₦airaland Forum

You are claiming what Jesus said is good yet you are denying the application of his disciples who believe, trusted, wrote about him and preached what he taught but you don't want to agree that the same Jesus said he will kill all rebellious people. Luke 19:27
So how can he kill them if there won't be any disciplinary action before destroying them? Matthew 18:15-17

Continue deceiving yourself.

So if you choose to shy away from your own religion you are welcome in true Christianity but note that their is discipline among us o we don't behead apostates instead we shun them as in all members of the Christian family globally!🙂

honesttalk21:
👏👏👏

You’ve actually proven my point. You left Islam, started openly practicing Christianity or JW, and nobody harmed you. That shows most Muslims don’t follow what you say they do. But you still defend shunning by pointing to extreme actions most Muslims don’t agree with.

Your survival as an ex-Muslim who left their faith actually weakens your argument.

You still haven’t answered the questions about the Bible. Bringing up Islam for the umpteenth time just shows you can’t defend shunning using scripture. Jesus ate with outcasts (Matthew 9:10), Paul said not to treat people as enemies (2 Thessalonians 3:15), and Jesus made sure his family was cared for while he was dying (John 19:26-27).

Answer these questions with Scripture, or admit your approach goes against how Christ acted.

If you bring up but Islam again, it means you don’t have a biblical defense. I’m not here to defend Islamic law I’m showing that what you do goes against the Jesus you say you follow.

Your way of discipline is harsher on former members than how Jesus treated known sinners. That isn’t biblical. It’s about control, and you can’t back it up with scripture, which is why you keep changing the subject.

Sheep are domestic animals that always follow orders and submissive to those taking the lead among them.
So when talking of a LOST SHEEP it's the domestic that got lost and seeking help to return back to the fold Jesus is talking about.

In this sense a JUDAIST, BOKO HARAM, HINDU, BUDDHIST, TRADITIONALIST may be a LOST SHEEP belonging to our God.

So how do we recognize a SHEEP?

Such ones are always submissive to the religion they belong and ever ready to do whatever those taking the lead asked them to do no matter how funny it is.

That shows they are willing to OBEY and not rebellious.

So you are wrong Sir Jesus talked about two categories of people the SHEEP and the GOATS. While the sheep are ever ready to obey instructions the goats are like Satan choosing whatever pleases them or standing alone away from their fellow worshipers.

Not all worshipers are SHEEP o that is why Jesus talked about SEPARATING them otherwise Jesus won't loose any worshiper you're not loving than Jesus o!😀

MightySparrow:
I
Luke.15.4 - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke.15.5 - And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luke.15.6 - And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luke.15.7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Lost sheep is clearly explained here. A member in the fold swept away by whatever.

In my own church, we are.taught to pray for their restoration even if they have joined other religion. We still hope for their return and reach out in love.

honesttalk21:
Ok. You used to be so in essence you apostate from Islam. Why weren't you beheaded for apostasy?

Because i was a soldier and feared by all those surrounding me and we live in the place where religious tolerance is uphold and most importantly i was silent about Islam i just speak about my new faith. Have you noticed that i don't go about bashing my former religion it's like the religion remains in my past and gone for good.
Of course in many places apostates in Islam are beheaded if you really want to be HONEST!🙂

honesttalk21:
I've already provided extensive scripture evidence that the way you claim to discipline contradicts Jesus's own acts and instructions without you addressing them.

I quoted Jesus and how his disciples applied what he taught them so you can't change what is written in the Bible because you feel disciplinary action should not be taken in other religions when yours are beheading people.

honesttalk21:
Your deflection to Islam despite clearly showing you where death is prescribed for apostasy not just changing faith but becoming treasonably and violently confrontational against other Muslims and the community not mere faith change.

Now you are being dishonest for real because those running away from your people aren't in anyway violent o!😂

honesttalk21:
Essentially your practice isn't biblical and your deflection to Islam the scholarly agreed of beheading apostates for mere change of faith appears more an intellectual surrender being that you cannot defend or justify your position scripturally.

