₦airaland Forum

Truth be known. Neither Debosky, nor Enigma, nor myself are "anti-tithing".

We preach the tithe as it is written in the Word of God.

What we are "anti" is "anti-false doctrine" and "anti-false prophets".

Bidam: I guess this is the mysterious russel kelly our anti-tithers get their rebuttal from instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to study to bible.

The carnal way this guy inteprete scriptures is amazing.He already has a phd in antithing theology

The Holy Spirit showed me the truth about the tithe long before I even heard the name Russell Kelly.

And you want to know how He revealed the truth to me? Why, in the Word of God. I have been preaching the truth about the tithe since the late 80's... long before I even got my first computer.

If one is diligent about his study of the Word, one can easily see that there is no command for a monetary tithe anywhere in the Word of God.

Enigma: Just a note to say that those who claim that The Didache refers to "tithing" are being quite misleading. What they are relying on are not direct references to tithes but statements in relation to "first fruits" and "commandment"; those statements and the way they are couched, especially when the reference to commandment is said in the same breath as indicating free choice on the part of the giver, raise issues of interpretation. The Didache itself does not mention "tithes"!

Here are two translations of The Didache; let us see who will be the first to find the word "tithe" in it!

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Didache-text.html

http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html


Meanwhile, those interested may find a rebuttal to the RC Sproul essay by Russell Kelly (incidental a registered member of Nairaland) here http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id172.html

Enigma, Enigma, Enigma. Haven't you paid attention to Olaadegbu at all? You aren't going to find "tithes" when you read the words written in the Didache. You've got to read BETWEEN the lines.

(I think you need special glasses to read between the lines though. I am sure if you ask nicely, Olaadegbu will be happy to let you use his.

ROFL

OLAADEGBU: Read Genesis 14:20-24 to find out that Abram rejected the spoils of war. He however gave tithe of all his possession and a tithe is 10% of all his increase as he gave credit to God for the victory.

Abram did not give 10% of his possessions to Melchizedek. You are teaching contrary the Word of God. Abram went out with trained servants with the intent of going to war against those who had captured his nephew Lot. Sorry Olaadegbu, but people going into battle do not carry their riches with them into battle. They do not carry them for good reason... if they lose the battle, they lose the riches. Abram was returning from the battle when he met Melchizedek. He had not gone home yet. He didn't have his possessions with him.

But you will gladly approve of books and links that agree with your preconceived ideas, no?

At leat debosky is reading and accepting truths. You, on the other hand are teaching and embracing that which is in opposition to the truth.

Goshen360: So, up till now, Image123 cannot produce ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that early Christians gave tithe?

SMH

You will be waiting for eternity and Image123 will still not produce that Scripture, Bro.

Image123: Christ was also laughed to scorn
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

There is no Scripture whatsoever that says "early Christians"tithed.

We do have Scripture that reveals Jews were still tithing four years prior to the destruction of the Temple by Titus and his invading army.

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

I dunno, maybe this is the "early Christians" that he is referring to? But Scripture does not say they were Christian at all. Even if they were, it really doesn't support the monetary tithe Ola and his friends are preaching. The command that Hebrews 7:5 is referring to is a tithe of agricultural nature, not monetary.

There is no Biblical support for a monetary tithe. It is a commandment of men.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Micah 3:8-12 But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin. Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity. They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity. [b]The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us. [/b]Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

Those who preach for hire (taking money from those they preach to) work not for the Lord, but for their own bellies.

Image123: i see that post caused quite a stir. The point is that the Bible NEVER condemned tithes, the Holy Ghost did not forget. And some early christians gave tithe. Let this saying sink into you.

Which early Christians "gave tithe"? and what were the contents of the tithe they "gave"?

Candour: Thanks my bro. I'll do that. Though if a Christian is honest, he should know that since none of the apostles were levites, they WOULD NEVER have collected tithes. If that is the case, then where did the tithing example start? This alone should make a sincere seeker ask questions.

But their gross dishonesty will not allow them think beyond the potential gain.

God bless you jare

It is true that we shouldn't need material outside of the Word of God to prove the monetary tithe is not of doctrine. But I look at the books as "supplemental" resources. History speaks volumes. It reveals that tithing was not taught in the Christian Church until after 585 A.D., when at the Council of Macon, it was written into Church bylaws first.

The fact that the Church never taught its members to tithe for more than 450 years after Christ should be ample proof for any honest believer.

