₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
JW mandatory global shunning (causing documented suicides, universally enforced)

One thing is certain.
Jehovah's Witnesses are less than 9m people in a world of over 9b people so if you are equating the shunning of 9m out of 9b who are still out there to your own religion that says you should be killed for the same offense then you are not honest at all.

Can you choose to be beheaded by your Muslim people than to be shunned by the same people?😂

immanuelmanny:
Because the israelites were scattered among all nations through their various captivities.

If the Israelites has been scattered among all nations and Jesus is directing his disciples to go and preach to only the Israelites then how come you are saying Africans are the Israelites?🙂

What makes you feel it's only Africa that are true Israelites and not other nations where they have scattered?🙂

honesttalk21:
When did Zacchaeus actually acknowledge he was wrong?

Note that Zacchaeus was never one of Jesus' disciples before then so the man was feeling guilty over what Jews believe regarding a tax collector not based on what Jesus taught.

So the case totally differs because Jesus' followers have a new set of rules that is different from the laws of the Jewish community. Zacchaeus acknowledged his guilt based on what the Jews believed while the Pharisees taught they are better off than Zacchaeus and other Jews.

So when Jesus was talking to his disciples about sin between brothers he wasn't talking to Jews who don't believe in his teachings rather he was addressing his own followers.
Therefore the instruction to SHUN an apostate only applies among the Jews and Jesus is telling his own disciples that the same treatment should be given to a Christian who turn against the group's teachings that's why apostle Paul and Peter emphasized on shunning such ones among Christians! Romans 16:17; 2John 1:10-11

You can't know better than his disciples who applied his rules by shunning those who turned against their teachings nah!😃

I turned against my religion so i should be shunned by all other members of my religion~ Christianity
I turned against my religion so i should be killed by beheading~ Islam
Which of these two gave me the chance to repent and return to my faith alive?😃

reallifegospel:
I choose Jesus, there will be a thousand more Elon Musks but there will only be one Jesus

OK o!

immanuelmanny:
Read from John 3:1-16 to get that he was talking about the world of Israel.

If Jesus is talking about only the world of Israel then what does this statement mean?

‭Matthew 28:18-20 NIV‬
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Who are the NATIONS Jesus sent them to?🙂

honesttalk21:
1. Zacchaeus.You've Just Proven My Point
You say: Zacchaeus acknowledged his unworthiness but was willing to make amends, not argue.

I don't know whether you are trying to hide the truth or you misunderstood the main point.

Zacchaeus ACKNOWLEDGED he is wrong that is why Jesus could become his friend but there were contemporary Jews like Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes and other Jewish clerics who continued to argue against Jesus.
The question is did Jesus relate with them the same way he did with Zacchaeus?
The answer is NO!
In fact Jesus told his disciples not to have anything to do with the teachings of the Pharisees {Matthew 16:6, 12} yet this group were claiming worshipers of the same God with Jesus and using the same scriptures.
So if anyone who formerly accepted the same teaching with us now turns his back on the teachings and start kicking against it Jesus said we should shun them the same way he did to Pharisees and don't forget that John the baptist who came before Jesus also shunned the Pharisees because this group turned against what the scriptures teaches!

Make you write up short and pick one point at a time we are talking about SHUNNING apostates so stick to that point but if you want us to talk about something else then wait until we are through with this that's how to be truly honest!🙂

So if Dan is a bonafide son of Jacob but excluded in the Bible book of Revelation that shows God is not referring to Israel in a literal sense rather it's figurative just as God promised to send Elijah before the Christ but it was someone else that did the preparation for Christ in person of John the baptist it can't be Israelites alone that will enter God's Kingdom.

In fact Jesus told the Israelites that God has chosen another nation that is better than the nation of Israel:

This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. Matthew 21:43

The above is the very words of Jesus the only begotten Son of God telling them that God has taken away God's Kingdom from that nation and given it to another nation producing its fruit.

So it's about faithful people throughout the world that God will raise as children for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Matthew 3:9

This nation condemned God's Son and said his blood should come upon their yet unborn generation! Matthew 27:25

Don't be deceived o, salvation is for all faithful people from different nations throughout the world! John 3:16

immanuelmanny:
And yes Dan is also a son of Jacob.

honesttalk21:
What does treating someone "as a Gentile and tax collector" really mean? Look at how Jesus interacted with them. He shared meals (Matthew 9:10-11), conversed (Matthew 15:22-28, John 4), chose one as an apostle (Matthew), and actively sought them out (Luke 19:1-10, Zacchaeus).