Tell this to others not me.

Please answer the question:

What's the disciplinary action to be taken against UNREPENTANT WRONGDOERS in Islam.🙂

Where is Honesttalk21 o?😟

This is the time to present what Muslims were told to do when a former Muslim abandon Islam, goes about telling people that Islam is delusion and doing what Islam condemns publicly?

Note that what this person chose is not against any human laws but it's just your religion that forbids such things as SIN.

Please tell me what Muslims are to do as DISCIPLINARY ACTION against such a person?🙂

honesttalk21:
Before I continue this engagement truthfully answer, were you once a Muslim?

YES!

honesttalk21:
What’s being presented as historical correction is actually selective history combined with category confusion.

So you don't accept the discipline Jesus and his disciples choose against apostates in their midst.

Now let's talk about apostates in Islam.

What is the disciplinary action to be taken against a former Muslim who has decided to abandon Islam, goes about telling people that Islam is delusion and always eating pork with alcoholic drinks during your Ramadan?🙂

MightySparrow:
I'm
None. I will choose chasing one lost sheep till it is restored.

What is the meaning of LOST SHEEP?🙂

"In your midst" is the correct rendering of that verse because Jesus who is the Way to God's Kingdom is right there in their midst! John 14:6

MightySparrow:
You gave a good piece brother.
cc: Maximumside

Choose one of two.

Christians will shun whoever becomes an apostate among them. Romans 16:17; 1Corinthans 5:5; 2John 10 -11

Muslims will behead whoever becomes an apostate among them.

Which would you choose?🙂

honesttalk21:
I ask you. If Jesus stayed at home how will he have accomplished his goals as a prophet?

Prophets before Jesus did not abandon their homes to start gathering followers and no prophet before him said only his followers are true worshipers of God.

honesttalk21:
Do you say Mary wasn't regarded as righteous before the death of Jesus?

There is a difference between righteous and holy there were many righteous Judaists who became Christians in other to be holy so if Mary never become one of Jesus' followers she is doomed and her righteousness will be in vain!

honesttalk21:
Tax collectors were agents of the oppressive Romans weren't they? Do people even today joyfully pay tax or see it as a duty they have no choice but to pay? In interacting with the collectors how do they act? Be absolutely truthful.

They are civil servants and God has not given the kingdom to Israel so whoever is working under the Roman empire is not evil rather such a person should be respected like Shadrach Meshak and Abednego who were working under the Babylonian King.

honesttalk21:
Shunning is not discipline but rejection to force compliance. Is that the only way to effectively discipline? Did Jesus do that to achieve discipline? Why can't you engage and discourse to achieve the same result? No it has to be isolation to bring emotional trouble and forceful compliance. Justify your extreme ways that doesn't always work. Well over 60% that are shunned do not return. Is that the aim?

Highlighted shows you've not been reading my posts instead you're just arguing aimlessly.
I told you that we must first speak with the wrongdoer several times in a one on one conversation and also take two believers to him and finally the elders of the church will intervene before we take the bold step to SHUN him if he refuses to accept his guilt. Read Matthew 18:15-17 before arguing further.

honesttalk21:
Of what use is an artificial relationship when you are treated like a stranger from the enemies side?

There is no relationship with an apostate once you become an apostate we shun you completely in fact you are worse than a boko haram to us.

honesttalk21:
Was it Jesus who gave you 1Corinthans 5:5; 11-13? Doesn't it contrast the goal to restore? So it's better to dissociate from who gets lost that Jesus says he was sent to? Do make that make sense.

The LOST SHEEP are not unrepentant wrongdoers the metaphor (SHEEP) shows such a person is ever willing to be submissive to instructions from the group just as real sheep don't leave the gathering of others intentionally unless they are lost. You need to understand Christianity before thinking of how to apply what Jesus taught.
So if someone is unrepentant he is not a sheep but a goat! Matthew 25:34-46🙂

Deepspirituals:
If Your Friends Doing it goes away with it ,You may not be Lucky.