Candour: Olaadegbu shown to be a liar once again. I doubt he's of DLBC. You can accuse DLBC of a lot of things, but not filthy lucre. The way he peddles outright lies to justify the tithe is indicative that he's a major beneficiary.

Thank God for Mark Miwerds and DrummaBoy who have literature that debunk all his spurious claims.

Thank you, Candour.

You too, can have much of this literature. Much of this is uploaded to an internet library. Go to archive.org and do searches for the words "tithe", "tithes", and "tithing." There are writings from the 17th and 18th Centuries that are quite revealing and educational.

DrummaBoy: Russell Kelly offered a sound rebuttal to that R C Sproul's article OLAADEGBU loves to bandy around on this forum.

Apart from the fact that there are over 500 books discarded as not inspired by the fathers compiling the scripture books, Dadache is one of them. When I have access to a better system, I will upload Dr Kelly rebuttal of Sproul's book of Dadache which is the only record they have that Christians tithed and not scriptures.

Here ya go, DrummaBoy...
[url]http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id172.html [/url]
Sproul: One of the earliest (turn of the second century) extrabiblical documents that survives to this day is the book of the Didache. The Didache gives practical instruction for Christian living. In the Didache, the principle of the giving of the first fruits or the tithe is mentioned as a basic responsibility for every Christian.



Kelly: Firstfruits, yes. Tithes, never. It is amazing that Sproul omitted the names of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexander and Tertullian who opposed tithing. Paragraph XI says "if he (the evangelist) asks for money he is a false prophet. Paragraph XII says that evangelists who want to stay must get a job. Paragraph XIII says to give first-fruits to the prophet or to the poor. It is shameful to ignore Paragraphs XI and XII.

DrummaBoy: Thank you Mark.

You are welcome, DrummaBoy. God bless.

OLAADEGBU: A tithe is giving 10% of your income and if you are a child of Abraham you will follow in his steps. Do your research on the Didache and you will discover that it shows that tithing is a spiritual principle which is a basic responsibility of every Christian.

I have just finished reading the Didache, and you are wrong, just as R.C. Sproul was wrong. The Didache does not even mention tithes in its contents.

It does, however, mention firstfruits. Firstfruits and tithes were not the same thing. The Bible makes that abundantly clear. Notice:

Nehemiah 10:37-38 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

The children of Israel took the firstfruits into the storehouse chambers, but they did not take the tithes into the storehouse chambers. instead, they took the tithes to the Levites, who, in turn, took a tithe of the tithe to the Temple storehouse chambers.

The Bible clearly proves that tithes and firstfruits are not the same.

Getting back to the Didache that you want to rely on, it only mentions firstfruits on five occasions. But it speaks of more than firstfruits, it speaks of false prophets.

Were you aware that the Didache states that when Apostles came to a town, they could not stay more than a day? If they did, they were considered to be false prophets. Wow! Only a day? And here the Apostle Paul stayed in Ephesus for how long?

The Didache accuses the Apostle Paul of being a false prophet!

This would mean also, that if you held a Revival at your Church and the preacher you invited to preach was there preaching every night for a week, by the rules of the Didache, that preacher is a false prophet as well.

Oh, the Didache also says that if the Prophet asks for money he is a false prophet.

Still want to rely on the writings of the "Didache"? a book that calls the Apostle sent by God a false prophet? See, Olaadegbu, where relying on extra-biblical material will land you? At odds with the very Word of God.

Stick to the Scripture and discard the Didache, it is foolishness.

shdemidemi: Sounds weird but it's true that many use God as another form of idol. We use the church as a problem solving or solution getting place. Instead of getting close to God by studying and hearing His word and hope He fixes us, we try to go to him for what is in there for us. There are no more Daniel's in the body of Christ, no more shedrack meshack and abednego.

All we have are people who can't wait on God to do what He wants to do when he wants to do it if he wants to do it hence we fall victim to charlatans who use godliness as a source of gain. The bible says about such teachers-
2 Tim 3
13 But evil men(false teachers) and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.




If the reason why a Christian give tithe or offering or what have you is to invoke God to give him back his money, that is only a selfish driven practice.

Apostle Paul made it clear to Timothy

2 Tim 3

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Many amongst us want the glory but we can't endure the sufferings. More like saying a pregnant woman wants the baby but she does not want to go through the pain of child birth. I believe God can make us rich but I don't subscribe to going to him or paying tithe for riches rather I believe we should go to him and give cheerfully irrespective of whether we get or not.

So true, shdemidemi.
Sadly, so many today are lured in by the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life... never realizing that those things are of the world and not of God.

