₦airaland Forum

9jacrip: Was all of that necessary? @the bolded.

Given how uncouth, classless and unprofessional you have become, this will be my last response to you.

You said AfroAsia/Arab - I asked for evidences aside words and tongue and insults is what I get? Again, I still won't stoop low. Only frustrated folks tow that path, so I'll leave you to wallow or make yourself feel good by throwing insults. Shows how desperate you are with your theory. Now we see you've gone to English? As I said, different words can be picked from different languages to match - it necessarily doesn't mean migration.

The fact remains, as long as you're not a linguist nor etymologist, your theory remains fallacious until someone who's specialized in that field comes to 'co-sign' whatever you're struggling to sell with insults.

So back to topic! You said there are evidences to back Bello's account of Yoruba migrating from Mecca, do not disappoint, just provide these evidences so we can move on - you can throw insults all you want, it tells a lot about your kind of person.

Again, if a thread with details bordering on Edi springs up, I will gladly add so please don't goad me in anyway.

Do watch your words and be couth with your utterances, I might not be so 'shy' the next time.

Cheers.

You dont make the call on the temperaments and interaction in here, neither do I. We all owe one another a decent and respectful comingling and when you step out of your space into my face ..and I made conscious effort to avoid you but you didnt read the sign, well welcome to the Lion's den! You have given me the liberty to disrespect you.

Watch and stay in your space next time mr!

9jacrip: What is all this balderdash? You seem so upset and it is childish and unwelcome in an intellectual discourse. Don't get near the kitchen if you cant stand the heat!
This is what I'm stoking and my stand remains - give us evidence(s) to prove your point! We don see your language comparison now give us the Bello evidence you mentioned in your previous post, I'm waiting.
I never claimed to be a linguist nor etymologist and I do not know any I can table your stuffs to right now.
I've told you to open a thread on Edi festival, tell me what you know about it and I'll post my findings - simple!




I taya for the man.
If we begin to pick words from different places we'd find similarities and this doesn't mean anything!



Thank you!
Asking for the evidence is what the problem is and the same reason he's riled up.

I shake my damn head! Keep distorting history then if it suits you. I pity those who encourage, believe or take you serious.

I can list 500 Yoruba words that have direct correspondence and matched meanings in Roman based languages and another 500 in Semitic/Hamitic tongues. It exposes another angle and area of interest and quest into Yoruba trdition of origin for people who might never have known or thought that those possibilities exist.

I repeat, open your own darn thread, call it Edi and bring us report of your research and interview. Whats wrong with your finger, is it crushed?

..waiting on your honorable linguists to punh holes in the letters and sounds.

Another mind blowing revelation for you and your linguists society.."avia", as in aviation comes from same root as " afefe"; "ofurufu"; " "fiofio"..as in oke fiofio. The root "f", corrupted to "v" in English.

Compare "Ile Ife" to "Nineveh"; the transition from f to v.

I need you to hurry up and start bringing out the non-truths in these words. Ode!!

LADIONLINE, if you recall on our discourse on your thread I kept repeating that I cant put everything here in NL ..i dont want to give pearls to pigs to wear, it will not be valued and will be ruined.

This 9jacrip is a pig not worth adorning with pearls.

You dont expect it to degenrate but yet you kept stoking issues that I have repeatedl clarified.

I will bring my friend on NL after your specialists point out the errors in the sounds.

In fact, here is another one...

English - Forgive
Yoruba - Foriji

English - Sorrow
Yoruba - Isoro

They are unique and non-universal usage yhat tie Yoruba's foothold to AfroAsia.

Tell your linguists to disprove it.

..still waiting on your interview report by the way.

I ignored you several times and tried to avoid a degenration but you took my silence for intimidation. You want fire? I got baskets full of hot quivers.

9jacrip: Result of research is Edi festival and I doubt you know anything about it, else you wouldn't ask me to jam up this beautiful thread with this because it has nothing to do with Yoruba origin. It is another angle entirely and that would mean trolling but if a thread of Edi comes up I'll be glad to add it.

Why would I want to jump into sounds and letters when I'm not trained to do such, you've said you're not so why do you keep touting this? As Terracotta said above you and that should keep you in check - no intellect would you take your theory serious so long you're not trained in the angle you're coming from:

Too bad there are no Linguists or Etymologists on Nairaland to take you up on this.

Note: I'm not trying to pull you down nor discourage your zeal to think up such a theory but it is only right for me to react the way I did and besides the feeling seem to come from several other people too. Just provide the evidence(s) and we can quit inundating one another with lengthy posts.

So if Edi festival has nothing to do with subject matter why did you introduce it here. What relevance is your interview here. You have ego issue.

I have proven those letters and sounds and had a friend versed and skilled in language and interpretations test for them and they are error free and valid. 10yrs work!

I dont need a degree in linguistic to share those sounds.

Like i said, brig your linguists to test them and point out the falshood or error in them. You cannot, so shut up!!

9jacrip: I meant going in circles over trying to digest your theory.

1. Since you're not a linguist or etymologist, nor an historian then I do not see any reason why you should venture into your point number 4. There are many people even of Arab and Yoruba origins respectively who are into either of those fields and are specialized yet no sounds & words connection have come up from them except you?

2 & 3. Nothing in Yoruba also says we should weld ourselves to any other culture. You've once mentioned Yoruba spirituality, does Ifa state anything concerning Arab since it is the embodiment of early Yoruba history?

I love how you outlined the foreign contact with Yoruba, it is beautiful . I see you did that with the principles of writing history, why didn't you just throw all that knowledge away and just write away as you please? For example you used chronology and when I cited how it is not possible for Yoruba to have migrated from Arabia/Mecca based on Chronolonogical arrangement, you said what makes the timing/dating correct because they were invented by westerners etc. You'd said not to follow what the Westerners laid down and textbook approach yet you just did what you advocated against.

