₦airaland Forum

Jo,

Since the bible says after rapture we shall forever be with the lord, most christians ignorantly claim we shall be in heaven forever. I agree with you that they are wrong . We shall not be in heaven forever but only for seven years.
but need to recognise that the scripture here only said ever be with the lord but didnt mention the place. either in heaven or earth , because after rapture,the church will no longer be separated from Christ, wherever he is we shall be, Seven years in heaven we shall be, a thousand years on earth, we shall be, On the new earth forever also we shall be. Since Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth.

Lets treat the 7years etc. Can you pull out the bible quote?

Rev. 8:10
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;


This is a spiritual depiction. It shows that there will be a period where the rivers and waters will be poisoned as part of the tribulations. But notice that in all of these, the throne of God and the Lamb are already set up on earth during these events.

Finally:

1 Thes. 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The words "caught up", should not be taken literally, no. Notice that it was used again in Rev 12: 5

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne


It means being in one spiritual accord with God.

Avoid reading your own meaning to scriptures. If the bible says we shall meet him in the air , dont say it is earth.
Of course we will live on earth forever, but you must understand that after rapture, we will be in heaven for a period of 7years while the nation of Israel and those on the earth go through the tribulation under the regime of the antichrist.At the end of the 7 years We will come down with christ to fight for israel when they finally acknowledge him as king in the battle of armageddon. Satan will then be arrested and bound for a thousand years. This is called the milleniial reign. We will reign with christ over nations on earth for a thousand years. Then after that satan will be released from the bottomess pit for a season. he will go and decieve many again. This will lead to the final battle between good and evil ,the battle of Gog and Magog. Evil will finally be defeated. Then there will be the white throne judgement. The wicked will be cast to lake of fire. death and hell will be cast to lake of fire also.

It is after all this that God will make a new earth where we will live forever, God himself will come down to the new earth to stay forever. This old heaven and earth will pass away.

Sir, I m not. All I am saying is that the air, does not mean the sky or the clouds. Please read it very well. The verse says we shall be with him in the air, forever. Am saying that the air is the earth. You have the air on earth. That is why we shall be together with him. Is there no air where you are? So who is the one reading meanings to scripture? You or I? Judge. The lost garden of eden would then have been fully rstored. The whole point of christ coming was to bring back the kingdom of God back to earth - a cause he preached and had to die for.

All this talk about rapture etc are false doctrines or product of misunderstood scripture.

The 1000 years has already been fulfilled. Christ ruled in the heavens with the righteous dead for about 1000 years. Read your Rev with understanding.

[b]All the time God took people, he took them alive bodily. beginning with Enoch , Elijah, There is debate on Moses because of his missing body, Jesu also was taken up bodily.
The old saints that went to heaven with Jesus went bodily too. Graves had to open for them. A spirit does not need grave or door to open.

Matthew 27:52-53
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Paul also talked about how he went to heaven bodily. Though this had debates and controversy.

2 Cor. 12:2-4
    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

God always take people bodily, The next event is the rapture , we shall go bodily too.

1 Thes. 4:17
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heaven is a place in God, beyond human calculation. The bible talked about three classes of heaven.
I know people generaly point upwards to heaven  but we know the earth is spherical and the upward poiting dont make spiritual sence.  If its a planet somewhere I dont know.But all I know is that heaven is above this realm of life. .[/b]

Interesting references but misunderstood.

The fact that different people were taken up bodily does not mean that when received in the cloud, the earthly body is still with them to heaven. There is no physical place called heaven in the sky. Heaven is a spiritual plane for spiritual existence. If they went up with physical bodies, it must have been shed for spiritual body before entering heaven. The physical body is suitable for earthly sojorn. Read Genesis 1, you will agree that God made man from the dust of the earth. The only heavenly aspect of our being is the spirit, which one cannnot see with the naked eye.

Now I wonder how you can in one breath say:

The old saints that went to heaven with Jesus went bodily too. Graves had to open for them. A spirit does not need grave or door to open.
only to quote the actual bible verse which did not say that those who resurrected physically went to heaven. The bible said they appeared unto many.They were spirit beings with spiritual bodies. The bible did not tell us how they disappeared.


Matthew 27:52-53
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

God always take people bodily, The next event is the rapture , we shall go bodily too.

1 Thes. 4:17
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The rapture , though a popular concept for christians is not bibilical. It is a misreading of the scripture.  Reference of clouds throughout scripture is used to depict the glory of God. It does not mean  that he will come from the sky. Caught up together in the clouds is to be in one spiritual accord with Christ. How do you get caught up with him? It is by practising his injuctions; Love, faith, all good virtues.Not only professing them but practising them.

