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They believe in going to heaven but when one of them dies they say prayers can't stop it. Maybe what they meant is that their God wanted that person in heaven much more than they do here on earth!😟

QuinQ:
This has nothing at all to do with commenting on my thread. I did not expect you to comment. I only included your moniker just llike others.
The issue is that you said you're doing it because that's what Jesus would have done, and that is NOT true. Christ did not even interact with Gentiles. Jesus would never have been on a platform like this!

If not because of matters relating to faith do you think someone like you can have the opportunity to talk to me?

Well i'm here talking to all kinds of people because of faith and of course Jesus interacted with gentiles a lot due to their faith!🙂

QuinQ:
When friends and family pressure you into marrying just because it is societal norm, though it is not what you want, how is that "positive guidance"? Isn't that the perfect definition of coersive control?

Whatever you wish jàre!

Both correlates. Guidance and control may sound different now because you want to be sincere with the rendering as you found something like that in the Bible but would you have agreed that a member of a religion who insisted on marrying a fellow member of his church or on bloodless surgery even at the point of death is guided and not controlled?
Well in the world we live in today people always use both words interchangeablly depending on how they want it to sound in the hearing of their audience!😟

triplechoice:
I suggest you use the word, "guidance" not "control". Using "control" not only makes you sound like QuinQ, but it also renders your argument invalid.

Positive guidance, regardless of its source, is not the same as "coerce control". Guidance consists of suggestions or instructions for acting in our own and others best interests. Coerce control, on the other hand, removes agency and autonomy.

If you equate the two, you are effectively saying God is a dictator who strips us of free will to control us like zombies. There is no evidence this is the case. In fact, evidence points to the opposite: deeply religious people sometimes live troubled lives, while many non-religious people live well-structured, ethical and happy lives without submitting to any god.

This is the puzzle you must unravel, not by citing more Bible verses, but by engaging with observable reality.

Please explain this: How can millions of people who do not follow your religion live happily, act ethically, and contribute positively to society?.

If , as 1 John 5:19 states, "the Evil one controls the whole world" and if Satan's nature is purely destructive ( John 10:10), then how is any good produced by those under his control? . Your church theology creates a contradiction that scripture alone cannot resolve.

I will acknowledge this; you understand the biblical perspective better than QuinQ, as seen in your more doctrinal reply. But please do not confuse divine guidance with coercive control. Why would God give humans free will only to forcefully override it? Upon reflection, that makes no sense.


My central question remains unanswered: What observable, non-biblical evidence supports the idea that coerce control ( something must control a man) is a universal necessity?

Until you can provide that evidence, your position remains a doctrinal belief, not a demonstrable truth. You are describing a worldwide you hold because the Bible presents it, not because you can point to independent verification that the world actually operates on a strict " God or Satan" control mechanism. Belief is not evidence.

immaculatesense:
You are confused Oga.
I asked for the meaning of Worship and Obeisance in Greek, you are selling pepper and tomato for me.

With the meaning you have in mind what exactly are you doing about it? Revelations 3:16
A conscientious traditionalist or sincere Muslim is better than you because he is dedicated, diligent and active in whatever his religion teaches and he believes in doing it whole soul. But you are just running here and there {Job 1:7} only to prove you are wiser than others as you don't want to be submissive to any form of teaching! Matthew 7:23 compare to Hebrews 13:7🙂

Can you remind me what Judas taught that's not the same as Jesus' teachings?

Funny Churchian.

All the Apostles of Christ taught the same thing untill when they have slept in death {Matthew 13:25} Satan began introducing falsehood through his own agents who later crept into the fold. Matthew 13:38-39
These later ones apostle John called the AntiChrist. 1John 2:18
Guy you no dey worship anywhere that's what AntiChrist does so they mix with a group today spill what they want to hear and move on to another group to do the same. If nah RCCG or MFM you see you go join worship today next time nah CHOSEN or DEEPERLIFE all because you can't fit into any religious gathering you just don't want to be submissive to any form of teaching yet you want to claim being Christian. That's the work of the AntiChrist.
A sincere and honest individual will associate with a religion that he knows is teaching the truth and stick to what they are teaching {Revelation 22:11} those are the people Jesus sent us out to catch and show them the true religion not individuals who don't want to be submissive to any form of teaching! Hebrews 13:7; 17😃

immaculatesense:
Was Judas that betrayed Jesus not part of His disciples? Are you kidding me?
They are part of the fold, but Jesus will reject them on the last day. They are people who have their place with Judas, who saw the light but still walk in darkness.

