₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
Again, Jesus Christ was no human sacrifice to God.

He was led like a lamb to His death at the cross - He didn't resist- was He not? Hence, the lamb reference was apt, and had little or nothing to do with Old testament refence to sacrifice of lambs , not even that described in Exodus 12.

Jesus Christ instead gave up His life so that His mission on earth, to His friends, would be fulfilled.

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Kobojunkie:
No it isn't something anyone can do, nor control. The gift is not willed by the speaker .

Then how do you explain all the non-christians that do it?

Kobojunkie:
Speaking in tongues or in gibberish tongues is not willed by the one through whom the sound comes from but by the spirit(again not to be confused with Holy Spirit) controlling the tongue.

I thought you meant that you once spoke in tongues(spirit) while you were a Christian and the phenomenon never left you even after. I have read of some who no claim to no longer believe but still able to speak under the influence.

I am saying there is no influence, it is something anybody can do. I spoke it before I became a Christian, I spoke it as a Christian and I can speak it now as an atheist. It is not "spirit" driven at all.

Kobojunkie:
You are still hammering on the wrong thing.

God gave man His Law, Jesus Christ - that is simply what happened.

Jesus Christ was not a gift but a promised Law/contract, and agreement that God promised He would make with the world.

He was a sacrifice that was human, a human sacrifice. He is symbolised by a lamb and you know what they did with lambs in the OT.

Kobojunkie:
Can you expound on this experience of glossolalia? Was it just kids speaking nonsense of their own volition, or did it come with a feeling of being taken over by an invisible force and being made to emit strange sounding words?

Nope, no feeling of being taken over, we did it at will. All glossolalia or speaking in tongues is the vocalisation of phonetic syllables, which was what we did. It did sound like we were speaking a foreign language to our ears.

Kobojunkie:
It says He gave, not gave up.

So, they were both in on it, why blame God for anything then. By the way, Jesus Christ gained tons of glory from this...so why pretend Him a victim of some sort.

If you give a gift do expect to get it back?

Not blaming the god but realising that the god is not exactly a good concept, a god that requires human sacrifice is not a good god. Also the story as told means the god cheated by having his gift return to him. You can't eat your cake and have it as they say but not for the god apparently.

Kobojunkie:
Pretty much the same way I would feel after eating say a big bowl of rice which has alpha-1,4 bonds of large polysaccharides?

Sure, maybe not not with the same intensity but you would feel mildly euphoric. I just finished a meal of jollof rice myself and a big bottle of Fanta, I feel good I tell you.

Kobojunkie:
Maybe I got you wrong then. You are saying that this speaking in tongues you talk of was from when you were a child and not as an adult? Care to expand on what you refer to as speaking in tongues then?

According to Mark 16 vs 17 - 18, the mark is on those who believe in Jesus Christ. So, if you never believed in Jesus Christ, you can't be marked by Him. It has little or nothing to do with being "chosen".

I spoke in tongues or had experience of glossolalia when I was a child. It was something my siblings and I did as a form of play amongst ourselves. At that point we didn't know that the concept of speaking in tongues was even a thing, we just did it when playing and even our parents didn't know what we were doing. Also we didn't know of believing in Jesus so it was not tied to any religious experience. Are you saying we were marked?

Hismasterpiece:
I don't just believe it because i heard stories about it. I believe it because it is written.

Let me ask you a question. When you were a Christian was it because of a personal conviction you had or because your parents were Christians and took you to church with them every sunday?

You believe what you read in written stories, not much different from the ones you heard.

I became a believer in Jesus before my parents and siblings. It was a personal conviction and not because anybody forced me, I professed Jesus of my own accord.

Kobojunkie:
According to Wiki, it is a digestive enzyme.

It breaks down sugars to the kind found during the preparation of malted drinks and alcohol. So you have someone who is relaxed and having sugar enter his bloodstream how do you expect such a person would feel?

Hismasterpiece:
It does matter why Jesus was sacrificed. And yes there is a difference between what the king did and what God did. The king's sons were sacrificed against their will and the motive behind their sacrifice, according to scripture was selfish. The king sacrificed his sons for his own personal interest but that is exactly contrary to the sacrifice of Jesus.

According to scripture Jesus gave His Life freely, He wasn't forced to do it. He never fought back, He never resisted, even on the cross He prayed for His murderers. Show me one person who was the subject of a ritual sacrifice that was consenting to their death. The motive behind Jesus' sacrifice wasn't God's own personal interest or in God's favor, but that of mankind in general.

Also, you can't actually compare the sacrifice of Jesus to ritual sacrifices. Do you know why? There has never been any record of a victim of ritual sacrifice being raised from the dead by the god he was sacrificed to after three days. But Jesus was raised from the dead, and today He reigns as Lord over all creation. Hallelujah!!

P.S My example wasn't supposed to be taken literally i was just trying to illustrate the sacrifice of Jesus. It is literally impossible for something like that to happen in real life. But just out of curiosity i would like to know... if you were the criminal in the example, would you let the man's son die for you? Just asking...

How do you know they were sacrificed against their will?

