₦airaland Forum

Perhaps this book more than anything else illustrates the futility of believing the entire bible as scripture. Some were written history, and poetry while others are a combination of history and scripture. This book, SOS describes a love tango in fine prose but has no bearing to the message of our Lord's death and the need to be imbdued with the Holy Spirit.

If you believe in creation by God, then it will not be too difficult to comprehend that the being who put the universe or multiverse in place must have a "science" beyond what we understand as science. He is on a different level. It amazes me to see us discuss UFOs and relate it to our believe in the Christ who in his advent was God living in human flesh. (John1:1-5). I should point out that everything we see physically, or everything we have imagined or will imagine must necessarily have existed in the spirit realm. A chariot of fire saw off Elijah to the heavens - the chariot was pulled by "horses"on a runway before it took off - cue Airplanes, rockets etc.

We marvel at the technology that enabled the Egyptians to build the pyramids or Noah to build his Ark. The bible tells us about a time when superior beings were released on earth in his attempt to get men to worship him, but they went the wrong way enthralled by the beauty of women. These angels or superior beings were sent to live as men and they had intrinsic superior knowledge and accomplished a lot on earth, within the limitations of their earthly enviroment.

If you think about all the planets that exist, why were they created? Did God create them for fun? Just to have empty masses moving in cyclic balance around the sun? I think not. Everything created was for a purpose, because the Creator is so precise, no scientist can ever match him. Think of your own body - every part is different but all serve unique functions. You cannot do without the other without getting imbalance. Many beings exist in those planets and the fact that we do not see them or perceive them does not mean that they do not exist. They exist in their own world which may not need oxygen or human senses. "In my Father's house there are many mansions, " (John 14:2). The world is just one such mansion. There are other mansions but God loves mankind more! They have their own technology, certainly more advanced, but they are all creations of God, only that they exist in another dimension. Are they superior to man? Yes, to the extent that they are spirit beings and can accomplish more than men, but remember that God had ab initio given man the authority on earth over everything. I must also add that the earth plane is the centre of the universe or multiverse. All spirits at one point in time live ( pass through ) on earth, before going to their various planets to exist as spirit beings or "UFos" etc.

In their spirit existence, they reverence God and understand the mysteries of the Godhead more than mankind. Does it take away anything from our christian belief, no. It only means that we strive to receive the understanding of the Holy Spirit, which is above all things, UFOs included.

Interesting topic. And I admire your candid post asking for answers. I think posters who reply to you should understand that they can only give their own perspective, not deride the perspective of others. My take is that

God = Spirit = (controller of all spirits)

Spirit = Angels

So you are almost all correct in your assertions.

If you are waiting for the man called Jesus, it shows you are not a true Christian and you do not believe in the word of God. He said you will see him no more. He also confirmed he will come with a new name. So if you wait for a man called Jesus the Christ, put yourself in prayer.

Life does not end with earthly existence. When death occurs, the spirit continues "living". That was why Christ went to the spirit world to preach to them to give them the opportunity to repent. God is afterall fair. We can only assume that since there is free will on earth, there should also be free will in the life beyond although God can hold any spirit in bondage for certain sins. It is a very deep topic for this forum but i hope you understand my drift,

Skyone,

Tudor and Mazj have a valid point. The Bible instructs Christians not to take drugs but to submit for prayer. That is the standard. If for some reason you do not meet this, then you have not started your journey to Christianity. You are a paper christian. That is, a Christian without the Holy Spirit, or an empty Christian. Can the holy spirit dwell in an impure house? Drugs dirty the abode of the holy spirit.  Paul was afflicted with a disease or a long time, but instead prayed to God.

Tudor, Mazj

There are Christians that would rather die than take drugs, they rely completely on God. I gues there are non-christians that would not take drugs too!


Olabowale,

Muslims also go for prayers from Christians, even your imans. Whats the big deal?

Mavenbox,

Nice to hear your views, but with ALL due respects, they appear to me to be inaccurate and in conflict with the teachings of God (Jesus).

Here are my rebuttals:


1) Understand that man is made up of Spirit, blood and water. The physical building can collapse, but the inhabitant moves to another house in another plane. A snail can shed his shell for a one, huh? The spirit component of man is the only part that cannot be seen, but it is real. It gives life. Note that when Christ woke Lazarus from the dead, it was Lazurus's spirit that returned and he rose from the dead.

