₦airaland Forum

Prexios,

Thanks for going to such great lengths to explain the Eber - Hebrew -Israel connection. I am very familiar with this Biblical tradition and the descent from Noah all the way down to Moses. If Abraham was an Hebrew, then all his children and the descent are Hebrews - Moses, Jesus, Mohammed.

How could Eber have been translated to mean one who crossed the river beats my imagination. Everyone up untill Noah and his family travelled EAST, Abraham was the first on record to travel West. It would seem the scholars, rather than admit lack of knowledge in the name, took a wild guess and used landmarks as point of reference for naming. This is conceptual and is a signature-product of Western reasoning.

The ancients took names from the oracle, not from their environment. Much of history and its cryptic messages are reduced into simple correlations with ordinary events. This is so because scholarship has moved away from myths, magic, mysteries and now all things without a scientific validation are classified as conjectures and falsehoods.

The core belief of Judaism is that Jews are special creation and that they only are children of God. This is why they monopolize the two terms "Hebrew" and "Semitic", to the exclusion of everyone else.

So I was under impression when you mentioned Hebrew, your frame of reference was on the Children of Israel. If thats not the case, pardon my trespass.

Let us ask for clarification when a better understanding is needed.

If you recall in an earlier post i mentioned "Yoruba esoteric knowledge" in passing. There is benefit in sinking this discussion into a much deeper knowledge, however the risks of revelation in an open, unregulated forum outweigh the gains. We are doing okay on the surface. The inter-connect between Yoruba and Canaan, and even with Egypt, is best understood in a discussion on Yoruba Alchemy.
This is not the place for such discussion. The analysis of letters, words, sounds and terms are good grounds, with adequacy, to make a link. Sorry if this is not at par with expectations. Remember, this is your thread, you can always revise and set a new theme for our contributions.

Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find reference to Hebrews. You will find reference to "Children of Israel".

1. Who were the Hebrews before the conquest of Canaan?

2.Was there ever any people referred to as "Hebrews" before Children of Israel occupied the land?

3. The Children of Israel only acquired Hebrww language after entry into Canaan and Hebrew only became popular in times of Jesus and under Roman domination.

4. Yoruba spoke Old Hebrew as a tongue but was never a "Hebrew".

So how did the two merge?


It is an error ro lump Hebrew as a people with Canaan as a land.

We see this same error even here at home. There is confusion about the term Yoruba. Yoruba as a people is different from Yoruba as a language. Similarly, Hausa as a people is different from Hausa as a language. Fulani people in North speak Hausa but they are not Hausa people.

I want us to put things in perspective and remove the politics aside. I know some people believe Yoruba is a proto-Israeli group, I am not one of those. In fact I have materials at hand to disprove it. I do believe Yoruba is proto- Semitic. Israel has been branded as a semitic nation and so when the proto semitic is throqn out, some people coclude you are talking about Israel. Not so.

Hebrew is not Israel
Semitic is not Israel
Judaism is Israel

prexios: This does not surprise me, I love it that you stand for something rather than being cynical. More so, I respect your perspective even if that is not my perspective, at least I expect resistance or disappointment as to people's acceptance of my ideas. But that does not mean I am wrong.

"Biro ba lo fogun Odun Ojo kan lotito maa ba", I don't mean you are lying, you are telling the truth. But truth is not the same thing as fact. O ti to means "o-un ti-to" that is, "what last long" You might be echoing the popular believe with the Yoruba people, that is, their projections as feed back from what they have earlier been fed.

But i take the saying 'biro ba lo fogun odun' as prophecy, meaning that the truth will come before the fact, but the fact will catch up with the truth. More so, i take crowder as an elder of Yoruba, and Yoruba had said it all, "oro Agba bi o se lowuro, ase lojo ale" You are not that Agba to me, i dont mean this maliciously, rather i mean you are my contemporary. we read the same stories on the subject and we form different opinion.

Prexios, you wear your emotions on your sleeve. Stop being hypersensitive to posts that hold opposing views to your opinions.

prexios: May be you are referring to me on Crowther?

"Yoruba’s believe that such judgment is the exclusive preserve of Olodumare, God or Allah. On the other hand, Olodumare, Odu Ifa and Oduduwa (Odu ti o da iwa) is in support of totality and fullness. ‘Odu’ means fullness. This is in contradiction to the Yorubas opposition to totality and fullness."


http://thewillnigeria.com/opinion/4417.html

http://books.google.com.ng/books?id=7XSiGw4_qlAC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=odu+to+da+iwa,

Why do you want people to apply logic?
I am at lost as to the logic you apply to suddenly arrived at the origin of Yoruba here

No i was not pointing fingers, sorry the example is too direct.

