₦airaland Forum

lexiconkabir:
i'm very glad you admitted that the book of solomon is not divine(not introduced as a vision like you stated) then why did paul said all the scriptures are God's breath? did i hear you say it was solomon and his wife? lets see songs of songs8:1-3 "if only you were to me like a brother, nursed by my mothers breast! then if i found you outside, i would kiss you and no one will despise me. i would lead you and bring you to my mothers house, she who has taught me, [b]i would give you spiced wine(i.e vagin'a semen), the nectar of my pomegranate" the woman is clearly lusting over a man that was not her husband, considering the emboldened.

there is big different between inspiration and vision.

When I say , the book is not introduced as a vision, I mean something like this "thus say the Lord " the writer did not begin like that.compear tp others books.

Annunaki:
And to make matters worse, this one man was a villain, armed robber, murderer, rapist, paedophile and psychopath that had zero credibility.

word brother, word. Nice one.

Demmzy15:
Mr. Malvisguy we believe everything the Prophet Muhammad says because it's from the Almighty, so any problem?

in the bible, God always revealed himself to his prophet and someone will confirmed it , Abraham claimed God spoke to him and Sarah confirmed it , Moses heard from God and Aaron confirmed it .David heard and solomon confirmed it. Elijah heard and elisha confirmed it , the list goes on and on. But the case of muhammed is even worse, it was not God himself that revealed himself to muhammed, but angel Gabriel who comes with a different attitude contrary from the biblical angel Gabriel. Who confirmed it ? NO one bear witness of his alleged calling, it was his wife, kadijah who never had an encounter with God angel , she convinced muhammed of his prophethood . The faith of muslims worldwide begin in an encounter in the cave of hira.

lexiconkabir:
let me quote what i said in one thread, since songs of solomon is a pornfilled book, that describes b'reast of women as wine, and where a woman is lusting over a man thinking of him s'ucking her(sorry to say), is that in anyway divine? should it even be in the "holybible"?

and it was the same song of solomon muslims claimed, the book prophesied the coming of muhammed ? Confusion!!!

The song of solomon is about a man who is describing the body of his wife. The book was not introduced as a vision nither is the word "God" mention only in verse 16 (I think) even the new testament church did not make reference on it , the reason the book is in the bible, is because it was about solomon (one of isreal Great) he was describing his wife body.

The song of solomon mention brea'st and you are complaining, do you want me to mention the verse in the quran that went even worse in mentioning se'x ? And the hadith ?

lexiconkabir:
it seems you just learnt this word "nonsense" with two exclamation signs, alright, i've read the op and its filled with nonsense!!

let me quote what I say on the other thread.

The Qur’an is based completely on the
personal experiences of one illiterate
man spanning a period of 23 years.Only one person allegedly saw the “angel.” Only one person allegedly heard a voice. The entire faith is limited to one book with only one person who allegedly received the vision. There is absolutely no way to verify anything. Our question is, “Does not this then mean that the only way to become a Muslim is to take this one man’s word for it?”

lexiconkabir:
read! malvisguy, read!!

nonsense!! Read the op

lexiconkabir:
i dont even know why i'm engaging a dumb fellow into an argument, for goodness sake, learn how to read and understand, didnt you do comprehension passage in secondary school? let me make it easy for you. The jews knew he(jesus) was called the messiah, only that they did not believe in him as the messiah, if you are too dumb to understand that, i'm sorry, its not my fault!

I will not engaged you in a war of word, I see, you are frustrated ,hence the insult.

Does your explanation make sense to you? They know Jesus is the messiah but they do not believe in Jesus as the messiah? Seriously ? Even the quran say the Jews boast of killing the messiah. You are absolutely right, no need of engaging you. Peace!

lexiconkabir:
you are so boring and lame, you know? with which answer did the jews replied the pilate? and secondly for the pilate to have ask them if jesus called the messiah is to be killed, it means the jews which are being asked the question knows that jesus was called the messiah only that they did not believe in him.

nonsense!! The Jews knows the messianic prophecy more than you, if they (the Jews) believe He is the messiah, would they have chose barabbas instead ? When pilate wanted to put the inscription "king of the Jews" the Jews reject it.

lexiconkabir:
mr man, it wasnt a prophesy, the Qur'an was telling us what had happened in the past. If you are trying to say that jesus wasnt called the messiah when the claimed "death" of jesus was to take place, then you have click http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-17.htm and see the bible verse where jesus was called the messiah by the jews as the Qur'an says. i must say, this is the most dumb attack on islam!

read the verse again:
Matthew 27:17
So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate
asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or
Jesus who is called the Messiah?"