Jesus can't be where you don't associate with your fellow worshipers {Hebrews 10:24-25} to carry out the task Jesus assigned to his disciples. Matthew 18:20

So you must IDENTIFY the gathering of true Christians and associate with them because that's where your salvation lies! Psalms 133:1-3

On the contrary real mockers of God are Churchgoers and religious title chiefs in Christendom Churches not confused agitators claiming atheists!

ReacherSaidNoth:
A god who looks forward to revenge like a petty human is probably no better than a dog.

Janosky:
If he's sincere , he would understand the point I've made.
Bible scholars & researchers are aware of this & label the teachings of Jesus Christ as "primitive Christianity".
Christendom does not practice "primitive Christianity " espoused in the holy scriptures.
Jehovah's witnesses do.

He knows our practices totally differs but that's not his interest he just feel like arguing with Churchgoers thinking his parent's religion is better whereas they are all on the same page!🙂

I've discovered this Muslim guy is not sincere he's just seeking support for his parent's religion by attacking all other religions!

Janosky:
This is the point where Christendom deviated from the teachings of Jesus Christ as revealed in the bible.
All these Councils blended pagan ,Greek & Roman philosophies & coupled with embellishments of holy scriptures to confuse the world.,eg Psalms 9:17 ,Hebrew 1:8 & 1 John 5:7 KJV.
If you are not studious to study the bible,you won't spot these embellishments which has deceived gullible folks.
Regardless of what the dictionary says , Christendom is not the Christianity of the holy Bible.

Janosky:
My Bible student (a police officer in my former congregation territory) his colleagues asked him how come he knows the Bible so well more than them? They said that if they were studying as he was doing, they would just resign & open a church to make money like the popular pastorpreneurs.

That's what pains these guys when they are discussing with JWs on this forum as they realize we are completely equipped with using the scriptures they wonder why we still remain humble to those taking the lead in God's organization because if they know half of what we know they would have started earning money long ago claiming pastors!🙂

Janosky:
@ John 9:4 & John 20:17,Jesus cemented this fact. Jesus /the disciples chosen servants bearing his Father's name, Jehovah's witnesses they are
[/b]

He expected the name to be written so that his fellow confused religionists will profane that name the same way they did to the group name "CHRISTIANS" with thousands of religions and their contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines all claiming Christians!😂

When young men prostrate before elders this guy doesn't know it's not to worship rather it's readiness to obey by carrying out any form of task the elders gives.

So when all the host of heaven do obeisance before Jesus this guy thought they are worshiping Jesus just as his trinitarian mentors taught him whereas what that means is readiness to take order from Jesus.

Now upon all his worship argument he can't present one single church where they are worshiping Jesus!😂

Janosky:
No Sir .
Greek pipto g4098 (meaning Bowing down ) @ Revelation 22:8 is not worship Oga , go & confirm it ooo.
Don't confuse bowing down (pipto ) & worship.
That you bow down to a monarch/your parents does not mean you worship them
@ Rev 22:8-9 John said " I bowed down to worship."
Johns reason/motive for bowing down was rebuked by the angel.
Oga, note the difference.

immaculatesense:
God create Angels and some still rebelled against him.

So are those rebelling againt Him still part of His worshipers?

Jesus instructed his disciples to organize themselves for the assignment he gave them! Matthew 28:19-20
While JWs are doing this globally today you people can't organize yourselves all you do is argue aimlessly about Jesus yet claiming you're worshiping him

Jesus commanded his disciples to make sure there is love among them as a sign that they are followers of the Prince of peace! John 13:34-35
While you people can't even agree to worship together as one each of you nah anywhere belle face yet Jesus is your God.

Jesus commanded his disciples not to be a part of worldly politicians {John 17:14-16} so that Satan won't use tactics to divide them. Luke 4:5-7
While you people can't even separate the holy things from Satan's arrangement.

Jesus commanded his disciples to stop talking or greeting any self acclaimed believer who refuses to hold the same line of thought with them! Matthew 18:15-17 compare to Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11
While you people continue deceiving one another counting those contradicting what you teach as DENOMINATIONS of believers in your Jesus.

Jesus commanded us never to raise weapons against anyone be it friend or foe! Matthew 5:43-48
While you people are fighting and killing your fellow worshipers in other lands in the name of politics and racism.

Yet with all these you people are still claiming you WORSHIP Jesus.