Lastly, please show us any reference to the record of Yoruba migration that exists. I'm sure I'm not the only person waiting to go through it. Also please provide corroborating evidence(s) from Arabia and its environs pining Yoruba to Arabs, anything at all aside the rendering of words and sounds which you really should leave to the experts in that field. Nubians said Egyptians were their offshoot/emigrants and there are several records/similarities between both groups, the Bantu migration is supported by archeological and linguistic evidences, it is taught that Native Americans migrated to Americas from Asia and there are supposed records to back this up - why is this not the case for your theory?

Like I once deduced from PhysicsQED's post:



From that, putting our analytical skills to work, it will become clear to us that Bello was referring to Oyo people as the group who migrated from Mecca and not people of Ife while keeping in mind how Oyo came to be.

Finally, Metaphysical, I'm not trying to keep us in a carousel, I'm only trying to draw out the evidences you have from both sides, not to denigrate your intellectual prowess - No. Providing these evidences will put myself and like mindeds who are opposed to your theory to work or shut us up forever. Now, if there's a thread on Edi festival in Ife I will gladly post the work at my disposal for you and others to add to or take away from.

Again, I challenge you to test the sounds and letters I produced for their validity and tell me which one of them is wrong and untruthful.

Also, put the result of your research and interview here for us to see and learn.

9jacrip: I've engaged Mr. Metaphysics a number of times, him and I stay running on a parallel and there seems to be no convergence in sight. It got tiring, so I decided to stay aloof to see how he'd sell his theory to you and what your reaction would be.

His theory, though seems sweet doesn't appear tenable to me. As long as he's not a linguist/linguist historian nor etymologist, Yoruba and Arab/M.East do not share similarities politically, culturally/socially; lastly if, how Arabs were known to have been record keepers, we cannot find any document(s), no matter how small to corroborate Metaphysics' theory of migration then I'd only take his thesis and how he renders words and accents to sound similar mere fantasies. I suspect he's a Muslim anyway and I'm beginning to question is motive.

I dont know why you should keep going in circle over the same stuff I already settled with you perharps several pages ago. In case you missed it, here it is again:

1. I am not a linguist or etymologist, neither am I an historian.

2. I am a Yoruba and there is nothing in my culture and custom that says only historians or linguists or etymologists can act as authority on the traditions of Yoruba origin.

3. What I have submitted are my theories, they are not prescribed, take it as it applies to your interest or input.

4. What I have submitted on "letters"; "sounds"; and "words" are available for you or anyone to test for their validity. They are truthful and revealing.

5. Africa was explored by three interest groups and from three different directions. Yoruba is in the lower Niger section of the Sudan.

The two groups were in order

Arabs
Portuguese
Allied Europe

The Arabs were pioneers and followed the Nile and Andalusia into Negro Africa. They did not come across the desert as is often incorrectly told. In those days people traveled long distances using rivers and large bodies of water for navigation. So from East they used Nile but in West they used Niger. The Arabs did not cross below the Niger into Yoruba country but they visited the capital in Katunga and were familiar with Yoruba traders they met in Timbuktu, Wagadugu, Kano, Kuka Wadaye, Darfur and Kodorfa.

The Portuguese came after them and over water into the coastlands of West Africa. They traded with the coastal Yorubas and riverines people, did not go into Yoruba country.

Early European explorers used the maps and chronicles of Arab explorers to come into Africa. Naturally they followed the Arab tracks, using the Nile and Mauritania. They did not challenge the Sahara.

This is why Clapperton and Landers had heard about Yorubas before they even entered into Yoruba capital. They were early explorers and did not enter into Yoruba country but stayed in Katunga, Old Oyo on the first trip. On their second trip, they went further inland and even to Badagry.

The Colonists came much later, mid to late 1800s. England colonized Nigeria. Much of what they knew on landing was the chronicles of Arab travellers and Early recordings of European explorers. They knew far more about the North than they did with any other part of Nigeria...even though they arrived on the ocean coast, thousands of mile away from Hausaland. They were far more familiar with what to expect in North before they started to administer the North or to amalgamate them.

Colonial administrators had read about Yoruba but had no thorough familiarity until in the 1890s and turn of 1900.

There were two things that shielded Yoruba from outside inquisitions.

A. Imperial power - Yorubaland was not available for foreign invasion or acquisition and so early explorers and visitores would pay courtesy visit to the capital but stay out of the country.

B. Internecine wars - even the Colonialists did not care to penetrate inland into Yorubaland after a taste of devastating losses in war with Yorubas in Lagos in 1855 and with Ijebus shortly afterward..not minding they ended up defeating the Yorubas.

I have told you that the records exist of Yoruba migration and Bello clearly inferred that he is not the originator of the Yoruba/Kanaan story. Bello only had intermingling with Yorubas, Nupes, Kanuris, Gogobirs, Arabs, Berbers. So if it was told by anyone of the non- Yorubas with proven footholds in Arabia, then it can only be true as a authentic record. If he heard it from a Yoruba then the original source was internal and needs to be investigated for proof within, not from outside.

Furthermore, Yoruba history pre-oduduwa is 'lost' and archeological findings haven't helped much. History during Oduduwa's era is also shrouded in myths of different versions and those we deem to be 'authorities' had to take these myths, sieve through and gave it plausible interpretations and this is what we will all keep doing over and over. Honestly, the only untapped field where Yoruba history appears to be is Ifa corpus/Yoruba religion. I might be wrong though but having gone round and round debating the handed down oral history, the Ifa people always seem to have some details held back and not in circulation.