Prexios, what is IWA? Let's start from there.

Just thoughts on landmarks and geographical designations.

Eba - side
Papa - field
Bode - border
Odan - forest
Abule - hamlet
Ilu - town
Apa - forked path
Oke - uptown
Isale - downtown
Ode - outskirt
Oko - village or farm settlement
Ona - road
Odo - waterside

Hello everyone.

I think we are getting away from the goal. We want to inspect as much phrases, terms, names, timing reference and location reference as possible and trace these stems and branches to a common root. We dont know where the root is so we are keeping an open mind. Contribution is open but materials need to stand a logical test.

Example: Oduduwa.
It is illogical to break the name into Odu to da Iwa. Iwa is righteousness.

IWA is what is symbolized as the APEX or the PEAK or point of MERGENCE for the ascetic on a path of spiritual ascent. A person in righteousness is completely devoid or cleansed of ego and is admissible in God's presence.

This state of purity exist only in God, Oduduwa could not have been the creator of IWA.

So, let's clean up and not just throw stuffs out to test validity; when a name or phrase appears in post we only want it to lead us to a new breakthrough and understanding, not to tie us down in arguments about its application.

If anyone wants a validity check on a phrase then please "indicate it as such" and we can run it through to see if it passes or not.

[quote author=tpia@]zero is originally from the arabic sifr, so the yoruba isiro might have been loaned from arabic, or vice versa.[/quote]Oyo will say Iya
Ijebu will say Iye.

Between the two who loaned and who donated this word?

Two words i found on my own last night.

Irin - Yoruba for Iron
Iren - Middle English for Iron

Isiro - Yoruba for computation
Zero - Latin for numerical digit 0 (-1 < 0 < 1)

Lol.
Prexios,

post your thoughts in piecemeal or use a different word editor. There is something in your editor, could be as simple as an add-in, that is incompatible and the bot is blocking it.

^^^
Thats very possible. I wondered where and how Ginuwa ended up in Itsekiri dynasty. Ginuwa stands for a Guinean. In fact the original term is Ginuwa but corrupted by white explorers to Guinea.

Even Ibn Batutta and El Idris, early Arab writers chronicled in Negroland of the Arabs, referred to the West Sudan as Ginuwa.

Im getting help from someone who understands Greek to check these words for me.

Pelu - Yoruba for addition
Plux/Plus - Latin for in addition

Irepo - Yoruba for bring together, unite (ire - po)
Report - Latin for bring back (re - port)

We will do two words at a time.

Tony Spike: The Hebrews and Phoenicians are Canaanites. They had separate kings at some time e.g. King Hiram Abif of Tyre and King David.

Yes sir, Thats exactly right, Canaanite was their Biblical name, Pheonician was their civilization culture and Hebrew is their native language.

King David was not a native Canaan, he was of the blood of Shem whih descended through the tribes of Israel.

Tpia,

Im adding more words as i come across them, maybe we can build a collection here using this thread as a bank.

Paro - Yoruba for substitute
Par - Greek for same or equal

Apara - Yoruba for sarcasm
Parody - Greek for satire

Tony Spike: The Phoenicians were great sea-farers or sailors, alongside the Hebrews. The tribe of Dan were partners with the Phoenicians in sea-faring adventures. Nobody knows how far they travel in the ancient times, but they did impact many societies with their knowledge. I'll do a little research and see if there are any dots to be connected.

Tony,
There is a mixup. I thought Hebrew was the language of Pheonicians. When Children of Israel, which Dan was, arrived Canaan to sack the Phoenicians they spoke Aramaic. After their settlement in Canaan, land of the Pheonicians, they adopted Hebrew, the tongue of the Pheonicians.

The children of Israel never had kings. Their knowledge of kingdoms and state-rule was acquired after settlement in Canaan. The legacy of Hebrew language, Hebrew Kingdoms, Lion of Judea were all adaptations from the ruins of what was left of Canaan.

[quote author=tpia@]seems all these places have their footprint in yoruba.[/quote]Depending on your refrrence of Yoruba.

[quote author=tpia@]Sea in yoruba is okun.

So, lord of the sea would be olokun ie olu okun.

It might seem to be stretching it to assume a yoruba word would be joined to a foreign one in the manner suggested by Olodumare, so its more likely Olodumare would have 4 or more morphemes, not three.

Ie its Olo Odu Mu Are.[/quote]Tpia,

Sea in Yoruba is Agbami.
Deep sea is Ibu
Ocean is Okun.

Okun > Okeano > Occean > Ocean
Yoruba > Greek > Latin > English

Post Eden, the first seed for human enlightenement and social order was Noah and his domain was the ark.

After him, the next set was four fold in a lateral chain.

Hamitic---Canaanite---Kushite ----Nimrod
Egypt---- Pheonicia---Abasha ----Babylon

After this set came corresponding proxies in a vertical column.

From Egypt came Carthage
From Pheonicia came Greek
From Kush came Yemen
From Babylon came Mesopotamia


Carthage evolved into Andalusia
Greek gave birth to Rome
Yemen produced Arabia
Mesopotamia issued Ottoman


The ground zero of word, art and deity-worship similarities between Yoruba and Greek is Phoenicia. We both came out of that womb. Yoruba were the lost Pheonicians...the Lord of the Seas who were the first Atalas.

I like the change in title but i think Canaan would have be better in place of the Hebrew.

^^^

This is absolutely beautiful response.
I salute you.

prexios: This seems an ancient intelligent report on the peoples of the Sudan (West Africa) as far as the white man can go when they arrived in Africa following the fallout of the Abolition of slave trade and a new quest for conquest. Reading through, the information seems to gloss over selected opinions and feedback from various school of thoughts and records . Major part of it rely more on what the well traveled Sir Hugh Clapperton has gathered from Sultan Bello and which made it to Europe.

the question is, how do we do? do we rely on Sultan Bello/Clapperton as the final say on Yoruba history?

There are untold secrets. Everytime someone divulges these secrets the record either does not make it to public knowlege or if it did is immediately recalled and suppreased.

What is it that those who keep public records and institutional knowledge do not want the Negro to know about African roots and histoey?

The copper of Tekadda was taken to Bomii, Kuber (Guber), and Ragha (Raka in Yoruba?); and here it is worthy of remark, that Guber, the frontier province of Houssa towards the desert, and the province to which native historians concede the supe- riority derivable from an early intercourse with white men, was still pagan in the fourteenth century. This fact alone would be sufficient to prove that Houssa formed no part of the Negroland which fell within the range of the Morabites, even if the general tenor of their history did not contradict such an extension of their conquests ; or if the question were not de- cided by the authority of Ibn Khaldun, who says expressly that " Tekadda was behind the country of the Morabites." ** Ibn Batutah makes no allusion to the extent of the empire of Mall towards the west or south ; but he clearly indicates its limits towards the north and east. When first mentioning the river, he describes its course in the following terms : — " We came to the Great River, which is the Nile, and on the banks of which stands the city of Karsekho. Thence the Nile descends to Kabrah and to Zaghah, and the Sultans of these ^** When Ibn Khaldun says that Tekaddi is seventy days south-west of Wer- gel^n (see p. 65), it is evident that he measures the circuitous route by Gh^t ; and that the bearing of Tekaddd from Ghit is incautiously taken by him for the direc- tion of the whole journey. ** The superiority of the people of Guber is plainly asserted by Sultan Bello, who says (Appendix to Denham and Clapperton's Travels, 8vo. ii. p. 450) that they alone, of all the Houssa tribes, are free bom, being descended from the Copts, while the rest are the progeny of Bawvra, or Badwa, that is, a slave (not Ba-oo, as in Mr. Salami's Translation). The country of the Badwa is Bauchi, or Batyi, commonly written Bowshee. Sultan Hello's History, brought to Europe by Clapperton, would well deserve a critical study : but where is the original ? Did it belong to the public ? and if it did, why is it not in the library of the British Museum ?

The Fellitah geographer wrote sometimes Mouri (Appendix to'Clapperton's Second Journey, p. 332), sometimes (p. 840) Mouli (Mtili). He says, that the people of Ntifi conquered, among other coun- tries, " the west of Malee, or Moulee, and Abyou." And again, that they subdued " the country of Abbi (in which we now are) and Kanbari" (Kombori). Abbi is probably the same as Abyou (or rather Abbiwa), and appears to have been near Sokkatd. In Hannah Kilham's Specimens of Languages spoken in Sierra Leone, we find the Appah and Tapua, both related to the Aku or Yoruba. The Tapua is evidently the Tappawa, or language of Ndfi (called Tappa by its inhabitants), and the Appah is perhaps the language of Abbi. One of the native itineraries appended to Dupuis' Residence in Ashantee (p. cxxix.), places Maury (M6ri) next to K6bi on the west.
-----------------
Fellitah= Fellatah = Fulani
Mouri/Mouli/Maulee/Malee/Moulee = Mali
Ntifi/Nufi/Ndfi = Nupe= Tapa/Tappa/Tapua
Abyou/Abbi = Abomey = Dahomey
Appah = Apah/Apa
Kanbari/Kombori = Kambari/Kyambari/Gambari
Sokkatd = Sokoto
K6bi = Kebbi