Where is the air? I think the air is the earth, not the hades, which is below the earth. That is why it concludes by saying that "so shall we be with the Lord ". In other words we will be with the Lord forever on earth.

Think about it carefully. God created you on earth. Will he in his 2nd coming take you to the sky? What's the point in him coming to the earth plane? What is the point of isaiah 9: 6 and Rev 12:5? Again the beatitudes in mathew already spells out the fate of the good guys- They will rule and reign with him on Earth!

Jesus needed to ask if they will receive it because ,they didnt beleive in Jesus as messiah, becasue they were still waiting for Elijah, So Jesus had to tell them Elijah has come already, .The statement was to confirm that the messiah has come since "elijah" has already come

Please read mathew 17; 10 -12 and explain that in view of your preference for the term annointing rather than spirit

I still want to know where you got the impression that Elijah entered heaven with his body. Or let me ask, where is heaven?

Jesus needed to ask if they will receive it because ,they didnt beleive in Jesus as messiah, becasue they were still waiting for Elijah, So Jesus had to tell them Elijah has come already, .The statement was to confirm that the messiah has come since "elijah" has already come

Please read mathew 17; 10 -12 and explain that in view of your preference for the term annointing rather than spirit

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".



How can he remember, when the end of time has not reached? The guy who knew was Christ who comfirmed to them but added "if you will receive it,

Obviosly you have also disbelieved Him!

Coming in the spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the human spirit. There are different kinds of usage .
Spirit of sportsmanship, spirit of a warrior.etc. Spirit couldt be used for attitude,character. and also the invisible inner man .You dont just get carried away by the word spirit. The spirit of a man becomes free  from the body at death. Elijah did not die, He is still alive in his old body. He couldnt have left his body in heaven and pick another body in Mary, then after they beheaded him ,he picked up another body,
The spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the inner self but the anointing , which is the operation of God's power in his life. It is talking about the kind of grace upon Elijah, it represents an office and not personality. If you hear a deeper life pastor preach ,he doesnt need introduction. because of the spirit or the grace upon that ministry,

Philip. 1:7 , "ye all are partakers of my grace".

Romans 8:9
   ,  Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe  John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".


Joagbaje,

I still do not see how the use of spirit should be interpreted. Please explain better.

So you are sure that Elijah is still alive in his old body? Any bibilical reference?

So because he went up, he entered heaven with his body? Is that scriptural or a figment of your imagination?

What  is annointing? Please define?

Coming in the spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the human spirit. There are different kinds of usage .
Spirit of sportsmanship, spirit of a warrior.etc. Spirit couldt be used for attitude,character. and also the invisible inner man .You dont just get carried away by the word spirit. The spirit of a man becomes free from the body at death. Elijah did not die, He is still alive in his old body. He couldnt have left his body in heaven and pick another body in Mary, then after they beheaded him ,he picked up another body,
The spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the inner self but the anointing , which is the operation of God's power in his life. It is talking about the kind of grace upon Elijah, it represents an office and not personality. If you hear a deeper life pastor preach ,he doesnt need introduction. because of the spirit or the grace upon that ministry,

Philip. 1:7 , "ye all are partakers of my grace".

Romans 8:9
, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".


Joagbaje,

I still do not see how the use of spirit should be interpreted. Please explain better.

So you are sure that Elijah is still alive in his old body? Any bibilical reference?

So because he went up, he entered heaven with his body? Is that scriptural or a figment of your imagination?

What the hell is annointing?Please define?

Joagbaje,

I have not defined reincarnation the way you stated. Anyone that defines reincarnation that way is ignorant,simple. Reincarnation means a spirit that once existed on a plane coming back to that plane after his former existence. There are many means of exist froma plane: death, ascension, translation and disappearance. Choose your method,but in each case, the spirit ceases to exist in that plane. With respect to the earth plane, the spirit comes back through the womb of a woman, a channel created by God for all spirits.

You contradict yourself when you affirm the ff verse:

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


As man you are made up of blood,water and spirit. If John is born in the spirit of Elijah, it simply means that Elijah has re-incarnated into the world as John the baptist. This is why Jesus confirmed to the disciples that Elijah had come as John the baptist after the transfiguration.

How simple can this concept get,and yet how difficult it is for people to comprehend? No wonder Christ said "ïf you can accept it, "

* raised = resurrect

come = reincarnate

Joagbaje,

Read the account of the transfiguration and what the disciples said to christ after they saw the vision. christ himself comfirmed that Elija had come as John the baptist.