Nobody goes unpunished for adultery it is not a crime committed against others but to oneself. 1Corinthans 6:18
Adulterers are paying for their errors but since they don't die instantly just as Adam and Eve never died instantly many concluded they have escaped.😟

stanvesco:
He knew the same way/reasons as all those whom Angel Gabriel visited in the Bible !
The angels always announce their names on arrival.

Whenever God wants to send a man as His messenger to people regarding faith God always give such a person the gift to perform signs.
Muhammad is not from Israel the nation of Priests so if truly it's God that choose to speak through Muhammad there will be supernatural signs to back him as a prophet of God but Muhammad wasn't given any sign so it wasn't Gabriel that spoke to the man.

honesttalk21:
Your keep breaking appart your own argument due to its own inconsistencies. Matthew 12:46–50 does not eliminate the concept of family; rather, it broadens it. Jesus never instructs people to abandon their biological relatives; that idea is a fabrication.

Jesus left home and stick to his disciples that is why his mother and brothers were looking for him {Matthew 12:46} in fact at a point in time they concluded he has lost his mind {Mark 3:21} and that is exactly the same thing his disciples did! Matthew 19:27
So he believes that faith is the strongest bond of union not blood relations! Matthew 12:47-50🙂

honesttalk21:
In reality, he made sure to take care of his mother while on the cross (John 19:26–27) and criticized the Pharisees for using their faith to shirk family responsibilities (Mark 7:9–13). Your approach reflects the same hypocrisy he condemned.

By the time Jesus asked apostle John to take care of Mary he was reminding John of his teachings that Mary has now become a member of the Christian faith since she's been going about with his disciples which the first century Jewish community forbid at the time {John 9:22} so Jesus instructed John to take Mary as his mother in the faith because her other children has abandoned her she is now a Christian always attending meetings with Jesus' disciples and two of his brothers namely James and Jude also became Christians! Act 1:14
The Pharisees were looking down on their fellow worshipers despite the fact that they are all practicing Judaism the case differs from what Christians believe.🙂

honesttalk21:
The idea of treating someone as a tax collector or sinner backfires because Jesus interacted with them, engaged in conversation, and sought to restore them (Matt 9:10–11; Luke 19:5–10). Interpreting this as a form of shunning reflects the disdain of the Pharisees rather than the compassion of Jesus.

I know you are lying to yourself.
Treating someone as a tax collector is what Jesus told them but when the tax collector embrace Christianity he must be treated as a fellow believer (brother) it's someone who turns against the faith that must be treated like that now not a believer who works in the tax office.🙂

honesttalk21:
The verses you reference do not support your claims. Hebrews 12:11 states that discipline yields positive results only for those who are trained by it, which isn’t possible without interaction. 2 John 10–11 addresses itinerant false teachers, not familial relationships. Romans 16:17 advises avoiding divisive teachings but does not mandate complete silence with family members. The critical contradiction lies in 1 Timothy 5:8, which states that neglecting one’s family is a denial of faith.

Shunning is the disciplinary action to be taken against UNREPENTANT WRONGDOER not a sinner. I keep telling you that. If a person commits a sin we don't shun him or her but when such a person insists claiming he is right that's when shunning him applies as disciplinary action! Matthew 18:15-17🙂

honesttalk21:
You cannot support your relatives while treating them as if they don’t exist. Paul clearly states in 2 Thessalonians 3:14–15 to not associate with those who are disruptive but not to treat them as enemies; instead, warn them as a brother. Complete shunning directly contradicts this guidance.

Shunning doesn't mean such a person is no longer your blood relation if he is related to you by blood it's sacred matters that won't exist between you and such a person after all he is no longer interested in the faith that binds fellow believers together but as for other believers we must shun him since we aren't related to him in any way other than through faith so if he chooses to cut that ties so be it.🙂

honesttalk21:
Your your stance treats former members worse than enemies whom Jesus instructs us to love, worse than non-believers (with whom you are willing to associate), and worse than how Jesus treated well-known sinners. This approach does not align with biblical discipline; it resembles an attempt at organizational control through emotional manipulation.