Many pastors take over Churches, wanting to lord their position over the flock, with the intent of gain and power. Those pastors will one day find they have no reward for such an evil heart.

Further writings from the turn of the 18th Century by John Gratton:

page 311

Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, speaking upon that passage of Abraham, (Gen. 14:23. who after he had gained the victory over the king of Sodom's enemies, and rescued Lot. "When the king of Sodom offered him part of the spoils, he would receive nothing but a few victuals. though, saith he, the Holy Teachers do war in the behalf of perishing mankind, yet they do not take any thing from the men of the world. Nor heap up unto themselves riches lest the world should say, We have made you rich. They only, saith he, ought to receive their sustenance from the hands of those whom they have converted to the faith. For it's Christ's command, that those that preach the Gospel should live thereby.

I found this an interesting paragraph. Obviously at that time pastors (Bishops) were not paid salaries, nor did they expect salaries. They could receive gifts from time to tithe from those that they converted to the faith, but from no one else lest the Gospel be hindered.

debosky: I don't say this to be antagonistic, but I would appreciate it if you could share with us the evidence to support this.

He may be talking of the diaspora... the scattered Jews.

The author of Hebrews said that the children of Levi have a command to take tithes of their brethren. Now, we know that "brethren" there is speaking of the children of Israel, and that "children of Levi" is speaking of Levites.

But for some strange reason, these guys don't see that. Maybe it is because they don't want to see it. That verse clearly says the Levites were receiving tithes. Not pastor so-and-so, born to a different tribe than Levi.

I would say humor them and agree with them, but it would be sin to do so. They clearly are in err. Teaching a doctrine that can be found nowhere in the New Testament, nor in the Mosaic Law.

Candour: And who collected tithes from them? Jesus or the Apostles?

Story story......keep spinning your stories bro, I'm all ears

Gentile Pastors could not have received tithes. Only Levites could receive the tithes.

And then, the Levites were to take the tithe of the tithe to the storehouse. It was not the original tither that tithed to the storehouse, but the Levites. The Levites received the tithe, and in turn, the Levite would take a tithe of the tithe to the storehouse.

Of course, that tithe was only of crops and livestock. But what do deceitful pastors care about what God said His Holy tithe consisted of? Right?

Drumma,

Here is the transcribed pages. I also went farther in the book and copied some very relevant pages to this topic. Read:

From Albert S. Vail’s book, “Stewardship Among Baptist’s”; ©1913, p. 53:

But the chief thing to be said is that they left it out because they did not regard it as having any place in the Christian system. They stood in their liberty of the Gospel and aside from the Law. It would not be true to say that all Baptists ever have been thoroughly consistent in their understanding of their liberty in relation to Old Testament Law; but they have approximated it, and they were clear enough all along the line in earlier times to enable them to ignore the whole tithing scheme as applicable to themselves.

John Gratton’s “Journal of Life”; ©1720, pp. 291-292:
The Clergy-Man’s Pretense of Divine Rights to Tithes, Examined and Refuted.

In my first letter, I told thee, No Law of God can be produc’d for such work under the Gospel Dispensation (viz. for taking of Tithes.) This thou never disproved’st yet, nor produced’st any Law of God for it.

skip to page 306:

The Bishop of Souls, though He was Lord of all, yet He made Himself of no Reputation. And laid no Claim to the Possessions of this world. Saying, “The Foxes have Holes, the Birds of the Air have Nests, but the Son of Man hath not whereon to lay His Head. He laid no Claim to Tithes, nor Offerings, nor Oblations where He travelled in the work of His Ministry. Though He laboured for the Conversion of Souls in divers Places, as the true Bishop thereof. Yet He laid no claim to them, as His Diocess, nor looked for Gifts or Rewards from any Place. But as He was sent of the Father, and was the Free Gift of Righteousness, He ministered freely. And likewise, when He sent out His Disciples, to teach all Nations, and Disciple them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Matt. 28:19, He said. As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. John 20:21. And again, Freely you have received, Freely give. Take with you neither bag, nor scrip, nor two Coats, nor money in your purses. But into what House or City you enter, enquire who therein is worthy? And there abide, til you go thence. And what is set before you, eat. For the Labourer is worthy of his Meat. Matt. 10:7-11. Luke 10:7. What, it seems, they must, if they got Food and Raiment, be content therewith! Yea, they said at their return, They lacked not any thing. These preached the Gospel freely. The New and Living Way. The Word of the Kingdom, and turned people to Christ. Who opened their hearts to Minister to their necessities in the work of the Gospel. These desired no Stipend, Salary, Augmentation, or Settled Maintenance. But were content with what was ministered unto them. Only by them who Believed and partook of their Spiritual things.