The god's interest was served by sacrificing Jesus just like the king's was. Also Jericho was saved to I guess the people of Jericho in that tale should have been happy that their king sacrificed his sons to save them.

The Aztecs used to sacrifice people too and by all accounts the people went willingly to their deaths so that makes it okay?

A sacrifice is not something you expect to receive back so basically your god did ojoro and got his own sacrifice back while others have to be content with knowing what they lost.

I can't really say since I would not rape and murder but in a situation where in other to save me some other person would have to loose their life my first instinct will be to reject such a solution. In fact I would not consciously accept such a solution unless I was not in a position to affect the decision but if it was a matter of choice I would reject it.

Kobojunkie:
John 3 vs 16 says God gave Jesus Christ, His New Covenant Law , to the world. What has that verse got to do with this?

So when you give something up it is not a sacrifice? Or what is your definition of sacrifice? Secondly it was the god that decided on the course not simply Jesus making a choice according to the tale.

Hismasterpiece:
I see. So when you were a believer you witnessed people speaking in tongues without giving an interpretation. I can understand that.

Truth be told, i never have seen anyone give an interpretation.

But that doesn't mean it can't happen. I've read and heard accounts of people speaking in tongues and interpreting.

Just because you haven't experience it doesn't mean the scripture isn't true.

By the way you never told me what denomination you belonged to and what their beliefs are, so i can't trust your experience more than i do scripture.

This is one of the challenges, most of these things are something you heard second hand. You yourself have never witnessed interpretation going on yet I bet the church you attend has people praying in tongues very openly. If none of you know what the next person is saying how is your situation now different?

You never asked what denomination I was of or what they believed. I'll tell you anyway, I attended Living Faith Church aka Winners for 25+ years and if you know Winners you'll know they firmly believe in the same things you are saying.

Kobojunkie:
Oh, Stress reduction is what you describe as euphoria?

Check what the alpha-amylase enzyme does.

Kobojunkie:
He chose you?

Nah! He sent His Law, Jesus Christ, into the world so that those who would chose Him can gain access to Him through His Law, Jesus Christ. I think you had better read John 3 vs 16 - 21 again. You chose to believe in Him at one time and then you chose to give up on that endeavor it seems...

You said:

Kobojunkie:
According to what is written of it in Mark 16 vs 17 - 18 , it is given as a sign that one believes. So, you don't have to first know of it before you are marked.

In response to when I said I spoke it as a child before I even knew of believing in Jesus. So according to you I was marked to have it despite the god knowing I would become an atheist?

Kobojunkie:
What euphoria comes with speaking in tongues?
Affect their brain in what way?

Neuroimaging of brain activity during glossolalia does not show activity in the language areas of the brain. In other words, it may be characterized by a specific brain activity and it can be a learned behaviour.
A 1973 experimental study highlighted the existence of two basic types of glossolalia: a static form which tends to a somewhat coaction to repetitiveness and a more dynamic one which tends to free association of speech-like elements.
A study done by the American Journal of Human Biology found that speaking in tongues was associated with both a reduction in circulatory cortisol, and enhancements in alpha-amylase enzyme activity – two common biomarkers of stress reduction that can be measured in saliva. Several sociological studies report various social benefits to engaging in Pentecostal glossolalia, such as an increase in self-confidence
SOURCE

Kobojunkie:
And you know what else, if i am not mistaken, you were also born-again...you ate communion at one point, were water baptized and so born of spirit(not to be confused with Holy Spirit) aka saved.

Speaking in tongues(even the silly speaking in gibberish) is a spirit thing - it is operated by spirit - not to be confused with Holy Spirit.

So the god choose me despite knowing I would become an atheist?

Kobojunkie:
According to what is written of it in Mark 16 vs 17 - 18 , it is given as a sign that one believes. So, you don't have to first know of it before you are marked.

Now that I don't believe?

Bishopkingsley:
John 14:17 ►
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

New Living Translation
He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.


Bye

According your same bible you should be able to do greater than Jesus yet with your speaking in tongues you have not changed water to wine talk less of doing greater. Call me when you do.

Bishopkingsley:
Those who don't have speaking in tongues ability will say bad things about it because they don't have the gift

We that have it know what we say

It can't be explained the power that comes out from you when the gift works it like God is in possession of your physical body

It so awesome and sweet It like you can walk on air and it so powerful you can't say another language until the auction power lift from you

I can't truly explain with words how powerful the holy spirit work with our spirit when we speak in tongues

LoL! You are simply enjoying the euphoria that comes when speaking in tongues because it is affecting your brain. I feel this euphoria too, it’s not evidence of your god’s power. They did studies with MRI while people were speaking in tongues and they could see it affect the brain. If it was your god’s power by now you should have been able to change water to wine or gone into a hospital and healed everybody there.

Kobojunkie:
Instead He gave up His life on behalf of His friends.

Are you forgetting John 3:16?

Kobojunkie:
What I said is that Jesus Christ was not a sacrifice to God.

He was a sacrifice to who then?

Hismasterpiece:
When you say a human sacrifice you make is seem like the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is at par with the human ritual killings that happened in post-colonial Nigeria and still happen today and going by that logic you could never be any farther from the truth.