You are dubiously misconstruing matters!
Zacchaeus accepted he is not worthy to be one of Jesus' friends because he was working for the Roman authorities as a tax collector but when Jesus called him he was willing to make reinstitution not arguing with Jesus over his wrongdoing.

The case here is someone who refuses to accept his wrongdoing but arguing with the church of Christ even when one, two , three brothers have tried to speak with him.

It's like two Muslims have a serious issue but instead of you people to follow Jesus' directions on how to settle matters Muslims will pick up weapons and take sides. What Jesus is saying is that we settle matters amicably among ourselves using the scriptures not what you Muslims do fighting and killing one another yet claiming you believe the same God!

Jesus taught his disciples to treat anyone who disagree with the unanimous decision of the church as Jews do treat tax collectors and sinners. Matthew 18:15-17
And his disciples did just so! Romans 16:17; 2John 1:10-11
Please do you understand how Jews in the first century treat tax collectors?
Is that not the same way Jesus taught his disciples to treat apostates?🙂

honesttalk21:
You've misrepresented Scripture, Christian history, and Islamic theology. Here's a more accurate understanding:

You've misread Matthew 18:15-17. The passage actually says, "If your brother sins against you..." and suggests treating him "as a Gentile and tax collector." This refers to resolving personal conflicts (sins against you), not addressing apostasy or doctrinal differences.

What does treating someone "as a Gentile and tax collector" really mean? Look at how Jesus interacted with them. He shared meals (Matthew 9:10-11), conversed (Matthew 15:22-28, John 4), chose one as an apostle (Matthew), and actively sought them out (Luke 19:1-10, Zacchaeus).

Following Jesus' example means maintaining relationships, continuing to share the Gospel, and seeking restoration, *not* total shunning. JW shunning, which forbids eating together, speaking (even to family), all social contact, and basic greetings, directly contradicts Jesus' approach.

You've also misapplied Romans 16:17 and 2 John 10-11. These passages address itinerant false teachers actively spreading heresy within early churches, *not* family members who leave the faith. Romans 16:17 urges us to "keep away" (Greek: *ekklínō*) from divisive teachers.

2 John 10-11 advises against hosting traveling false teachers who promote heresy. It doesn't command never speaking to former members, severing family ties, refusing meals, or imposing total social ostracism.

JWs apply this to individuals who quietly leave, those disfellowshipped for things like smoking, celebrating birthdays, or questioning doctrine, and family members with differing views. This is a distortion of the text.

Historically, your understanding of first-century Christian practice is flawed.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11 clarifies this by stating, "not at all meaning the people of this world... otherwise you would have to leave the world. But... you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral..." Paul distinguishes between unbelievers and former believers, suggesting normal daily contact is maintained with the former.

For professing Christians living in unrepentant sin, church fellowship (Lord's Supper, gatherings) is withheld. Church discipline affected *ecclesial* fellowship, not total social isolation.

2 Corinthians 2:5-8 speaks about the disciplined person, urging forgiveness, comfort, and reaffirmation of love. The goal is restoration, not permanent exile. How can you comfort someone you're forbidden to speak to?

Your claim that Muhammad (peace be upon him) taught beheading is a gross distortion and a false comparison. Islamic apostasy laws historically addressed treason, not simply a change in belief. Leaving Islam in the early Islamic state often meant joining enemy tribes actively at war with the Muslims.

Treason within a religious-political state is distinct from a simple change of belief. The Qur'an (2:256) clearly states, "There is no compulsion in religion."

In classical Islamic jurisprudence, many scholars ruled that private disbelief carries no earthly punishment. Public apostasy coupled with active warfare, however, was treated as rebellion/treason.

In today's world, most Muslim-majority countries do not execute apostates (Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia). Where harsh laws exist (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan), these represent extremist interpretations, not standard universal Islamic practice. There's a growing scholarly consensus that such punishments were contextual (early state self-defense) and not universal commands.

Historically, Christianity executed apostates for over 1,000 years. After 380 CE, heresy became a capital crime. During the Inquisition (1200s-1800s), thousands were tortured and executed.

Calvin burned Servetus for denying the Trinity in 1553. Anabaptists were drowned and burned by both Catholics and Protestants.

During the witch trials, tens of thousands were killed. Biblical texts like Deuteronomy 13:6-10 ("kill him" and Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ("stoned to death" were used to justify these actions. You're condemning Muslims for something Christians themselves did on a massive scale.

