₦airaland Forum

OJODEL10: PLEASE WHAT IS THE MEANING OF OGIDAN

9jacrip: Bro,

I'm not in anyway trying to block the AfroAsia link if there's any, infact, it will make for an interesting read really. Neither am I against any religion. You do not seem to understand my stand point - there has to be some form of corroboration of both sides. If Yoruba claims to have come from whereever, the people of that whereever who are notorious for keeping records would corroborate the claim no matter how minute the evidence they put forward, do you get my point?

The dating of when Islam got to Mecca, Oduduwa, Lamuru/Nimrod all just do not add up and this is what the books you referred to me are poiting to. It is only right I ask questions and if they are not answerable, I throw the theory out the window.

Besides I suppose carbon dated artefacts have been found in Ife which pre-dates Muhammed/Islam? For example, the Opa Oranmiyan in Ife far pre-dates Oduduwa/Oranmiyan era, are we going to then say ghosts occupied Ife and built the obelisk?

The same you said about America known for keeping record is applicable to AfroAsia people and technically the Arabs which your books point to. They are known for chronicles. The books painted a major event in their history, it is only right they have some form of record connecting the dots. We can't keep 'famzing', so to speak and they're not 'co-signing' it.

Fastforward to Asara - going by the dates of these kingdoms/empires. Assyria had existed before Islam/Muhammed? If yes, how is it Asara was used to name Assyria? Bro, I follow history in a chronoligical order and these is why your premise seems to keep falling apart with me. Except you're then saying we should do away with available dates and just presume and assume away?

I would appreciate nothing more than an intelligent approach but with premise that holds water. We don't want to distort history all in the bid to prove we're from AfroAsia. And as I've said before, except you just want to break down names, accents, tongues, sounds that sound similar to connect dots which I do not know anything about.

My point is: the books you based on last 2 arguments on pointed towards Islam/Mecca/Oduduwa/Lamurudu-Nimrod and the periods these notable occurrences took place/existed do not merge enough to make the thesis of Arab migration possible. If we go by this, then can we just completely debunk Arab theory completely? And since you've spread your location to the whole of AfroAsia, sir that is a massive work and there has to be some form of concrete corroboration between both sides and we're not just going to coin names and sounds and quickly weld them to prove one migrated from the other.

Really, I'm close minded to your theory, maybe you should just school me and other interested parties because I will keep taking you round and round and it might become frustrating and I never ever want to shoot down your approach, it is a beautiful one really.

I wish you all the best sir.
Cheers.

Andre Uweh: Hausa and Fulani people-Hausa-Fulani.
I think there should not be only Hausa-Fulani in Nigeria. There should also be Yoruba-Fulani as found in Ilorin, Igbo-Ijaw as found in Bonny and Opobo, Yoruba-Ijaw as found in Ilaje area.

9jacrip:
Most logical and reasonable argument put forward thus far (and ever on the Yoruba and Arab/Mecca connection)
The key thing to note is - migration from Mecca was in relation to OYO which was the only place/people referred as Yoruba originally.
The above clearly throws the Mecca/Oduduwa/Ile-Ife overboard.

Thank you PhysicsQED - A very obvious and in-your-face point that has been evasive to me. I wonder why I have never connected the dots to arrive at this beautiful proposition.

olumidaie: Mahin is a part of the Ilajes. That is where I am from. Ugbo is another part. They preceeded the Mahins to the coast. But the Mahins later dominated the whole of Ilaje; thats the reason you see olden maps indicating the whole coastal south of Ondo as MAHIN.

In Ilaje, there are 4 principal clans(including Mahin and Ugbo), and 4 smaller polities. There is no big difference between "Ilaje" and "Mahin" aside one is the larger Umbrella; while the latter is just a part of the clan.

As for the "minor-dialects", it abound every where in Yoruba land. To an extent, Ibadan(ki ni sho. Lol) sound a little different to the Oyo proper dialect: likewise Ogbomoso, Ilorin, Ofa and other Ibolo towns. Even a slight difference abound in Epe-Ijebu/ Ikorodu-Ijebu and Ijebu-Igbo and Remo-Ijebu. Also the same for the Egba and Ekiti towns and clans. WE ARE ALL ILAJE.