Those ritual killings included taking people's lives forcefully but the sacrifice of Jesus is not like that.

Jesus gave His Life by choice not by force. He left His throne and took off His Glorious Crown in exchange for a cross and a crown of thorns.

Would you like to know why He did that?

Because mankind was condemned because of our sins and God, because He Loves us didn't want us to bear the full weight of our sins had His own Son bear them. And now anyone who repents and believes in Him enters into fellowship with God forever.

Let me give you an example.

Say for instance you committed rape and murder and were sentenced to death by the firing squad.

And the father of the girl you raped and killed, instead of letting you die the death you deserved asked his own son to face the firing squad in your place and he does, and sets you free from having to face the firing squad yourself, would you say that man is good or would you say he is evil?

So, going by my explanation, my answer to your question is yes a human (substitutionary) sacrifice does prove that God is indeed good.

Yes it is on par with ritualistic killing even the Bible declares as much, it calls him the lamb. Lambs were slaughtered and burnt as sacrifice, the imagery is supposed to remind you of the gruesome way he died.

It doesn’t matter why he was sacrificed, it is still a human being sacrificed. Do you recall the story of the king of Jericho who sacrificed his 2 sons to achieve victory, there is no difference between what he did and what you say your god did. They both sacrificed their sons to a god for favorable outcome aka human sacrifice.

In your example I would consider such a man as crazy not good. What loving father would do such a thing to his child?

Hismasterpiece:
I think you need to read my response again.

May be you need to reread your own response again. How many times have you seen anybody interpret speaking in tongues? How many times have you seen any group follow Paul’s injunctions concerning interpretation of speaking in tongues? Going by the criteria you laid out if these are not obeyed then they are not speaking in tongues.

The problem with your approach is you want to negate my experience but you can’t do it without negating yours.

Kobojunkie:
My bad.. I meant to highlight both.

He was not a human sacrifice unto God.

Well he was either not a human or a sacrifice to not be a human sacrifice, if he was both then he was a human sacrifice.

Hismasterpiece:
I really don't think you understand what the Bible refers to as speaking in tongues.

Going by what the Bible teaches, tongues is something exclusive only to 'Spirit filled' of 'Spirit baptized' Christians.

I think i understand where your confusion comes from.

The word 'Tongues'.

Tongues is not a common phrase that people use today. When you speak Yoruba, for instance, if a foreigner is standing alongside you does he say, ' what tongue are you speaking'? No. He says, 'what language are you speaking'.

Most Bible translations use the word 'tongues' when referring to this phenomenon, but the tlv (Tree of Life) version uses the word 'language', which is actually a very accurate translation.

Mar 16:17  These signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak new languages; 

It is a language.

But going by human logic, you have to learn a language to be able to speak it right? But this language is not spoken out of understanding, but rather by inspiration.

The Bible teaches that in order for a person to speak in a new language they must be believers, have the Holy Spirit come upon them after which He bestows upon that person the ability to speak a new language.

You say you can 'speak in tongues'. But when you 'speak in tongues' do you believe you are speaking a different language that can be understood by the person you are speaking to? If your answer to that question is no, then my dear LordReed, you are not speaking in tongues, that is, according to what the Bible teaches.

When a Spirit baptized Christian speaks a new language the following things are true -
0. They are speaking an actual language, which can either be a natural language which is common like in Act 2:6, 8, 11. or a supernatural language which is not common 1Co 14:14.
1. The speaker is not speaking from his own understanding, the Hold Spirit is the one giving him the words. Act 2:4.
2. They are not speaking to their fellow believers, but to God, who understands what they are saying. 1 Corinthians 14:2.
3. They don't understand what they are saying. 1Co 14:14. But can understand if they pray to God for an interpretation. 1Co 14:13.

P.S By the way i think you misunderstood the topic of the thread. The op is simply asking whether a tongue speaker can end up in hell, and not whether tongues is supernatural or not, or whether exclusive to Christians as your response seems to indicate to be your understanding of the question of the thread.

Sabi?

Then no Christian right now speaks in tongues going by your own definition because nobody understands what they are saying nor does anybody interpret.

BTW I didn't respond to the OP but to someone who said speaking in tongues is a gift, it is not.

hupernikao:


The author focused on Christian Bro. And in Christianity, it is taught as a gift.

Doesn't make it one. I repeat anybody can speak in tongues.

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ was not a human sacrifice to God.

So he was not human or he was not a sacrifice, which one?

Hismasterpiece:
Because He sent His Son into the world to be the substitute for sinners.

So a human sacrifice is how we can know your god is good?

Hismasterpiece:
I still don't understand your question

We can't see or test eternal life. heaven, hell and other unseen concepts so how can we know that your god is good?

HellVictorinho:
Can you help me with 500naira?

Please
I will be grateful

Sent 2k.

DCatt:
You mean the enriched Ida for maximum impact just to get tax payer into New York and Jersey? No, you liberal need it more.

The Q storm won't give you money but deaths.

In 20 years you’ll still be waiting for Q Storm. LMAO!