JW shunning also leads to deaths. While you claim shunning is better than execution, JW shunning has been linked to suicides, with documented cases following total family rejection. Furthermore, the blood transfusion policy, even with some modifications, has caused and continues to cause unnecessary deaths.

Research demonstrates the psychological trauma resulting from depression, PTSD, and anxiety. Social ostracism activates the same brain regions as physical pain. Family rejection is a major suicide risk factor. Total isolation is psychologically devastating.

JW shunning means parents are forbidden from speaking to adult children (even those dying of cancer), siblings are permanently cut off (unable to acknowledge each other at funerals), grandparents are denied access to grandchildren, and individuals experience total loss of family, friends, job, housing, and identity. It's emotional blackmail, expressed as "leave and lose everyone you love." This isn't loving discipline; it's psychological torture.

You ask, "Which is better?" Neither execution nor psychological torture aligns with Jesus' teachings. Jesus' actual pattern was to eat with tax collectors and sinners (Matthew 9:10-13), maintain relationships to encourage repentance (John 8:1-11, Luke 19:1-10), pursue the lost, and welcome outcasts. JWs, however, immediately cut all contact, refuse basic greetings, and destroy families, claiming this is Christian love.

The honest comparison reveals that Islam, in certain interpretations and supported by some classical rulings (which are contextual and increasingly rejected), prescribed death for apostasy as treason. Growing reform emphasizes Qur'an 2:256 ("no compulsion".

Christianity, on the other hand, actually executed thousands for centuries, using Old Testament law to justify their actions.

JWs practice a universal, mandatory shunning policy that causes documented suicides, family destruction, and psychological harm, enforced globally.

Both execution and total shunning are wrong. You're defending cruelty while condemning others for engaging in similar behavior.

Your false premises are exposed by:

1. Matthew 18:15-17 being about personal conflicts, not apostasy; Jesus engaged Gentiles and tax collectors, not shunned them.

2. Romans 16:17 and 2 John 10-11 being about traveling false teachers, not family members.

3. First-century practice showing that Church discipline was restorative and maintained daily contact with former believers.

4.Your. Christian history reveals a long period - over a thousand years - where those deemed apostates faced execution. It seems inconsistent to condemn similar actions by Muslims when Christians engaged in comparable behavior.

Furthermore, the practice of shunning by Jehovah's Witnesses has been documented to cause significant harm, including psychological distress, and in some cases, even death. This raises questions about whether such practices are morally superior.

In essence, your interpretation of scripture appears flawed, your understanding of history distorted, and your defense of cruelty troubling. This deviates from genuine Christianity and instead resembles a cult, manipulating Bible verses to rationalize the destruction of families.

immanuelmanny:
The names don't differ the way you want it, and doesn't change the context;

Is Dan not a son of Jacob?
What brought Manasseh in when Joseph is already in the list?

immanuelmanny:
In the end of the bible, we clearly see God fulfil his promise to the Israelites by giving them the kingdom as he promised by all the prophets.
Revelation of John 21:12:
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.

Please do you still remember the names of this twelve tribes?

In the Bible book of Exodus:

Reuʹben, Simʹe·on, Leʹvi, Judah; Isʹsa·char, Zebʹu·lun, Benjamin; Dan, Naphʹta·li; Gad Ashʹer and Joseph. Exodus 1:2-5

In the Bible book of Revelation:

Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed; out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000; out of the tribe of Gad 12,000; 6 out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000; out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000; out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh 12,000; 7 out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000; out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000; out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000; 8 out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000; out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000; out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed Revelation 7:5-8

Can you please tell me why the names in the list differ?

Shunning unrepentant wrongdoers helps others in the group to know that such a person needs to be quarantined spiritually speaking. Romans 16:17; Titus 3:9; 2John 1:10-11; Jude 1:19

But if such a person repented after a while what happens?

Apostle Paul said:

If all the inhabitants of planet earth are Muslims what will be the result of Muhammad's instruction to behead an apostate?

It is noteworthy that when Muslims have issues among themselves regarding land disputes or rulership they are always divided into fractions just as it happened immediately after the death of their leader (Muhammad) the group started fighting themselves over who will take the lead because Muhammad never gave them instructions on how they should handle matters after his death so because he died suddenly they needed to choose someone who will replace him which led to a bloodbath among Muslims and that has continued till today. So Muslims can't settle their disparities peacefully among themselves yet this religion will hypothetically join hands in fighting against any state where Muslims are mistreated.