Its was pilate who request to release one of the victim (barabbas or Jesus) am sure you know, if the Jews believe Jesus is the messiah, they wouldn't have chose barabbas instead of Jesus. So the quran got it all wrong.

joseph1013:
[color=#550000][b]THE FOLLY OF FAITH

I have discussed faith several times with several people of faith and I tell them that faith is WORTHLESS as a way to distinguish truth from untruth and it is DANGEROUS to base your life on faith. They believe faith is vital. That is our disagreement.

What is faith? Faith is believing things without reasonable evidence. In many cases it is believing things with no evidence or, even, believing things when there is good evidence to show your beliefs cannot be true.

Why do I say faith is worthless and dangerous?

1. Faith has no mechanism to help show which things are true and which are false. We know this is so because people believe contradictory things through faith. Compare Christianity and Hinduism. Both cannot be true because they make contradictory claims but both are believed through faith. So you can easily believe things that are not true if you rely on faith.

2. Faith places no limits on what people will believe. Once you accept things on faith you could believe donkeys can talk or a man could live in the belly of a whale or the sun could stand still in the sky or that Cain’s offspring were cursed by god and became black people. (People who use faith have no problem understanding that the faith claims made by other religions are absurd!)

3. Faith encourages certainty. We can rarely be certain about things even when there is abundant evidence but faith leads people to be CERTAIN about things for which there is no evidence. This can be dangerous.

That is why I say faith is worthless and dangerous.

Religionists have no way of denying any of these criticisms of faith but they always seek to show that everyone use faith every day.

For example, they say that when I accept medicine from a doctor, I accept the medicine on faith.

But this response is wrong in logic AND it fails to recognise the difference between faith and risk assessment. I do not use faith but I do make risk assessments. The two are completely different.

Let’s look at the logic of this objection. I use the name of an hypothetical Christian called Lawal. I summarise Lawal's logic as follows:

1. Faith is not a reliable way to determine truth.

2. Everyone, including Joseph1013, find out they have to use faith in everyday life.

3. Lawal uses faith to believe that his god exists.

Lawal’s conclusion: Therefore, use of faith to believe in god is justified.

Wrong conclusion. Even if I were to agree to Lawal's premises, which I do not, the only justified conclusion would be: Some of Joseph1013’s beliefs and my belief in god may be false because we both use an unreliable method to determine truth.

However, I do not agree with premise (2). I do not use faith. When I have to make a decision and have imperfect information (which, I agree is quite often), I do a risk assessment.
]

Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, and let us reason together,saith the LORD."

The Lord encourages Christians to think
and to reason together. The Bible is full of common sense and wisdom. It has been demonstrated to be correct through practice, time, archeology discoveries, and scientific facts. It is not a leap into the unknown, but a leap
based upon common sense and facts.

Christians can be "case makers" precisely because the Christian faith is an evidential faith. When we, as Christians, argue for the truth of the Christian Worldview, we are not sharing an opinion. There either is a God, or there is not. Jesus is that God, or He is not. Salvation comes through Christ alone (as Jesus Himself maintained), or it does not. This is not a matter of opinion, personal preference or wishful thinking. The Christian faith is grounded in evidence that can be assessed and evaluated. The Christian faith is an evidential faith.

Demmzy15:
I've gat better things to do Malviguy!

goodluck.

lexiconkabir:
exact! not exactly. It had no relevance, so i did not want to waste my time with it.

take a look at this again:
Surah 4:157: And their saying:
Surely we have killed the MESSIAH,
Isa son of Marium, the messenger
of Allah; and they did not kill him
nor did they crucify him, but it
appeared to them so (like Isa) and
most surely those who differ therein
are only in a doubt about it; they
have no knowledge respecting it, but
only follow a conjecture, and they
killed him not for sure.