For example, when I did a research on Moremi/Edi Festival (I interviewed Ife traditionalists like Obalufe, Yekere Chief etc) I was told her son's name was Ela or Oluorogbo but on becoming privy to some family stuffs, I was told Ela/Oluorogbo was never Moremi's son, but rather a different deity entirely who happened to have introduced writing in Ile-Ife etc and I given the details I got because I wasn't an 'initiate'

I want to learn. You have said many times that you intervoewed these people. Where is the record of your research and results? Bring it here so I can learn what I dont yet know.

Instead of criticing what Im producing, which as you can see is very helpful, why not share with us what you have produced. Bring your own theory.

As I said already these Western society that some of us worship are sitting, solidly, on myths and theories produced and institutionalized from people like Homer, Plato, Derwin, Shakespeare and so on.

Obalufon: Oooooooooo! is good to believe white lie but black lie never!! .When you condemn the believe of other people's religion. stop being rational about the history and believe of Yoruba people. Mentioning the name of highly revered deity or figure like as oduduwa,shango desecrate ,violate the sacredness of our native religion and history.just believe or drop dead Mr man.

Obalufon,

C'mon! Lets be matured and respectful, please.
We are all passionate about our land and its past heroes and founders, we show the love the best way we know, you are no more loving Oduduwa and Yoruba than Katsumoto, let's be mindful of the flaming tongue and restrain the ego. Please brother.

Katsumoto: Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

That's the way Western society is structured, that does not mean it is the best social evolution.

Yoruba history and spirituality go hand in hand. Yoruba does not have a religion, we have spirituality! Our history and its spirituality are interwoven.

In some society democracy is separated from religion and the government is secular, yet in others the government has a religion.

Nonetheless, even the myths of Shakespeare, the fantasies of Homer and the fables of Charles Dickens are all interwoven and integrated into Western society and their history. There are Shakespear clubs and theaters with noble men and ladies who serve as the stewards of these tales by moonlight.

You cannot go through secondary school and graduate university without studying and passing exams on these European fantasies. How many people in here has ever criticized or question these so called "classics"?

In fact some of the historians in here ought to tell us what is truthful and realistic in Illiad or Othello or Huckleberry Finn.

Katsumoto: Brother,

I apologize for the tone of my post. It appears I mis-understood your complete intentions.

We are in agreement that the Yoruba migrated to the current areas. The next area of my study will be the migration of people into Yorubaland. I am keen to explore Tony Spike's hypothesis about Yoruba/Kemet connections.

I am yet to come in touch with text written about the Yoruba in French but I have read Portuguese and Spanish text. Most of these relate to Yoruba philosophy and spirituality.

I agree about Yoruba not being conquered by any culture or religion. I have often argued that Yoruba spirituality and philosophy is so fluid and powerful that it assimilates other cultures and religions. Hence why a Yoruba can be Muslim and traditionalist or a Christian and traditionalist at the same time. And why a Yoruba family can have Muslims, Christians, and pagans.

Crowther was originally from Iseyin. He wasn't Egba.

Yes, please, Tony Spike's theory of a interconnect between Yoruba and Kemet is a lead worth investigating.

Regardless of what we are looking for in a people we are bound to find its copy practiced by another people elsewhere.

Yoruba has a place called Oregun. Lets get all places on the earth named similarly; we get Oregano, Oregon, Origene, and so on.. These are places named as marker for origin or source.

There is a universality in the nomenclature but we dont know if the sense of application is the same for all of them. People of Oregun are distant in geography from people in Oregon, Oregano or anywhere else named after origin and so we should not expect anything common between them. If we find similarity in the arts, the customs, the words, sacrifice and rituals between Oregun and Oregon, then those exact similarities should equally occur in Oregano and Origine. If not, it would mean something unique exist and is shared between Oregun and Oregon and the deeper we inspect these commonalities the more revelations are discovered exclusive to these two that are not duplicated anywhere else. We should not now latch onto the name marker alone and say linguists and scholars have looked at them and concluded its nothing more than a naming protocol that tie Oregun to Oregon.

macof: I see no relationship with Igbo and Yoruba languages ur linguistic historians are flawed because I have personally observed the languages and words similarities doesn't put languages in the same lingual tree.

We have no binding history and don't have same ancestors. Igbos history doesn't link with Ife and they don't have a definite start, Yorubas do and that's Ile Ife.

I never claimed Ife to be the origin of humanity, I speak for myself and Ife is my origin and the origin of Yoruba


ijo claim to have welcomed Adimula from Ife and he had a family there whose descendants left to found Ilaje



The final migration to ijebuland was led by ogboroganda aka Obanta, he got to ijebuland and met people there, his people only mixed with them.

Language historians can say whatever they want and release all kind of statistical reference on it all they want, thats their profession and they would be wise to protect its standard and authority, afterall medical doctors do the same thing day in and day out..they tell women b.r.e.a.s.t feeding is bad for them and their children and educated women all over follow their advise and put plastic bottles in their children mouth, then 10yrs later same profession come out and say b,r.e.ast feeding is the best for babies..educated women abamdon plastic bottles and go back to putting n.i.p.ple in babies mouth.

Makes me wonder if educated women are truly educated!

Katsumoto: Stop asking me questions. I have no intention of playing your game.

You either provide your hypothesis and supporting proof or ignore my posts.

I have asked you repeatedly - WHERE ARE THE YORUBA FROM?

So far, you have argued that the Yoruba share something with Middle Eastern Islam. What is the connection? You have talked about similarities but nothing concrete.

Lange attempted to intellectualize the thoughts of Islamic scholars who believed the Yoruba, Hausa, etc all migrated from the middle east.

Calm down my brother, please calm down.

I dont know where Yoruba is from but I know where they are not from. They are not from the land they currently occupy. Im on a quest to find their origin. So far, I have gone into many books, English books, Yoruba books, Arabic books, Hausa books, Jewish books, Egyptian books..

Yoruba books are more confusing than the rest and I will tell you why.