Read also the angel telling his Father that he will come in the spirit of Elija. What else ? read the thread!

Viaro,

Let me sumarize.

You disbelieve the scripture in Isaiah 9:6 as foretelling the birth of Christ in his 2nd coming? You also dis-believe the revelation of John in Rev 12:5 about a child born to rule?

There is a marked difference between that and Isaiah 7:14, the virgin birth prediction. Firstly, Jesus did not rule in his 1st coming. He died a shameful death for our sins. His rulership was for his 2nd appearance, which the latter text in Isaiah addresses and confirmed in the Revelation. Because he will be born or he will re-incarnate, he also confirms in the same Revelation that he will come with a new name. Rev 3:12. If he will not be born why come with a new name? Why not answer the former name - Jesus? Afterall if we see a blonde bearded man in the sky we will all know he is the one! What of his often repeated statements that he will come like a thief in the night? How does a thief come in the night? Will he ring a bell for the residents to know he is coming? Na wao! This one pass me! Think, my man, think!

The truth is constant and the Bible did not contradict itself. Our interpretation of the Bible leads to contradiction. He has accomplished the first assignment and in his second coming will take on a greater role - that of rulership and kingship over the whole world. I hope you now see the differences in the Isaiah texts mentioned?


Now I do believe in resurrection, but not in the way you imagine it. I have said that resurrection happens after death, allowing the spirit to be available for reincarnation with a new body (as deemed fit by God). That was the explanation Paul offered to his audience when they wanted to know what body one is raised (reincarnates) with.

1 cor 15:35 -37

35 But some man will say, How are the dead [b]raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:[/b]

We do not control the body we reincarnate with.

I think you also need help (no pun intended) with Thess and Daniel. IN thesss I have decided to start from 15, to give a background. Again Paul was trying to encourae them in the faith, to help their steadfastness.

1 Thes. 4:16

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



These are highly spiritual verses that if you are not careful you could misinterprete them. Let us follow your own interpretation to show the shallowness.
16. Christ will come down with a big shout and trumpet and the dead in Christ will ressurrect first. The the living faithful shall rise to the sky to meet the Lord in the sky and be with the Lord forever in the sky.

Hmmmm. Take a deep breath. start from vs 17. Caught up to be with the Lord in the air and so shall we be with the Lord. Now where is the air. Where does it start, where does it end? Air, air, air. I know that I walk on air, I live inside the air right now. Everything above ground is the air. Below ground is the Deep. Will be always be with the Lord forever in the sky? No sir. His kingdom will be on earth, which is where the air is. The air is the earth, my oga. The expression caught up is a spiritual one, meaning to be in one spiritual accord with Him.Similarly, the trump and shout are spiritual depictions of what will happen. Why will someone who comes like a thief in the night start trumpeting and making noise for you to see him? it means we need to recheck our understandig of spiritual terms. The word rise means reincarnate. So the dead will reincarnate and be with Christ in his own kingdom, so the other elects existing will also be in one spiritual accord with them, on earth and so shall they be together with the lord forever- on earth!!

Daniel's prophecis.


Lets start with Dan 2:44

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever

Dan7:9
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion  is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

In the end of times, the kingdom of God will be set-up, which will overthrow the religion and kingdoms of men. Dan 2:44. That was again confirmed in the next vision when he saw God being ministered to by many people Dan 7:9. It was in his Father's kingdom that the Christ was enthroned Dan7:13.

Notice the son of man comes with clouds of heaven. This is not like he dropped from the sky. It was an affirmation of his heavenly glory.

Viaro,

I must thank you for keeping it clean so far. I hear your points but they are due to lack of understanding of the scripture.

Er, please don't even go there - I shall not imagine anything here but stick with what the Bible declares. What you have up there is a very, very poor attempt at apagogic logic.

There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that helps what you are saying here, because the angels clearly indicated He will yet return in the same manner. Hear them in Acts 1:11 - "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". Of course, many other references show that He shall come back in the same manner - from heaven:

Daniel 7:13 - 'I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him'

Matthew 24:30 - '. . and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory'

Mark 13:26 - 'And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory' (see also Luke 21:27)

1 Thes. 4:16 - 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'

Revelation 1:7 - 'Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen'.


All these and more show that He shall come back in that same manner that you denied - from heaven!


1. Its not apalogic. Its the only way to explain the scripture. People were looking towards heaven and angels appear, who have better info on Christ's 2nd coming and they querried their looking up in the sky. If they querried it, then it is logical to assume that it is not necessary to look at the sky. In your day to day existence have you not querried things when you disapprove of it? Reflect carefully on the word "why?'' .