2) After, each existence, the spirit gives account and faces judgement by God. Whether good or bad, it can be returned to earth, through birth to live another existence, during which it will face the judgement. Take for instance, a Man X , kills two people at a point in his life. Later in life, he falls sick and dies. God's natural law does not give him the right to take a life, so at death, spirit X faces judgement. On reicarnation, he could be a pastor with a large congregation.living a very righteous life. Perhaps married with a good family, with a name- Y. One night, two armed gang attack Y and he is killed. His relation cry their heart out, but the guy is gone. THe armed robbers, unwittingly carries out God's assignment. Mr. Y's death confirms the saying you quoted from the bible: , after death, judgement , Elijah murdered some 30(?) worshippers of Baal in the guise of fighting for God. On his return as John, his head was cut off.

You and I know of a nice man, very pure, and lowly called Jesus, who was judged unjustly and subsequently murdered for "equating" himself with God. God subsequently promised to promote him and give him a name that is above all names Phil 2: 6-9. In Rev 19, we are told he became the king of kings and lord of lords. He got his own judgement. Now the judgement can also be instantaenous while on earth, God determines these things not man. That explains why God has his own elects.


3) Mathew 8:11,

How would Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be in the Kingdom of God? By incarnation!

Mathew 12:42

How will the queen of the South that came to hear Solomon out be in the kingdom? reincarnation!!


4) 1 Cor 15: 35 

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Ressurrection means separation of the spirit from the body by death. The body is made up of water, blood and spirit. It is the spirit that gives life, so it is only the spirit that can ressurrect. After ressurection, the spirit can come back via birth to the world for a fresh assignment as directed by God.

5) I Cor15: 45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam was the first incarnation of Christ, after his death, the spirit reincarnated as the spirit of the son - as a quickening spirit



6) John 8:56.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Which day was Christ referring to? Of course you know that Abraham saw Melchisedesec and paid obesiance to him in joy. He recognized his priesthood, which is in all ways similar to christ's priesthood. Was that not an incarnation of God? Jesus says so, not me



7) Mathew 11: 13.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear let him hear.

Note that Christ knew the doctrine was not easy for them to comprehend and said ïf you will "receive it", know that John was the Elijah that was to come. Of course John did not understand that he was Elijah. It took God to reveal the truth, which is not always accepted or received.


Mark 9:13.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Again Christ, after the transfiguration comfirms that the expected Elija was already coime and the people maltreated him. Why? Because they did not understand. The question is this, will God stop or pause his program because of our ignorance? Again, reincarnation is confirmed by the creator.



9) John 12: 23-24 .

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit

Christ was speaking metaphorically that He needed to die, so he can ressurrect in a better role. That death was necessary for him to re-incarnate into the world as a King. How many Christians were there during his days? How many are do we now? The increase is astronomical. God's abracadabra na wao! Note Hebrew 1:6,, And again when he bringeth his fist begotten into the world, Note also that in his previous incarnation at the arraingment he told his disciple that he could possibly ask his Father to give him angels to free him. from Hebrew, we are told that in his re-incarnation, he will not need to ask, as all angels have been ordered to worship and obey him



10) Mathew 19: 28.

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the word regeneration. It means in another incarnation or a reincarnation, his disciples will be glorified. Everything Christ talked about was always about the next coming. Israel refers to the whole world.

Mavenbox,

Kudos for sharing your beliefs and running away from arguing with people of other faith. I still see some stalking you on this thread!

I will like you to address reincarnation. What you understand about it and what christ said about it.

wirinet:
The problem I find with religion especially Christianity is it slippery nature. Someone asked a Question whether there is a ground for divorce, and mavenbox answered that divorce is a sin but then went to give an exception on the grounds of infidelity. So in effect, according to Christianity divorce is allowed on the grounds of infidelity.