Yorubas, unlike foreigners writing and theorizing the history, have to also live the history. Everything so far written by respectable Yoruba scholars on the history is done so from the perspective of Western ideology, not Yoruba philosophy. In order words, there is a gap between the thoughts and the spirit..we are thinking in foreign language and expressing in foreign language but our nature, emotion, spirit and impulses are Yoruba, not English.

Do me a favour Katsumoto, go and read books on Yoruba written in French and compare with that written in English and you come up with different angle of understanding. Read the one written in Portuguese and compare with that written in English or French and you gain a different angle. Why all these inconsistencies about one history and one people?

Of all the foreign people to come into the hinterlands of Yoruba, Katunga and Ile Ife and Oyo, Arabs were the pioneers. Ibn Khaldun and Batutta as well Baba Ahmed had chronicled their contact with Quorra and Katunga long before Livingstone and the Landers or Mungo Park. The Portuegese came after the Arabs and before the English but they did not go into the interior, they stayed on the coastal waters and this is all they knew of Yoruba.

The Arabs came over the desert and did not go to the coast.

So the Arabs had no knowledge of an existing Yorubaland past Oyo territory and this is why in teir chronicles Oyo is Yoruba, and no where else. They had no knowledge of such.

The Portuguese wrote many things about the coastal people and the riverines but left much untold about Katunga and its glory because they did not know the coastal people had a kingdom farther inland and if they knew it wasnt connected with their trade which prinarily was water dependent.

The first foreigners to make contact with all peoples of Yorubaland were the colonists and was possible only after the Kiriji war. They had made some tractable gains in Lagos, Badagry, Abeokuta and so on and established resettlements and missionary.

By the time the colonists entered into Yoruba proper they discovered that the Muhammedan faith was widespread and even the kings and court were practicing the Sudan traditions.

Their mission was to turn the orientation away from Sudan and into Christianity.

Abeokuta was the seat of Yoruba Chriatianity and missionary work and Crowther was from there and living there..it would be imperative that the Egba dialect should have been adopted as the language and standard of Yoruba Bible and alphabets. Why did they use Oyo as standard?

The land was conquered but the soul of the people has not been conquered. You conquer the people when you steer their culture away from its base beliefs and in the case of Yoruba it had to be done politically because the nation itself is structured politically. The political seat of power is Oyo..and this factored into why they used the Oyo dialect as standard.

They did the same thing in Hausaland. Hausas are structured politically but less sophisticated than Yorubas..so they use the Emirs for indirect rule and taxation and introduced jangali.

Oyo dialect did not have full orthography in English language sounds and meanings and made writing and interpretation impractical. How did they resolve that?

The transliteration was done creating sound match in various European languages where a match exist..even though the meaning was different and not a match and this is how they created a alphabet list for us.

In addition to the fact that our alphabet list is latinized using sounds from different language standards, our alphabet list is missing letters also. This is a great handicap to studying Yoruba and understanding its true history.

This is why I adopt Yoruba sound for my activism here rather than relying on meaning.

..but this alphabet is all we have and so we should make the best of it.

Now, am I completely convinced Yoruba is from AfroAsia? No!

Am I convinced completely that Yoruba is NOT from its current abode in Nigeria? You bet I am!

So where is Yoruba from?

I steer away from Western biases and the Arab biases and go into Yoruba arts, worship, culture, kingship, priesthood, songs, sounds, heirlooms, artifacts, orikis, myths, gods...these are unbiased and truthful spirit of Yoruba itself and thats who I have adopted as my teacher. I want Yoruba to teach me where it is from..and it has done a great job of doing that so far. There are still some loose knots to tie and questions. If I can get an answer to those questions, trust me I will be selling the AfroAsia belief wholeheartedly.

ladionline: There is an unrelenting efforts by some of us to redefine Yoruba history by our new found penchant for biology and 'oyinbo-precepts.' Some hunt down every salient point that is at variant with their sense of perception. Advance Biology has left the classroom for nairaland these days. Yoruba precept is valid for Yoruba history, we don't need Darwin. What is Yoruba precept of origin? It is the paspective of Yoruba on their origin in pristin form, not when it has mixed up with any revisionists or 'politico' AGENDA. How do we go? Linguistic records please. Keep your fossils for now. The Yoruba for their earliest time is 'nigba lai-lai': what does this mean? Then, Laye ati-jo, L'aye-igba-ani, and 'Nigba iwa se.' We can make up whatever opinion that cross our mind as history, but the facts embeded in Yoruba language elude the ambitious. Of course, only a fool concorts: he has nothing to lose nor gain, but wise folks will instruct many. The word nigba iwa se is the traditional intro to Yoruba history.

Ladi, I agree with you, you are on point!

Lets start from when IWA was founded or manifested.

Some say Oduduwa was Odu to da IWA. So then what is IWA?

Im open to learn from you Yoruba linguists and scholars out here.

Lmao..here we go, another length back and forth on Yoruba. Nairaland does not have enough space for us to share what we know without appearing unknowledgable.

You guys just like mischief at every corner.

Yorubas respect both thrones regardless of where the superiority lies.

Im sure no scholar worth his/her weight would consider this a good use of knowledge.

Katsumoto: I already provided that the female Oduduwa being referred to in Ketu must be Oduduwa's grand-daughter who sired the first Alaketu or married the first Alaketu. Everything else you stated is in line with my posts. For me, it matters where Oduduwa is from because it establishes, for me, the period of his reign. It is precisely why I don't believe the Middle Eastern origins of Oduduwa as held by some Yoruba historians and Dierk Lange. According to the arabian tales held by Muslims in Northern Nigeria and Mali, Oduduwa is said to be the son of Sargon, but Sargon II ruled about 600 BC. Did Oduduwa live for 1800 years? That story has many holes.