According to the Christian faith such a person is worse than an unbeliever so we must treat him as he chooses! 1Corinthans 5:5; 11-13🙂

Discipline is what faithless and evil people hates but the true God will never hold it back from His own worshipers! Proverbs 22:15

So God's word concludes:

True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

Therefore let everyone know that Jesus instituted the punishment of shunning wrongdoers among his disciples {Matthew 18:15-17} and his disciples are still holding unto his teachings till today! Romans 16:17 compare to 2John 10-11

honesttalk21:
Your argument falls apart when examined through facts, and logic.

It's all the time other people's argument falls apart..

Can you answer this question?🙂

MaxInDHouse:
With all these grammar i only have one question for you:
Do the Jews, Churches and Muslims have the same root claiming worshipers of the Abrahamic God?🙂

Go through the discussion again and tell me if Jesus only came to save just one race whereas all humans are God's children through Adam! Luke 3:38😀

MrEar:
When you saw that he debated you with proof from the scriptures you decided to run.Typical behaviour of Jehovah witness.

Stop deceiving yourself my guy.

Egypt has not changed its location and the Bible says Israelites CROSSED the red sea to the land God promised their forefathers.
So Africans can't be Israelites unless you want to fabricate your own story!😀

immanuelmanny:
I keep telling you to read before responding but you're clearly not.
You do know Africans are also scattered in all nations right? This is known history in all sectors.
So when we say Africans, we're not only referring to the Africans living in the land of Africa.
A bit of geography and history will help you understand understand this conversation, but it seems you're still looking with a blind eye.
So perhaps this conversation is not for you.
But I'm sure those with knowledge will be edified and understand this better.

Good luck brother.

With all these grammar i only have one question for you:

Do the Jews, Churches and Muslims have the same root claiming worshipers of the Abrahamic God?🙂

honesttalk21:
Your dishonest mischief only shows how far you can go. This response of yours commits a category error by using a false equivalence.

It mixes up different kinds of things.

Christian denominations are disagreements within the Christian faith. Islam on the other hand compared to Christianity is completely different religions with fundamentally incompatible beliefs.

Moving from are they the same religion? to do they worship the same God? is a sneaky change of subject. Just because they share some history doesn't make them the same religion.

You fraudulently juggle levels of classification.
Abrahamic is a wider category than Christian.

Abrahamic religions
├─ Judaism
├─ Christianity
│ ├─ Catholic
│ ├─ Protestant
│ ├─ Jehovah’s Witnesses
└─ Islam

Using the top level (Abrahamic) to claim Islam is the same as Christianity is like saying cats are dogs because they're both mammals. It's a classification mess.

The comparison falls apart because Jehovah's Witnesses are considered Christian since Jesus is central to their beliefs even if those beliefs are considered unorthodox. Islam isn't Christian because it directly denies that Jesus is divine and that he was crucified. They can both be Abrahamic without being the same religion.

The hidden either/or problem is clear with either Islam is Christian, or Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian This doesn't work because it's comparing differences between religions to disagreements within a single religion.

The key takeaway is that though there are shared prophets or historical roots they don't define a religion. Core beliefs do. Christianity and Islam are separate religions; Christian denominations are not. This isn't a smart comparison it's a basic error disguised as an argument.

immanuelmanny:
There are Israelites in all nations and assimilated in all nations.

Africans Waking Up To Their True Identity (Israelites)

Yet Israelites are in all nations!.

Thanks for your time!🙂

honesttalk21:
Jesus says to treat the unrepentant person as a Gentile and a tax collector.

NO!
He said his disciples should treat those who are unrepentant wrongdoers among them the same way Jews treat tax collectors and sinners. Otherwise he would have said treat such ones as your brothers!🙂

honesttalk21:
How does forcing a mother to shun her disfellowshipped child, refusing to communicate, share meals, or acknowledge their existence align with Jesus' teaching to love your enemies (Matthew 5:44)

You misconstrued the whole thing!