" The idea of royalty as regards both its internal principle and external form, is now in Yoruba precisely what it was five centuries ago in MaH; and this remarkable fact may perhaps justify the suspicion that the people of Mali originally issued from the country adjoining Bergu, Yoruba, and Dahomy, and wherein there now exists a Mohammedan, and probably a Mandingo state called Magho."
--------------------
Mah=Mali

Among the Mandingoes or other nations in Western Africa, no trace at present exists of the manners of Mali, or of the pompous forms of a great monarchy. But in Yoruba and Bergu, on the banks of the Quorra, we find absolute sovereigns, who axe approached with the same humiliating ceremonies above described. While the King sits richly clothed, and the musicians strain their efforts, the courtiers strip themselves to the waist, and bow their heads to the dust. In Bergu the King is followed by a troop of naked girls.
--------------------------
Bergu = Borgu
Quorra = Kuora/Kwara
The two are separated by River Kwara now called River Niger.

called Bend Ndmr^t d^l -^ Jb (Rec. de Voy. p. 7), or Wangamranah c JO !«,«;• (Not. et Extr. p. 647), or Ben6 Zammakhr^tah £l^^j Jb (MS. B.M. 113 v). It is plain that the text translated in the Not. et Extr. has been curtailed of the first two letters of the name, but if these be supplied, together with the dia- critic points, it agrees with the text of the Rec. de Voy. The name, therefore, will be Benii Nimr^tah, or Namr^L But who can be the negroes bearing such a name? Sultan Bello informs us, (Appendix to Denham and Clapperton^ Travels, vol. 11. p. 454) that the people of Yarba or Yoruba " originated from the remnants of the children of Canaan, who were of the tribe of Nimrod." The people of Yoruba therefore seem to be the Bend Ndmrit But to this it may be objected that Ndmrfit is not the correct Arabic mode of writing Nimrod. Truly not ; neither can the blacks of Yoruba, we verily believe, prove their descent from the great hunter. But the name and the historical tradition in this case are both equally spurious ; they were both probably suggested by a soimd — ^we think indeed, by the same sound, or, in other words, we believe that the name which was shaped into Benfi Ndmrit, and afterwards into Bend Nemrtid or descendants of Nimrod, belonged to the people of Yoruba.

prexios: Thanks so much for coming to my rescue here, i have learn a lot frolicking with calm and enlighten minds as yours sir, and i really hold all your perceptions with high esteem, in spite of my regular outbursts. Now i have become calmer and as you can see, robbing minds with folks like you seems to be paying off, i am becoming like a philosopher, like you folks.

Back in time, 1726-1729, Voltaire stayed in London after stirring the hornet at France, it was a bad time and hatred against the french in England was gathering storm, on a particular day, Voltaire was apprehended by angry English mob and he was going to be lynched. The man saved his own skin by saying to the English folks, "wasn't I been really cursed enough being a Frenchman" the Britons got dispersed one after the other. Voltaire saved his own skin.

Today, all the league of Europe has found a way over their differences, thanks to the spread of enlightenment. But no one can actually undermine the place of classical Greek as to the birth of the enlightenment, and that happened as a result of the fall of Byzantium to the Ottoman empire and the dispersal of some of her scholars.

today, we may hold to some of those things that make us different, it may not matter in time to come to the people that were to come, but little contributions from our generation as deem fit by each individual will make a difference before the good time cometh. Again, Baba methaphisique, thank you.

No problem my brother. Im young in physical age but very ancient in spirit and wisdom.

Read on the Yoruba archetypes and find yours, then assume attributes of its opposite and you will be fine with people generally. It works like magic!

kwangi: ^^
Impulse?
Defending? Culture?
Please don't project your predicament on me.

Who's defending culture you or me?
Its your thread, so you might wanna read it afresh.
Peace#

Kwangi,

Prexios has admitted his convinctions on this subject matter, nothing you say will convert him away from what he believes or thinks is true. However, in response to your feedback he agreed that he could have done better restraining the impulse to preach a sermon on how Yoruba is root to Igbo.