2. What manner did they see him leaving? They saw him leaving as a being. He will come back as a being. That was why the scriptures recorded his birth in his 2nd advent Isaiah 9: 6, and Rev 12:5 or were those verses not dealing with the risen Christ? The Bible is consistent.

3. The presence of God in scripture has always been denoted by the use of the term cloud. Search even from the old testament. Coming in the clouds is coming in his heavenly glory. All eyes cannot see him if he comes from the sky. Will someone in London see him if he is in the sky over the States?

4. The end time story in mathew and mark is not well understood. Let me reproduce Mark 13: 26

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

let us do a verse by verse explanation

26. What is meant by the son of man coming in the clouds? Lets assume for a moment that you are right and he comes from the sky, then why does the end not come after his coming in the sky? Read down to the end. Does it mean that we will all be gathered to the sky and living in the clouds with Christ? How will we function? How will we work, eat etc - in the clouds? Haba! Have you forgotten the beatitudes? John 5:

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Have you also ignored our Lord's prayer, whch you recite everyday? ", Thy kingdom come, ". That was all Christ preached the coming of God's kingdom to earth. Afterall Adam was created on earth not in heaven efore the devil struck. How come with Jesus 2nd coming to restore things you believe you will live in the sky?

27. He will send his angels, This is the gathering of the elects to the earth. The resurrected will incarnate back to earth with different bodies. That was why he also said those who sacrificed for him will in the life to come benefit more than 100x. The life to come will definitely mean that they will be born into the world.

28-29. The two verses comfirm that after his coming in a cloud , the end is near but ot yet come. That is why you need to understand that the coming in the cloud is really a spiritual expression of his glory. This much is confirmed in the Revelation. We see the lamb releasing the seals and the terrible effects on the men of the world resulting in their scrambling to hide from he that sitteth on the throne. That throne is on the earth here.

Read luke 17 again. Note the bolded portions. The son of man will be revealed, consistent with a thief in the night.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Noah lived among them and was not recognized or listened to, until the flood came. Therefore the son of man, will live among men and will also not be listened to untill he reveals himself via the seals and judgement.

I'm sorry, but all of the above still have no bearing on the Biblical teaching of resurrection.

Let me help:
(a) Mary's mistaking Him for a gardener does not prove anything about incarnation or reincarnation.
(b) None of the verses teaches the 'too much energy' stuff - did His 'energy' deplete when He later asked Thomas to touch Him (John 20:27)?
(c) Reason they could not recognize Him immediately is given in Mark 16:12 (He appeared in "another form" and Luke 24:16 ('their eyes were holden that they should not know him'). This all does not lend any weight to proving anything about reincarnation or incarnation or de-incarnation, whether it was only 3 days or many centuries.
(d) He actually mixed with them - for a period of no less than forty days (Acts 1:3)
(e) Yes, 'their eyes were opened, and they knew him' (Luke 24:31) - and what does that prove about reincranation?

Well you clearly misunderstood me here. I was only trying to explain that Christ resurrected on earth with a different body, and to show that resurrection is necessasry for reincarnation

Eh, sorry - that is pantheism you're making out there, and the Bible does not teach any such ideas.

But the Bible wil not teach you everything. The Spirit should be the one to teach you. You are made up of water blood and spirit and it is from the spirit that we resemble God. Remember that 'God is a spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth'.

Wow-wow-wow. . hang on, mate! One thing at a time and don't jump guns.

(a) Where can you show that Adam 'resurrected' - what scriptures exactly say that very thing?
(b) Where does it say that Adam later reincarnated as Jesus Christ?

I don't think that it helps to make statements that you can't establish by clear references, so please sort these out.


I thought the refernce was clear. The first Adam was a living soul. The last Adam, means that Jesus was an incarnate of Adam, period. It is not rocket science. If you read the verses before, it tells you that death to one resulted in the other.

see? It did not say the "reincarnation of the dead" - don't confuse them, please.



Ressurection occurs only for the dead because that is the point of separation of the spirit from the flesh. after that (ressurection), the spirit can come (reincarnate) with another body. That was why Paul argued in 1 Cor 15: 9

9 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

And he went further to explain in 1 Cor 15:35

5 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body [/b]do they [b]come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body

Note the bolded. the issue of reincarnation was dealt with by Paul.

Viaro,

What can I say! You are a brave man! Welcome. I am a Christian, though disagree with (your) overbearing Pentecostal beliefs which are in error in many aspects of scripture. Let me leave it there for now.

