₦airaland Forum

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]Salat is prayer.

it has nothing to do with "salute".[/quote]You answered Salat, now give answer for Salute.

TerraCotta: I don't see any reason for doing this so I would have to decline. What does Ile-Ife, Oduduwa and Yoruba have to do with Israel? Possibly even less than they have to do with Arabia.



Again, these are two separate philosophical and religious traditions. In my view, Genesis and the Bible (and by extension, the Qu'ran and Torah) are no more applicable to understanding precolonial Yoruba history and culture than Hindu scriptures or Chinese history. If Nigeria had been colonized by Buddhists and Hindus, we would likely see attempts to derive Nigerian cultural history from these traditions as well.

I didnt ask for relations between the two cultures, but you cannot separate Yoruba from humanity. Nature is founded in the principles of duality and paired opposites. Arabs and Jews can tell you where theirs is from. Where is Yoruba's from and are there manuscripts that establishes that order? I know you will say Ifa in response to that, to which you can bet I will open a can of worms and start comnecting piece by piece elements between Ifa and the Jewish scripture.

Pagan,

I observed that you have a knack for challenging people to prove this Meccan tradition and Yoruba beginnings in it. I have sidelined you and avoided in the past from taking you on that challenge, but not anymore.

I studied your posts, you are an expert, or close to being one, on the Yarub and Himyar clans, and generally you appear to be very familiar and well read on the history of Arabia and the pre-Islamic age. Most other people here do not have that exposure and its difficult for them to connect concepts related to nonIslamic Arabian culture. Similar to how people think every Ibrahim from the North is Muslim, they also think everything Arabian is Islam. So you will be the ideal channell through which I may afterall connect the dots between Yoruba worship and Meccan traditions and prove that it is unique, as opposed to universal.

For a start, using your understanding or expertise on the Arabian culture and English words and customs I would like you to tell us if "Salute" in English language is a cognate for "Salat" in Arabic.

Terracota,

Would it be a stretch to ask that you pair your subjects in the response above with characters in the Bible and see if there's a match?

The depiction of Oduduwa as a male and female gender has similitude with the Biblical narration of Adam in Genesis and wherewith before he had finished his work on Adam GOD declared: ...and Male and Female we created him.

In rdference to Ejiwapo, Genesis equally present a model for duality. Everything in the creation is ordered in pair opposite.

I had a different bone of contention to pick with you on veracity and timelines of records but Im applying the same discretion here as I did with Katsumoto and standing down with open mindedness and for the benefit of the collective as 740 has rightly called for.

740megawatts,

I saw what you wrote in previous page and I will let it go. My issues with his biased position are less important than the gains if I remain open minded and reflect on his contributions, but he (katsumoto) still owe me an explanation of where the strange Oduduwa came from. If Oduduwa is not an AfroAsian as I believe he is, and which Katsumoto dismisses, Mr Katsumoto or someone else in his camp owe us a verifiable link to Oduduwa's known origin. Unless we are to embrace the myth and say he originated from heaven and was droppeddown a chain into our midst . Im sure we all have issues with that.

Katsumoto: Have you even read Samuel Johnson's book? If you had, you would have read Johnson claim that Sultan Bello's account in Hugh Clapperton's book is his source. Read page 5 of Johnson's book. You are here pontificating aimlessly. You won't state your claim; instead you are trying to string others along so as to arrive at your conclusion. Well, I don't analyse in that manner. So it will not work for me.

Why do you have to speak for me? At what point did I tell you I have respect for Sultan Bello? And how did I hold Bello, the Alaafin, or Johnson in contempt? Simply because I refuse to believe the Arabian tales? I am un-learned in Yoruba wisdom!!!! I worship penmanship!!!! You reek of conjure and assumptions. Did I tell you I was Yoruba, Chinese, or Mongolian? Stick to the debate and stop personalizing it.

You are free to hold onto your thoughts as I am free to do as well. I am not here to convince you or anyone for that matter. I am simply putting across my OWN opinion and analysis. I clearly stated it as such in that post. The only people who hold on to inconsistent Arabian tales are Muslims because it feeds into their religious fantasy of pre-ordination. Yoruba pagans and Christians do not believe such tales.

All you seem to do is conjecture; when will you at least reference a source? At least I am explaining my position and providing the sources to support it. I provided references to support my belief that Oduduwa was a foreigner but not that he was from Arabia. Lay out your own hypothesis and provide your sources. Enough of this unnecessary obfuscation.

Two things:

1. Where did Bello get the message from? He at least admitted he was not the origin of the knowledge.

2. You do not dispute, based on your numerous references (im glad you now call them references and not proofs or facts), that Oduduwa is foreign. Where he is from,? Any reference, thought, knowledge, theories, suggestions will help.

Beside all that, Im an independent thinker and have my own style of theorizing based on what is "realistic" and "truthfully" verifiable.

We are looking for the origin of eba and we know people all over the world eat carbohydrates but cassava is not universally available, even more intriguing, eba is a native dish. So if we find that a land in latin America eats eba...well, its worth looking into to see what connects that land with natives in Nigeria. We cant just dismiss it as some of you are wont to do that because nutritionists have studied it and said there is no connection, therefore its a mere coincidence.

I am not a linguist or etymologist, but based on my gifted ability to understand tongue and the connection between sound, letters and usage, if Iwere one I would be a world renowned. I can explain in Yoruba sounds that most linguists have no definition for.

On the issue of society and legend generally, I want you to reflect upon what Homer represent in the European classics and how the knowledge of him shapes their society wholesale. Reflect upon what Camelot means to the American.

Katsumoto: Thank you for a very detailed response.

So before I start, let me state that what I will produce below is based on my analysis of books written by eminent Yoruba historians and philosophers such as Akinjogbin, Wande Abimbola, Babatunde Lawal, books from non Yoruba such as William Bascom, John Peel, etc and written accounts by the Bini. I have read Samuel Johnson’s book very well and while I believe it is the most authentic and complete source of Yoruba history, I don’t buy his version of Yoruba origins. I don’t because it is based on the version as narrated by Sultan Bello to Hugh Clapperton which also feeds into migration of Oduduwa from the Middle East.

Katsumoto,

You believe everything Johnson said about Yoruba until the point where, according to you, there was a remote association with the Sultan and Mecca. That Islamic component in the story is an issue for you, [even though Johnson never said his claim was based on Bello's narration..but whereas Bello acknowledged he was only a middleman and the message was told to him].