What i find about Christianity stand on divorce is its failure in adopting to our present situation. If you were talking about two thousand years ago where marriages were often a family affair between two closely related families, we can understand the disapproval of divorces, but nowadays when you meet a girl at work or on holiday and you can get married even before your parents gets to meet your spouse, you will find that most often than not, grievous mistakes are made in choosing spouses and you cannot wish away divorces, even among Pastors and Bishops. I know of a particular situation where a man married a drug addict and during the short courtship, that fact was hidden from the guy. Now a few months after the marriage, the guy realized he had made a mistake and has to deal with the fact that his wife was a drug addict. He later filed for divorce a year later order to regain his sanity. Are you saying he should suffer for the rest of his life because he made a mistake, because he does not want to sin?.there is a friend that also told me his uncle married a lady who had Multiple Personality Disorder and he was unaware of it in over one year of courtship, their divorce case is still in court but he hardly sleeps at home anymore.So the problems of divorce is a very complex problem due to our present complex society in which we live.

You are allowed to divorce based on sexual unchastity by your spouse. However, if you divoirce for other reasons, you have committed a sin which is forgiveable if you confess it. The forgiveness of sin does not absolve you from God's natural laws (Karma, etc). Hope that helps?

HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE!

And he did cast several stones. Is he not guilty of

a) Fake prophecy
b) Money grabbing
c) Attention seeking aka controversial

L&G, do you get the feeling that these guys are all fake from A to Z?

This terrible debate again!

Can we just let Christians and Moslems get on with their faith? Am yet to read of any nairalander that got converted based on the "debates" here. The debates are really pointless, with little cerebral input and often lead to abuse and exasperation. This is a result of lack of active moderation, and the Religion section needs it big time.

As a Christian and I am convinced that there is truth in Christianity but not absolute truth, just as I believe that Islam holds some truth, but not absolute truth. Do you blame the moslem for insisting that Jesus is not God? Or do you blame the Christian who says that Islam is a joke?

From a Moslem perspective God cannot be man and could not have suffered death. For Christians mohammed is a False prophet, Allah is a false God, so many issues to deal with but having threads without active moderation cannot help guys who want to debate across the reigion divide. I would strongly suggest the following:

A) Parties who want to debate across religion lines must be actively moderated
B) Ground rules need to be set by the moderator and strictly adhered to.
C) Posts off topic must be deleted and for repeat cases, ban the posters.
D) I would also wager that the age of the debater is important, but I note that you cannot police this

L&G

Arguing along faith lines is getting boring. It looks like the guys that come here with agendas are taking over nairaland. No amount of criticism against a faith will change the believers to see reason. Suggest we focus on applying our beliefs and dealing with issues. Live and let live. We all agree that God's religion if any is to love one another and to love him alone. If we agree on that then lets move on and refocus.

Poster.

read john 14 from verse 1 and read till you get to the end of John 16. Read with a plain paper, and pencil to take notes. Pray for guidance b4 you read. Come back to your thread after that

modupe01:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". -- Matthew 16:28

This literally happened in the verses below.  About 8 days that Jesus prophesied his transfiguration.  It happened in the presence of three disciples.  That they would see Him as He would be in the Kingdom of God.

"And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." -- Matthew 17:1-2

Read what Apostle Peter had to say afterwards about this experience on the mount of transfiguration.

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.  For He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.  And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount." -- 2 Peter 1:16-18

Apostle Peter was here declaring that he and other two disciples heard God's voice and saw the glory of God and the appearance of Moses and Elijah, that is, the transfiguration that Jesus had earlier predicted would happen, which was an actual demonstration of Christ coming in His glory to earth to set up His Kingdom.  (see 16:27-28; 17:1-8; 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Rev.19:11-21).

I am familiar with the verse above and you are correct, he showed them his glory in the kingdom in a vision after 6 days. But his 2nd coming is what we are talking about here, see the topic.

Deepsight,

You raise valid points but they are explanable, bear with me.

First off, Can God be man?

This question was addressed by Jesus when he alerted the Jews that "ye are gods".

Understand that God made man in his own image. Man is made up of water, blood and spirit. The last one - the spirit is not visible. For example, Mr. deepsight has a spirit within him that defines his real persona but I can see your body and form. Our being like God is actually because we have that invisible, indestructible part called spirit. At some point during pregnancy, the spirit inhabits the foetus. The spirit is life and sustains life. At death, the spirit leaves the body or the "prison", glad at last to be free. Spirit is the main resemblance to God. God incarnating as man means his own spirit living inside a housing or a body. Capish? In that respect Jesus was said to be the Emmanuel- God with us or God living amongst men!