I need to clear up a few points real quick, so that we do not get confused about ressurrection. When death occurs, the physical body which had hitherto trapped the spirit, dies, but the spirit is released which in effect means resurrection. Resurrection is misunderstood to mean the person coming back to earth in the same body, no. God has made one channel through which all creatures including himself come to inhabit the earth plane - the womb of a woman. It is after resurrection that incarnation can happen. When ressurection happens, we physically cannot see it as we cannot see the spirit. However Christ in his advent proved that resurrection happens.

Let us take the case of Jesus Christ. After his death, he ressurrected but not with the same body. This explains why

a) They thought he was the gardner.
b) He did not want them to touch him initially - too much spiritual energy.
c) They did not recognize him. How come you do not recognize a guy after 3 days of death? Lazarus was recognized. Think!
d) He did not mix with them anymore, but was appearing and disappearing at will. He was moreless operating on earth in a glorified body.
e) He was "recognized" only after their eyes were "opened", after "hearing his voice". That is, they were spiritually awakened to "see" that he was Christ.

Basically, Christ dieing was for him to prepare for his come back or re-incarnation or 2nd coming, choose your term. His resurrection physically was moreoless to prove the concept of resurrection. The instructive thing about it is that his resurrection did not happen with the physical body he had before, hence they could not recognize him.  He looked human, but was not the man they associated with before, even though he tried to put them at ease by eating with them and instructing them. It was no longer the same, there was a separation. He needed to leave, so he can come back again for another assignment of rulership.

One of the errors in modern christianity is to assume that he will drop from the sky.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

We were told in Isaiah 7:14

14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

That came to pass in the birth of Jesus Christ.

We were also told in Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


It seems to me that Jesus Christ did not rule in any throne in his first coming or incarnation. His second coming will be that of Kingship and Judgement. this is pretty straight foward.

We also saw that in Rev 12: 5, that his destined rule and kingship in his second coming was foretold.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


I guess you may say that he will come in from the clouds, but it means you did not quite understand the scriptures. Lets see
Acts 1:9

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



The key to understanding this passage is to imagine you escort a friend from Lagos and watch him board a vehicle to say Kano and another friend of his who is closer now taps you on the shoulder and says "why do you keep looking towards the direction?". You will realize that the operative key here is the question "why?". Once that was uttered, it means that it is not necessary to look for him from heaven. Simple. They go further to assure the disciples of the manner he will come. He left as a being, therefore he will come back as a being, hence the revelatios to John the divine in Rev 12;5.  This man had also foretold that he will come like a thief in the night. A thief always comes unannounced. It is only when he starts shooting that you realize that someone has entered your premises.

I will later address you on the main issue of Adam and Jesus plus other issues, gotta go.

Let us examine how Adam was formed.

Gen 2:7

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That breath was God transferring life force or spirit into the object to make him a living soul. That life force is the spirit, which is also God and is present in all creation. That is the way we resemble God. God is present in all his creations. Notice that Adam becoming a living soul was a direct encounter with God - his breath.

The spirit that formed Adam resurrected and later reincarnated as Jesus Christ. This was the same breath, the same life force. Is it any wonder that while Adam lived beyond 900+years, Jesus lived for just 33 years? Also Adam's ribs were used to create Eve, and in the reincarnation, Mary (Eve ) was used as a vessel to deliver Jesus the Christ. Don't take my word for it, just read 1 Cor 15:14

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Can we now see how the death of Adam gave rise to the birth of the quickening spirit?

Examine also christ statement

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit


Christ was simply talking about death leading to multiple reincarnations.

Also christ himself was to reincarnate as he states: John 14:1

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

He talked about his departure or translation as a necessary condition for his coming as the comforter

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Notice that christ was always talking about going, departure, coming etc, comfirming the process of incarnation, translation (de-incarnation), ressurection and birth (coming). God chooses the body to give the ressurrected spirit.

1 cor 15:35 -37

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Notice the italics used to highlight the perogative of God to incarnate the dead into what he chooses. Laters, but only informed discussions as there are many passengers in NL!

1st Cor 15:5


5 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Can we have reasoned discussions around this verse?

[t will be a mirxle for us to win

I wonder what the coach's strategy is? is it to sit it out and hope for the best?

I will give the tourney to Egypt or Algeria and I would not have said that 20 yrs ago. O how are the mighty fallen. The days of chukwu, odiye?, odegbami

To win, we need Martins and Nsofor.

Take out Etuhu, Yak.


Our winning will depend on these two heavy shooters!

Honestly Amodu is a dunce.

How many Dms is he playing? Kaita, Etuhu, and he has a good striker Obasi left to play midfield to accomodate the lazy yak.