What about Jesus?

Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say.  This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man; now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness. I therefore exhort you to confirm your love for him. 2Corinthians 2:5-8

So after been shunned by all members of the group for some times if the person come back to his or her senses he or she will be reinstated as one of the Christian family because he has repented.

But what about Islam?
The apostate is to be killed instead of giving him or her the opportunity to feel the need to return to the group and there is no thought of repentance after the erring one has been beheaded.

I'm expecting Honesttalk21 to respond to this because he's been arguing saying the shunning Jesus taught his disciples and the beheading Muhammad taught are the same thing!🙂

If all the inhabitants of planet earth are Muslims what will be the result of Muhammad's instruction to behead an apostate?

It is noteworthy that when Muslims have issues among themselves regarding land disputes or rulership they are always divided into fractions just as it happened immediately after the death of their leader (Muhammad) the group started fighting themselves over who will take the lead because Muhammad never gave them instructions on how they should handle matters after his death so because he died suddenly they needed to choose someone who will replace him which led to a bloodbath among Muslims and that has continued till today. So Muslims can't settle their disparities peacefully among themselves yet this religion will hypothetically join hands in fighting against any state where Muslims are mistreated.

What of Jesus?
Jesus chose twelve Apostles out of many disciples {Luke 6:13} and told them that this men will oversee the activities of his group after he's gone then he chose one out of the twelve to act as spokesman among them {Matthew 16:18} that is why Apostle Peter always stand as their spokesman {Act 2:14; 3:12; 4:8; 5:8, 29} Jesus said whatever Peter and the twelve bind on earth has been bound in heaven and whatever they loosen on earth has been loosened in heaven {Matthew 16:19} that is why all Christians in the first century were unitedly obedient to the Apostles. Act 2:42
So whenever any matter arises that could lead to division among Christians it's the duty of the Apostles to settle such a case. Act 15:1-2
Whatever the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem concludes is binding upon all members of Christianity globally. Act 15:23-29
This makes PEACE reign among the first century disciples even though Jesus is no longer visibly present among them as they are all obedient to Peter and the Apostles so Jesus' prayer to God that all his disciples should become one family was granted! John 17:22 compare to 1Corinthans 1:10; 1Peter 3:8

So there is fear even though they never used weapons against anyone because if anyone turns against the teachings of the Apostles such a person is about to create division therefore what Jesus commanded them will be applied which is SHUNNING such a person just as Jews does to tax collectors and sinners! Matthew 18:15-17

Please let us compare.
If the whole world happens to become Muslims can the religion bring peace among adherents?
If the whole world happens to become Christians can the religion bring peace among adherents?🙂

All descendants of Adam are CURSED that is why death spread to all humans because of the CURSE! Romans 5:12

The difference today comes as a result of long time attitude of tribes and rulers in each part of the continent.

Jesus taught his disciples that if one of them insists on his or her own opinion as against the whole group they should SHUN such a person and treat him the same way Jews do treat tax collectors and sinners! Matthew 18:15-17
The Jews won't greet nor eat with such a person so first century Christians follow this way of punishment for apostates. Romans 16:17; 2John 1:10-11

Apostates are former members of faith who turned against their own religion for one reason or another so Jesus taught his disciples to shun such ones in their midst.

Muhammad on the other hand taught his disciples to behead apostates in their midst.

Please which one is better?

Let us discuss.

Over to you Honesttalk21.

honesttalk21:
Catholics and Protestants engaged in centuries of conflict. Did this invalidate Christianity?

Jesus commanded his own disciples not to raise weapon against anyone be it friend or foe {Matthew 5:43-48} so when you see any religion disobeying what Jesus commanded they are not his disciples! John 15:14

honesttalk21:
Beheading represents physical cruelty, while shunning leads to suicide.

So killing someone for leaving your religion and shunning him is the same to you shey?😂
Well to be honest one still gives him the opportunity to continue living because if shunning is what Islam teaches no single soul will remain in your religion after all there are thousands of religions waiting to embrace them out there but when a person commits suicide because people will shun him or her that makes the person JUDAS ISCARIOT!😂

honesttalk21:
Why practice shunning if Jehovah will ultimately judge wrongdoers? The question and the logic are identical.

Are you honestly saying what the whole organization agreed to do is the same as when you people are divided into taking sides in conflict?🤣

honesttalk21:
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 states: If a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the prediction does not come to pass, then Jehovah did not speak it.
Your publications have predicted/implied:
- The resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in 1925.
- The end of 6,000 years in 1975.
- That the generation of 1914 would not pass away (revised more than five times).
A simple yes or no will suffice. 0Were these false prophecies?

NO!
Because you have not quoted any of the publications of JWs where a specific date is mentioned whereas these prophecies are WRITTEN in God's word. 🙂

Misinformation! Seun complete it.

You can still find such a woman but you must be ready to walk with God because those qualities come with the fruit of God's Holy Spirit {Galatians 5:22-23} so it is only among His true worshipers you can find such ones!

Between Jesus and Elon Musk choose one and shun the other!

After the rebellion in Eden God must give Adam and his descendants chance to prove their ability to cohabit without God that is what brought about pain and suffering!🙂

Babylon the Great has fallen! Revelation 14:8; 18:2

The world empire of false religion is what the Bible called Babylon The Great so make it your duty to figure out if your religion is no part of Babylon The Great because She is the mother of all the false religions on planet earth today!🙂

Do you believe in that kingdom?
Do you know what God's Kingdom means?🙂

Salvation is not sure for anyone until the journey ends so when the first century disciples are talking about salvation they meant those sticking to the practices and teachings handed over to them by Jesus.

So regarding salvation Jesus himself said:


“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ‭Matthew 24:9-13 NIV‬

Highlighted in red shows the difficulties awaiting the congregation (church) while the highlighted in green shows what will happen to members of the congregation so if any stops working with the group as Jesus commanded and leaves the church such a person will not be saved! Hebrews 10:24-26

Now you are behaving like the churchians with whom you've been arguing for years on Nairaland without any proof that your religion is better!🙂

Now questions for you no quoting books rather responses should make sense to everyone to prove that your God is real.

What is the benefit of religion if members are fighting and killing fellow members like unbelievers are doing?

Do you think beheading a person for leaving your religion is better than excommunication which JWs are doing?

How can picking up weapons to fight makes sense to an unbeliever if your Allah promised to judge evildoers?🙂

honesttalk21:
I've read it again. It's not really about our time it's more like timeless advice that applies to believers in any generation when they're dealing with unfairness. Let me explain why I think your understanding isn't quite right:

1. It's about personal faithfulness, Not Proving an Organization

Psalm 37:7-11 is telling individuals to:

Trust that God will make things right eventually (don't be jealous of bad people)

Don't try to get revenge yourself (don't get worked up or angry)

Be patient and wait for God to judge

It definitely doesn't say a specific religious group in the 20th or 21st century will prove they're right by not fighting.

Global peace will happen because one group is peaceful, even though wars are still happening everywhere else.

The meek inheriting the land means 8 million JWs not joining the military.

You're turning personal advice about faith into a way to justify your organization. The passage is about how people should react to injustice, not about finding the true religion.

2. A Little While has been over 3,000 Years

Verse 10: A little while, and the wicked will be no more.

Let's be realistic;this was written about 1,000 BCE. The wicked are still around in 2025 CE.
That's over 3,000 years of a little while.

JWs have been around for another 150 years since they started in the 1870s, and they've made a few predictions that didn't come true.

1914: A little while before Armageddon didn't happen

1925: A little while before important figures from the past came back didn't happen

1975: A little while before the end didn't happen

2025: Still waiting for a little while

If this passage proves JWs are right because they're waiting patiently, why have they kept setting dates and getting it wrong? That's not patient waiting that's making false prophecies (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).

3. Your Muslim fighting argument applies to JWs too.
You say how can Muslims prove they're innocent when they're fighting and killing their own brothers who believe in the same book? Well, the same could be said about JWs:
a) You fight each other just not with weapons.
1980s apostasy crisis: Lots of people were kicked out, the organization was purged, and families were torn apart.

Ongoing shunning: Parents aren't allowed to talk to their children, siblings are permanently cut off; it's like psychological warfare.

Legal battles: You aggressively sue people who criticize you, former members, and even governments.

Doctrinal wars: People who question the rules about blood transfusions, the generation teaching, or covering up abuse get kicked out.

Is that peace and prosperity (Psalm 37:11)? Or is it internal conflict that just looks different?

b) You kill with rules, not weapons:

Blood transfusion ban: How many JWs died because they refused blood, following rules that later changed (now some blood parts are allowed)?