Now, no one of us know who Johnson is but we have familiarity and respect for him because of his work. None of us know who Sultan Bello is but we have familiarity and respect for him because of his position. We know who Alaafin Adeyemi II is and we hold respect and reverence for his position we trust in his authority. Yet these people are held in contempt by you simply because their story connects with Islam and Mecca. I want you to reflect on what you posted about Islam In Yorubaland..here it is,

In the absence of providing quotes from Patrick Ryan's Book (Yoruba Participation in the Muslim Tradition), please read the following:'Islam came to Yoruba land centuries before Christianity, and before churches were built, Yoruba came in contact with Islam around 14th and 15th during the reign of Mansa Kankan Musa of Mali Empire. According to Al-Aluri, the first Mosque was built in Ọyọ-Ile in 1550 A.D. 

Who is Patrick Ryan and what is his authority? Who is Al Aluri, what is our familiarity with him? How do these people become facts? If you can believe these two unknown writers on history of Yorubaland, then I take it you will find the works of Sheikh Abdullah Al Ilori illustrative.

What makes Ryam and Aluri become facts? Just because they published "thoughts" does not in any way give them authenticity. I take it you worship writings and are easily enamored with fanciful penmanship, whoever the author maybe, just as long they are not muslims.

You need Jesus man!

Yoruba origins has two parts – First, a cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with obatala creating man (American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy); Second, A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating obatala. Yoruba mythology is no different to Roman or Greek mythology. They are steeped in legend. Oduduwa being a woman, Oduduwa climbing down chains to get to earth are all Yoruba mythological tales. This view was carried orally for centuries until historians started to dig into a more realistic version of Yoruba history.

Define "realistic". My friend you read Yoruba literature but you are un-learned in Yoruba wisdom.

I want you to define realistic and the archetypes of reality.

You see this is what Ive preached against all along..people that read in order to stockpile reference points and sources which they bring online to intimidate and lord authority over less guarded souls.

I do not believe Oduduwa was Yoruba based on written accounts by Yoruba historians such as Toyin Falola and Isola Olomola. A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and obatala. The battle between Oduduwa and Obatala is staged annually at Ife.

These are great writers and you will never hear any of them say what they have written is factual and proven. They are cautious to label it "thoughts"; "beliefs"; "traditions"; "suggestions"; "customs"; "observations"; and so on.

Everyone of these writers attest to the truth that Oduduwa is a foreigner. The question then is, where is his roots?

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’

Where did he and his colonizing party come from?

TerraCotta: Katsumoto--you've done an excellent job of explaining the objections many people have to this fanciful idea deriving Yoruba culture from Islamic traditions. It is a puzzling and generally meaningless pursuit for non-Muslims, and I think ethical and objective Muslim readers would find it full of holes as well. It doesn't matter how many times you point the fallacies though; people will continue to filter their ancestral origins and cultures through the lens of their imported religion of choice. Thankfully, the vast majority of reputable scholars on Yoruba history and culture do not give any credence to this theory.

One small quibble I had with your statement that "Yoruba did not start with Oduduwa". I've said it on Nairaland and elsewhere several times that the myth of a wandering Oduduwa who landed at Ife from some foreign shores seems likely to be a 20th century invention, possibly inspired by Judeo-Christian/Islamic adherents (similar to some in this thread) who wished to find prestigious Middle Eastern origins for their culture. I don't want the post to be lengthy so I'll keep my references to sources short, but I can provide them for people who are interested. To my knowledge, the overwhelming amount of "historical" references to a male king who settled in Ife from "somewhere else" named Oduduwa and who had 7 or 16 sons (take your pick) that he sent out to the rest of the Yoruba-speaking world are from relatively late 20th century sources. This is not to say that the myth did not exist; there are theatrical combat festivals in Ife which have been interpreted as memorializing the "war" between the Obatala and Oduduwa "factions". I question the interpretations in light of the fact that virtually every reference to Oduduwa/Odua/Oduwa before Reverend Johnson's "History of the Yoruba" depicts Oduduwa as a woman, most often the wife of Obatala, and often another term for "Ile", the earth. In some cases, it appears that mythical combat between light and dark, or between urban civilization and the forest, have been misinterpreted as historical battles between human personae. The name "Oduduwa" is given a fairly straightforward translation in these older sources as well--"Odu Iwa", a cognate term to "Olu Iwa (modern "Oluwa" ) since "Odu" is an older Yoruba term for a chief, a potentate, or a large container, like a calabash. Similarly, these early chroniclers follow Bishop Ajayi Crowther in describing Oduduwa as one half of a calabash, the other being Obatala. The juxtaposition of Obatala (translation: "leader of the white cloth/whiteness" ) and Oduduwa (meaning something like "leader/regent of blackness/existence" ) adds a logical appeal to this myth.

This description is consistent from the earliest recorded references I'm aware of (in Bishop Crowther's 1851 dictionary), through the various other missionaries and expedition reports to R.E. Dennet's "Nigerian Studies". As late as the 1950s, Geoffrey Parrinder was told by the Alaketu and his advisors in that ancient Yoruba kingdom that Oduduwa was a woman. It's not a minor point to stress, since Ketu is often cited as one of the oldest kingdoms derived from Ife. Ketu was also somewhat isolated from the modernizing trends going on Nigerian historiography during the late colonial period, when literate Yoruba scholars were reading Reverend Johnson's book and re-distributing it's point of view as the "official" history of the Yorubas. It is unlikely that the Alaketu (who supplied the information) would have been as aware of Reverend Johnson's book, living as he did in a Francophone town removed from Nigerian political developments which may have shaped 20th-century reinterpretations of Oduduwa's identity. It is why I find the fantastic stories of Oduduwa's "journey" from Mecca, Egypt, northeastern Nigeria--and most recently Benin--to be highly unlikely, and supported by little more than the religious and ethno-political motivations of the day.

Since Reverend Johnson's book got published in 1921, the tide has changed and virtually all modern discussions about Oduduwa center on the idea that "he" was a man and a foreigner of some sort to Ile-Ife. This idea may have its own appeal to modern sensibilities, but it does not seem to be supported in the older documentation. "Yoruba"--if we take that to mean the people who point to Ile-Ife as their cultural homeland and who speak the related dialects of the same language--did start with Oduduwa, since the oldest depictions we have access to suggest that Oduduwa was a mythological Earth mother who gave birth to this culture. These are just my thoughts though--I like to hear other informed perspectives.