For me, the Bini story is most plausible. For the Bini story to be untrue, Oduduwa himself would have had to have been a fraud. That is, he would have had to have pretended to be the lost Bini prince, when in fact, he wasn't.

And Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. Your holding on to Ife being the beginning of Yoruba is biased because you are from Ife. Ife birthed many other Yoruba kingdoms through Oduduwa's offspring. Yoruba spirituality birthed in Ife. The history of the Niger-Congo language family puts the Yoruba separating from the Igbo, Edo, Ijo about 3000 years ago. This predates Oduduwa.

The only person who theorized the idea of Oduduwa being Sargon's son was Lange. No Arabian record exist of Oduduwa being the son of Sargon. No Northern or Mali record exist for this. However, there Assyrian records that mention Duwduw or Audud.

Katsumoto,

What was the name of the land Oduduwa met when he arrived in what today we call Ile Ife?

What language did the people speak that he met on ground?

What were their belief and faith system?

Tony Spike: On a thread like this, several inputs emerge and I do appreciate true historians like Terracotta and Katsumoto who are sharing their knowledge in these area of Yoruba history based on their own painstaking research. I am here to learn and I am very open to knowledge because I am a student in my own field of pursuit also. However, I have discovered that there are so many angles to Yoruba history each with its own politics, culture, religious inclinations and social perception. For example, I am surprised that the Oduduwa legend was ascribed a female personality by some Yoruba groups as explained by Terracotta. As far as my primary and High School days, I was taught about the mythical Oduduwa who descended from Heaven via chain with a cock and palm seedlings (I think). I have considered my personal research into Yoruba history as my own way of understanding the past of my people. It has paid off so far and I'm glad about that. In my family line, my great grandfather was the chief custodian of the King's burial rite (somewhere among the Eastern Yoruba clans) and he was a specifically titled for that purpose. I am saying this to disprove someone who suggested I am an 'Akata'.

As a researcher, one of the things I've learnt is that knowledge itself undergoes several stages of hypothesis and theory to become what it is. The most important aspect to this is establishing the truths through the validation of such knowledge or even history. Validation of ancient history is very rigorous and sometimes, very impossible which is why archaeology is very important. Being impervious to hypothesis without any established basis is a very unwholesome attitude and any researcher should know that. I will hereby watch this thread as a spectator rather than contribute. Thanks to all.

Tony,

I like your response here. The matter is simple, I have said numerous times there are many yet undiscovered aspects to Yoruba and we need Yorubologists specialized in the many inlets and outlets of the race.

In Yoruba there is :

Alchemy
History
Anthropology
Geography
Mathematics
Physics
Language
Art
Spirituality
Esoteric

Its unfortunate that the forum that serves as our platform for the discussions here does not have its forum subdivided in line with the subject areas and hence we collide. If we have a partitioned platform, Im sure my discussions on the esoteric use of sounds and letters will not be in collision with a linguist's or a historian's or geographer's or even the alchemist's.

Each one of us have valid submissions based on our understanding that is worth pursuing for fact finding and record keeping, there is no doubt in my mind.

Western culture is partitioned into its sub areas so that specialists will not be at each other's throat. Western politics and their history goes hand in hand but yet their curriculum are different study areas. We need something like that for Yoruba.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]https://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg


ID.IOT! ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

kalb means HEART!

It was just an example!

It has nothing to do with Qiblah or pre-islam or whatever. [/quote]You are so arrogant. You assume nobody here understand Arabia or speaks Arabic, right?

Beside google you have nothing supporting your knowledge of Arabia or its pre Islamic paganism.

Let me show you the connection between Kalb and Qiblah. This is information you cannot find in google and it proves why you returned with insult instead of answering my challenge.
I didnt introduce the word, you did..so why is it hard for you to defend things you have no resource to defend?

Im not going into details, very brief because there are things not worth my time discussing on nl.

K-l-b

Ka - the spark of life, reminding of mortality.
La - the polar of la and al, the which is affirming and at same time negating. Functionally a bridge.
Bi - the spark of multiplicity. It functions here as a principle of immortality or something sustained into future.



In astrology, Leo is ruled by the sun, which rises from the East, but Leo is physiologically connected with the heart.





Yoruba of ancients worshipped moon and a black stone is carried by a person at the head of the ritual procession.

No need to talk in length.

Qi - a source or core
Bi - a chain of continuum
La - essence of duality

The sun, the moon and the holy sacrifice!!!

I can even go further and connect this with how the Jesus cross came into existence.

These are knowledges i expect a pagan such as yourself to know, instead you are using google to interprete terms..yet you are the first always to post in supersized 25 fonts and dismiss people contribution as "bs".

Tame your ego and start respecting people, or I will tame it for you. Fool!


** i had to clean somethings out after your read..cus i realize it doesnt matter how much i give caution some ppl will turn the mention of islam and sun into something else.

ladionline: If you are Awori, then your history is conected to either owa or Agbodre omo agbo dere further conects you to the memorial of the egun in Yoruba, as in isheri olofin, or the boa constrictor.

Who is this lol. You know too much my brother, are you Awori?

On my maternal side the boa is sacred, i wont say more than that. Now, no more questions.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]Thank you for your kind acknowledgement.

now listen to me. I can speak Arabic.


SALAT IS NOT DERIVED FROM SALAAM.

They are different.

Kelb means dog.

Kalb means heart.

so will you say dog is derived from heart?

In Arabic, even the slightest difference in pronunciation can make a BIG difference.


I rest my case.

The meaning of Salute to the Soldier would be to acknowledge the oponent before the battle. in those days they used to fight with maces. so the knights would face each other and then shut their visor before charging at each other on horseback.[/quote]Dude, stop using google to search for meanings to post. I dont need your meanings..bring out their applications. We are talking about culture, culture is all about mundane living and realities. Particularly on ancient practices!