Sack him, win or loose

Deepsight.

Am signing off.

This argument like many others confirm to any rational mind that modern christianity is on a false doctrine. For several days, you have tried to explain to two "christians" the very words of their redeemer - Christ. Not complicated texts, simple very easy to understand text. What do you get? More aimless references that sidestep the meaning of Christ's words. If you try more complicated verses, you can imagine the outcome.

Paul said that when he was a child, he did childish things, but now that he is a man, he put away childish things. The religion of God will certainly prevail over the religion of men. What is the religion of God? Love, humility, charity and all godly virtues. The religion of men includes all religions - Christianity, Islam, Hindu etc that only know in part. Christ, the redeemer did not found any religion. He was confortable in the synagougue and anywhere. He only preached the coming of the kingdom of God. No matter what we believe, if you cannot practice Love, righteousness and follow peace with all men, you do not know God yet, you are still striving and scratching.

Now that the argument is in the open, rational minds will read the thread and many will learn from it. Continuing the discussions may be meaningless. My hope is that God will open the eyes of his elects to see the truth.

It looks like you are  confused about the Transfiguration event? Well it was a vision that was revealed unto them.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Elijah did not physically meet with them. How could they have known Elijah? Were they born in his days or did they have his picture? It was a spiritual revelation.

The cycle you mentioned is in order. I hope you realise that judgement takes place mainly on earth as was the case with John the Baptist? How will the judgement happen if there is no reincarnation on earth? I guess  this is a bit too much for you to comprehend but I fully understand your opinions.

If the earth is not the centre of the multiverse, why the interest from God? Why did Christ not die in Mars or Jupiter? Do you not know that life exist in another dimension in these planets? Do you think God created them for fun?

Again you quote scripture with little understanding. Your quotes of Eccliastis does not and should not have been used to support your argument. It shows your level of understanding of  a simple scripture. The dead refferred to there is the physical body not the spirit. The physical body is forgotten but the spirit lives on forever.

Please what does everlasting life mean to you? Lets see your understanding. At least I offered mine, which supports re-incarnation.

When he entered the spirit realm, he was judged and he came down to earth to fulfill this judgement

. Hey how about your Birth=Death=Resurrection=Judgement  cycle? You seem to have forgotten it so soon or do I take it that you didn't quite understand yourself?

Christ's coming

    * Acts 1:11 - ". . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Q1: What manner did he go into heaven?
Q2: Why did the two angels question their looking up to heaven? If it was necessary to look up to heaven will the question arise?

Another case of error! Wrong understanding of the scripture!!

    * Mark 13:26 - 'And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory'


A1: This is a spiritual expression depicting the glory of the Son of Man. Clouds in most scripture refer to the presence of God.  If he is suspended in the sky like you think, why is the end not come after that event? Why does the end come much later ?  If he is in the sky over London, will someone in the States see him? Read the rest of the scripture. How does it relate to the scripture in Isaiah 9; and Rev 12;5? who are the they that would see this vision? Have you read the Revelation given to John? I doubt it.

There was no such angel who "prevented John from realising who he was" - that is a made up script from those who are seeking to force their own theatricals into the Biblical texts. Please show me plainly WHERE any angels so acted upon John the Baptist - JUST SHOW ME! Grin


I was explaining to you why John and indeed other mortals might not realize who they really are in their existence on earth. There is an angel of death and hades, they are scriptural. 1Cor 15:26



"3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

I don't understand how this proves your story about the ressurrected beings and their subsequent death. Nothing like that was mentioned. That was why I asked for the scripture. Perhaps someone else can help? I think you just did an interpolation of error. I hope you know that some gospels not included in the bible dwelt extensively on these stories?



irst off, 'regeneration' in that verse does not speak about 'reincarnation' - nada, zilch, nix. The regeneration in that verse points to the same thing that Peter   spoke about in Acts 3:21 - "the times of restitution of all things". In the regeneration, Jesus sits on the throne of His glory - and He Himself defined when that is going to be: "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Matthew 25:31). In other words, this is a future event and points to the time when all nations shall be gathered before Him for divine judgement. Happy now?



Is that correct? As soon as the son of man is seated in his throne all nations shall be gathered before his throne for judgement?  I know my bible tells me that even on his seat, he still has got work to do before it gets messy for sinners. Read 1 cor 15 :24

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death


Note the shaded, and note the last enemy to be destroyed. Go back to my John the Baptist explanation.

Mavenbox,

Still disagree. Regeneration, is regeneration no matter the versions you bring. They all point to a restarting or a renewal which is achieved in a rebirth or reincarnation. Christ himself alluded to this. Going by your reasoning, his followers will suddenly rise from their graves even when such graves do not exist anymore and then rule with Christ? Hmmm. The understanding is really wonderful, but it is in error!!

