After a person gets to Obalesun from Ilesun line or a person gets to Obalale from Ilale line, you do not become 'Obatala' you become Oloja Iranje. And whomever is familiar with Iranje Idita knows from Igbo Itapa through Moore to Mokuro till Ilesa border knows there's no market whatsoever other than Oja Oba beside ayegbaju church which falls under the jurisdiction of the Ooni.

Olofin could be Olu-Ofin or Oni Ofin.
I don't know what it means but I know it has nothing similar with Jesus. Ifa refers to God the creator as Olofin, Oduduwa was referred as Olofin Aye which is just one of his many titles. Thus, insignificant here. Exceot we want to begin to consider all his titles.

So, Olofin Aye is now the title for kings of Ife but you said it was Oba? Was it because Macof said it? . Keep in Olufe was used as well as Oonirisa (eni ri orisa/eni orisa).

Nowhere in actual history, myth, folklore and Ifawas Oduduwa ever referred as Owa. How you came to this conclusion, I do not know. Owari is the full version of Owa. Owa is the short. So chill with your translation there and give us the full meaning of 'Owari'.

Logic requires researching from your environment and connecting dots similar. Logic is not drawing inference where there is none and logic isn't coming to absurd conclusions out of sheer mental laziness. Methods of how things are done by generations get lost, it doesn't necessarily mean astronauts came from wherever.

Loja in Ijesa are equivalent of Dukes in Britain. From the etymology of the title it means owner of the market. No one told me that since it is apparent enough. I will say Olofin means Olofintoto, also from the etymology of the title, no one told me that. Olofintoto means perfect which means Christ. I think I heard Owa Obokun Aromolaran on TV once refer to Oduduwa as Olofin aiye, another person mentioned it on this thread. So I believe that was is title. What is the meaning of Owari? You might be able to convince me but Yoruba names connotes a lot and wa means come, So Owa naturally means He who came. I believe the Oba of Ife would have been named Owa (why not?) since Oduduwa was a stranger, if not that a new event of making the Oluwo's son King happened.
God being a perfect ruler is also called Olofin which I also believe means Olofintoto.

To confirm that cities were referred to as Ode Oyo, Ode Ife, Ode Ondo and etc in the past, you will need to ask others or make research. I am surprised you don't know that.

Every ruler or emperor in Yoruba land is Oba. The Ooni is Oba of Ife, Alaafin is Oba of Oyo. Are you even Yoruba? What kind of questions are these you are raising?. Throughout Yoruba land Oba is King and not a clan head. If you say Oba is clan head in Ife, you are wrong and it shows you are very shallow. That titles like Obalufe, Obajio and etc occurs in Ife does not mean those people are Obas. The day the Obalufe says Emi ni Oba Ife will be the day he will be sacked. Don't you know there is no other word for King in Yoruba than Oba?. Pls stop spreading rubbish around sir. Whatever the Ife chiefs are calling themselves in their quarters does not change the meaning of Oba in Yoruba language. The only word for emperor is Oba.

You are the one lacking imagination and you are also mentally lazy to boot sir. Modern engineers can not replicate the pyramids built 5 thousand years ago. So our ancestors might have been star trekkers. Let that sink in.

Oonirisa is just a contraction of Ooni and orisa. I wonder why you are running away from the Oluwo story supported by two people, the Ijesa and the Oyo who have never been allies
Afterall the Oluwo was a human being.

9jacrip:
The Ijebu capital was at Eredo before being relocated to Ijebu Ode. Thats the point and there must have been other capitals as well. The Awujale's palace is now at Ijebu ode but it was at Eredo at one time. I never said Awujale was in Ijebu Igbo, Ijebu Igbo is one of the Ijebu towns.
Answers



1 Ife Ot u was destroyed. No one knows the location. Otu means scattered. Do you know the location? Maybe Ife Oodaye is thesame as Ife Ot u, I am still researching that. Ife Oodaye too has disappeared, what we have now is Ife Ooyelagbo which started off as a remnant or the survivors of the disestablishment or destruction of Ife Oodaye. We now have the Ife Ooyelagbo which was established 10060 years ago. Just like the people in the present Ife have Ife tuntun towards the border of Ondo on their land and may relocate there if they feel like, the old IFE Ooyelagbo too relocated capital a couple of times. All was Ife land, the whole of the Yoruba area and even beyond. The present location was an Ife province called Igbomokun. I believe the 90 kings were Obas of Ife and not that of Igbomokun and if they are of Igbomokun, then Ife must have an even longer King list.