307:

They gave not over preaching the Gospel, because they had no settled Maintenance, like as I have known some, in my time, who manifested themselves to minister for Hire and filthy Lucre. So were out of the Apostles Doctrine and Practice, who sometimes denied what was freely offered them, lest they should make the Gospel chargeable and their Work of no effect. But no tithes were spoken of at all by them, that we read of. Nor commanded or commended either to Jew or Gentile, who believed, in the Age of the Apostles. That we find either in Holy Scripture, or any other Ancient Records. So thus far, primitive Christianity was kept up.
Remember I tell thee, in this time many were converted to the Faith. And such was the Liberality and Bounty to the Evangelical Ministry, that it exceeded the Tenth, and their Love and Unity was great. And some offered all they had. And sold Houses and Land. And brought the price, and laid it at the Apostle’s feet. Acts 4:34. And it was distributed to every man as he had need. Mark, the Preachers did not engross it to themselves, but every man, according as he had need of Food and Raiment, received, with which they were content. So the Church lived freely of what came freely, for the Service of it. And thus it was at Jerusalem in those Days.
So likewise the Church, gathered by Mark at Alexandria in Egypt, followed the same Practice

skip to page 308:

In the next ages, Monthly Offerings were freely made, and given to the Saints, by devout and able Christians. And the Overseers, appointed by the Church, were to receive them, and carefully and charitably dispose of them according to the Necessity of the Saints. Concil. Gangr. Can.66.
As a maintenance for the Brethren in their travels for the Service of God, Feeding, Cloathing, and Burying their poor Brethren. Relieving of Widows and Orphans, and persons condemned to Labour in Metal-Mines, or to Prisons, or Banishment into Isles by the Heathen Emperors.
And these freewill offerings were never exacted. Witness Tertullian, that lived about two hundred years after Christ, whose words are these, ( Apol. C. 39.) “Every man gives a small Sum every month, or when he will. But it is, if he will, and be able, for no man is compelled. But he gives freely. See here, Gospel Maintenance bare-faced, that oppresses no man, nor over-burdens him. For there is enough in one hand or other to do all that’s needful, easily and cheerfully. But this suits not with them that seek High Things to themselves.
And this Way of Free Contribution continued until the Great Persecution of Dioclesian and Maximian, about the Year 305.
About this time some Lands were given to the Church, by them that believed. And the Revenue thereof was distributed, as other free Gifts were, by the Deacons, for the aforesaid uses. Selden’s History of Tithes, c.4. sect. 1.

Page 309:

Prosper also saith, “That a Minister, able to live of himself, ought not to desire any thing to be given unto him. And he that receiveth it, doth it not without great Sin. De Vit. Contemplat.

Drumma, it will take a little while, but I will type them out

I also have Selden's "A Historie of Tithes" which was written in the 1600's. An excellent read!

Who needs Wikipedia?

https://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/63/75/a6/6375a62b5a6adf7e5bdce2e1b88a2c4d.jpg

Read how the clergy of the Catholic institution is shown why they are not authorized to receive tithes. Again, this was written in 1703 by a Baptist Minister.

A page from a book written in 1703.

https://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/ad/65/d6/ad65d6a9e350d65a9c29f0e996571e0b.jpg

Note it reveals that tithing is a pretense. I will post the next page of this book also to show Gratton's refutation.

Here is a page from a book in my possession that was written in 1913...

https://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/49/9e/f9/499ef9051ca340b4dcc5d3dd47903f10.jpg "Stewardship Among Baptists" by Albert S. Vail1913 p. 53

I have in my collection, a book written in 1703 by John William Gratton called "A Treatise on Tithes."

On page 326, Mr. Gratton attests that the tithe doctrine was invented by the Catholic church and not by God.

[b]Here is an excerpt from a rebuke written to the Catholic Church in 1648 A.D. I find it interesting.

…And alas! The greatest work you do, is to picked and penned sermons a week (and then over and over) and rail against the Sectaries, and oh! Such an one is cried up as a very rare, zealous, good Churchman, and made the only Oracle, and this is the brave watching over the flock: Is this going from house to house? Is this meeting to comfort and exhort each other? Was this all the Apostles and Disciples of Christ did, to be penned up in a closet 3 or 4 days a week, or as some to lie in the Ale house so long? Oh sad age! When the leaders of the people shall cause them to err, see what the Lord saith of such false prophets, Jeremiah 23: 13-17, 22-23, 26-28, 30-32. And certainly, should we see the downfall of your means, we should soon behold the downfall of your ministry; that being the grand prop thereof, and therefore rather then you will trust God for your maintenance, you will take (nay, force) the legal maintenance of tithes from the people, which was only given to the priests under the Law for their service, the reason why it was given, was, because they had no inheritance among their Brethren, they being one of the ten tribes, which they took only of their Brethren, and that not by compulsion: but there is no equality that our priests should have it, First, because they are not a hundred part of the people, Secondly, because they have temporal inheritance among their Brethren, those priests had but the tenth of the increase, ours of poor men’s labours, the priests under the law were not so covetous as ours, for they gave one tenth to the Lord, ate one part with those that paid them, and the rest was laid up for the poor and strangers, and therefore were to have the storehouses for that purpose, but ours get all to themselves and instead of bringing into the storehouses for the poor and strangers, they cry out to bring into their storehouses, and for that purpose abuse that place in Malachi 3:10 which was lawful then but not now. Christ having put an end to the priesthood, hath also changed the Law, Hebrews 7, which was tithes, Therefore to take tithes under the Gospel, there being not the least syllable for it (the Apostles never owning it) is abominable heresy (though not mentioned in the book of Heresies) and a denying Christ come in the flesh. And certainly, were you not willfully blind you might see God blasting them, for it is remarkable that scarce any of your posterity comes to any thing, but are generally miserable.—“The Gainsayer Convinced”, p. 6, written in 1648

[/b]

By this document, we see that the protestant Church did not teach tithing in the seventeenth century. A sharp rebuke was given to the Catholic institution for their requiring tithes of the masses.

OLAADEGBU: Read Ezekiel 3:17-18 and fulfil your responsibility.

What does Ezekiel 3:17-18 have to do with the unScriptural monetary tithe doctrine?

OLAADEGBU: (Matthew 5:22).

These solemn words of our Lord Jesus Christ would not mean anything to you except you are a real child of God and thus go into deep contrition and repentance. If you are none of His you are free to go quoting Scriptures to your own destruction.

The Word of God identifies those who try to add rules to the Word of God as being fools. Throughout the Scriptures, we see many who are identified as acting "foolish" or saying "foolish" things. Look it up.

My pointing out the fact that your "monetary tithe" doctrine and your "read between the lines" doctrine are indeed "foolish" is in perfect agreement with the Word of God. You may reject it, but hopefully, others will read my posts, compare them with the Word of God, and know my words are true while yours are not.

OLAADEGBU: Read Matthew 5:22 to understand your predicament.

Proverbs 10:14 (KJV)
Wise [men] lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish [is] near destruction.

Proverbs 15:7 (KJV)
The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish [doeth] not so.

Jeremiah 5:21 (KJV)
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

OLAADEGBU: You are obviously too wise to understand the word of God.

(1 Cor 1:19).

you are obviously too foolish to understand it.

debosky: No - it is this 'read between the lines' methodology that has led you to your God will take the tithes from you comments, which you are unable to substantiate.

If you cannot provide a biblical basis for your statement, please say so. Making a baseless claim is indicative of a lack of integrity.

He can't read what is in the Word of God. He has to insert his own opinions in "between the lines" in order for his "God will take it from you" doctrine.

I feel sorry for all that fall for that doctrine. They are in bondage to man and not walking in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free.

OLAADEGBU: Study the following references to see that tithing is the evidence of obedience and appreciation of God's blessings (Gen.14:20; Prov.3:9-10; Deut.8:10-20; Heb 7:6-10; 1 Tim 5:17-18; 1 Cor 9:7-14

the only one of those passages that has to do with tithing is the Hebrews one. You really shouldn't try to deceive me as you do. I am too wise in the Word.

Scripture does not say Abram tithed in appreciation. You are adding your supposition to the Word.

Enigma: Actually, although the poster did have a thing with usernames, I think that post was made out of a genuine realisation/acceptance of some of the points of those challenging the teaching of tithing. That post did me a bit of a favour because I had seen that information on the Web much earlier and "then it was no more". So, I was very pleased when it was unearthed!.

For the benefit of posters here not following the link, here is a taster of the info from the post.

(Taken from websites of RCCG SA and RCCG Netherlands)

(all emphases added --- not original)

RCCG SA II Region is wrong. They give references, but not one of those references say what they claim.

People need to be warned of such pastors. Wolves in sheep's clothing... Fleecing the flock.