According to Jesus true Christian are one family so there is no mother, father, brother, sister or any family ties above what we share as Christ's disciples that is why Jesus told the person who felt Jesus should attend to his mother first instead of leaving her to wait while attending to his disciples! Matthew 12:46-50
So if anyone wants to continue being a member of the group he or she should not allow any other ties to supercede what we have as Christians.

You need to see how this makes Islam vulnerable to internal conflicts because if that is how your religion is structured there can't be any war among believers but since you people hold your worldly families above your brothers in Islam it's easy for Satan to instigate you people into killing yourselves yet claiming brothers in the same faith!🙂

What Jesus said is clear.
Only his disciples are his families and that is what true Christians believe.

Now in that spiritual family whoever turns against the rules binding on that family should be SHUNNED! Matthew 18:15-17

honesttalk21:
On family and coercion, you assert that Jesus promoted the idea of one family in Matthew 12:46-50, but this interpretation is incorrect. Jesus actually stated, whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. This means inclusion is based on following God's will, not on unconditional family ties.

If you don't understand the logic behind scriptural instructions all you need to do is ask not arguing aimlessly.

Christ doesn't condone indiscipline stop alluding indiscipline to our King. God's word says he will rule the nations with IRON HAND! Revelation 19:15

Christ taught his disciples that we are all one family of brothers and sisters {Matthew 12:46-50} so there is no reason for anyone to isolate himself from rules binding on the family. But if a member of the family now decides to do that those who are closest to him must first speak to him and if he refuses to change then all the elders of the family will seat him and talk sense into him but if he still disagree with all the elders of the family then he must be punished that is what Jesus taught us! Matthew 18:15-17

Illogical is your religion's approach when your people believe in beheading the person because those who are closest to him won't accept Islam as one family so instead of agreeing to punish him as one family you people are divided that is why you people pick up weapons against yourselves but Jesus' disciples agree that we are ONE global family that is why we are able to discipline wrongdoers in our midst without the use of weapons!🙂

honesttalk21:
You just acknowledged that while you allow them in the building, you make sure no one interacts with them. That’s not providing comfort during discipline; it’s a form of psychological isolation. When you say, if he keeps coming, elders check if he's remorseful,' it shows that the aim of shunning is to inflict enough pain to force someone to comply. What you’ve described is emotional coercion, not love. The fact that 'many come back' supports my argument they return because you’ve made it socially unbearable to leave by cutting off all ties with family and friends, not because they truly believe. That’s manipulation, not honesty. And please stop deflecting to Islam. I’m not defending execution; I’m criticizing your practices. Saying we're better than beheading is weak moral reasoning for a religion that claims to follow Christ.

honesttalk21:
Various Christian denominations (like Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) all identify as Christian

Just as Jews, Churches and Islam identify as worshipers of the Abrahamic God o!🙂

honesttalk21:
Christianity separated from Judaism despite sharing prophets, and Islam breaks away from Christianity in a similar way. Just because they share some figures doesn't mean they're the same religion.

Now it's clear that you are dishonest!

How come you tag different religions as Christians when they don't agree?

But here you are saying sharing some figures doesn't mean the same religion!

Do you now agree that JWs aren't same religion with those different religions all claiming Christians?

Meanwhile you have proved your dishonesty by claiming that your religion that is beheading people and the religion that's shunning people are the same!🙂

honesttalk21:
How can you comfort him so he is not overwhelmed by excessive sorrow during discipline if you're also cutting him off completely, refusing to talk to him, and acting like he doesn't even exist?

Good question!

First of all it's not sin that led to someone being disfellowshiped rather it is unrepentant attitude. After the sin his fellow Christian will call him to order and if he agreed that he's wrong the next thing is to meet the elders for help but when he disagree then one or two more Christians will go to him so that he could see to it that he's turning against what we all agreed upon but if he still disagree then all the elders will speak to him that is the time he will be shunned by all members if he still disagree with the elders of the church! Matthew 18:15-17

Now back to your question.