I have read all contributions here about the subject. Much as I respect prexios, I disagreed with him when he first expressed a desire on this issue and I urged him to open a thread. So maybe Im partly to blame for not giving wise consult. So I am asking you to please let this go and not turn this into a free for all confrontation. It will soon become that if you continue to stoke the embers.

prexios: The notion that Ile ife was the cradle of mankind was first recorded in the 1820s or so, by the Arokin of Oyo palace, according to Dr. Robin Law. if so, must we take it as gospel truth? i am sometimes careful, although this is like acting like "fifth-columnist" at cherished tradition of ones people, but truth need to be told, if you hold that position, it would ended up that you erode the labour and ingenuity of the founding father in a quest to beautify one city. You will lose interest in all others, killing all for one.

the Yoruba ancestral tradition talk of Aye, but we talk of Ife. only God know who is right.

But the Yoruba tradition seems to be saying something: we are said to be "omo araye" ara means brethren [of other people of the world], Araye also means ari-aye "people who discovered the place". Migration is under that illustration, and tha was the position of Ifa as well. Nonetheless, we are free to hold either view.

meanwhile, we are looking at aye-ati-jo that is, "aye and her contemporaries" or people like her. why should that be the basic or extent of Yoruba past? Why did they not insert Ife somewhere in all these traditions? The need to make Yoruba the source of creation should not erode the work of the ancient enterprise or labour.

Robin Law made a written record in 1820 of an account that predated 1820. The transmission was given orally by Arokin. Where did Arokin get it and for how long has this knowledge been with the Oyos?

We need to be very cautious and alert not to make advent of written record the beginning of our history.

If Nineveh is Ile Ife,
Could Eveh be Ife and are both a refrence to Eve?

If so Nineveh would be Eden, just as Ile Ife is believed to be cradle of mankind.

Let me stretch it even further, Tony said Eredo is Eridu, which is non-disputable, but could the Edi festival of Ife have a historical reference to the Eden of Eve?

prexios: i may not quickly conclude, but you know that you lean on the Lange Nineveh-version of Yoruba origin. that's not my angle, my own angle is that the Yoruba migration was not routed through Nineveh. It was routed through Arabia.

Arabia is a huge land. Where in Arabia?

Tony Spike: As far as I know Nineveh is one of the oldest cities around the Mesopotamian times. Another one of such cities, among the oldest categories I know of is, Eridu (renamed Eredo?) of Sumerian location. From Wikipedia, Nineveh means "House/Place of Fish". This transcription is actually Hebrew...

A further etymological research shows that Nineveh (Ninwe) is a combination of "Nun/Nin" which means "to increase/propagate" and "Naweh/Nawa" means "House/Place". This combined together gives us something like "House of Propagation/increase" or Ninwe.

Ile-Ife, on the other hand, means "House of Expansion". What do you think of these etymologies?

The two meanings are congruent. What does Eve mean?

Tony Spike: I think M signifies personality/life/water/knowledge. There's a thread I started on Bantu expansion which is still active. M is used to describe people, nations e.t.c. across Bantu Africa.

Emi
Omi
Ami
Imi
Omo
Amo
Imo

Tony,

All the materials im putting on this thread i had meant to locate in that handle you created. No worries I have just two months left and should be able to resume. Sorry about that.

A - the posessor, the instinct, the ONE, self sufficient, encompassing, total.

R - the prototype, origin, awareness, the owner.

B - reproduction, multiplier, generosity, expansion.

E - sustenance, support, equity, atone, conceal.

M - nurture, reveal, community, cleanse, rites.

------------------------

Ive wanted to ask you this, what is the connection between Ewe, Eveh (Nineveh), Ife and Eve?

If Eveh is named after Eve, then it would mean Nineveh is suggesting an abode for Eve. In the case where Nineveh is equivalent to Ile Ife it would be same as saying Ile Eve. If these theories are true, then Nineveh is where Eden was located and would support Yoruba creation story that Ile Ife is the cradle of mankind.

Any thoughts?

[quote author=tpia@]after considering this issue again, there seems to be a greek influence, as others have stated before.

possibly from before the 11th or 12th centuries, not certain.[/quote]There is not a Greek influence in Yoruba language. Let me us paint buckets to explain it.

We represent Egypt with Blue, Canaan with Red and Mesopotamia with Green.

We know Greek stepped into each of these buckets. In its different stages of civilization it was a collocator in Mesopotamia, Egypt and later Jerusalem.

Yoruba is a commonwealth of people who were raised from sister States, some came out of Green, plenty from Red and some from Blue.

So today we look in Yoruba and we see that its Green matches the Green in Greek/Latin/Roman... Does this mean the Green was transplanted or donated by Greek?