The Ugbo-Igbo(aborigines) link is an hoax. The Ugbos got their name from a different reason. I would go back to check it. The Igbo group are not likely Yorubas. A pure descendant of the group still reside in Ife. He is a chief and his great-great-infinite-grand father was appointed by Oduduwa. Their language is different like lizard for example. I have forgotten, but one hitorian/ inner person close to him posted it one Wikipedia(even though Wikipedia isn't reliable for African history). I would try to get back the Info for you.

9jacrip: This was part of my dissertation.
Although, I did not broaden up on it since it would mean deviating from the subject matter.
From the little knowledge I have - the people who took Ife captive were Ugbo, not 'Igbo' - but it has gradually become corrupted to Igbo. When Moremi returned to Ife with plan on how to defeat them which was implemented, some of them were captured and detained in Ife but the descendant were allowed to settle and are called 'Oluyare' and a chief called Obawinrin.

When next I go home, I'd probably create time to visit the compound to conduct an interview.

I would love to read more on this people if you have information on them.

Maybe when next I go home I visit the family compound to see what information I can find.

OAM4J: I lived part of my early life at Ijebu Ode, and there was this annual festival they used to have then (I dont know if they still do it) it was done in remembrance of one of the Ijebus' greatest herbalist, cant remember his name now (his family compound was just 3 buildings away from where I lived). According to what I heard then, there used to be a river that connected River Ogun to another river at Epe and the river passed through Ijebu Ode.

Annually, the river overflew its bank and destroyed thousands of lives and properties and after consultations from many places; in other to appease the goddess of this river the herbalist had to sacrifice his life. I heard he sailed with a special mat on the river till he was out of sight and days following the big river dried up. I was shown a trace of the river-pathway which was a big gully at the time filled with refuse dumps.

If this account is true, it might answer some of your questions. I know they celebrate Yemoja festival in Ijebu Ode back in the days too.

9jacrip: At the first bolded: this is what I'm saying. Different oral history from different souces - some detailed, some not so detailed due to overtime embellishments or how well our sources are privy to information. You not ever hearing oduduwa engaged Obatala/ife in conflict shows you need to do more findings because if we begin to go in the line of core oral history then I'm afraid there are/would be so many things you have never heard that you would start fighting and protesting against as you have done so far.

When did Olubuse discuss oral history as being fulfillment of prophecy with you? And who are your sources of oral history? Oduduwa family compound? Ile Olorisa? Obameri compound? Or at least regular Ife indegenes?

If you have not gone to gone to ife to do a one on one interview with either of this compound heads with regards to Oduduwa advent then permit me to completely fault your claims and ask you to speak less on it because you are apparently distorting history.

If saburi, akinjogbin, falola, ade-ajayi classed yoruba history as spirituality then we might as well not have historiography on Yoruba - abi you would have preferred we continue to propagate oral history that is fast withering away in this new age of 'westernization' where most people do not want to be attached to culture, which they think is barbaric?

9jacrip: I saw it on the other thread while on my phone but I'll post a reply here since the other thread appears hijacked.



Going by the excerpt quoted above, then you would agree I've raised this point (though I did not go into details) which Mr Macof kept shouting down and I keep wondering why. In a nutshell, I mentioned there were settlements in Ife before Oduduwa came which he conquered and appeared to have unified and urshered Ife into a new political dawn 'Ooniship'. I mentioned points related to the excerpts you provided in my earlier posts on this thread.


@ the red-bolded: I still find it hard to connect the Ugbo/Ilaje's invasion and taking Ife people as captives with the Oduduwa's obaship. Reason being this Ilaje's terrorist act came very much later when Ile-Ife had become cohesive and issue of Obatala/Oduduwa long gone. Ilaje was said to have left around 10th C, while Offa was said to have been founded in 14th C. (http://www.ilajecwa.org.uk/history.htm and http://oduna.org/platform/content/history-offa). If these periods are anything to go by, would it then mean Ugbos have continued to raid Ife for captives for many centuries? If it was during Oranmiyan's period - Oyo was founded around 14th C too, when when did the Oyo Prince Olafagangan leave to found Offa? I wrote a dissertation on Edi Festival in Ife-Ife(Moremi's heroic act and the festival in rememberance). The people I interviewed couldn't state specifically which of the Oonis was on seat during Ugbo raids, plus, I do not think it has anything to do with Oduduwa usurping power.

Further at the red-bolded: The Ugbo/Moremi is Edi festival which has nothing to do with Itapa festival (Obatala, Oduduwa, Obameri, Oramfe, Yemoo etc). They are far apart and not connected. Please do not confuse it.

From the above, there are so many histories lost in pre-oduduwa and Oduduwa's era which I wouldn't like for us to mix-up.

I would love to look into the Agboniregun's issue with you.

9jacrip: @Metphysical:

Thank you for your input and I'm glad you caught my drift.

'Yoruba history and culture can never be narrated accurately based strictly on logic and analytical premise'. That excerpt from your post is beautiful and I'm of that school of thought as regards Yoruba history but then, this is Nairaland, discussions of such nature can only be looked at from logic and analytical premise. Reason being that, to deviatte from that would mean saturating the internet/NL/readers with myths which could easily be disproved or brushed to one side AND in order to really discuss Yoruba history from the angle you have posited then one would have to dig into Ifa and 'awo' knowledge, both which are jealously guarded - I would not in a bid to share Yoruba history divulge things of such nature over the internet and even if you and I did, the history of Yoruba embedded within Ifa corpus still requires 'logic and analytical premise' because an average Joe would find it difficult to tear apart and put together a chant from an Odu which tells a history, do you catch my drift? An example of a discourse where Ifa was analyzed in a bid to connect the dots is https://www.nairaland.com/1362494/yoruba-origin-history-canaanland-connection w

If you read my post, I'm not debunking oral history - taani Baba mi ti ma fi wa fi owo wor itan aroba si egbe kan? All I've been trying to do is to connect this oral histories to give a reasonable view. Mr Macof who's bent on oral history has been touting incomplete and embellished version of history from a previous page and that is another problem. Most do not know the full/complete oral history and if we begin to look into it, our history would rather become smeared and distorted rather than factual and cohesive.

I hope I've made some sense.

Katsumoto: Reproduced from the original thread.

@ 9jacrip & macof


A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under Obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (Obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and Obatala.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race
American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’


But in the absence of reading those books (It is almost impossible to find that Akinjogbin book today), please see below.


‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘Obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, Obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/



So to settle the debate between 9jacrip and macof – there are two accounts which are intertwined.
1. A cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to Obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with Obatala creating man - macof
2. A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating Obatala (who may have also been Oreluere). This account is strengthened by the abandonment of Ife by the Ugbo (Ilaje/Mahin) but who later resort to guerilla tactics to retake Ife. I believe this ties in with the Moremi legend. It also fits in perfectly with the Itapa festival that is celebrated in Ife. - 9jacrip

Thank you to both of you. I have had to revert to old books for this which has provided some clarity for me. I have often wondered why Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife.

Niger: Artist is a famous Zarma (Songhai) group from Niger, I forget their names, and have a hard time understanding this song because it is in a Songhai dialect:

PeterKbaba: O = Water
M= Mi = Living
Om = OMI = Water + Living = Living Water

O= Water / Saliva
U=WU = WUN = Sound
Ou= OWUN= Saliva + Sound= Living Sound

E= Spirit / Soul
M= Mi = Living
EM = EMI = Spirit / Soul + Living = Living Spirit.

E= Spirit / Soul
D= Create
A= Man = Woman
EDA = E+D+A = Spirit Create Man/Woman

I= Process / Bring About
W = Brings About / Response
A= Man = Woman
IWA= Process that brings about a behavior (seen / portrayed) in/by a man

ODUDUWA= O+D+U+D+U+W+A =
Water / Saliva + Create + Sound + Create + Sound + Brings About = Behavior + Man / Woman

Therefore if O (Water/Saliva) can bring about U(Sound) through our mouth, we can say W (Process = Brings About / Response) the U ( Sound) from the O( Water/Saliva)

So,
Water / Saliva (O) that Create (D * 2) Sound (U*2) that Brought About the Process / Response / Behaviour(W) of Man=Woman

So,
ODUDUWA is both Talking about the Process that lead to the Creation of Man, the Process that made Man Speak and the Behaviour (Seen or Portrayed) In / By a Man.

ODUDUWA is the total package of creation, that is why nimrod held on to it also before the division of languages at the tower of babel, people held of to it during the time nineveh was destroyed, when Kemet was conquered and now the birth of ile ife.

prexios: Thank God you are back. tpia had been questioning my interpretation to wit. I don't know what to do. it's deja vu all over again, he was expectant of Jim Iyke in prexios shadow.sukeee. i am delivered by geez. i feel so much better now, the moderator has come. Welcome.