Shunning: Psychological harm that's been talked about in mental health research; suicides that are linked to being kicked out.

Abuse cover-ups: The Australian Royal Commission found that JWs didn't report 1,006 alleged abusers which allowed them to keep hurting children.

You don't use swords, but your rules cause suffering and death to your own brothers who believe in the same book.

4. Muslims do condemn violence Among themselves.
You claim that Muslims fight each other, which proves their faith is worthless. But here's the truth:

a) Muslims are the NAIN VICTIMS of Islamic extremism:

Iraq: Hundreds of thousands of Muslims killed by ISIS (who are also Muslims)

Syria: The Assad regime + ISIS killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims

Afghanistan: The Taliban + ISIS-K kill Muslims every day

Pakistan: Terrorist attacks mostly target Muslims

b) Muslims are the MAIN ONES FIGHTING against Islamic extremism:

Iraqi and Syrian forces defeated ISIS (Muslim soldiers fighting Muslim extremists)

The Pakistani military is fighting the Taliban

Egyptian, Jordanian, and Saudi forces are fighting extremism

Islamic scholars are issuing statements condemning terrorism.

c) Most of the 1.8 billion Muslims live peacefully:

Most Muslims never get involved in violence

Internal conflicts (Sunni-Shia, political) don't represent everyday Muslim life any more than JW disfellowshipping represents all JWs.

Your claim that Muslims ignore violence within their community is clearly wrong. They're even dying to stop it.

5. The part You highlighted disproves Your Point.

You highlight Do not fret when people succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes. Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret it leads only to evil.
This is telling believers: Don't be jealous of the success of evildoers,Don't try to get revenge yourself,Don't let your anger lead you to do bad things.
It does NOT say:Don't defend yourselves when you're attacked. Never get involved in any conflict ever. Being completely peaceful proves you're righteous.

Even the Bible shows that righteous people fought when they had to. David fought Goliath and led armies;he was chosen by God and called a man after God's heart.

Joshua fought to enter the Promised Land (God commanded him to)

The Israelites defended themselves many times (with God's approval)

Psalm 37 is about personal attitude toward injustice, not about being completely peaceful no matter what. You're reading modern JW teachings into ancient wisdom.

6. The Meek Will Inherit the Land
Verse 11: But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity.

JW interpretation: We're meek because we don't fight, so we'll inherit the earth.

But this gives rise to problems:

a) Jesus quoted this in Matthew 5:5: Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Who are the meek?
People who are humble before God

People who don't brag about themselves

People who trust God instead of human power

NOT:

One specific religious organization

Only people who refuse to join the military

People who've never had internal conflicts

b) The inheritance is in the FUTURE, not now:

JWs don't currently inherit the land:

You're 0.1% of the world's population

You don't govern nations

You don't own the earth

Wars are still happening everywhere, even though you're peaceful

If this prophecy is being fulfilled now through JWs, where's the inheritance? Where's the peace and prosperity?

c) Christians, Jews, and Muslims ALL lay claim to being the meek.

Christians: Point to Matthew 5:5, asserting their inheritance through Christ.

Jews: Interpret Psalm 37 as applying to the faithful of Israel.

Muslims: Argue that submission to God (Islam) makes them humble/meek.

Your interpretation isn't unique, every Abrahamic faith sees itself in this passage.

7. You're not exactly "Honest Hearted" either.

You accuse me: Obviously you are not honest hearted. Yet, your own honesty is questionable:

a) You selectively apply standards:

Muslims fighting = proof their faith is false.

JWs' internal conflicts, policy-related deaths, abuse cover-ups = (conveniently ignored).

b) You gloss over failed JW prophecies:

The predictions for 1914, 1925, and 1975 didn't pan out.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 says false prophecy disqualifies prophets.

Instead of admitting error, you reinterpret these failures as progressive revelation.

c) You claim prophecy fulfillment without actual evidence.
The meek inherit the land yet the JWs don't possess the earth.
The wicked will be no more but the wicked are still very much present.
Peace and prosperity yet wars rage globally, and JW families are torn apart by shunning.

d) You create blatant double standards:
You demand Muslims have zero internal conflict to prove Islam's truth but you excuse JW internal conflicts, failed prophecies, and harmful policies.
So, who's really being dishonest here?

8. The Core Message: Psalm 37:7-11 teaches that individual believers should trust in God's justice and not seek personal revenge. Ultimately, God will judge the wicked and vindicate the righteous. In the meantime, remain faithful despite the apparent injustice.