2
The new Yoruba year starts June 3 every year and I believe Oduduwa arrived post Islam since it is just 50 kings ago. Use an average reign length of the last few Obas, then multiply by the number of post Oduduwa Obas to arrive at an approximate date



3
I do not believe Oduduwa predates Jesus, I was just using 2 thousand years ago date as claimed by a commentator on the thread. I believe Oduduwa came after Islam



4
There are many ancient Ife sites like Ife Ijumu in Kogi, Ufeke in Idanre and others in Kwara. Pls research for yourself

.

5
Ot u may imply a violent end to an advanced civilization. Olodumare ma je ki ile di ahoro mo wa lori. Ilu o ni tu lori wa. You dont have the art or technology of Ot u Ife or Ife Oodaye. What you have is the remnants of Ooyelagbo. A pitiful remnant is what we have.



6
Lagere is in Ife, also in Gbongan. Okesa in Ilesa, also in Ado Ekiti. Ilare in Ot u Ife, also in Oodaye and Ooyelagbo does not make all those places thesame

If this Ile Ife is disestablished and relocated to North or South America, the Ifa Awos will insist on naming new quarters in the new city after quarters in the old city. Isn't that apparent. That is why those quarters that existed in ancient Ife now exists in Ife Ooye.

People may have lived longer thousands of years ago and I believe so because so many accounts say so but no proof however as at five thousand years ago, lifespan has become what we have today. So your 51 Kings ago can not be more than 1500 years ago at 30 years per King. There were Oonis that died on the coronation day, so given that range, they all had normal lifespans but if you incorporate the earlier 90 kings, the earlier ones may have lived longer, so the king list can cover the Yoruba calendar of 10060. Pls research Yoruba calendar and direct your questions on it to the scholars behind it. Use google.

There may be misconceptions and misunderstandings but myths are not lies. They are trying to pass messages. Think deeply on them. Don't dismiss ur ancestors as fools. Thanks.

Ijebu Igbo may be older but the capital was shifted to Ijebu Ode. The Awujale used to reign in Eredo. Bilqis Sungbo reigned in Eredo and the ruins are still there.

I believe Oduduwa may have been driven out of Mecca by Mohammed himself and would have known the man. That will mean he arrived in the 7th century.

Ile Ife is relatively new. All town names prefixed with Ile are new. Towns were not prefixed with ile but ode in the past. Even Look at Itsekiri, they call their place Ode Itsekiri before ile became popular.

Egypt was established around 5000 years ago while Ife Ooyelagbo was established 10060 years ago according to the Yoruba calendar. They also moved capital around. All empires do that.

Ife is supposed to be the first human civilization, so saying it began 51 Kings ago or a few thousand years ago while dismissing what you are supposed to be the custodian of as myth is rather unfortunate

9jacrip:
You're a very funny person.

You just take a word and flip it and give it a meaning.

If Owa means someone who came from somewhere then what does Owari mean? And why wasn't Oduduwa called 'Owa'?

Oja in Oloja does not even mean market . This guy nor go kee person.

Oloja in Idita context mean a person who renders a place mute/quiet as a grave yard during the festival. There are certain processions, invocations and during the festival - Oloja will suddenly declare 'O d'oja' and this means everyone/everywhere gets quiet as a grave. No words are said or whispered.

Olu can mean 'brave one of' or 'leader of'

Ode doesn't even mean 'city' in Yoruba. Ode is an opposite of Igbo (as in Ijebu Igbo and Ijebu Ode).

@Emboldened: You need to slow down here sir. You know nothing of Iranje-Idita, its history and its occupants; so just chill. If Iranje-Idita now isn't how it was back then (as per expanse of land, palace structure and arrangement of families) you may as well want to tell me/us how it was?

You want to debate, make declarations, renditions off of your own thoughts and myth not necessarily what is available on ground and you want people to accept such?

Do not sit yourself in Ilesa, absorb the false stories you get told and make conclusions. If Ife history interests you, go to each important compound in Ife to conduct Ife or go to the palace to meet Emeses, they'd be of help.