Between Jehovah's Witnesses who says it is not about worshiping Jesus but obeying his commands who knows him better? John 15:14😂

Shame don catch am!😂

Jesus prayed for his disciples to be One {John 17:22} so that there won't be any division among them! 1Corinthans 1:10

So God never answered Jesus' prayer shey?

I don hear you.😃

As for our own leader he prayed that we should be united in faith and that is what God did for him among Jehovah's Witnesses that's why our God started calling us by another group name! Isaiah 65:15

By the way if you believe there should be contradictions then why can't you just accept that this is part of the so called CONTRADICTIONS?

immaculatesense:
There have been contradiction since Christianity began even during the days of the apostles. The letters of Paul, Peter, and James clearly addressed division even right from the beginning of the Way. There were wolves among sheep even as far back as then.
Contradictions will continue till the second coming of Christ. But God cannot be mocked, "The Lord knows those who are His."
So, no change topic, the Lamb was worshipped by the host of heaven. Simple.

QuinQ:
Amazing! You really think Christ would be on a platform wholly owned by a self-proclaimed atheist??!! Wow, you must not be talking of Jesus of the NT. Mention one thing of Rome Jesus participated in, would not even touch the money!

It's really disheartening when people try to accuse someone for being honest with them.
I told you that you can't find any of my posts outside the faith section so if i don't respond to your invitation don't be offended or think that i don't like you.

But what have you turned it to?
It's as if i committed a crime responding to your invitation.

Well Jesus only get in touch with people outside his group when it comes to the matter of faith.
That's exactly what i'm doing here!

Sebi the group name (CHRISTIANS) you people found in the Bible you have defamed claiming thousands of different religions with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines are denominations under the same God?

Well that's the secret because the true God waited until Jesus returned to separate true Christianity from falsehood so that pure worship is restored back before God began calling us by that new group name:

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES! Isaiah 65:15

For your information that name was first pronounced in the year 1931 and from that time honest hearted individuals are seeing that this organization is the true religion that should bear that name "Christians"
That's why you can't mention the name of your church because you don't know any reputable group to mention!🙂

freethinker01:
Tho I don't like their disturbance, I'd have to say they're far better than all their Christian tithe whoring counterparts.

BafanaBafana:
Quite true. JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are actually one of the few denominations who are still following Christ. Most churches now are headed by motivational speakers who only use the name of Jesus to preach other things. The goal is to attract members to their church and the members will bring the money.
Shikena!

APOPTOSIS:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS is operating at a different level.
They have been steadfast, resolute and committed.
I hold no grudge against them. They downplay commercialization of churches.
They entertain persecutions a lot, in fact more than several Christian bodies.
Seems in their church everyone is at same level irrespective of your degree, financial acquaintance and contacts.
And it seems they obey the Bible the most:
-They hardly disturb neighbors during prayers.
-They frown at intimidation and flamboyant lifestyles.
-They ensure financial gifts are covered and never displeased at whatever they recieve.
-Their members would make good politicians but they frown at politics
I respect them. I judge based on actions and not what I'm told.

Oye0404:
well said, once had a witness DAT comes around for years, truth is,dis guys are so caring and accommodating. lots if misconceptions about dem..

XXLDICK:
They remain the most peaceful Christian denomination.
They do not pay tithes. They are the only Christian denomination yet to be commercialized. They are my favourite.
Cons:
They do not recite the national anthem.
They do not participate in elections.
They do not accept blood transfusion.

boss1310:
The way they are hated makes me to think sometimes they might be the true Christians but I might be wrong.

Love800:
I would love to be a JEHOVAH'S WITNESS, because of their gentle life. Relaxed service and programs(not those stressful and loud types), and serenity of their church yard. Infact, its this serenity of their abode that blows my mind!

But the thing that worries me, is their misled teachings. How can you say that we are not going to die, but remain on earth and unite with our love ones and live happily together forever!

Deway52:
I am convinced that JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the real religion, they do everything in line with the bible.
Na small time remain for me now, I don enter. If everybody in the world is a jw the world would be a better place.

DeepSight:
I am not sure the respect JWs have is on account of what you say. It is more on account of their general simplicity, general adherence to bible truth, and the fact that no one can accuse them of being commercialised or money or power focused like most other denominations are. Alot of people see a purity in them which is lacking in many other places. I should know, for as I told you, in my youth, I used to be one.

HardMirror:
unfortunately, JW are the best Christians if we will be honest.

immaculatesense:
Show me Jehovah's Witnesses in that Acts 11:26 na. Because I dey look for Jehovah Witness in the below and I can't see.
Acts 11:26.
26 After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.