What it definitely does NOT teach is that a single religious organization proves its truth through organizational pacifism. That a little while somehow means 3,000+ years (and counting). That internal conflicts among believers automatically invalidate their faith.
That JWs uniquely fulfill this passage while everyone else fails miserably.
Your interpretation hinges on ignoring the JW's failed prophecies (1914, 1925, 1975),
excusing JW internal conflicts (disfellowshipping, shunning, abuse),applying harsh standards to Muslims while giving JWs a free pass, claiming fulfillment (inheriting the land, removal of the wicked) that simply hasn't happened.

If this passage proves the JWs are right, then it equally proves that the Amish are right (pacifist, internally peaceful). The Mennonites are right (conscientious objectors,communal).
The Quakers are right (historic peace testimony).

Or, more honestly the passage addresses timeless spiritual principles, not organizational validation.

I've maintained honesty throughout this discussion. You're the one selectively interpreting Scripture to validate your own group while conveniently ignoring its failed prophecies and internal failings.

That's not honesty it's textbook confirmation bias!

honesttalk21:
Do JWs represent all nations as described in Isaiah 2 and Micah 4, or are the faithful always a small minority, as suggested in Revelation 20:8? Which is it, because both can't be true?

Just as only Adam and Eve started the planet and just as Noah and his family populated this planet the God of Abraham only need few faithful people in each nation!

honesttalk21:
Do numbers matter, or not? If numbers are irrelevant, then stop using your global presence as an argument. If they do matter, how do 8 million JWs represent all nations better than Islam (1.8 billion) or Christianity (2.4 billion)?

The number matters only when we have disciples of the Prince of Peace in every nation of the earth. The 1.8 billion you are talking about aren't faithful to your God nah!🙂

honesttalk21:
Where is the Psalm 37 scenario playing out? Where is the removal of the wicked, the meek inheriting the earth, and the abundance of peace when wars are still happening and JWs make up only 0.1% of the global population?

It's after we have gathered peace lovers from all nations throughout the earth that the end will come as angels will act in destroying disobedience people! Matthew 24:14

honesttalk21:
How do the failed predictions of 1914, 1925, and 1975 not violate Deuteronomy 18:21-22? Where does the Bible say it's okay to excuse false prophecies with the idea of progressive understanding?

Can you present one publication of JWs where a specific date is mentioned with the prophecy you are talking about?
Do Muslims talk about the end of all evil?
So do you take that as an accusation that those saying it are false prophets?🙂

honesttalk21:
If infighting among Muslims disproves Islam, do the JW practices of disfellowshipping, family shunning, abuse scandals, and doctrinal changes disprove Watchtower by the same logic?

Disfellowshipping is the punishment for anyone who turn against organizational arrangement so once a person stops believing in what Jesus commanded such a person is no longer one of us. It's unlike your Islam where you people will pick up weapons in support of sides yet claiming worshipers of the same God.

honesttalk21:
How does enforcing shunning and cutting off parents from their children fulfill John 13:34-35's command to be known by our love?

Nobody is forcing anybody, you become a member of our organization through studying and accepting what we believe so once you turn against what you agree to keep it's love for the rest to quarantine you! Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11

honesttalk21:
If Jesus already brought peace, why did he say he came to bring division (Matthew 10:34; Luke 12:51)? And if Christian violence didn't invalidate Christianity, why does Muslim violence invalidate Islam?

The peace Jesus brought only exists among those who believe in his teachings you can't expect improvement from patients who refuse to take their medications nah!🙂

honesttalk21:
Why do doctrines about blood transfusions, organ transplants, and generations change if God's truth is unchanging (Malachi 3:6)?

What do you mean by this one again?😂

honesttalk21:
How is redefining the failed visible return of Christ in 1914 as an invisible one not simply moving the goalposts?

Jesus returned in the year 1914 and that is not visible but evidence is global since everything he talked about is noticed globally from that time till today! Matthew 24:7-14

honesttalk21:
The main inconsistency is this: Why are Muslims condemned for human failures, while JW failures are excused as the actions of imperfect humans or attributed to new light?

There is no failure in late understanding of what is learned but killing fellow believers while your religion keeps greeting "SALAM" is clear failure of your God, his prophet and book!

honesttalk21:
How do you explain three long-time Jehovah’s Witness elders convening a judicial committee on July 14, 2025, to examine alleged sins including blasphemy and responsibility for deaths (2021–2022) attributed to eight Governing Body members and that after refusing repentance these leaders were disfellowshipped?