The people that are saying "we have killed the messiah" they are the Jews , according to the prophecy, it is the messiah that will restore the kingdom to the Jews. Think! Would the hostile Jews call Jesus the “Messiah” when they have rejected him as the Messiah? It must be remembered that the Jewish religious leaders even objected when Pilate wrote a title saying,“King of the Jews ". (John 19:19-22). It is, therefore, illogical for the Jews to boastfully say that “we have killed the Messiah” when they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah in the first place.

malvisguy212:
Those who died Prior to the coming of muhammed to clear this out , who's gonna take the blame for their unbelief ? Allah for tricking the Jews or satan ?

they are both ONE person,

lexiconkabir:
The best copier and paster of nairaland , probably he dont even know what he copied and pasted.

Demmzy15:
See how the Olodo book space above you to put in another gibberish copy and paste. This guys are damn desperate and funny!

trash, NO answer to the op ?

lexiconkabir:
no! he actually posted that dot to bring the thread to life, because nobody seemed to comment since 8:53am that he opened the thread whereas there were 34views, he was so frustrated around 5:03pm and he had to post that dot, luckily for him i commented

so you know the exactly time I created this topic but because you cannot defend what is made plain to you, instead you ignore it ? Okay

.

chuna1985:
The stupidity caused by Christianity n religion has reached the roof.

alright.

Jesus is a very important figure in Islam.
Muslims believe, Jesus is just a prophet,
He was merely a prophet, a prophet
whose second coming will bring about
Allah’s judgement on the human race.

In the fourth book of the Quran, al-Nisa
(or “The Women”), we are told that Jesus
never died on the cross. Instead, Allah is a gifted trickster. Behold:

Quran 4:157 And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did
they crucify him;but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Quran 4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in
Might and Wise.

No reason were given why Jesus was snatch from death. Allah couldn’t wait a few more days for Jesus to be executed. He needed Jesus in heaven right away. But he also needed Jesus to be executed. The solution? Snatch Jesus
from earth right now and pick someone else to wear Jesus’ face long enough to fool the executioners and the Jews.

In completing this absurd trick, Allah
must’ve known the following:

The crucifixion of Jesus would be used to create Christianity,the largest religion
the world has ever known–a rival religion, mind you. So it was all a ruse to
trick people into following the LARGEST
religion. Unfortunately for these cursed
Christian souls, Allah waited another 600 years before bothering to mention that the Divine Jesus myth in the bible was all a lie.

Those who died Prior to the coming of muhammed to clear this out , who's gonna take the blame for their unbelief ? Allah for tricking the Jews or satan ?

chuna1985:
"""but they seem to be at least young adults,
since they are both engage in a trade. for their
living"""


How can they engage in a trade when for a living when only 4 people were existing in the world at that time.

it dosent matter the population, as long as the bible indicate ' Cain is a farmer and abel is a Shepard'

dalaman:
So the christian God is not fair. Nice to know.

read my post again, the bible say ALL have sin , in oder to be fair, God must judge ALL sin , so therefore God must condemned ALL people , Those (unbelievers ) who want to experience the fairness of God will receive just that - God will judge them fairly.

For the rest of us, who prefer mercy to
fairness, God will save us, whether we be Hindus, Buddhists or whatever.

Surah 4:89:They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). BUT IF THEY TURN RENEGADES, SIZE THEM AND SLAY THEM WHEREVER YE FIND THEM .” (Yusuf Ali)

According to the Qur’an, those who
became Muslims and then renegades or
deserts the religion of Islam is be killed.
The greatest threat to apostates in the
Muslim world comes not from the state,
but from private individuals. In fact, it is
the duty of all faithful Muslims to kill
apostates. Yet again, we can see that
Allah has given individual Muslims the
right to act as executioners.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52,
Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn ‘Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘IF SOMEBODY (A MUSLIM) DISCARD HIS RELIGION , KILL HIM.’

In Islam, not only Muslims who leave
Islam are considered as apostates but
also those whose behavior goes contrary
to the teachings of the Qur’an may be
considered as such. Muhammad even
had a man executed for consuming
alcohol.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number
4467:
Narrated Mu’awiyah ibn AbuSufyan:
The Prophet said: If they (the people)
drink wine, flog them, again if they
drink it, flog them. Again if they drink
it, kILL THEM.