Isaiah 65:15
15 You will leave behind a name that my chosen ones will use as a curse, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will put each of you to death, But his own servants he will call by another name;

Janosky:
Nah so indeed .
The disciples confirmed they were chosen as the people bearing God's name, Acts 15:14-18.

That's the deep secret you don't know!

All disciples of Christ know the name of their God because Jesus taught them:

“I have made YOUR name manifest to the men whom you gave me" John 17:6a

Please what is that name?🙂

You are now going to the extreme!


According to that verse no human can live safely without guidance from God that's why the wise man said:

Trust the Lord completely, and don’t depend on your own knowledge. With every step you take, think about what he wants, and he will help you go the right way. Proverbs 3:5-6

A follower of Christ Jesus word says:

We know that we belong to God, but the Evil One controls the whole world. 1John 5:19

This means that there is no one who is completely free from control it's either the person subjects himself to control from God or follow the worldly trends which belongs to Satan according to Jesus no one can sit on the fence:

You can enter true life only through the narrow gate. The gate to hell is very wide, and there is plenty of room on the road that leads there. Many people go that way. But the gate that opens the way to true life is narrow. And the road that leads there is hard to follow. Only a few people find it. Matthew 7:13-14

The guy you are discussing with may not know it deeply as i'm explaining now but the truth remains that something must control a man.
Why?
Because we live in the human society where we try to blend with common trends so only those who are subjecting themselves to God's will can escape Satan's snare! 1Peter 5:8

triplechoice:
I appreciate the scriptural references you have provided, but they do not support the original claim I questioned. In fact, they illustrate a complete misreading.

Jeremiah 10.23 is about guidance, not coercive control, "something must control a man". The prophet is expressing humility and a request for divine guidance. "Lord, I know I cannot navigate this alone, please direct my path". This is the plea of a believer within a relationship, asking for wisdom, not declaring a universal truth that all humans are mindless Zombies who must be externally controlled.

To equate a request for guidance with the necessity of coerce control is to confuse partnership with a prison.

Mathew 12. 43-45 is a metaphor about habit, not a literal law of spiritual occupancy.The human mind is not a literal house.

The parable is a powerful metaphor for the human psyche. It describes how an empty passive mind, one that merely "cleans house" without filling it with positive purpose, is vulnerable to failing back into old, destructive patterns ( the seven other spirits). It is lesson about the danger of spiritual or moral emptiness, not a literal description of demonic possession. To use it as proof that a non-believer's mind will be " taken over by Satan is to ignore its literary form and psychological insight.

So, none of the passage supports the original sweeping claim, "something must control a man". a state of being acted upon. What you have provided are verses about seeking guidance and the dangers of an empty life.

Guidance is something one can accept or reject. Coerce control removes agency. QuinQ spoke of the latter. You have provided examples of the former.

What we observe in the world are billions of individuals who do not practice Christianity, yet live well-structured, ethical and productive lives, contributing positively to their societies and families. According to the logic you've presented these people must be under the control of the destructive force described in the Bible. This leads to an absurd conclusion, that the kindness, scientific innovation, justice, and love demonstrated by non-believers are the products of Satan that by biblical definition, "comes only to steal and kill and destroy". This is not a coherent or credible explanation for observable human goodness.



Therefore, my question to you and QuinQ is; Where is the observable evidence that humans cannot be Seif-governing agents, and that coercive control is a universal necessity?

immaculatesense:
Can you remind me of the name of the Apostles' church again sef...I don forget o.
I think in the Bible the name they were called was Jehovah Witness abi...help me confirm abeg.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!
Name the only true God started calling His true worshipers {Isaiah 65:15} after Satan polluted the group name inhabitants of Antioch gave us in the first century. Act 11:26🙂

immaculatesense:
Where was the separation in Revelation 5:13-14?
YOU DID THE SEPARATION BY YOURSELF IN YOUR MIND RIGHT.

What we do is having the knowledge of the two because it means our salvation {John 17:3} but when it comes to worship only one of them deserves to be worshiped! Deuteronomy 6:4

That is ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE of God's word not following the crowd.

If i ask you to mention the name of your church where the two are worshiped so that we can compare the activities with that of Jehovah's Witnesses who only worship the father you will run away.

Why?

Because those claiming worshipers of Jesus are confused people not organized!🙂

immaculatesense:
Ahhhhh...this guy. You don cast.
Last last you separated them.
I HAIL YOU OH!!!
TUALE.