Yes. God incarnates as man to fulfill a certain function on the earth plane. God can also be a fish, a snake or a tree. Since he is the creator, he can exist in everything he creates. That somehow explains his omnipresent nature. The bible tells us that a rock was christ and the holy spirit came as a dove. When discussing God do not limit him to your own imagination or understanding. God is both good and evil. He is everything.

Deep Sight:
Let me demonstrate the inanities that dogmas like the Trinity lead grown adults to indulge in:

Listen to this fellow:

Above he stated that Jesus is the "least" in the Trinity.

Then:, one second later he states -

Thus declaring that they are all equal, happily contradicting himself.

And also happily contradicting the words of Jesus himself, who stated that the Father is greater than him (Jn 14:28).

I hope you can all see what a joke this doctrine is. It astonishes me that educated adults will subscribe to a foreign myth such as this which is by far more outlandish and laughable than the yoruba creation myth.

Let me remind you lot that there have been triads of gods and goddesses in pagan religions in Egypt, Persia, and many other places for thousands of years and these ideas infiltrated christianity.

Let me also remind you lot that it is cardinal attribute of cults to attempt to deify their founders, or ascribe divinity to their leaders.

Sorry guys, i have to step into the loo, i think i'm gonna throw up.

Disgusting!

Jesus being Least in the Kingdom


This does not take away from his divinity. It goes to emphasizes the different levels of the Godhead. Christ said his father was greater than him, but recollect that his Father proclaimed his divinity by calling him God (Heb 1:6). Your brother can be called Deepsight as well but perhaps he is younger than you. I quite like pastor AIO analogy of imaging putting on different mask.


Tales affecting Christianity?


Are you insinuating that the story of Christ was fake? Apart from Bibilical source, the Bible story of Christ was corroborated by ancient Roman records of what happened when Ceaser became ill and asked the Roman Governor Pilate to send the young man called Jesus to heal him. Let me leave that for another discussion. But Christ is best experienced spiritually after you have accepted baptism ofthe Holy Spirit. No matter how many times you read the bible, your understanding will not be complete without the spirit teaching you.

Spiritually and physically I feel and know Christ. I have also tested different power and found that he Christ rules far above all. Perhaps you need a similar experience. I must warn though that it is God that does everything. If you were meant to know him, you will know him. Some of us humans have different spirits from different places , planets, etc, but untill we receive the spirit of God, we cannot have an accurate understanding of the Godhead.

Viaro,

I recomment reading John 14 till John 16, to understand fully about the Holy Spirit. The power of the holy spirit is limitless. The power was what Christ bestowed on the apostles. We get these things comfused, hence my equations above.

christ confessed that he was the least in the trinity, and he warned against blaspheming against the holy spirit, because the holy spirit is actually God the Father

Viaro,

I was only quoting Noetic and as you see, we share the same view on the Holy Spirit. Perhaps we can deal with this issue of the Godhead on a new thread, because I think the muslims have a perception which is easily accomodated.

Olabowale,

Can you open a new thread on the topic of the Godhead, tell us your understanding and let me come in with mine? Gracias. Perhaps we can invite
Pastor AIO, Deepsite, Noetic?

Holy Spirit = Father, but

Holy Spirit > Word

I rest my case.

in analysing verse 5. . . Jesus is called a mediator. This is interesting.
I will use the holy spirit analogy in my primordial post to describe Jesus. remember I said that the holy spirit is the manifestation of God's power as evidenced at the point of creation and in the affairs of men. the holy spirit is not a person or spirit neither is he a being. . . . but is the direct manifestation of God's power and influence.
So when a person has the gifts of the spirit or manifests the fruits of the spirit, he is simply manifesting the God-like nature of a spirit filled God. God is a spirit and the Holy spirit is a manifestation of His power. The same applies to Jesus. If u read the bible, all of the ontological attributes of God belong to Jesus, this simply implies that Jesus is simply the physical manifestation of God, just like the holy spirit is the manifestation of God's power. . that explicably illustrates the divinity of Jesus. The bible attests to this in Acts 4:12. . . .refering to a salvation bearing name and 1 timothy2:3 calls the bearer of that salvation name GOD.


Noetic,

You have analysed very well, but there is an error- see the highlited.