If you hear Ode Ijesa, Ode Ife and etc, those are references to ancient cities. Ijebu Ode is the more prominent and urbanized Ijebu while the Igbo was hidden and of lesser significance. I am not sure if there are other meanings of Oloja but in Ijesa Loja is the chief of a small town and in all Yoruba towns the chief owns the Oja which is the market in front of the palace. An Oba is an emperor. So lesser Kings are Lojas so far Ijesa is concerned

I will say Olofin is a kind of title meaning Christ or perfect person or ruler, I am inferring this from the etymology of the name. Ofin means perfect even in modern Yoruba like in ofin toto but this is just an inference from how the word is used. The Oba of Ife was called Olofin aiye in the past.

I am learning and I do not know it all but I will like you to explain how Obatala was a lesser king under anybody not to talk of a certain Oduduwa. About Olojas, so far Ijesa is concerned Lojas are minor chiefs who control the market in their domain since the market represents the economy.

Oduduwa was Owa, Owa means newcomer apparently and I don't know about Owari haven't heard the tonation. Oduduwa was Owa and might have been named Owa I believe if not because of the more significant event of being the son of an Oluwo.

Pls logic and everything are necessary to arrive at sound conclusions. Some of you here say ancient people were not astronauts yet you don't know how the Egyptian pyramids were built or how the huge stones in Stonehenge were quarried in Scotland and moved to their present location. Fact is they may have been astronauts

macof:
Actually, unless a word contains "chi" or something absent from yoruba lexicon it sounds yoruba. they bear yoruba names actually. .. jst like Chidi and Chukwudi in different igbo dialects, Names like Mojere and Mozere, Omawunmi and Omowunmi are different dialects of the same language...even Oloza is Oloja


they say Oma - like many yorubas do
say Aze when western yorubas say Aje
they say "se" like many yorubas while western yorubas say "she"


their culture doesn't seem so different from what we have in Owo - their homeland

Apart from all that Ugbodumila is clearly a Yoruba language understandable by any Yoruba speaking person. Ugbo- Forest, du mi- seize me or rescue me, la- saved or prospered.

If I say Ade ati Akin n du aga it means Ade and Akin are dragging or contesting for a chair between them. Ugbodumila means the forest seized me or rescued me and I was saved.

9jacrip:
The emboldened makes no sense and the secret language is called 'Oro'fe', the original Ife dialect used for chants and conjuring. Are you an Ogboni or an Awo of any Orisa?

Oba, where I am from is a chieftaincy title. Obalufe, Obarese, Obadio, Obawinrin, Obalaaye etc




Owa, where I am from is a chieftaincy title. Owa Eredunmi for example

Oloja, where I'm from is a chieftaincy title it has nothing to do with market. Oloja Iranje for example.

Olu, where I'm from is a chieftaincy title.


Way before Ijesa or any other towns were founded, way before Oduduwa planned and implemented his coup, Ife has used Oba, Owa, Loja as chieftaincy/clan head titles.

The interesting part is, Oba, Owa, Oloja are all clan heads and control expanse of land where I'm from.

Since Ooni as a term is new, then why was is it in use since the inception of Ifewara till it was changed to Olufewara and Adimula Ifewara recently?

Stop bandying lies.

Ifewara too is new, Ilesa is new and etc. They were old cities but names have been changed.

Owa means a ruler that came from somewhere else
Olu means prime person or King. You can be Olu Awo for instance

Oba means King in Yoruba language. If not what does King or emperor mean in Yoruba?

Oloja means Oni Oja owner of the market. In Ijesa you must have been Loja in a small town before being Oba Owa Obokun. You can't just become Owa Obokun like that.

Iranje was a city, an Ode, not even a small city, hence Obatala's oriki. Oba patapata lode Iranje. Great King in the city of Iranje. That Iranje is now used flimsily in Ife does not mean it was originally like that please.

No pun intended but you have a lot of info u have not analysed properly.

Oduduwa was made King whether he was Chinese or an Australoid does not matter anymore. He was a human being and his legacy can not be denied.

9jacrip:
Do you understand 'Oba' as a term is for chiefs?

This is why supreme kings do not use Oba but rather some other appellation, sometimes derived from the name of their domain?

'Olofin' is what members of 'awo' and 'ogboni' call (till today) Oduduwa - if you've been to any Ogboni or Awo gatherings, not necessarily what he gave himself.

'Ooni' was the title people of Ife called him.

Please do not turn things upside down. Oba is the word for King in Yoruba language. Titles like Owa Obokun, Alaafin, Ooni, Atawoja, Awujale and etc are orikis of Obas.. The name they are fondly called. Olu means most important person or prime person. Oloja means owner of the market and in Ijesa it is like a duchy. The Oja or market is always in front of the palace in Yoruba towns. Hence the Loja is the owner. The Oba rules an empire containing many towns and many markets. So in Ijesa for instance, there are many Lojas but only one Oba who is the Owa Obokun but nowadays many are Oba.

All the Yoruba refer to Oduduwa as Olofin Aye or King of Earth so that was his title. Ooni is new. What they say in Ogboni is what happened in the past, a secret language learnt by the Awo was our language. Pls don't turn things upside down

macof:
Olofin, Olufe

That is true. The title of the Oba of Ife Ooyelagbo was Olofin Aiye or Olu/ Oba of Ife. Like most present titles, the Ooni title is new.

This age of industrialization which is the age of mass production was kicked off in England from where it spread to the rest of Europe, since they are in thesame sphere. Just like something kicked off in Lagos will easily spread to Kano or Enugu since we are in thesame West Africa. The industrial revolution revolutionized production with machines that can do the work of 100 men and etc. It is from England and Europe that this industrialization we are now enjoying spread to the other parts of the world. We are all copying Europe in that respect. The information age we are now enjoying is a child of the industrial age and it was kicked off as well in the United States which was also an outpost of the British empire or England.

The major big nation that has copied Europe best is Japan and Japan has surpassed the average European nation. Japan presently has the highest capital investment per capita in the world in the form of advanced machineries and etc.
Japan's level of per capital investment is unusually high, doubling that of most contemporary countries. Other nations that copied well are South Korea and Singapore. Others are in various stages of success. The tool used in advanced nations to enhance and utilise industrialisation fully is organisation through the harnessing and use of income tax.
Since industrialization serves to give jobs to machines instead of humans and by that make life less stressful and fuller for humans as they move to thinking jobs instead of menial jobs, while the remnants of the jobs should ideally be shared in the way our ancestors did, such that more or less everybody was employed in the pre industrial societies all over the world and unemployment was never a topic for discussion back then as it is today, it is therefore clear that industrialization or the industrial revolution has not been managed well in most countries or the world at large. Many Socialist states have tried a policy of full employment but they have largely failed because socialism itself is not optimally efficient. For instance, what will be the use of full employment in a nation ravaged by famine? The jobs are shared alright but the people are still ravaged by famine and shortages of all sorts.

When industrialization started, there were no welfare states, it was all man for himself, machines took jobs and people left the countryside in droves to find jobs in cities. No organisation and etc. The machines ended up producing goods faster than the market can consume them and the Karma came calling in the form of 'The Great Depression' after getting out of that, industrialized nations organised themselves into welfare states with statutory minimum wages, welfare support for the disadvantaged and all sorts of interventions that spreads the money around. I believe this is why we have not seen another Great Depression like the last one. The problems of any kind of stagnancy we may have now are caused by deficits, a fallout of third world nations refusing to organise and take their own fair share of available credit. This can only be done by organising the third world nations for their governments to depend on income tax and for all their workers to be current account holders who have access to credit. When that is done, credit will be evenly distributed.

It is clear that the industrial age needs to be better managed. It is then that humanity can begin to reap the benefits therein. For now, it is a world of mindless waste of resources, dog eat dog and capitalism which is like the deification of money.

saxywale:
I doubt the
Ijesha's account though, I have honestly never heard of that tale before from any of the ijesha I have met both home and abroad. i put a call through to an in-law (an aromolaran) just south of the bother today, and he has never also heard of the ijesha omo oluwo version as well. oh well. And I don't believe Oduduwa came all the way from mecca to ife..lol. That's a journey of how many days, kanako sef no fit shorten that kind of journey

And concerning the 1st Ooni, if you do not agree that Oduduwa was an Ooni, then the 1st Ooni could have been a descendant of Obatala(obamakin).
A lot of research work recognises the fact that descendants of Obatala reigned again in ife after the death of Oduduwa, with obalufon 2 being the most popular as all those ife bronze head and sculptures were credited to his reign. It was the arrival of Oranmiyan back in ife to reign as an Ooni that effectively ended the obatala's dynasty. And of course, there are still descendants of Obatala in ife, and some other towns in osun like ifon-osun that can back that claim up.

It is healthy to have doubts but accounts are accounts. That someone is Aromolaran does not mean he knows history. You know history only if you are interested in it enough to study it and analyse it. I did not make any of the accounts up. I got them from books and from oral accounts in Ilesa. Not everybody is interested and you can not analyse what you are not interested in. I don't believe the Mecca story was made up or the Waddai story of the Awujale. People who think their ancestors are primitive and foolish have such beliefs. I don't have such beliefs, so I believe the Mecca and Waddai stories as passed down. I don't like doing embellishments.

We are descendants of the orisas, all of us and no one is more a descendant than another. The Obalufe is not more a descendant than the Ooni. The belief is that all humans are descendants of the orisas.

I believe there are still people alive today in Yoruba land, Muslims who went on hajj to Mecca and returned by foot. So there is nothing strange in Oduduwa coming from Mecca, he did not only come from there but also visited there again after settling in Ife. Ife was a big capital in those days.

saxywale:
Rev Johnson was a descendant of alaafin abiodun. His book was biased in the sense that it attempts to legitimize Alaafins imperial claims over other neighbouring states.
And what other Yorubas exactly were you referring to? The
The "omo oluwo ni" was what rev Johnson cooked up on page 24 of his book. I have never heard of that story from any other yoruba kingdom history or source.
It's funny the book never acknowledged that Oduduwa met Obatala at Ife, and believed omo oluwo's mother was meant to be sacrificed to Obatala.lol.

I know Rev Johnson was biased in favour of the Oyo but no Yoruba denies Ife origin. He also relayed a history saying many Ijesas are descendants of sticks! Ijesa omo igi saying he got the story from the Ifes and that Ijesha means Ije orisha or food of the orisas. He was shocked that people took pride in the name!

However Ijesa accounts acknowledge also that the mother of the first Ooni was an Oluwo.

Maybe Oduduwa the Meccan met a man named Obatala in Ife because my father's best friend in Ilesa back then was also nicknamed Orunmila but he could not have met Obataasa, Oba patapata lode Iranje.

9jacrip:
Does Ijebu Igbo use Awujale?

You keep muddling up everything.

What places was Ijebu Igbo moved to?

Ijebu Igbo is different from Ijebu Ode; the former precedes the latter by far.

If we keep limiting our kings to 51 but you (the other people) believe it is 141 then you must know Ife history more than Ifes, yes?

The 51 kings are all from Oduduwa's dynasty. Starting with Oduduwa himself.

Prior to that there have been up to 90 rulers of a confederacy of hamlets that existed independently of each other - the hamlets and their arrangements are still in Ife.

No migration and nothing was shifted.

Let us not go back and forth unnecessarily, it is becoming boring.

My questions:

1. If Ife Oodaye, Ooyelagbo and Otu were separate towns that existed in different places before the present Ife, kindly tell us where these town existed. Remember you gave a very false claim of Igbomolokun to have been Ife?

2. If Ife all together is 10,600th but the new Ife is just 2000, when does the new year in Ife start and end and since what period did you begin your count? To have arrived at 10k and 2K respectively?

3. If present Ife is 2k years old, and it is known the present Ife was started by Oduduwa who far predates Jesus whose birth flaged off the beginning of the 2000 year period. Pray tell how you then come to the conclusion of Ile-Ife, whose political father predates Jesus, is just 2000 years.

4. You said 'There are numerous Ife sites that were dated older than the present Ife. A new Ife was inaugurated 10060 years ago and that Ife has shifted locations pretty much'. Please mention these dated sites?

5. The many artefacts clearly shows there were different periods in the present Ife site considering the pattern of arts that vary by dating. This points to the rise and death of different waves of arts within Ife. The excavated bronze heads not only showed there was rulership pre-Oduduwa, it also showed how they were dressed, marked and their heads were covered. All of these and more point to the fact that Oodaye, Oyelagbo, Otu Ife all existed on the same site Ile-Ife is on. Please tell why you think the dated artefacts are wrong and you are right?

6. Ifa that mentioned Ife Oodaye, Ife Ooye and Otu Ife mentioned places and names that are still in existence in Ife right now. Are you saying Ifa is wrong and you are correct?

Answering these questions will make me capitulate, I necessarily do not enjoy back and forth. It is either I'm tapping into knowledge or I'm sharing new information.

The Ijebu capital was at Eredo before being relocated to Ijebu Ode. Thats the point and there must have been other capitals as well. The Awujale's palace is now at Ijebu ode but it was at Eredo at one time. I never said Awujale was in Ijebu Igbo, Ijebu Igbo is one of the Ijebu towns.
Answers
1 Ife Ot u was destroyed. No one knows the location. Otu means scattered. Do you know the location? Maybe Ife Oodaye is thesame as Ife Ot u, I am still researching that. Ife Oodaye too has disappeared, what we have now is Ife Ooyelagbo which started off as a remnant or the survivors of the disestablishment or destruction of Ife Oodaye. We now have the Ife Ooyelagbo which was established 10060 years ago. Just like the people in the present Ife have Ife tuntun towards the border of Ondo on their land and may relocate there if they feel like, the old IFE Ooyelagbo too relocated capital a couple of times. All was Ife land, the whole of the Yoruba area and even beyond. The present location was an Ife province called Igbomokun. I believe the 90 kings were Obas of Ife and not that of Igbomokun and if they are of Igbomokun, then Ife must have an even longer King list.

2
The new Yoruba year starts June 3 every year and I believe Oduduwa arrived post Islam since it is just 50 kings ago. Use an average reign length of the last few Obas, then multiply by the number of post Oduduwa Obas to arrive at an approximate date

3
I do not believe Oduduwa predates Jesus, I was just using 2 thousand years ago date as claimed by a commentator on the thread. I believe Oduduwa came after Islam

4
There are many ancient Ife sites like Ife Ijumu in Kogi, Ufeke in Idanre and others in Kwara. Pls research for yourself

5
Ot u may imply a violent end to an advanced civilization. Olodumare ma je ki ile di ahoro mo wa lori. Ilu o ni tu lori wa. You dont have the art or technology of Ot u Ife or Ife Oodaye. What you have is the remnants of Ooyelagbo. A pitiful remnant is what we have.

6
Lagere is in Ife, also in Gbongan. Okesa in Ilesa, also in Ado Ekiti. Ilare in Ot u Ife, also in Oodaye and Ooyelagbo does not make all those places thesame

9jacrip:
Bro, you've not answered the question.

Historians generally agree Ile-Ife is one of the few places with their original sites; this is born out of the dating of the excavated artifacts in places around Ife but here you claim something different.

Oyo, Ijesa being moved does not mean Ife was moved.
Military oriented towns tend to move a lot so that premise is faulty and should not be entertained.

Ikire moved from Akire house in Ife, they moved to Ikire Ile which is towards Oba river going to Iwo before they moved to their present place. The ikire-ile is still within the present Ikire - they've not for once moved.

Ijebu Igbo has been on its original site since whenever.

Ile-Ife and Jesus began at the same time when records go to show Ile-Ife had existed way before Jesus and even predated Abraham?

Ile-Ife began 2000 years ago yet discoveries abound showing settlement and system going into way earlier periods?

The Awujale has moved capital severally. Around 1000 AD, the capital was at Eredo in the present Lagos state, a place identified as the largest city in the medieval world. Both Ijebu ode and Ijebu Igbo are apparently new cities. The Awujale was headquartered in Eredo in the past and it was contemporary to an ancient Ife, when Oduduwa arrived, they married in instead of abdicating like others. You might think those ancient people lived in tiny villages but they actually lived in huge metropolises, built storey buildings and etc.

It is you people that keep dating Ife to 51 Kings ago, other people know it is 141 kings ago at various locations.

9jacrip:
Start listing these 10,000 Ife sites abeg.

This debate is pedestrian my bro. Do you know that even Oyo that is a new identity has had several relocation of the capital? All of Iseyin, Igboho and etc were Oyo ile at one time or the other. The present Oyo was established by Alaafin Atiba (Ojo pa sekere mode). The Ijesha that was recently created has had more than four capitals.

What you need to know is that there was a time that Ife was the only Yoruba identity as a continuation of the tradition of the first point on Earth that had a terresrtrial civilization. During that time that everybody was Ife, the capital was moved around. That period began 10060 years ago. This present Ife was established around 2000 years ago, if we were still using the old tradition properly, Ife would have been relocated. Prior to 10060 years ago, there were earlier Ifes, maybe those were the Oodayes.

muafrika:
Is he a god?

Esu is an orisa that manifests or incarnates in people. If you insist on the rule of law in the face of tyranny for instance, you are Esu to the tyrant.

If you suggest to someone to do something obviously unfair to see if he has integrity, you are also Esu to the person. Esu is not God or god actually. Esu is an orisa.

YourNemesis:
While many rulers might have ruled in Ife before the arrival of Oduduwa, is there anything that says that these kings ruled in another Ife other than the present one we all know?

There are numerous Ife sites that were dated older than the present Ife. A new Ife was inaugurated 10060 years ago and that Ife has shifted locations pretty much.

Radoillo:
I'm done, Lawani. It looks like we're about to begin the inevitable going-round-in-circles game. Just keep your series of ancient Ifes on your side of the Niger; they had nothing to do with us and our achievements.


On the topic: A number of the Olozas had names beginning with 'Ade'. I read in one work by Biodun Adediran that 'Ade-' names did not become current among the Yoruba prior to about the 18th century. I don't know how true that statement is.

That is true, though Ade has always meant crown. It may mean the Olozas or Olojas of Ugbodumila were the first to start fixing Ade to names. I will make research to find out if there are any ancient Yoruba monarchs with an Ade name. I doubt it really.

Aole, Abisipa, Sango and etc are names of Alaafins. The present one is Adeyemi the second. Sijuwade is a name containing Ade and it is the name of Olubuse the second, the late Ooni. Owa Obokuns are Atakunmosa, Bepo, Biladu, Aromolaran and etc, Aromolaran the second is on the throne and his personal name is Adekunle. It is remarkable that ancient monarchs did not use Ade as prefix to names.

Radoillo:
The artefacts had been buried for a thousand years, and their memory largely erased; so of course their discovery would come as a bit of surprise. But the interesting thing here is that when the anthropologist, Onwuejeogwu, showed pictures of these bronzes to illiterate elders at Agukwu, they were able to identify 90% of them and also told the anthropologists the uses of 85% of them. They wouldn't have been able to do that if the works were not of the same cultural paradigm as the historic Nri. If I took the same pictures to Ife and showed it to Ife elders, would they be able to tell me what 85% of them were used for in a ritual context?

If you say the Igbo couldn't have produced the works because the present-day Igbo were unaware they were there before they were dug up, did Ife know they were there, then? If they didn't, too, then what's your point really?



No, sir, the connection IS NOT obvious. Art historians have written over and over these past decades about how distinct and apparently unconnected the art of both places are. The two people used different types of alloys. The two people used different techniques in producing their work. Some of the techniques used in Ife were unknown at Igbo-Ukwu; some of the techniques used at Igbo-Ukwu were unknown at Ife. You should read the work of experts more rather than sitting in your room and making things up.

At least in this regard there are traditions in support of an Ife-Benin diffusion. Where are the traditions in support of an Ife-IgboUkwu diffusion? Non-existent. In any case, the Bini did make their own brass works, not the Ife - even if they originally may have learnt from Ife smiths. What you are saying here is that Ife smiths did the actual execution of the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes. Your Bini analogy therefore fails.


Hahahahaha!Such obsolete, ethnocentric line of reasoning. Thinly-veiled tribalistic nonsense. Comparing Tiv level of social organization with the level of organisation in the Nri area shows how unread and ill-informed you actually are. The only part of Igboland that had the same level of fragmentary and dispersed settlement pattern and political organisation as the Tiv was the northeastern Igbo area. Read more.



You are embarrassing yourself. Tribute came to Nri from all over Anambra State and Enugu State (I won't speak of the Western Igbo area, as I do not know the details of their involvement with Nri). There are easily several hundreds of towns and villages in the two aforementioned states from which tribute reached Nri.

The 'most' who did not send tribute to Nri were the southern and eastern Igbo who did not acknowledge Nri's spiritual pre-eminence. There were easily more Igbo villages who paid tribute to Nri than the ones who paid tribute to the Attah-Igala and the Oba of Benin combined. Only the fringe communities in Nsukka acknowledged the Attah-Igala. And the Igbo-speaking areas from which Oba got any form of recognition that would include tribute-paying did not even extend as far as Ibusa in Delta State, not to say anything about the southeast proper.



If the Eze Nri is not a king, but a mere priest, then the Ooni of Ife is a mere priest and no king. That's all I'm saying on this.



Igbos were not organised in small independent villages. Villages (ebos) combined with other villages to form quarters (onuku); onuku combined with other onuku to form the town, or what anthropologists called a village group. Such towns or village-groups could in precolonial times have a population of between 5,000 and well over 18,000. Arochukwu was reckoned in the 19th century to have up to 50,000 souls. After the Anglo-Aro war in the early 20th century, the population was put by the British at over 25,000.

Your underestimation of Igbo community sizes is no doubt based on material that make general statements about the Igbo based on prevailing stereotypes of tiny villages with no visible rulers.



It seems obvious only to you, my friend.

Arochukwu's socio political organisation was like that of the Yoruba, not similar to Nri who lived in villages. The Eze Aro is like a Yoruba monarch, not like an Nri priest. I am not saying people from Ife Osun state made those bronze works but I believe the people who made those works are people affiliated with an ancient Ife. This year June 3 will be the beginning of 10060th year of the Ife calendar. When that era started and up to 5 thousand years after, there were no Yorubas or Igbos but Ife people.

Ife was the political as well as the spiritual capital, other Yoruba states are Ife successors, that is never denied. Many have eclipsed Ife and that is normal but all still acknowledge Ife as origin. It is a bit different from the Eze Nri status. Ife is a state of its own with towns and villages and extracts no tribute from any of the successor states who are fully independent and separately run. The Ooni rules Ife and not any other Yoruba land. The Eze Nri does not rule anywhere. There is a kind of similarity though but yet they are different. One is a monarch and the other is not.

The Ifa corpus speaks about Ot u Ife. There is Ife Oodaye and Ife Ooyelagbo. Are you saying Ile Ife approximates all those? Please there is a need for objectivity. The Yoruba calendar will be 10060th year by June 3 while this Ile Ife is not more than 2500 years at most. It is acknowwledged that 90 kings ruled in Ife before Oduduwa arrived. Saying everything started 51 Obas ago is doing a great disservice to the legacy you were mandated to preserve. This I see as shameful.

muafrika:
So, is Esu a temptor? Does he work by giving temptations? Does he give good or bad suhgestions?

Is he the human intuition?

I will not say Esu gives good or bad advise but it is there at the junction of making good or bad, fair or unfair decisions and Esu will be happy with you if you are rational.

Radoillo:
The falseness of the idea that 'farming villagers' cannot develop a caste of highly skilled craftsmen in bronze or any other medium is what I've been trying to demonstrate to you, but you are clearly not going to budge from your "impressive development only occurs in large urban communities" position.



Informed Igbos know of a shared ancestry with the Yorubas. But since splitting off from our parent stock many thousands of years ago, we've pretty much gone our separate ways; ergo, bringing the Yoruba into an Igbo artistic tradition that is only a little over one thousand years old (Igbo-Ukwu) is anachronistic.

Read: Ife (any of the Ifes), Yoruba, or Proto-Yoruba had nothing to do with Igbo-Ukwu; and people did not necessarily have to live in cities before they could produce highly sophisticated work such as the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes were.

You may well be right but you miss my point which is that finding those bronzes buried there does not mean the Nri made it and it is highly unlikely they did. The bronzes are a surprise to everybody including the Nri. They never saw anything like it, while art works like that are in Ife. That they are connected to Ife is obvious. Benin bronze works are different from Ife's but it is acknowledged it originated from Ife and such bronze expertise is found only in this place, not in any other place in the world, it can not be denied that it is the property of Ife. If you found such works in Tiv land today, it would be out of place as the Igbo Ukwu bronzes are out of place on Nri land. It would still have to be explained with Ife, the custodian of the art which is why I arrived at that conclusion. I don't believe the Nri controlled up to 200 villages at any time even 100 and never more than religious matters and some discussions, most Igbos do not acknowledge ever paying tax to Nri, some who were Nri paid tax to the Attah Igala, while some paid to the Oba of Benin. In reality, Nri had no Kings and the Eze Nri was a priest. The pre colonial Igbos were organised into small independent villages that were really independent, though some of them were partially incorporated under the Benin or the Igala. If you say the Eze Nri subjected even one hundred thousand people to taxation, that would be a misrepresentation of History, what they got were donations, not taxes and it could not have financed such bronze expertise.

The man buried at Igbo Ukwu was a monarch, a real one that knew the world, not an Nri priest. The thing is a puzzle but it seems obvious that the bronzes were not made by socio-political ancestors of the Nri.

9jacrip:
But the many excavations done and their datings disputes your claim here.

The bronze works, the Oranmiyan Obelisks, the many artefacts in the palace spanning 350BC.

What are you saying this man?

The bronze works are not up to 2000 years ago, maybe some other things are older by a bit but it all agrees with the fact that the present Ife is just the last successor in a series of Ifes. That should be always stated as it adds credibility