What is kalb to the individual? Stop throwing words around.

Kalb and Qiblah are connected. Qiblah is where Mecca is and Muhammed to muslims to face. There is a ritual linking the two.

As pagan, these applications is what i want to hear you share..it'd be different if you were a linguist, but you are not.

What is kalb? Give us a pagan view or a pre-Islam tour of Kalb.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]Bro plz stop changing the pronunciation and making it all sound "Yoruba". Its highly irritating and I have to keep correcting you.

There is no such thing as "sigidi". are you referring to "Lasgidi" by chance

In Arabic, idols are called "Asnam" ( the object of worship you are referring to).


The worship of the calf has nothing to do with Hinduism.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT PAGAN RELIGIONS ARE INTERCONNECTED

The Hindus worship the calf because the Aryans (ancestors of the Brahmins and Kshatriya castes), were nomadic cattleherders of Aryan stock.

This has nothing to do with the Semitic Jews who are another people/race altogether.

Now there was a reformist movement in the Later Vedic Age, which probably led to cow worship.

Cow was the main source of wealth. By putting an end to animal sacrifice and non-vegetarianism (only plant sacrifice and other forms of sacrifice were allowed), the HIndus found a way no only to be moral with animals, but also to save their wealth, i.e., COWS.

the cow is also seen as a mother, because it is unusual that a mammal depends on another mammal for milk. The cow provides milk like a mother basically. therefore it is worshipped as a symbol of motherhood, and of the Aryan race.


THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JUBAL!!!!

The Arabs were not so poor in pronunciation like you. They pronounced their God as "HUBAL" .

When Abu Sufyan invoked the God, he said "Show your Superiority O Hubal! "

Maybe your "Juba", originated form South Sudan's capital "JUBA".

There is no such thing as altar. This is not a christian church.

There were 360 idols to fit into the Ka'abah. Basically the whole Ka'abah would be an altar. it doesnt make sense.


jews have nothing to do with the Pagan Arabs. stop bringing Judaism in between. they are a different people altogether.

It is 360 Gods in the Ka abah, not 401. stop trying to relate unrelated figures.[/quote]Reduce hubal to its roots and do same for jubal. Lets see what you come up with.

If your argument is true, then french fries in America and potatoe chips in England are not the same thing since they are called different names. In fact neighborhood and neighbourhood are not the same thing since one is missing the u. This will also apply to labor and labour, different spelling, forget the meaning..they are different.

Give a break down of Asnam and apply its sense in the Arabian culture.
You lack understanding of Arabic grammar. You have used people's lack of exposure and knowledge in Arabic language and culture to perpetrate false authority. Im here to let people know you are ignorant on what you claim to know..if google and wiki close shop your false authority on Arabian knowledge will pooofh!!

ladionline: Uhm-uhnn, meta fun metaphisical. Nobody can shake your resolve. You are prince indeed. while i dont buy all your argent as you often bite more than you can shew, yet i love your undying spirit. Your stories are far fetched yes, but your rivals don't have what you have: a benefit of the doubt. They were blinded by their bias that has become a pride or problem. Nobody has right but the right to do what is right. You are a great spirit, i love your prose. Kudos, omo erin j'ogun ola.

Lmao!

Oduduwa a gbe wa o!

Thanks my brother. Omo Erin is totem for royal, I come from line of warriors - Omo Agbo!

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]bullsh.it. (no offence intended).

Salat/Salah is compulsory prayer. It is done 5 times a day.

Salah is the formal prayer. its verb will be "Yusalli" ( to pray).



Duah is an invocation . it is a personal prayer and does not involve the islamic formal ritualised style and recitation of Surahs in Arabic.


It can be done anytime, anywhere, anyhow.



Salute (the physical action) is derived from medival times when knights used to raise the visor of thier helmet before going into combat, while facing the opponent, as a sign of acknowledgement.

The "word" Salute has latin roots.[/quote]You have sold the idea, through numerous posts, that you are an expert or subject matter guru on Arabian history and their pagan roots, and this only why Im asking you these questions to unravel and demistify what many people, out of bias, do not want to touch.

This is opportunity to prove what youve always asserted authority on as you are frequently quick to tell people to "shut up" on these subjects.

Duah - prayer
Salat - peace

Duah is the supplication and entreaties to God.
Salat is the ritual of finding peace within self and stems from salam.

The individual's self ego is his enemy. He has to tame it with humility. Salat is the antidote to the ego. The ritual of the antidote is the various positions you observe Muslims using in prayer. This is done repeatedly to keep ego in check so it does not run wild and end the individual in trouble..and the person can thus have peace in them and able to radiate and relate in peace (not ego) with others.

Each of the positiin itself mean something and i already tied their uniqueness (kneeling and bowing) to my subject, Yoruba.


Etymology of salute as a word is for linguist. Im not a linguist. Again, you are pagan, you preach paganism around here and get in people face when they hold a different view from you. Pagan should be giving us the land usage and application of salute, not the linguist usage.

I just gave you a thorough dissassembly of salat and application. Give us one for salute.

What is meaning of salute to a soldier or the knight you illustrated above?

MetaPhysical: I may not have time to complete the thoughts here on this response because Im going out and pressed for time but I will be back at some point later to wrap it up.


The Kaaba itself is a shrine enclosed in an ancient grove.

The Kaaba and its grounds is called AL MASJID AL HARAM.

I alredy told you what Sajadah is. So guess what Masjid is? A place for bowing to the ground.

What is Haram? It stands for "Sacred".

Think of all the Yoruba words with "haram"; "aram"; "orum"; "irum"; "urum".

They are all denoting sacredness.

Gotta go, later...

In continuation here..