“A 25-year-old Palestinian who hanged
his sister with a rope: ‘I did not kill her,
but rather helped her to commit
suicide and to carry out the death
penalty she sentenced herself to. I did
it to wash with her blood the family
honor that was violated because of her
and in response to the will of society
that would not have had any mercy on
me if I didn’t. Society taught us from
childhood that blood is the only
solution to wash the honor.’”

“In Pakistan, Samia Sarwar, 29, mother
of two boys aged 4 and 8, was shot
dead in lawyer Hina Jillani’s office by a
bearded man accompanying her
mother and uncle. ‘He’s my helper, I
can’t walk,’ said the mother, when Hina
told the two men to get out. As the
mother went to sit down in front of
Hina’s desk, and Samia stood up from
her chair, the bearded man whipped
out a pistol from his waistcoat and shot
Samia in the head, killing her
instantly.”

Abu Qash, Palestine: Amira Abu
Hanhan Qaoud (mother of 9 children)
killed her daughter ‘Rofayda Qaoud’
who had been raped by her brothers
and was impregnated. Armed with a
plastic bag, razor and wooden stick,
Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter’s
room last Jan. 27, 2003. “Tonight you
die, Rofayda,” she told the girl, before
wrapping the bag tightly around her
head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda’s
wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of
“No, mother, no!” After her daughter
went limp, Qaoud struck her in the
head with the stick. The 43-year-old
mother of nine said. “I had to protect
my children. This is the only way I
could protect my family’s honor.”

dalaman:
Yeah, the billions born into other religions that lack this mythical eternal life of yours will all burn in hell, right?

God created human beings
with conscience that 1) tells them when
they do wrong and 2) tells them that God exists. When we violate our conscience (something that all human beings have done), we know that we have sinned.

Christianity says that all have sinned
and, therefore, fall under the judgment
of God. In order to be fair, God must
judge all sin. Therefore, in order to be
fair, God should condemn all people to
hell. However, the Christian God is not
fair, since He chooses to save those who
accept His mercy. Those who want to
experience the fairness of God will
receive just that - God will judge them
fairly. For the rest of us, who prefer mercy to fairness, God will save us, whether we be Hindus, Buddhists or whatever. Those who haven't heard the gospel will be judged on the basis of the information they were given and how they responded to it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out whether or not you are doing what your conscience tells you to do.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His
great mercy has caused us to be born
again to a living hope through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the
dead.

DEagle1:
This is irrespective of your religion. All religions believe in life after death though belief differs. according to what you know or have learnt, where do dead children and mad people go after death? This had been quite a puzzle so I brought it here as usual.

the bible say "God is a righteous judge, a merciful God " I reject the idea that say God will judge the mentally people with the basic of Good deed and bad deed , because how can the mental understand Good work ? If he can discern Good work then he will be able to discern bad work . Automatically we can say ,the mental understand both good and bad just like we do .

At op.
Jesus shown Great love to people who are possessed by evil spirit, people who are cutting themselves with stone and crying out loud what we called today as mentally unstable people.

In Mark 5 Jesus sent the evil spirits out of a demon possessed man who "was always crying out and cutting himself with stones" When the healed man asked to travel with Jesus, he was told, "Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had MERCY ON YOU " . The mercy of Jesus and what he does for those unable to care for themselves appears to be a general biblical principle that can apply to anyone unable to express faith in Jesus on his or her own.

And also,The Bible says to those that Know to do Good and do it not. It is to them sin. If one hasn't come to know good from evil they are not accountable for their actions. They are covered by God's grace.

tartar9:
in other words,you've equated murderers,rapists,terrorists.... with the rest of decent humans(I don't know if you're among us) including the children.

what's your point?

lexiconkabir:
old news? so you believe those that wrote an article out of hearsay and you discard a credible source such as BBC that got their claim directly from the people that actually did the test? you must be a joker! since you termed what veda.xcool posted as "old" news, then the "new" news must have done another test. mr man you have nothing to say!

check the dates of the source I and vedacool provide.

vedaxcool:
Another liar bites the dust!

the source you provide is "old" news (22 July 2015)

vedaxcool:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

I will be back to expose the Evangelism by Lies expert.