Since we don't deprive disfellowshiped ones from entering the Kingdom Hall he or she could attend our meeting but no one will say a greeting to him this means no talking or eating with such a person {2John 10-11} that is how Jews do treat tax collectors and sinners among them! Matthew 18:17

But if he doesn't stop coming to our meetings then two of the elders will speak with him to know if he has been feeling remorseful due to the shunning.
Of course he should be otherwise there are many religions out there for him to join if they are better than Christianity it's unlike your Islam that gives the apostate no further chance to live nah.😀

There are many who have come back to the organization after they have found out that there is no better religion than Jehovah's Witnesses after all if there is why can't they just join another?

Your own religion gives no room for them to try another religion instead you people will behead him knowing fully well that there are thousands of better religions out there that will embrace him.

Let a disfellowshiped Jehovah's Witness go and find himself or herself a better religion if there could ever be and stop crying for unrepentant wrongdoers who just wants the organization to change our teaching simply because they have relatives in the organization!😂

honesttalk21:
2 Corinthians 2:5–8, which emphasizes the importance of offering comfort and reaffirming love during disciplinary actions.

You keep going in circus just to prove how dishonest you are.
Disciplinary action is shunning which Jesus taught and his disciples practiced. i
Reaffirming love during such times will come due to the remorseful attitude of the wrongdoer but beheading people for leaving your religion totally negates all human reasoning because you gave such a person no chance to repent!😂

honesttalk21:
Comparing beheading to shunning is a misleading oversimplification. Both use coercion and are wrong.

Ọmọ if your son is shunned he still have the opportunity to continue living and to repent but if he was beheaded there is no chance for repentance.

All these your epistle can't undo the damage of beheading people for leaving your religion!😂

Meanwhile Jesus and his disciples actually practiced SHUNNING that's the punishment for apostasy!

honesttalk21:
Church discipline isn't complete social isolation.
The apostles practiced restoration, not abandonment. After discipline, Paul commands:
Forgive and comfort him… reaffirm your love." (2 Cor 2:5-8 )

So why aren't Muslims practicing this one if you so much believe it is better?

Meanwhile a disfellowshiped person is quarantined from among us until he or she becomes remorseful and afterwards we will welcome him back if he or she is truly repentant that's what Paul is saying but at first he must be shunned! 1Corinthans 5:13🙂

I just love the way you are advocating for Christianity yet you are practicing a religion that says you should be killed for changing your mind against their religion!😂

honesttalk21:
Jesus directly used Zacchaeus as an example of how God treats the lost.

So how come Jesus didn't become friends to Pharisees?

You misconstrued a repentant sinner to hardened evildoers who have chosen to separate themselves from the truth.

Please answer this simple question:

Choose one either to behead your son for leaving Islam or Muslims (including you) should shun him?😂

Jesus said:

"Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world, but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For whoever practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works may not be reproved. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that his works may be made manifest as having been done in harmony with God.” John 3:19-21

Surely majority on this forum hated the truth with a deadly passion.

Just imagine comparing shunning by one religion to beheading by another when the shunned person still have thousands, millions even billions to make his friends but you people choose to be silent because you hate the truth.

But later you will come complaining about Muslims beheading people for leaving their religion.

So if Muslims are to practice shunning is it not a billion times better?😂

honesttalk21:
On Christianity = Shunning, Islam = Beheading

You're turning the question around, saying, "Christianity shuns me, Islam beheads me. Which gives me a chance to repent?"

The honest answer is early Christian practice (1 Cor 5, 2 Cor 2:5-:

* Church discipline (no Lord's Supper, no church fellowship)

* Maintained daily contact (1 Cor 5:9-11: "otherwise you would have to leave the world"

The first century Christians wouldn't eat nor greet such a person:

Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. Romans 16:17

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. 2John 10-11

So stop deceiving yourself the Christians in the first century do practice SHUNNING of apostates just as Jesus taught them. Matthew 18:15-17

But trying to paint it as equal to your own religion that says the person should be beheaded is totally dishonest.

Many Muslims are running away to other places where your killer Muslims can't reach them so what stops exjws from leaving the organization and living their lives when nobody is after them to kill them?😂