Read about the Holy spirit from John 14 to John 16. The gift of the holy spirit is a manifestation of the power of God and it is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Let me give an analogy: You Noetic for instance, can give Nairaland members gifts but you have not given us yourself. Let us also recall what happened during Christs baptism- the holy spirit descended like a dove. If that happened how can we say the holy spirit cannot manifest? The power of the holy spirit was what Christ promised in Acts and delivered to the disciples at the Pentecost.

Lets be clear, The Godhead is made of 3 personalities: Father, Word and Spirit and they agree or they are one. I think you chew too much when you a mere man declares that the most important of the 3 cannot manifest, when the least has manifested (Jesus Christ).

Father +Word+Spirit = God

Father = God, Word = God, Spirit = God.

Strange equation, but true.

I will be surprised if he has not yet come. He said this generation shall not pass away before all these things are fulfilled. We are now 2009 years after that statement. If he has not come, then either the Bible is wrong, or he he is lying. I 'll wager he is here with us, though may not answer Jesus.

Deepsight,

It looks to me that for some reason you are not fully convinced about the deity of Christ?

David got it right with his last post, but perhaps I can make it clearer if you let me. A human being is made up of flesh, blood and spirit. God is made up of Holy spirit, Word (Christ) and the Father. The three components are one and agree. It is like saying 1+1+1=1, in real life this is possible if we think in terms of base 3, not our conventional 10. The bible affirms that Christ (John1:1) was not created, his being called a son is in terms of manifestation on earth. That is why him and his father are one. They have duality of existence - exist as spirit and can also exist physically. Clearly the ways of God are different from the ways of men. On earth God takes the form of a human being having in blood, flesh and spirit. The difference between God and a human being is that His spirit is not given to him by measure and that makes him superior. The Godhead can separately manifest on earth. Matter of fact the parable of the wicked husbandmen comfirm the fact that the Son's manifestation will be followed by the manifestation of the Father and the Holy spirit and all the children of God.

Jesus was a man born of the spirit of God, not carnal desires of man. He came to perform a distinct assignment and after that assignment, he took on his divine form. Notice that after his ressurrection he could appear and disappear at will, and he was not recognized by the disciples or Mary except for his voice or when he "opened" their eyes.

The Almighty Father confirmed the deity of the son, please read Hebrew 1: 8.

But I have a problem with some christians who are waiting for him to drop from the sky. That is a result of wrong interepretation of scriptures. Let me stop for now

Noetic.

God is a spirit and is present in each of his creations. Remember he created all things and all religions. God is also Love. Since Christ is God, then it follows that Christ is Love. It follows that anybody practicing Love, has known God (Christ). it is possible to know Christ, without being a Christian. remember that God does everything. He gives us the ability to know him and He calls us to himself. He has his way to make people know his Christ either in this world or in their reincarnated world. His injuction was for all to practice righteousness and not for us to judge.

Davidylan,

Why is it important to pray for Israel? I guess you are still living off the old wine?[img][/img]

Under the new convenant, we are all Israelites, children of Abraham, because of Christs ultimate sacrifice for mankind. That blood was for Jews, muslims, buddist, Aetheist all humanity, but is accessible through practice of the commandment of our Lord Jesus Christ which is Love. Love now  reigns, so no man is superior or inferior. We are one!

I think we should be looking foward to the New Jerusalem which cannot be the present strife filled Jerusalem under dispute. Are you sure that New Jerusalem is not in Africa?

Poster,

You are right that the first man was of African origin. That has been proven scientifically.

Hiowever, Christ would have looked like the average Joe, that was why he escaped easily from them when they sought to kill him. However, when he ressurected he was no more looking the same. That explains why Mary and co could not recognize hm. It appears he looked like a dark skinned person because when she saw him, she taught he was the gardener. The early Roman potraits of Jesus was f a dark skinned man. It appears that he looked black, like h was before creation. God is a blckman., Happy?

Very interesting thread. And very thoughtful too. Kudos to all of you discussants.

Let me clear up some residual issues:

Jesus Christ: In heaven, he existed with the Father as the Word, which was also God. (see John 1). The heavenly existence is unified in the Holy Spirit. That was why he asked in John 17 "glorify thou me, with thine own self, with the glory which I had with you, ", That glory they shared was encapsulted in their unity in the Holy Spirit. In other words, they (Father and Son existed as one in the Holy Spirit from the  get go). Read Genesis 1 v 2 for confirmation , "And the Spirit of God moved upon the waters".

On the earth plane, both Father and son and Holy Spirit can take different personalities and exist as human beings.  A human being is made up of a house, and spirit. The house is built with water and blood. That was  why it was said "Let us make man in our image". That statement was made by God to the Son on the earth plane. And so after constructing the house, by breathing into man, he transferred the spirit which is our common heritage into man. It is that spirit that gives life. We humans existed as one with him in the very begining. The lack of this understanding is the cause of problems in the world.  We can also decipher from the bible that God taught  Adam directly and you recall that when Adam and Eve sinned, they heard  God's voice walking  in the Garden ( Gen 3:, confirming that God manifested as man. After that sin, God and the Son, transmutted back to spirit existence and would talk to man only through angels. It was only the coming of Jesus, that reconcilled man back to God. While on earth,  Jesus Christ existed as a Son, directly Fathered by the Father himself, through the power of the Holy Ghost. So Christ is actually, the Father coming in the mould of  the Son ( John 14:9).


Salvation and Religions

Christians argue that you cannot know God except through Christ and you are not saved if you do not know Christ. Muslims see their worship of Allah as the worship of God directly. What I should stress is the Our Lord Jesus Christ left just one commandment, which defines you as a disciple - Love. Love your neighbour and Love God. God is Love. No matter your religion, once you practice Love, you have practiced righteousness and you are known of God. That was why he said that not all those that call him "Lord, Lord" will receive salvation. Rather than criticize any faith.it is more profitable to put to practice the teachings of Christ, afterall he justified a common thief in the cross, so can we as created beings decide for the creator?

Heaven and Hell

Heaven and hell are spiritual existence and hence  have many levels acciording to the development of individual souls. Paul talked about the 3rd heaven, how many more levels do you have? When we die our spirits go to the appropriate place as directed by God. However, do not forget his teaching that the righteous shall inherit the earth. The righteous who are dead at the coming of the Christ, will be re-incarnated into the world to rejoice with him ( 1Thes 14- 17). The evildoers are elliminated by the angels and they stay in Hell fire, in perpetual spiritual suffering.

Why I would vote for Yaradua:

a) He has tackled militancy. His predecessor looked the other way.

b) he is on track to give us 6000MW of electricity by end of 2009.

c) He is dredging the River Niger, a smart move that will improve business in Nigeria.

d) He plans to tackle the Niger Delta issue post-Amnesty.

e) His petroleum reform bill will be good for the oil industry

f) he has his foot on the ground with infrastructure. No fancy railway project, but realistic ressuscitation of our existing line as a first step.

g) Good fiscal discipline as well as macro economic policy.

f) Cleaning up the banking system and holding CEOs accountable.

g) Rule of Law, not rule of the executive.

h) By the dry season, I expect road s to be constructed across the country in earnest.
The man is a gentleman, not a homosexual or a drug addict or a bigot. Let him complete his two terms which God will grant him.

Why do we need a bill for this? The senate should conduct a hearing to understand the source of the illegal directive!

Chukwudi44, KunleOsob

I admire your informed reasonings on these matters. It is not an easy subject to deal with.

Most discerning believers are shocked and angry because of the insane amounts of money these " men of God"  make for themselves from tithes. They have moved up to the level of acquirng private jets, building expensive universities,, and that is the picture they all see when we talk about paying tithes. Lets reason together and not allow their oppulence mar our understanding of the scriptures. If the tithes and other church collections were purely focussed on the winning of souls, caring for the poor as we see in scriptures, am sure more than 90% of people will not have a problem. The men of God may not see spare change to afford jets and other trappings of the world! I have always maintained that the ENEMY has crept into modern religion, that today most modern religions (moslems, christians etc, ) resemble the anti-christ that was revealed to John, more than , wait for it, aetheist.

Back to tithing before I get ahead of myself on another topic. I am aware that 10% of people will still not agree, so lets go on and address this tithe thing, Lets start from the begining.