It is interesting that what you shared here is not in writing and cannot be proven, but you clarified it as your thoughts..or suspicions, given other factors that lend credence to it. Right?

What then is the problem that other thoughts in contradiction of your position must be asked to provide proof, facts and when they dont they are labeled conjectures.

Can you prove your thoughts up there? Im sure not, neither are any facts available specific to the conclusion you surmised. Yet, honestly, it is logical, even though I do not suvscribe to it.

There are many sides to it and each side should erect its theories..but you guys on the indigeneous theory somehow are intimidated by the advocates of the foreign footsteps and it shows in your response. This is the problem I have with you all, not that your theories are not legitimate, your attempt to assert authority on the subject of origin is hugely Eurocentric and unacceptable.

Katsumoto: Mischief from me. You are the one talking about events that are not recorded and then saying I am ignorant of events that you acknowledge are not recorded. You claim Sango read the Quran. Where is the record of this?

You can not use conjecture to convince people. The basis of your position is religious fantasy. I never claimed to be an authority on any subject. What I seek from you is verifiable evidence that Islam was present in Yorubaland pre-Sango (since you allege someone must have helped Sango read the Quran).

And don't put words in my mouth (figuratively speaking), I never stated that Jihadists used Risk Assessment. The presence of Muslims in Oyo does not mean there were Jihadists there.

Can we stick to facts and ignore the rest of the conjectural bunkum? Please

Did Mali invade Oyo? No
Did Mali invade other parts of West Africa - Yes, Northern Ghana
Did Fulani invade Oyo? First, to sack Oyo with the aid of Yoruba chiefs. And second, were defeated at Oshogbo by the Ibadans.
Did Sango read Quron? We don't know but most probably not
When was Islam accepted in Yorubaland - 17th - 18th centuries


In the absence of providing quotes from Patrick Ryan's Book (Yoruba Participation in the Muslim Tradition), please read the following:

'Islam came to Yoruba land centuries before Christianity, and before churches were built, Yoruba came in contact with Islam around 14th and 15th during the reign of Mansa Kankan Musa of Mali Empire. According to Al-Aluri, the first Mosque was built in Ọyọ-Ile in 1550 A.D. [size=14pt]although, there were no Yoruba Muslims[/size], the Mosque only served the spiritual needs of foreign Muslims living in Ọyọ.
Progressively, Islam came to Yoruba land, and muslims started building Mosques:
Iwo town led, its first Mosque built in 1655; followed by Iṣẹyin, in 1760; Lagos, 1774; Ṣaki, 1790; and Oṣogbo, 1889. In time, Islam spread to other towns, like Oyo (the first Oyo convert was Solagberu), Ibadan, Abẹokuta, Ijẹbu-Ode, Ikirun and Ẹdẹ; even before Sokoto jihad.
Several factors contributed to the rise of Islam in Yoruba land by mid 19th century. Before the decline of Ọyọ, several towns around it had large Muslim communities; unfortunately, when Ọyọ was destroyed, these Muslims (Yoruba and immigrants) relocated to newly formed towns and villages and became Islam protagonists.
Second, there was mass movement of people at this time into Yoruba land, many of these immigrants were Muslims who introduced Islam to their host. According to Eades, the religion “differed in attraction” and “better adapted to Yoruba social structure, because it permitted polygamy”; more influential Yoruba like (Seriki Kuku of Ijebu land) soon became Muslims with positive impact on the natives.'

http://yorupedia.com/subjects/yoruba-religion/islam/

'Professor Abdulfatah started his lecture by giving history of the advent of Islam in Southern Nigeria. He said, contrary to what some historians say that Islam reached South West Nigeria in 17th century, the professor explained that the advent of Islam in Southern Nigeria particularly the Yoruba land is traced back to 14th century from Mali during the era of Mansa Musa of Mali empire; at the time the Yoruba called Islam as Isemali ie the religion of Mali.'

http://www.islamicmovement.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=613:islam-in-southern-nigeria&catid=41:frontpage


These are the facts; there is no need for religious fantasy when there are recorded facts to provide guidance. You are most likely a Muslim and are holding on to some kind of fallacy to serve your fantasies.

What makes all these references facts? Is it because it is published in writing and therefore it is fact?

If you see where it is said that Sango read the Quran will you become a believer?

Katsumoto: 1. We are now in the 21st century. No Oba should be arguing for supremacy. Oramiyan wasn't the only child of Oduduwa and Oduduwa himself wasn't the progenitor of the Yoruba people. The Ifa corpus existed before Oduduwa and it is the guiding consult for Yoruba people. Ife being the home of Ifa leads it it to be the spiritual home of the Yoruba. Oyo derived supremacy through military conquest between the 16th and 18th century. It had no relevance after the death of Alaafin Aole and in all fairness, most likely after the reign of Alaafin Abiodun. Oyo was a spectator when the major Yoruba kingdoms of the 19th century battled themselves to a draw. In terms of political relevance, no one is more superior to the other. In terms of spirituality, Ife is superior to others. One can argue that the Western region government elevated the Ooni in the 20th century but one can also argue that the British elevated an irrelevant Oyo kingdom when treaties were being signed at the end of the 19th century.

2 & 3. This is a lot of conjecture and not grounded in any fact. Who said there were Muslim jihadists in Oyo? History tells us they were traders. What book did you read that states all Muslims were Jihadists or that the ones in Oyo were jihadists. Malian traders started to go to Oyo after the time of Mansa Musa, who was the richest man in the world at the time. He, like other malians at the time, were traders. Could they have been traders and jihadists at the same time?

I am sticking with the facts; you are the one conjecturing. Jihad in Islam had a creed, if this creed is sacrosanct, why didn't the Muslims take back the Iberian Peninsula after being expelled in the 14th century? Why didn't this Muslims take the Bornu-Kanem empire? Why didn't this Muslims return to take Yorubaland after the defeat at Oshogbo? What was even the point of taking Bornu? Heck, where were the Jihadists of the ottomans during the first and second world wars? You give too much importance to Jihadists and their actions. You make it seem like all Jihads were successful. You say it is amazing that Sango read the Quran, who says that is a fact? Certainly not oral or written history. It is only in the minds of those who are bent in romantic religious fantasy. If Sango read the Quran, why didn't the other Alaafins read the Quran? Was Oyo a powerful state during the time of Sango? How far did Oyo's influence go during Sango's time? It is possible Sango was given a Quran but that is mere conjecture.