Al Masjid al Haram is the official designation of the Holy Mosque in Mecca. The grounds is a valley sorrounded by hills. There are two places in ancient Semitic traditions -pre Jewish, pre Christianity and pre Islam - where SIGIDI was an object of veneration and people bowed to them in designated shrines or Masjid:

1. Jerusalem
2. Mecca.

The tradition in Jerusalem and in Mecca were identical. The worship of the calf in old Jewish culture is what later spread East and evolved into the sacredness of cows in Hindu society. The Hindus also bow and prostrate and touch head to the ground in worship.

The tradition in Mecca was later to be integrated into the practice when Muhammed (SAWS) began preaching Islam. He instructed his followers to face either of the two Masjids when they prostrate in prayer. This is why till today Masjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem and Masjid Al Haram in Mecca are the two Holiest grounds for Muslims.

Historians have revealed that Jubal or Hubal was the king or head of the SIGIDIs in the sacred valley of Mecca. Jubal is the one always on the altar in the inner chamber.

Pagan9ja, you mentioned everything in the Kaabah but left out the "altar". An altar is still in there. I dont know if its the same one Jubal sat on or a symbolic representation of the original one.

Jubal has been misrepresented by Historians, similar to what was done to Esu, but on a smaller scale.

Yorubas use the term "juba" to denote veneration at an altar and or in the offering of libation. "Mo juba fun Eledumare"; "Mo juba fun Olojo". Iba is the veneration to the one who sits at the head or the throne or, as in the case of Mecca, on the altar.

It is interesting that Jubal, sitting on an altar placed in the inner chamber of an enclosed shrine located in a sacred (haram) valley, has also been associated with 301 gods resident in the city of Mecca.

I said earlier that "haram"; "aram"; "irum"; "orum"; "urum"; "urim"..are all co-rooted.

Yoruba have "Irumale", but we also have "Orunmila.

The Jews have "Uriml", most often just called Urim!

What is Irumale and what is Orunmila?

In Yoruba belief, informed by the ancient manuscript, Ifa, Irumale is the sacred primordial and Orunmila is the sacred word. 201 gods descend from Orunmila in heaven and 201 gods rise up from Irumale on earth. These form a shield around a sacred throne.

This is where the myth of 401 gods of Ile Ife came from. It is also the same tradition that is attributed to Jubal and the 301 gods of Mecca. In the New Testament of the Bible and in Revelation, this is what the shield around the sacred throne is talking about. The Urim of Jewish tradition has an opposite pair called Thulim and this is what their sacredness denote.

When the Yoruba kneel and touch his head to the ground or prostrate and touch his head to the ground, he is observing ancient rites of worship common to Ife, Mecca and Jerusalem and by extension, Hindus and Tibetans in Asia.
The Sajadah of Muslims is the same as the Sojude of Yoruba and the prostration of Jews and Christians in Jerusalem and Vatican.

There is nowhere else on this planet these rites of worship and belief principles are practiced..if we find a society that does and is their ancient tradition, then that society also has its root in AfroAsia. It is not a universal principle or article of faith, its unique.

What I shared above has barely scratched the surface of the deep well of knowledge connecting Yoruba art, worship, tongue, gods and so on to AfroAsia.

We can query whether Jerusalem and Mecca were the migrants out of Ife and these customs were exported from Ife as point of origin. There is nothing wrong with this reverse line of thought and in which case the vindication will be that such an after-thought is possible because the first recorders of literature were the voice of history and the shapers of knowledge, hence Yoruba did not win the premier position due to its lag in recording human history.

Katsumoto: Muqaddas I think.

Muqaddas is a mentor, teacher or guide that oversees the opening of the inner light in spiritual quests.

Haram is sacred limits into which the introduction of uncleanliness or impurities are forbidden.

macof: Haram is crime not sacred

Show me proof that it means sacred

What is sacred in Arabic?

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]Yes there is nothing.

Just 3 pillars and some inscriptions in Arabic on the walls.[/quote]I may not have time to complete the thoughts here on this response because Im going out and pressed for time but I will be back at some point later to wrap it up.


The Kaaba itself is a shrine enclosed in an ancient grove.

The Kaaba and its grounds is called AL MASJID AL HARAM.

I alredy told you what Sajadah is. So guess what Masjid is? A place for bowing to the ground.

What is Haram? It stands for "Sacred".

Think of all the Yoruba words with "haram"; "aram"; "orum"; "irum"; "urum".

They are all denoting sacredness.

Gotta go, later...

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]I dont understand. I just told you what salute is.

unless you can tell me something[/quote]That is the ritual of salute. What is Salute? You said it has nothing to do with Salat, so what is it?

Paga9ja,

I had a burning urge to get my response to you but unexpected visitors dropped in.

Salat is not prayer. Prayer is Duah. Salat is peace! It evolved from Salam.

In military regimen the Salute came from ancient tradition of baring hands to reveal "peaceful" intent towards the receiving officer.

In social parlance, Salute is a peaceful exchange.

You said Salute did not come from Salat. I will like to understand where it came from.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]I just remembered to answer this question.

What is funny is that, of the 6 pillars of islam, none are pre-islamic, save the last one (ehich is again subject to debate) .

Anyways, some pre-islamic customs in todays islam:

-Circumambulation of the Ka'abah.
- Use of the Ka'abah itself.
-Acknowledgement of the black stone.
-The black stone's outer silver casing is shaped similar to a womans ------. I dont know if this is a coincidence or the shape has remained unchanged, or whether the ottomans built it that way and it has remained. if it is true, then this must be a fertility symbol, as people are known to carress and kiss the stone as well.
-The forbidding of killing of Rabbits, Ghazelle and cutting down of trees in and around the premises of the Ka'abah. Hunting is prohibited, and it is known as Haram (Forbidden). This shows that Mecca is a Hauta, i.e., a sacred grove. There are many such Hautas found across Arabia were hunting and lopping of date trees is forbidden. These are sites of long-forgotten shrines and cults.
-ritual abolution.
-use of the Zamzam spring and its sacredness. It is common in sacred groves to have sacred springs, the water of which wouldve been used in he past for actual ritual purposes.
-Running between the hills of Safa and Marwah.
-Bowing and mode of worship to the God.
-Acknowledgement of Allah.
-Belief in the Fates.
-Lunar Calender, sacredness of the Moon.
-Festival of Ramadaan. Festival of Eid.
-Sacrifice of Rams. (Animal Sacrifice)
-Use of Poetry in prayer.

etc. .[/quote]Pagan,

What is inside the Kaabah, do you know?

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]Salute is a gesture of respect, usually the type done by the army guyz.[/quote]That is the ritual of salute. What is Salute?
You said it has nothing to do with Salat, so what is it?

Paga9ja,

I had a burning urge to get my response to you but unexpected visitors dropped in.

Salat is not prayer. Prayer is Duah. Salat is peace! It evolved from Salam.

In military regimen the Salute came from ancient tradition of baring hands to reveal "peaceful" intent towards the receiving officer.

In social parlance, Salute is a peaceful exchange.

You said Salute did not come from Salat. I will like to understand where it came from.

9jacrip: It appears my brother Mr. MetaPhysical is all alone in his bid to tout the Yoruba AfroAsia origins theory.

I don't even seem to understand your argument anymore.

- Is it about Oduduwa coming from Mecca with his band to usurp power?

OR

- Is it about Yoruba as a group migrating from Mecca/AfroAsia?

You seem to be mixing or merging up the two and fervently trying to convince people with AfroAsia origins of both.

I think the fact that you're not an etymologist nor a linguist historian isn't making people give your argument serious consideration. And you've also not been able to point at art, music, political system etc that appear both in AfroAsia/Mecca & Yorubaland; for the Yoruba migration wave and if for Oduduwa migration, please cite any Arabia record that details it and any similarities Oduduwa brought with him.

As I said on the other thread, let's look around -there's Oke Ora theory, Benin theory and according to Mr.Macof, there's Iwo-Eleru theory - these are all immediate and you could use your energy to research this, rather than appear as a religious fanatic or someone trying to subtly proselytize.

Mr. Pagan 9ja has taken you up on the Arab/Islam part and it would be nice to see how that plays out.

Anyways, I'm enjoy your inputs and every other person's so far.

Cheers.

Hey, wassup bro?

I believe you misunderstand me and my quest. There are two camps, Im on the opposite camp from your position. Your belief in the indigenous theory serves as a motivation for me to dig deeper and work harder in my quest to connect the dots between Yoruba and AfroAsia. If everybody believes in the AfroAsia theory, then what would be reason for me doing this? Likewise, if everyone believes in the indigenous theory then its a waste of your time preaching about Iwo Eleru.

Put this in perspective brother. Without the enemy who put up a gallant barrier and fortification and stood obstinately in defense of their land, no invading Army can have heroes in honor. This paradox is in the realm of Esu. We are Yorubas, lets take wisdom from our own philosophical teachings.

I respect Katsumoto and all his nonsense, its plenty of sense in what he has submitted but I disagree with the position of indigeneity. Terracota makes sense and so do you, but we will never see eye to eye even though youve earned my respect.

Dont take it personal, we are all learning and we need one another to inspire the knowledge.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]I just remembered to answer this question.

What is funny is that, of the 6 pillars of islam, none are pre-islamic, save the last one (ehich is again subject to debate) .

Anyways, some pre-islamic customs in todays islam:

-Circumambulation of the Ka'abah.
- Use of the Ka'abah itself.
-Acknowledgement of the black stone.
-The black stone's outer silver casing is shaped similar to a womans ------. I dont know if this is a coincidence or the shape has remained unchanged, or whether the ottomans built it that way and it has remained. if it is true, then this must be a fertility symbol, as people are known to carress and kiss the stone as well.
-The forbidding of killing of Rabbits, Ghazelle and cutting down of trees in and around the premises of the Ka'abah. Hunting is prohibited, and it is known as Haram (Forbidden). This shows that Mecca is a Hauta, i.e., a sacred grove. There are many such Hautas found across Arabia were hunting and lopping of date trees is forbidden. These are sites of long-forgotten shrines and cults.
-ritual abolution.
-use of the Zamzam spring and its sacredness. It is common in sacred groves to have sacred springs, the water of which wouldve been used in he past for actual ritual purposes.
-Running between the hills of Safa and Marwah.
- Bowing and mode of worship to the God
-Acknowledgement of Allah.
-Belief in the Fates.
-Lunar Calender, sacredness of the Moon.
-Festival of Ramadaan. Festival of Eid.
-Sacrifice of Rams. (Animal Sacrifice)
-Use of Poetry in prayer.

etc. .[/quote]Thank you, I like your list and I will keep it. Everyone of these list came from preIslamic practice.

Kaabah was a shrine and still is a shrine and the circumabulation came from what is oftem referred as "dance of the circle" in modern observations of ritual worship, but is an ancient practice.

I do want to highlight that the single most observed position of worship anywhere in the world is "KNEELING".

In preIslamic Mecca, the shriners prayed to objects..carved objects depicting deities. They will enter the shrine where these objects are kept on altar and get on "knees" and "bow" to the ground.

In Yoruba language these objects are called "SIGIDI".

What does does sigidi mean in Yoruba language? I dont know..but I know its application.

The act of kneeling and bowing to the ground in Yoruba is called "S'OJU DE".

The object of the "s'oju de" act is what we call "sigidi".

This principle was borrowed from the shriners and introduced into Islam and became "SIGD", from which you have the term "SAJADAH" when a Muslim bows head to the ground.

To be continued..later.