Who created you? Am sure you agree that God created you, yes? The same God gave you all your talents and attributes. There is nothing you achieve by your own power, it is God that gives the ability. 1st Corinth 4:7. Because he created you, he also owns you 100%. You are more or less a storehouse for God. All things you have are in trust for the creator. You should use it to glorify him. Do not rejoice that God blessed you with exceptional talent or money, but rather rejoice when you are able to give back to glorify God.

I know Chukwudi44 had a conclusion regarding tithing based on Ananais and Saphire. In Acts chapters 4&5, the new believers were so moved with oness that without compulsion, they sold all and created a common purse to feed the poor and as well to propagate God's words. Annaias and wife died because they lied to the Holy Ghost, correct! But take note of the  overwhelming spirit among believers - that of giving to a common purse for a common purpose. The feeling of togetherness and oneness facilitated that common purpose.  Is the current church together? Do they have a common purpose? Is your pastor truely annointed or ordained? The answer to these may be No, in which case you cannot be killed by the angels like Annanias and wife if you decide to keep your money. However, you still have a duty to the poor whether in or outside your church. In the ideal church environment, you leverage your money and talent with that of other people of like persuasion. In the case of Annaias, the early church freely practised more than tithing, they gave their all for each other and the work of God. I do not see how that helps the argument against tithing.

Now God may not come physically to ask you for the money or your talent, but all around you or in your place of worship, there are poor people to feed, and work of God to be done. These items need money on a regular basis. No amount of spiritual work will take the place of physical things. God created the spiritual as well as the physical and of a truth the spiritual controls the physical. But God is glorified in both the physical and the spiritual. If you fail to use God's blessing appropriately but restrict it to your personal pusuits, you are no different from the unfaithful servant that connived to defraud his master and later got punished. Mathew 24:45-51. You will agree with me that your wealth and talent may be your most precious commodity. If you can freely use it for worldly pleasures, then how about using it  to the glory of God?  I guess that this is why Christ said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. The type of richmen that Christ talked about are the conventional ones, the bad storekeepers! Rich men who understand the principles are already in the kingdom of God and are the good storekeepers. Read also Mathew 6: 19-21, putting your treasures in heaven is actually applying it for the help of your fellow man, who is disadvantaged.

Tithing is only obligatory for 100% 10% of what you have. It is a measure of humility and acknowledgement that God owns everything. Cain & Abel were  tithers. Abels own was more acceptable to the angel of God, leading to intense hatred from Cain. Gen 4:4-7. Our common patriach Abraham was also  a tither. In the scripture, he recognized the deity of Melchisedek and He paid tithe to him. He got blessings in return. In Malachi, the prophet stresses the importance of tithe and the blessings they give. This message, he got from God directly. Before Malachi, Moses gave the same message.  I have not come across any scripture that condemmed tithe collection. During the time of Christ, he was around when the widow gave a denari as her tithe during offering. He glorified her for giving all she had. Christ did not condemm the collection of the offering, he just commented on the gracefulness of the widow, with her little offering. In essence, tithing canot be said to originate from the mossaic law, it is a [b]natural law [/b]and a recogniton of giving what is due to God. Give unto Ceaser his due and unto God his own due.


Finally, realise that in all respects we are debtors to God(Spirit), not to the flesh. Any way you utilize your wealth, satisfy yourself that it is to the glory of God in the main. If your pastor  church does not satisfy you, look for another church or even patronise a motherless home, beggars or a poor people's home. No matter, your tithe is only a minimum expense, you should aim for more than a tenth for God's glory. The race for the kingdom of God is not a sprint gentlemen, it is a long marathon and only HE can give the ability to complete it. Do not allow tithe to refrain you from your destiny.

Kunle,

I think you have to be clear what you are fighting. Are fighting the paying of tithe or are you against its use in the church? They are two different issues and to be sure men of God have abused Tithe money for their selfish pursuits. You need tithe for the church to grow, for full time men of God to be paid and for evangelism. The economics of churches will fail without tithe, with only free will offering. That means propagation of God's words suffer.

The early church in Acts did more than tithing. They offered 100% to the service of God. If you held back, you were found dead. Matter of fact, God owns your money 100%, so if you don't tithe, you invite some other situation to yourselve. Other angels like devil, sickness, accident, armed robbery, 419, etc could dispossess you of more than you could have paid tithing.

Which story is conjured?