You keep going in circus.
Disfellowshiping unrepentant wrongdoers is what Jesus commanded! Matthew 18:15-17

honesttalk21:
Are we using one standard or two? Either human failure invalidates religious claims, or it doesn't. Let's apply the same rules across the board.

We are using the same standard it's you who is deceiving yourself while arguing up and down over Arab religion which has nothing beneficial other than bowing to the black stone in Mecca!🙂

He himself is sinning against the spirit of God!🙂

honesttalk21:
If this prophecy were actually happening, the wicked wouldn't still be in charge.

Obviously you are not honest hearted as you claim!

Now read it again and tell me if it's not talking about our time:


Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him; do not fret when people succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes. Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret—it leads only to evil. For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity. ‭Psalms 37:7-11 NIV‬

The highlighted in red is specific telling us not to be carried away with the evil deeds others may be doing neither should we envy their success because God will judge them.

Now tell me how your Muslim people who are fighting and killing themselves could prove innocent while fighting and killing not just faithless people but your own brothers who are carrying the same book!🙂

annyplenty:
Let us look at the two scriptures you quoted for justification that men and women can wear earrings
1.Romans 15:4 KJV
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
This scripture neither bears relevance to the issue of earrings nor to the fact that we can wear earrings because Rebekah that was coming from idolatrous, home wore earrings, and who was not even married to Isaac at that time wore it.
2. The second scripture you quoted as your justification for earrings and example of faith for us to follow is even talking about the people that God destroyed in the wilderness for not obeying Him. Read from verse 5 below

1 Corinthians 10:5-11 KJV
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.



They are not my self righteousness. They are principles founded in the Bible.

God gives us His commandments to obey; or are you saying otherwise?

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith
Hebrews 12:2 KJV
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And lastly, verse 31 of 1 Cor 10, you quoted say

1 Corinthians 10:31 KJV
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

When you puncture your nose and ears and lips and put rings into them, what glory is there for God?

Is God's glory in the appearance of His faithful worshipers like Rebecca?🙂

annyplenty:
That anyone mentioned in the Bible did something is not a license for Christian to do it. Many of them were just learning God and never knew the way of God in full.

The Bible calls them examples of faith! Romans 15:4; 1Corinthans 10:11
So if God never condemned their action you can't!

annyplenty:
Solomon married hundreds of wives. Abraham went into the maid of his wife. Rebekah wore earrings and many more: all these examples are not a license to repeat what they did.

Solomon did what is wrong according to God's word he shouldn't have married pagans neither increase women for himself! Deuteronomy 7:3
That's why he failed.

annyplenty:
What can be used as yardsticks for our behavior as Christians are as follows, and not what a random Bible personality did.

1. What God commanded us in the Bible to do

2. What God rebuked or commended people in the Bible for doing

3. Jesus our role model: what he can do and what he cannot do

4. What ever will bring glory to God

Can you back all these your self righteous rules with the Bible by pointing out which one condemns the use of earrings?🙂

honesttalk21:
Plus, quoting the Psalms to attack Muhammad pbuh is a bad move. Qur'an 21:105 clearly acknowledges David, showing a connection, not a lack of understanding.

Your Muhammad quoted David but why can't he help his followers to put trust in the God who made that promise?

Instead Muhammad's followers are still fighting and killing themselves for power yet they have what David said about the righteous in their book.

honesttalk21:
And using the black stone thing to bash Islam is a cheap shot. Wars are about the struggle for power.

Today when Muslims hear that Muslims in any part of the earth are killed your people will unite planning to revenge but then when Muslims are killing their own fellow Muslims you will say they are struggling for power. I wonder why you failed to see the hypocrisy in that yet you called yourself "honesttalk"

So what is the essence of their faith?

Please what exactly is the purpose of your religion if those claiming believers in your religion failed to live by the things written in their book?🙂

So just as God included Rahab an harlot from Jericho and Ruth an idolater from Moab in his promises so that their names were included in the history of Jesus Christ {Matthew 1:5 compare to Hebrews 11:31} the same will happen to any human who proved to be faithful to the word of God:


For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ‭John 3:16 NIV‬

Note the highlighted in red "whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish" but whoever fails to believe in Jesus will surely perish whether he is a descendant of Jacob or not! John 3:17-18