Perhaps we need to really understand several other things like how he would arrive in his 2nd coming? But I guess it may derail the thread, so perhaps if you have time, open a new thread on his 2nd coming, I'll gladly throw my hat in the ring.

Nuclear,

perhaps you didn't see my earlier definition of reincarnation. Death is one condition but not the only condition. Translation from a plane is enough. Elijah did not have to die like most mortals, but he ceased existing on the earth plane.

The bible expressly states that in the lst days Christ will be born. If you think otherwise please show me the contrary verse, because the bible dies not contradict itself only our understanding may be contradictory. So if he comes back and is born as a baby, it means he has come in another incarnation or he is reincarnated!!

Regeneration= Renewal = Continue from where they stopped??

Doesn't sound and look right.

The bible expressly tells you that the first man came as Adam an earthly soul, and the second man became a quickening spirit. Sounds simple enough. If that does not endorse incarnation then what doesit endorse - resurrection?? Whats the beef? Has nothing to do with brother analogy you just mentioned.

To understnd that Christ will come in another incarnation and be born into the world, read

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Read also rev 12: 5

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We see God respecting his natural process of incarnation or reincarnation through the womb of a woman, to rule in glory. The Rev 12:5 validates the Isaiah prophecy of 9:6

People forget that God in the spiritual world will look like an angel, while in the physical world he asumes the image of man as Christ did on earth. Now there is a difference between angels and man and also angels and god. Angels are ministering spirits. michael has his own horde of angels he controls on behalf of gaod and his christ. gabriel has his own horde. If these angels receive instruction from Michael, who did michael recive instruction from? Put it this way, a minister can reprsent a head of state but the minister is not the head of state. A nigerian general is not a head of state, just representing. the captain of the lord's army is not Christ by any stretch of imagination.

My thoughts:

The problem with Christianity is that we have not been taught by God. We have gained our insights from mere men. Take the issue of reincarnation. Christ talked about it almost everytime, yet we so called christ followers would relish twisting his statements to suit us, rather than believe his words. If after reading the transfiguration account you still doubt reincarnation, then I have one question for you. If Christ comes back, would that not be another incarnation? Would that not be a reincarnation? Anybody that does not believe reincarnation does not believe Christ and I seriously question his or her christianity. If we fail to grasp a simple concept like this, how can we go on to other more complex teachings?

Viaro and Mavenbox, please explain[b] regeneration
[/b] as used by Christ below.

Mathew 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

If he appears in a regeneration, that means he comes in another incarnation or a reincarnation. Note that your understanding of Israel should not be limited to the little area under dispute. Israel here is the world who have come under one umbrella with his shedding of his precious blood.


The bible states that the first man was Adam and the second man is Christ. I did not state this, its in your scriptures! The spirit that was used to create Adam, later manifested as Jesus in a later incarnation. Note that God was Adam's Father and mother, not man.

I understand that separation of body and spirit  means the person is dead, but that separation of spirit allows the spirit to return back to its initial or resure state, hence resurrection. We need to understand the natural process fully. At conception, the spirit enters the womb of a woman and becomes fully imprisoned in the body at birth. It lives inside the body till death.  Thus we have a cycle of birth- death- resurrection- birth. The bible tells us that every human will resurrect - some to everlasting life and some to everlasting condemnation. The spirits are immortal , even the ones in hell do not die.

What defines anything  is the spirit. The spirit determines who we are, if you like think about it as our spiritual DNA. The body is just a covering which can be shed. After death, the spirit is free to come to earth to take up another assignment. Some spirits come from different planets, but the earth is the centre of the multiverse. Do you think that the planets were created for fun?

I need to comment on a related topic - eternal life.

We think of it as living for ever in the world. I wonder how this can be. Will we work for ever? Will we have Children? Will our Children live forever too? Remember that birth and death go hand in hand. If there is no death, will there be birth? Has it not occurred to you that in the garden of Eden, God was the one that instigated Satan to tempt them so that they could multiply according to his pronouncement (Multiply and fill the earth)?  The thought of living for ever may be thrilling, but I think the concept is not totally correct. Let us reason from the scripture: John 11: 24 - Lazarus episode

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Clearly, everlasting life means the opportunity to reincarnate into the world ad infinitum. Note Christ's word: though he were dead, yet he lives, The old testament prophet Isaiah, captured it very well by saying that people will live to an old age, with little stress.

The main confusion for Christians is the statment from Paul which is not well understood: "It is appointed unto man to once to die and after that judgement, ". That statement has been given very wrong interpretation. Let me explain it by looking at Elijah and John the baptist.

Elijah killed about 33 prophets of Baal in the name of fighting for God before he translated. There was no evidence that he suffered any judgement while in the world as Elijah, but he had run foul of a natural law. When he entered the spirit realm, he was judged and he came down to earth to fulfill this judgement. That was why he was miserably murdered by Herod for nothing. When reading that portion did you not wonder why this tragedy should befall such a righteous man? Where was God? This guy was very righteous! The answer is that Herod was unwittingly carrying out God's judgement on Elijah who was now on earth as John the baptist. That was why when he waited in vain for Christ to save him, he doubted Christ and had to send his men to inquire if truly he was the Christ. He had to suffer his fate and pay for that exuberance as Elijah.  So Elijah after committing a crime came back to face the music of his crime.

What then is the end game? My two cents:

At the end, the angel of death who prevented John from realising who he was would be defeated and the curtain over our minds will be opened. Thus we can look at our fellow man and perhaps understand who he was in a previous incarnation something we cannot do now. That I think is the essence of the vision of the transfiguration, which signified that in the kingdom of god all the old prophets will be present, though they may not answer their names but we will know them!

Finally,

Those spirits that resurrected when the earth shook at Chrit's death. Am not aware that they lived and died normally. Could you quote the scripture for me again. If they did, then does that not puncture your argument that it is appointed unto man once to die and after that judgement? Help me here, sir!

Interesting thread, dealing with a hot topic. Deepsight is correct in this argument and I think people should listen.

Christ was a reincarnation of Adam

1Cor 15:45 - 49

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Christ incarnated as Melchisedeck

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. JOHN 8:56

Transfiguration experience

Mathew 17: 9-13

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Clearly this was a vision, that was why they recognized Elijah and Moses beccause they were in spirit. We can see that with their new spiritual understanding they sought clarification from the Lord about the Elijah that must came and Christ replied them very clearly. Now Christ is God and knows every man. John the bAptist was man and could not have known himself the way Christ would, so saying that John did not claim Elijah is nothing short of casual understanding of the scriptures. Whose testimony will you believe? Johnthe Baptist or Jesus the Christ? I know the one I will believe.  After the experience, the disciples understood that John was indeed Elijah.


What is Reincarnation and Ressurection?

Reincarnation is the process of a soul journeying back to a plane that it had sojourned in before. It could have left that plane as a result of death or other forms of translation. When Christ comes back, he will come back through a woman by the same process of incarnation or re-incarnate. If you understand that man is made of water spirit and blood, then this debate is really a no brainer. The spirit has few restrictions unlike the body. When death occurs, the spirit is liberated from the body. If God wants the spirit back to earth for a new asignment, it comes in during conception with a new body. Reincarnation is a final process, that includes ressurection and starts with death. Ressurection is the process of separating the spirit from the body.  The separated spirit can temporary exist in the earth in another place or enter into the spirit world properly.

Let us look at the scripture. 1 Corinth 15:42

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

In ressurection, you see a spiritual body, not a physical body. Thus we can appreciate the fact that the disciples did not recognize Christ after ressurection, because he was essentially a spirit being, not the same guy they knew. He could walk into closed doors and he no longer slept and moved with them. If you say ressurection, you describe part of the the process of reincarnation. After death, you have ressurection, then birth which is an incarnation or (reincarnation). When Christ died, remmber, that some dead peole were ressurrected. What manifested was the spirit of those people and they went about testifying about Christ, before they promptly disappeared.

Some people can ressurrect and live on earth without being born. We hear stories of people who are dead and now seen and living in other parts, even marrying. Once you ask them to take them to their village, they become reluctant and when you insist, they even disappear completely, leaving wife etc behind!

More later,  but Deepsight has the correct insight this time

Just wanna add a word of caution here.

God has already pre-planned your existence here on earth. If it were not so, then he is not all knowing. There is a rythm to your life or a season for things in your life. There is time to be born, a time to die etc. If you ask God according to his will, you should get. We often do not know his will, but the reality we see is often a guide to his will for us.

Yes, she had other children from the scriptures. John 7: 1-5

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. 2 Now the Jews’ feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. 4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him

The elements are angels of God. They carry out assignments from God. I do not hold brief for Pat, but perhaps he is describing the cause from the fact of what had happened to the little Island nation. If we agree that God knows everything, then surely he knew that the earthquake will occur? All said, the disaster is a time for all well meaning people to rally round Haiti and not to judge her.