This is the actual BBC post, I will be quoting relevant places only

Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says.


The scholar in the above is clearly stating that the actual writing of the verse didn't predate Islam.


First-hand witness

Prof Thomas says that some of the passages of the Koran were written down on parchment, stone, palm leaves and the shoulder blades of camels - and a final version, collected in book form, was completed in about 650.

He says that "the parts of the Koran that are written on this parchment can, with a degree of confidence, be dated to less than two decades after Muhammad's death".

[size=18pt]"These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed."[/size]

We clearly read here that Professor is saying that there has been no alteration, and that the "oldest" text actuall was written less than 2 decades after the death of Prophet Muhammad pbuh

Source

Compare this with the op and you would conclude that lying is permitted and koshar for the op

Edited

check the news , it on the news , this site is not a religion web >>> https://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/carbon-dating-suggests-worlds-oldest-koran-is-even-older-than-the-prophet-muhammad/

A copy of the Koran that may predate the
Prophet Muhammad could rewrite the
early history of Islam, scholars believe.
Scientists at the University of Oxford said
last month that carbon dating of a
fragment of the holy text held by a
Birmingham library suggested that it was
among the oldest in the world.
At the time the discovery was hailed as
confirmation that the Koran had
faithfully preserved the words passed on
by Muhammad for more than 1,350
years. Now, several historians think the
parchment appears to be so old that it
contradicts most accounts of the
Prophet’s life
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/faith/article4542663.ece

http://m.digitaljournal.com/news/religion/carbon-dating-suggests-early-quran-is-older-than-muhammad/article/442550

lexiconkabir:
i have refuted this on the same thread you gave, the op isnt a muslim(stop lying pa malvisguy) the test was 95.4% accurate, now how do you expect such test to tell the exact dating?

refute a fact ? How did you do that ?

vedaxcool:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

I will be back to expose the Evangelism by Lies expert.

actually, a muslim in nairaland was the first to open this topic.
https://www.nairaland.com/2566650/scientists-prove-worlds-oldest-quran

When I do some research , I found this.
I wish you goodluck in your research.

The link you paste was still saying the samething.

auwal89:
u are not serious u thought that Quran is like bible that u alter,u can't memorise bible but Muslims memorises Quran and u can't add or deduct a single verse from it because u do memorise everything in it

ok

Ishilove,Lalasticlala

A recent discovery of the world's oldest
Quran has "startling" implications for
Islam.
The fragments of the text were tested for age, revealing the words of Islam are at least 1,370 years old,according to The
British Broadcasting Corporation. More
specifically, though, experts believe the
text was written between A.D 568-645.

"They could well take us back to within a
few years of the actual founding of
Islam," David Thomas tells BBC. Thomas
is an Oxford University's professor of
Christianity and Islam. "According to
Muslim tradition, the Prophet
Muhammad received the revelations that form the (Quran,) the scripture of Islam, between the years 610 and 632, the year of his death."

Other scholars are reading between the
lines, establishing that the document
followed today was altered to fit the new Islamic agenda Muhammad founded.

"This gives more ground to what have
been peripheral views of the Quran's
genesis, like that Muhammad and his
early followers used a text that was
already in existence and shaped it to fit
their own political and theological
agenda, rather than Muhammad
receiving a revelation from heaven,"
Keith Small of Oxford's Bodleian Library
says.

The Muslim faith is built on five pillars,
according to PBS, one of which is the
declaration of faith, which claims, "There is no god but God and Muhammad is his messenger."

But how could God speak to Muhammad to write the Quran if the book predated the messenger?

"It destabilizes, to put it mildly, the idea
that we can know anything with certainty about how the (Quran) emerged—and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions," Historian Tom Holland says.

Many blogs have challenged the Quran's authorship in the past, most of them decreeing the Muslim holy book was " Allah-inspired," much like the Christian Bible was God-inspired. But it is still widely believed that Allah's prophet, Muhammad, authored the words.
http://www.charismanews.com/world/51763-ancient-quran-discovery-suggests-muhammad-did-not-pen-islamic-scripture