Touching of head and kneeling is not conclusive evidence of a link between Yoruba and Islam. We are all from the same source and are bound to have to some similarities. If you are so bent on making this point, what is it's relevance? Did Islam derive from Yoruba? We know that is not true. Did Yoruba derive from Islam, we also know that not to be true. I am still waiting for you to make your point; what is the point of all this conjecture? And when you make your point, please provide the facts. Do not mix facts with conjecture and then expect everyone else to accept the conjecture.

This is all orbital dance demanding over and again to provide what I already admitted its impossible to prove in an oral transmission society.

On 1, yes it is 21st century, succeeding Presidents in America bash one another all the time. What has the era got to do with political conflict? It doesnt matter if its 13th century or 30th century, political feuds are what they are, time does not mature the conflicts.

My point on the issue is a emphasis that, inspite of that conflict, they are united in where Yoruba originated from. If you say Alaafin is biased towards Arabia because he is Muslim, I already told you Ooni is a member of the inner order of the Anglican Church. These two authorities are consistent on where Yoruba root is, inspite of their political disagreement and their different faiths. If you ask for this fact I will refer you to the narrations published by John Wyndham in which a former Ooni and Araba shared this information. You know what publication Im talking about - Myths of Ife.
Its interesting you said Ifa is the Yoruba manuscript and scripture. Well, Araba is its steward.

On 2 and 3. I see your mischief rising to the surface! Go ahead and label me a jihadist, in addition to other things you already charged me with.

Nonetheless, as I said, admit when you have no knowledge and dont feign authority on subjects you are not grounded in. All those merry go rounds about Iberian Peninsula and Kanem and Mansa Musa is all smoke screen you are using to mask your lack of understanding. To clarify, I will ask you again.

You said Malians had a mosque in Oyo and they were Yorubas first contact with Islam. I m asking, going by Alaafin (an authority on Yoruba history and timeline) claim that Sango read the Quran, this would have put the Yoruba/Islam contact at a much earlier era than the Malian footprint, considering Sango was Alaafin around 13th century, and in a supposedly pagan society, who was responsible for aiding his reading or understanding of the Quran? Whoever that was would be the first contact and the timeline you gave of Malian can be revised. Of note, Sango's influence in expanding the Empire cannot be ignored.

So far you have given two unacceptable answers
1. That Alaafin is religiously biased.
2. That Jihadis used risk assessment to test their target.

Its a simple question but your incessant fact consuming mind has beclouded your ability to address it simply.


On universality of traditions and acts of worship, I wil reserve my answer to you. You will get it when Pagan 9ja returns with his top 10 list.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]There is no common footprint.

islam is derived partly from the old Arab religion. Most of the rituals are the same as the pre-islamic era. Even the Hindus do ritual abolution, etc., before prayer.
Even Hindus circambulate their shrines 8-time (more or less) depending on the deity ,etc.
Even Hindus bow before their Gods.


All Pagan Religions are connvected by a thin cord. it is how we were made by the Gods.

it can be considered a miracle, bu there is no direct relationship or necessary contact.[/quote]Thank You!! Now, stay on that thought..

Islam has many pillars and traditions, I hope you are familiar with them. Give us top 10 listing of articles of Islamic faith borrowed from pre Islamic Arab. We will go around the globe and test their universality and see where we find traces of these old practice.

Over to you..

Katsumoto: 1. I am familiar with the oral process of keeping records in Yorubaland. My point was that if there is no mischief and these means of recording history is infallible, then there shouldn't be any controversies between the Alaafin and the Ooni. If there oral histories are accurate and factual, then everything should be clear to them and everyone else with access to the Oral history. What is the point of extolling the sacrosanctity or Oral history when the two leading authorities are at odds with one another over its accuracy?

First, thanks for clarifying and setting my understanding straight.

I like that you are current on these matters. The root of this feud was the politics of Western Nigeria. It has nothing to do with the origin of the race. Ooni Aderemi should not have been choosen or given recognition as the political head of the race. Ife is spiritual heart of Yoruba but Oyo is its political seat of power and Alaafin should have had the Premiership. On the issue of Chairmanship of Obas, the beaded crowns belong to Ife, seat of Oduduwa.

Political meddleness by people untutored in the heirarchies led to conferrement of both positions on Ooni and started this feud. Add to that the fact the two are personally incompatible. Alaafin wanted the Chairmanship rotated between Oyo and Ife but Ife refused.

Their problem center around whether Oranmiyan was an Ooni as well as an Alaafin and which bloodline is entitled to Supremacy over the land and its crowns.


2.

There are a lot of wrong assumptions here. The invasion of a state by another state is predicated on the belief that the invading state can defeat the state it is invading. That Fulani tried and failed to invade Bornu does not mean that it will try to invade Oyo. That the Malians invaded the moon does not mean it can invade Saturn. The malians and Fodio did not attempt to take Oyo by force because they couldn't. This is not the time to start prevaricating. How do you know that Fodio could have stopped Fulani aggression on Oyo? And what was Fulani aggression? Did the Fulani take Ilorin through aggression or could they have sacked Oyo ile without the assistance of Oyo chiefs who either looked away (Prince Atiba and Adegun the Onikoyi) or laid seige to Oyo (Lanloke of Agodo)? Or was it not Afonja's troops that were used to sack Oyo Ile? Were the Fulani not defeated at Oshogbo in 1840 by the Ibadans? I don't care what the Muslims did in other places, lets not start to speculate about why they didn't sack Oyo. Simple fact is that they didn't.

Oh trust me, I do not belittle the might of Oyo and neither am I assigning any super prowess and gallantry to jihadists who invaded and brought other Empires down.

In all of that, what explains cohabitation of Muslim jihadists in the capital city of pagans?

In fact, they warred Kanem and took portions of their territories from them, they had mind to sackthe Mai if they got to his capital, which they did not succeed in.

This had nothing to do with risk assessment of their target's power. Jihadi in Islam has its own creed, it is a separate tradition on its own and the fighters do not view their victories in battle as a human feat. The indoctrination trains invicibility. You are super-imposing the Western idea of warfare and assessment on a Jihadi mission; the two are on extreme ends of one another.

I will not accept your explanation of risk assessment as the deciding factor to explain why Jihadis on two fronts are cohabiting with a supposedly pagan Yoruba Empire when albeit, their soldiers have decidedly visited destruction on other Empires known for worshipping partners with God.

Its okay if you dont know and cant explain these aberration, but dont approach it with the same wild imagination that you accuse me of.
Stick with facts.

How could Sango's maternal side influence him to read the Quran when the Nupe didn't convert to Islam until the 18th century? Who could have been carrying Quran about in 14th century Nupeland? Am I missing something here?

Thats the question Im asking!

Its not a big deal that Sango read the Quran. Yoruba travellers from Katunga were trading up into Kurmi, Kukawa into Darfur and Sudan back in those days and a gift from royal courts of Sudan back to the Oyo court, in form of a Quran, will not be out of place, as is any other article of gift..be it robe, hat or sword. So I get that, it is however amazing that he read the Quran.

Trading is also an exchange of culture. Were there Arab traders in Oyo as were Yoruba traders in Sudan and could this explain the chronology of very early contact with Islam, even centuries before adjoining nations accepted Islam?

This is not to say there weren't Arabs in Nupe or Hausaland..but there is a missing dot or dots in the quest to fully understand the settings and scenarios. Its a puzzle, bit by bit it can be glued together. No one person has the answer but the collective knowledge can make it happen.

Demand for facts is okay for knowledge thats already discovered. How do you then find undiscovered knoeledge? Through free play of imagination and theorizing.


3.

What is the point you are trying to prove here? That Islam and Yoruba people came into existence at the same time? What is your proof of this other than the illogical analysis you are putting up? I don't see the point of identifying the similarities otherwise; You are obviously suggesting that either Ifa gave rise to Islam or Islam gave rise to Ifa. If you have something tangible to share, by all means do. But there is no way you will convince anyone with a brain that Ifa and Islam are inter-related or derive from one another.

I believe I answered this already. There is nothing illogical in theorizing or in rhetorical examination of tangible info to arrive at a more concise facts.

As far as Yoruba history goes there are not too many facts, but there are a lot of truths.

Is it a fact that Sango turned into a stone went into the ground? No, no one can verifiably confirm that; but is it a truth that thunder turned into the lodestone that grounds lightining bolt, the answer is yes it is true.

Is it a fact that Oduduwa descended down a chain from heaven? No. Well, is it true that Oduduwa was the progeny of a lineage in holiness? Yes, it is indeed true.

Its okay to probe for facts when we discuss Archimedes and Plato and other Western institutiins because these knowledge exist in written records. Yoruba records are for most part still unwritten. There are no facts or proves I can give you but there are truths I can present as I know them. If you ask me to validate tje truth I will, I have never failed to validate a truth here. Even those who accuse me of conjectures find it hard to point to any falsehoods in my submissions, but they accuse me nonetheless because it makes them feel good winning the argument.

Katsumoto,
Islam and Yoruba did not come into existence at same time. You have not answered my question.

You said what we notice in these similarities are universal and you will find them in other cultures and humanities worldwide and in response I want you to tell me, beside the Yoruba, which other people in black Africa prostrate and touch their head to ground or kneel and touch their head to the ground in worship.

Do the Zulus do this rite of worahip?
Can you find it in Masai?
Do Xhosas prostrate themselves in worship?
How about the Hutsis?
Do the Bantus, the pygymies, the Fulanis and Hausas do these people kneel or prostrate and kiss the earth with their forehead?
Have you seen the Igbos and Igalas or the Kanuris and the Ijaws prostrate and put head to the ground?
Is it part of Ga culture to do these things?
The Wolof, Bambara, Kyamberi, Zabarma, any of these people prostrate?

These are all people who the Yorubas share the sub saharan Africa with, why can we not find in one of them these simple act of worship? ..but when you go to Mecca and Jerusalem and Vatican you see this is how they worship God. The Hindus and the priests of Lama, this is how they worship God.

Nobody devotes to worship more fanatically than the blackman. If you cannot duplicate this one scenario of worship in sub saharan African stop calling it universal.

It is unique and is a tie, like Oduduwa's chain from heaven.

Katsumoto: 1. I don't agree that Alaafin or Ooni have more authority on Yoruba history than others. Do you acquire knowledge simply by becoming a king or president? Surely their knowledge of Yoruba history and its analysis should have prevented any public squabble between them.

Someone has to have a repository, wether in oral or written form, of the ancestry and bloodline of a lineage. In a society in which these records are transmitted down orally from one head to the other, the constituted head of the lineage becomes the steward of that knowledge. This is so because the purity of the bloodline is valued and if every memberof the family know what the head know or if there are unauthorized keepers of the knowledge then they run a risk of diluting their pedigree. The family ancestry is a treasure of inestimable value. Great societies therefore have distinct creeds, cognomen, guilds, coat of arms, totems, family compound, even body tattoos and facial marks to distinguish its pedigree from others. As always in these societies, the stewardship of the knowledge rests in the Head and not in multiple heads. The Head could be a council or a court or a elders forum..but the authority is distinguishable and is always one, not two or multiples.

This is an orally transmitting society, it maybe different practice in societies where the records are writtfn and available in libraries or internet.

Lets us scale this basic understanding to the Empire level. Oyo Empire was and still is an orally transmitting society. You cannot go to a library or internet and reproduce the drum message with which the Alaafin is greeted in the morning. The drum beat is part of the oral record, its message transcends centuries of service to the Alaafin lineage. There is onlyone way you can get it - from the authority; the drummer and his sons who must serve future Alaafins with this morning alarm beat, and the Aremo who one day must be awakened to its beat.

Likewise, you cannot get the oriki of Alaafin online. There is only one way to obtain it - the authority; the griot who sings the praises and recites the timeline and his sons who shall serve the recitations to future Alaafins, and as well the Alaafin and his princes and princesses who must be praised and taught the timelines of Yoruba history and its Imperial grace.

So it is for the various other rituals and archives stored in the Alaafins palace and kept in human vaults for posterity. These humans are not ordinary heads like us, they have reinforcement made from potions and herbals to aid retention and recall, in addition to genetic preconditioning.

So maybe Im missing something when you say Alaafin cannot be the only authority on the veracity of timelines in his own Empire. I would like to learn and close my knowledge gap if you have something to enlighten me in that regard.



2.

While it is possible that Alaafin Sango read the Quran, it isn't probable. His mother was Nupe and the Nupe didn't accept Islam until the 18th century. The first traders from Mali didn't get to Oyo until the 15th century. In Yoruba tradition, of which the Alaafin is a part of, Sango is celebrated as a pagan god. How then could he have publicly read the Quran? Did he learn it in isolation? Is the current Alaafin himself not a Muslim? Could it be that he is trying to justify his practice of a foreign religion?

We should respect truth when we encounter it and embrace its value.

Alaafin Sango must have reigned in perharps 13th or 14th century, if not earlier.

You yourself have stated that the pre-existence of Islam in Kanem was a factor in cutting short Fodio's ambition in that frontier. Fodio was spreading Islam to lands that had no Islam. Which should explain his invasion of Nupe. Nupe was a land of idol worship and they were idol worshippers in earlier centuries when Sango was born of a Nupe princess. So his maternal root has no influence in him reading the Quran.

In its history, everywhere Islam has been introduced it was done with force and bloodshed. You said Malians were accomodated and built a mosqu in Yorubaland. This is significant! Did they fight to get access and right of way for this mosque? Im sure you are well read and familiar with Malian exploits in the West African belt and how their Sufis, backed with the Moors invaded Ghana, Songhai and sacked their Empires to plant Islam. Why did they not do this to Oyo? Why did Fodio not take Jihad into Oyo?

I have argued with people on the Ilorin saga, that if Fodio was alive..he would have stopped any acts of aggression on Oyo, no matter how provocative.

What was it in the Yoruba race, while Islamic jihadists were spilling blood across the belt, that stopped them from invading Yorubaland? Why did the Malian and the Fulani (Alimi in Ilorin) sought refuge in Oyo?

It is highly suspicious that Muslims will seek refuge and cohabitation with pagans without waging jihad to crush the paganism.

So its either Yoruba were not pagans or these Malian and Fulani settlers were fabrications and never happened and besides,..Fodio must have died right after planting Islam in Nupe and before he could go the extra 30miles into Yoruba country and wipe their paganism out.

These are thought provoking issues and instead of us trying to score intellectual points on who is more intelligent, Im begging the Yorubas here to please put your academic qualifications aside and accept the truth of what is obvious.

On Alaafin's religion, are you aware that he reads both the Bible and Quran? Are you aware that he has been on pilgrimage both to Israel and Mecca?

Obasanjo is Christian and he has written that Yorubas are from Mecca. The Awujale that was recorded to have said publicly that Ijebus are from Sudan was a Christian. Ooni of Ife, who has an order of the British Anglican Faith has never disputed the narrations contained in the myths of Ife and nor has he ever disputed with Alaafin on the question of origin, their feud is primarily on heirarchy and not on origin of the race.

Alaafin's religion has no significant bearing.



3.

There is no common footprint between Yoruba culture and Islam. There are similarities between Yoruba and Christianity as well as other cultures. Many cultures believe/believed in the concept that reality has two parts (male and female, good and evil, etc). The ancient Greeks and Romans were believers of this principle as were many other empires. There are still many cultures/religions that follow this belief system but their interpretations are different. These interpretations believe that the two can be interdependent, mutually independent, complimentary (Hinduism) or antagonistic (Gnostic Christians, Zoroastrianism). Being that humans live on the same planet and derived from the same source, it isn't far fetched why there are similarities between groups of people that are far removed from one another.

Im not talking about cultural similarity between Yoruba and Islam..I said rituals! Ask initiates into Ifa what they do and ask Muslim pilgrims to describe the Hiram process and compare the two.

Where else in Africa do worshippers lay prostrate or kneel and touch forehead to the ground? Please bring these universality to the fore so we can explore their roots.

Customarily in ancient times Yorubas were spiritual Christians.. This is different from religious Christianity which is what is practiced today.

Tony Spike: Can anyone here tell us how proto-semitic prefixes (articles) such as AL, EL and OL became widespread in the Yoruba lexicon? Did it occur by interaction with the people up north over centuries? Certainly, these prefixes were not conceived or indigenous to the Yoruba forerunners but was imported from elsewhere in Africa.

AL means 'of the' and can be seen used in Arab names like Al-Mustapha, Al-Bashir e.t.c. In Yoruba, we find names such as Al-ade, Al-agba, Al-aba, Al-awo, Al-amu e.t.c.

EL and OLU appears both have the same meaning, may be specifically referring to a supreme deity. For example, ELEDUMARE and OLODUMARE are one and the same. This article has been in use since the ancient times as far back as over 3000 yrs ago.

My personal opinion is that for these articles to have widespread use in Yorubaland, it must been in use for at least 1500 yrs ago! I need opinions...

Tony,

Given the extent to which this question has been probed here since 2010 or 2011 or thereabout, I am not sure, given the many contributions so beautifully and convincingly produced with words, sounds, arts, pictures and sketches, that I have any doubt left in me or remorse on the claim that Yoruba is a Biblical people and their root is firmly in AfroAsia.

I will however watch and see if any of the advocates of the indigenous theory can answer your questions and tie the loose knots using local bearings.

9jacrip: True but it is up to the Ijebu folks on here to disprove or affirm the Sudan/Ijebu link. Though, I'm of Pan-Yoruba mind-state, I wouldn't dabble into the history of a people I'm not well versed in. Between, I'll go with the story of the founder of Ijebu migrating from Ife.

My question is, why can't we look around us - our immediate environment for answers rather than throw ropes far off to find answers?

Between I'm from Ife and I've used my discipline to dig around for answers, our origin has nothing to do with Islam/Mecca/M.East. Let us look within and around us.




Bro, you don't seem to understand me.
I'm not crowning Robin Law and the foreigners to be authorities neither am I agreeing to the school of Mecca/AfroAsia link, No.
Show me the similarities sir, I'm not saying rendition of words to sound alike (because this is all you've done so far on different threads) - I would accept that from a linguist/etymologist. Give me some type of art, dressing, written record, music, dance step, kingship system etc type of similarities and I'll bow to your theory. This is all I'm asking and it shouldn't be so hard.

If you advocate that Yoruba beginning is indigenous then bring us these truths using indigenous markers to tag the different characters of language, arts, rites, priesthood, deities, and so on sourced directly from the immediate environment. This means each and all of the aspects you use or examine cannot have any foreign attributes to them. If you cannot isolate an indigenous character from a foreign attribute then you will need to account for its foreign root.

C'mon, its your turn to give us your side of the truths.

A pattern is evolving as I read all these different inputs and Ive made an observation.

For many years the children of babalawo were reduced to studying their father's trade and later taking over the profession. They were mocked and ridiculed as illiterates and belittled. Time has changed! Children of babalawo these days have college degrees, they earn masters degree. Their knowledge and scholarship, the double whammy of a western education and traditional esoteric insights, is what will advance Yorubaland and open the culture to true inquiry, in art and science, and free of foreign bias. They will posess far more aptitude than Yoruba children who had no exposure to Ifa corpus and understand the energy theories in a much richer context than their global peers.

This is the edge Chinese children today have over Western children - study of cosmic principles and hermeneutics.

When I have children they will be enrolled to study Ifa.

740megawatts: I get your point here. I just thought about this too....many words from Eastern Yoruba axis that begins with 'U' were transcribed to 'I' in the Western and Central Yoruba axes. For example, Ule/Ile, Ufe/Ife, Ubo/Ibo e.t.c.

Could it be that the Yoruba at the Eastern Axis retained the original essence of Yoruba language? Were these people the most ancient? Did the earliest Yoruba ancestors spread out from this axis into Ife and Oyo? These questions require indepth studies because it appears not much was documented on the Eastern Yoruba peoples in research.

What we need is a baseline. What is your minimum claims for these truths? We would like to explore the minimums and build upon them as additional truths are revealed. If they cannot sustain then they are invalidated.

What Eastern Yoruba oral histories would you like us to look at? Start from the beaded crownhead.

The Ugbo of Ife are in coastal Ondo. You people are trying to rewrite their history and steal their birthright.

The Ugbo of Ife means forest people. The Ifes were civilized city dwellers, the forest people they referred to were in a dark age, uncivilized and unpolished in appearance or manners and lifestyle in that stage of their evolution.

No, im sorry, I do not.

9jacrip: Can the Ijebu/Sudan link be proven? I'm not talking about giving words rendition to sound like or draw the same meanings from words - if the linguists of many ages have not done that nor seen any reason for that, I don't see why we should start doing something unnecessary.
Now, does anything from Sudan corroborate the claim?
Any similarities in political system, language, art, dressing, body arts to mention a few.
If none of these are present even in the littlest form then it is total crap.

In other words, Awujale does not know what he is talking about. However people like Robin Law are authorities and more credible than Yoruba Kings.

If you are shown these similarities you still wouldn't believe. Lol.

There are three points I will add here.

1. @tpia, your observations of closeness between the rites of Yoruba traditional religion and Islam is another testament on account of a common footprint between the two cultures. New initiates into Ifa go through the exact same rituals that muslim pilgrims to Mecca go through. What is this ritual? It is spiritual cleansing and transformation as a new born. In Christianity it is called baptism.

There are many transcedental journeys in life, we exit one matrix and enter into another. The transition require a cleansing or attunement (atone) and this is what is symbolized by baptism or the hiram or omo awo.

2. @ katsumoto.
No one has more authority on Yoruba history and footprints or time markers than these two - Alaafin and Ooni.

In a past interview Alaafin Adeyemi confirmed that Alaafin Sango had read the Quran. In timeline this would be far earlier than before Dan Fodio himself knew what Islam was.

It is significant to hear that the 4th Alaafin of Yorubaland read the Quran.

I want to know, how did he understand its language, who taught him?

I will reserve my third question for now.

macof: Even I can't interpret it correctly, our ancestors were smart in coding things.

The creation has little to do with Oduduwa(the king), it's just because it's the Same name that's why people are confused. Humans don't fall from the sky

Olokun deity is the spirit/force of the ocean not a human


I honestly don't know anything about Araba, could u share wat u know about this?

I would be crazy to put the message here!!

I didnt just wake and tossed a coin to decide heads/tail which side to believe.

I think this will probably be the tenth time im pointing to myths of ife as the single authority that ties everything together. Read myths of Ife.

In the creation myth Olokun is the primary deity of creation.

There is no okun in Ife.

9jacrip: [size=16pt]The migration myth was never part of Ife or Yoruba oral history[/size], we need not whip this up just to make the mecca migration appear plausible. It is not and it will never be.
No thanks to Sultan of Sokoto, Clapperton, Samuel Johnson who invented it and helped spread it.
The false migration myth is why some have looked towards Ora Hills of Ile-Ife to have been where Oduduwa came from while some say Benin all in the bid to disconnect the Mecca cord.

The 2 recent theories are very open and are awaiting further research to either become disproved and solidified. Let us bother our minds with that and live Mecca alone, we have nothing in common or shared culture/civilization - not even in art in the least. If at all Oduduwa migrated to Ife, he didn't come from Mecca or AfroAsian location we do not have any similarities in the least and no AfroAsian peoples/Mecca can corroborate this claim - Arabs are record keepers, an event of such magnitude would have been written somewhere no matter how minute - even in passing.

The creation myth gained ground to put Ife at the pinnacle of Yoruba, to cement the place of Oduduwa and Obatala in Yoruba culture/history etc. Quite a number of civilizations/peoples have their own creation myth (and they are not bothered nor struggling to glue to another location for validation) which often happens when a people cannot trace where they originally came from or they are autochthonous.

Busy day ahead, gotta go!

Please, if you are going to have decent discussion on this topic be matured about it and put your bias to the side. I urge that you expand your reading base and be open to the different dimensions so you can learn.

There is a book out there on the hermeneutics of Yorubaland, it will help.

macof: All u posted here just makes me laugh

The creation myth is not literal, everything about it is very symbolic and used to represent something else, it takes a lot of study to decipher and crack open the whole thing. One thing to note is that the Orisha are forces of nature and not human figures. So when u hear "Oduduwa formed the dry lands of earth" it doesn't mean Oduduwa the king but Oduduwa an unseen force of nature that represents darkness and land

And the migration story isn't a myth it's real fact- Oduduwa came from the east of Ile-Ife(I always think of Iwo Eleru to be his birthplace) he met hundreds/thousands of people already settled there and was made the first king due to his intelligence and knowledge, it was believed that he was the man of prophecy and probably possessed by the certain spirits

Give us a translation of the creation myth. Demistify it and give us a dumb down version of the crypted code to support and validate Oduduwa's origin.

On the migration side, If Iwo Eleru was Oduduwa's birth place, then we should find that Olokun deity as well the Araba priesthood both had origin in Iwo Eleru and migrated with him to Ife. Wherever Oduduwa's origin is placed both Olokun and Araba share in the footprint. So can you confirm that Olokun deity and Araba both originated from Iwo Eleru?

There are two camps on Oduduwa founding of Ife.

1. The Creation myth
2. The Migration myth.

The creation myth says he descended from a chain from heaven to a primordial water on which he spread sand and placed a cock to spread this sand and this was how Ife was created.

The migration myth says he was of AfroAsian descent and travelled through other lands before ending in the savannah and settling in a place they named Ile Ife. This myth points to similarities in tongue, arts, rites, priesthood, customs and even facial features and tribal marks between Yoruba and other ethnicities in those landmarks through which their migration journeyed.


You are either in the creation camp or the migration camp.

Now, its my turn to probe.

I would like those who dismiss the migration myth to share with us how Oduduwa descended and where the chain he descended from is kept.

What was the chain anchored to in the suspension of his descent onto the waters?

He was the first mortal in Ife and had 16 children before dying, where did he get a woman to produce these children?

Lol.

This is funny.

Experros: Your analysis on my approach is very true. The dissemination of my intent was quite bland and unsystematic. Yet, I do appreciate your advice and the effort you took to offer your wealth of knowledge.

The generic nature of my topic though less definitive was such that it can become an archive of Yoruba Oriki.

Thank you.

Yes Sir, we can help you with that. Nobody who came with good intentions has ever been denied, although there is a threshold at which point certain knowledge must remain locked up and kept from public glare.

Give specifics on what you need.

Nairaland, particularly Culture section, is a culture-bank, people come in and harvest what they need for a book or thesis or ,lately, hosted blogs. Your opening is very transparent and you did not do a good job hiding your purpose - which is contrary to your stated reason.

The truth is you need materials for a book or blog!

There are four birthrights which a Yoruba child acquires when it is born -

1. Family lineage, symbolized as membership and heirarchy in a communal setting called "Agbole". It is the ancestral seat of community.

2. Family anthem, the praise song that endears and bonds the child to its ancestry, called "Oriki".

3. Family totem, this symbolizes the traditional function or trade of the family in society - blacksmith, hunter, warrior, oral historians, royalty, etc...

4. Family deity, this is the spiritual cult of the ancestors. There is no true Yoruba family that does not have a cult in its ancestry. Modernity has led some people to abandon and even forget the cult tradition in their family compound.


Yoruba does not have Oriki for genders, male/female or man/woman, but we do have romantic attributes or praises for women and men.

To obtain and learn these family heritage of your wife you should talk to her. If she doesn't know, then the two of you need to consult with her family and relatives to learn. It will be embarassing for you to praise her in an Oriki she does not know or that is wrong.


Here are some romantic attributes for men

Ajisafe
Agun t'aso lo
Akigbemaru
Duduyemi


For women

Adu ma dan
Apon b'epo re
Eji wun mi
Eyin'ju ege
Ibadi aran
El'ese osun
Alo m'oko
Idi Ileke

Andre Uweh: In Igbo and Yoruba which I understand to some extent, I'm sorry doesn't exist but there are substitutions for that e.g

Igbo--emehewo m. Meaning I have sinned.
Yoruba usually say é pele.

You are correct that a linear translation does not exist for "Im sorry" in Yoruba, however "e pele" is an expression of "empathy" and not of "sorrow".

Sorry/Sorrow is Isoro in Yoruba.
Empathy/ Sympathy is Pele in Yoruba.

nenergy: Nice explanation. You must be a linguist.

Thank you but Im not a linguist, I just happen to have a highly developed sense of how relational concepts flow and what is needed to ground them so they can be applied effectively.

Tony Spike: My conclusion is this:
Most root words in Yoruba with singular R consonants are all linked to Ra/Horus

ORI (Head)
ORUN (Neck)
ORO (Cult)
ORUN (Heaven)
ORUN (Sun)
ORU(midnight)

RA was the god dedicated to the sun worship. The ancient Egypt (kemet) believed that the sun is the source of everything that exists. Another important god was HAPI, the god of the Nile. In the Egyptian mythological hierarchy, RA was the creator of everything and the god of all. Somehow later, HORUS gained prominence as the sun god and was merged with RA, even though the latter was his progenitor. It is quite interesting to see the religious connection in Yorubaland to the ancient times. I know prexios challenged my position on this the other time. I also believe the Yoruba name for moon (OSUPA) after the Kemet moon god, KHONSU.

This is true.
The Egyptian cosmology was aligned with the stars.

Prexios was not open to talks on mystical dimensions.

Shymmex has a theory here....


I might not want to totally want to agree with him at the moment but I believe a large number of ELITES belonging to a High religious cult and many of their followers migrated out of Heliopolis, Kemet at some time in history. I want to presume they took their religious secrets with them too...There is a possibility that they travelled far into West Africa and Yorubaland is a potential location.

We have discussed this point at length - the principals of Yoruba migration will include its kings, administrators, military and priests. If we say they came out of Egypt, I dont disagree but I do believe we need to baseline the two footprints of Yoruba - pre and post migration.

Tony Spike: For some days now, I have been thinking about the ORO cult. It appears it is the oldest and most widespread of all Yoruba cults. I have my suspicion that this cult is one of the many "Out-of-Egypt" cultures. Firstly, I think I'll date this ancient cult in Yorubaland to over 2000 years. The rituals and practices of the cult ancient reminiscent of practices in ancient Heliopolis. Infact, we may be looking at the Ra/Horus connection here. Can anyone shed a light on this?

Oro is an ancient cult and I am not sure what they worship but I know Yoruba deities and cults are in two realms -

1. Those dedicated to heavens (Orunmila)
2. Those dedicated to earth (Irunmole)

Not in all cases but the heaven deities often have the root -r- in their cults.
The earth deities often have the root -g- in cult names. Example: Sango, Ogun, Agemo, Ogboni.

Oro, I suspect is a worship of one of the stars.

There are two yearly festivals in Ibadan; Orun and Bere. I suspect this Orun is actually Horu of the Egyptians.