Of course worship separates the father from the son nah!

Since worship only belongs to the father! Deuteronomy 6:4🙂

When it comes to worship automatically the father and son are separated since worship only belongs to the true God!🙂

immaculatesense:
Another deflection.
But they both worship the father and the lamb sitting on the throne na. Abi na you want separate the father from the lamb now ni?
I QUOTED FROM YOUR SCRIPTURES. EXPLAIN YOU SCRIPTURES NA. E HARD YOU?

QuinQ:
You are comparing with the Lord. If Jesus were on earth today, do you think He'll come anywhere near this platform?
Case closed!

YES!
He sent us out to engage everyone in discussion about FAITH! Matthew 28:19-20
So i'm here just for that!🙂

immaculatesense:
Trying to evade. Explain verse 13 and 14. Simple. If you don't know, come clean and say it make I help you explain am.

There is only one true God says Jesus {John 17:3} so if you're confused due to a Bible verse all you need to do is think (meditate) by comparing what other verses say not picking up out of context a verse that never explicitly said what you want to imply.

That is why i asked you to quote a verse that says "everyone should worship both the father and the lamb" that you can never ever find throughout the Bible that is why you are trying to tie your belief to this verse and ọmọ it's not working!🙂

If a Pharisee invite Jesus for a feast do you think Jesus will honor the invitation?

If Jesus honor such invitation do you think he will say a word beyond what he always get involved with which is faith?

We have a lot to discuss about faith with people that is why we are going to their homes so if an atheist now call for Christians to come and discuss about faith in God do you think JWs (the only true Christian organization) shouldn't participate?🙂

QuinQ:
Yet you're using an atheist's privately owned platform to "relate with outsiders". If everyone behaved like you will there be the vibrant, interesting platform you now have and love to always be on?

Worshiped who?🙂
Jesus said his father is his God and our God {John 20:17} so if verse 14 said they worshiped who do they worship?🙂

immaculatesense:
Why you stop?
You no quote VERSE 14 na. Why you stop at verse 13.
WHY YOU DEY FEAR?
Let me use your JW Bible, I get the soft copy. I go quote am and you go do the explanation.
OYA EXPLAIN VERSE 14, NA UNA BIBLE I QUOTE O WEY USE WORSHIP.
LET ME HEAR WHAT YOU GAT TO SAY.

JW Bible (Revelation 5:13-14
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.”
14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” Revelation 5:13

Our salvation hings on the knowledge of two persons according to Jesus himself! John 17:3

immaculatesense:
You no sabi read? Did I tell you I quoted anywhere? Wasn't that a statement that captured different verses that I later quoted for you?
Oya explain the passage I quoted for you in ur own Bible to prove you OBEISANCE.
I go come ask you how you pay Obeisance and how you pay worship.
First explain wetin the 24 elders did to the lamb first.
Explain wetin the 24 elders did for the Lamb.
Explain wetin the 24 elders did for the Lamb.

I bet you cannot explain it to fit your Obeisance, because the next question will be "How do you pay worship then? Tell us.

I'm a Christian so just like my Master Lord and King the only thing that could make me relate with outsiders is matters relating to faith in God anything else i will do with my fellow believers only!🙂

QuinQ:
That's one aspect of religion that is BAD! How can you allow yourself be made so narrow-minded. So much in God’s world to explore and appreciate and you are mentally trapped in one space. Sad, in my opinion.

The word SIN connotes ERROR so it's not easy to convince a sinner that he should repent because it's when he realizes that he is committing a deadly mistake that he will repent but as for practicers of sin those are people who already knew what they are doing is wrong but trying to play smart while doing the wrong thing.
So the word REPENT is not for everyone rather it's only for those who knew the consequences of sin that's why you can't see anywhere in the New Testament where the Christians are telling people who don't know their God to repent?😟

QuinQ:
Care to participate in my topic that just made Frontpage in Travel Section?
https://www.nairaland.com/8597653/japa-comparing-us-uk-suicide.

I'm sorry if it's not about faith you can't find me there that's why you won't see my post on any other section except on RELIGION!

immaculatesense:
But the host of heaven worshipped both the father and the Lamb who sit upon the throne na.

The highlighted is what i asked you to quote in any version of your choice!

immaculatesense:
Shey you go rest if I qouto am.
As you no know Bible and u no sabi read yourself until your organization releases statement. OYA TAKE.
Revelation 5:13-14
[13]And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
    belong to the one sitting on the throne
    and to the Lamb forever and ever.”
[14]And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb.