₦airaland Forum

Unbiased1:
Question 1: Do you believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and the "Holy Land" is theirs by right of Divine appointment and covenant?
People view the issue in Palestine either from a religious point or a historic point of view. I view things more from a historical point of view, which I think is rich enough to defend my support for Israel. This does not mean that those who view things from a religious point of view are totally wrong, especially when it's clear that we are dealing with a terrorist group that started this war, not to create a Palestinian state, but to achieve Jihad based on what was issued in their religious book. Also, we can't completely rule out the religious books, as those books document actual historical events. So do I think Jews are God's chosen people, hell YES. In my own tradition, I'm also a special person. As long as you believe in the Jewish God, then YES, the Jews are the chosen people of their God, as boldly written in the Torah and Old Testament, but for the sake of Logic, let's leave out the religious views and focus only on the historical point of view.

Question 2: Do you believe that Palestinians have a right to sovereignty of their own?
All indigenous people have the right to self-determination. The Jews sought self-determination in 1937, but it was rejected by the Arabs. The Jews sought self-determination in 1947/1948, but it was once again rejected by the Arabs. This time around, the Arabs declared war and lost. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty, but they are fully responsible for their lack of independence today. The Arabs had gotten Jordan, which was 78% of Palestine. The British banned Jews from settling there, and so Jordan was 100% Arab. The UN proceeded to split the remaining 22% in half in 1947, giving 56% of it to the Jews and 44% to the Arabs. This was the best for the Arabs to accept their independence in peace, but they chose war instead. After they lost the war, they had 20 years, from 1948 - 1967, to declare their independence, but they instead prepared for another war, a war that changed the region forever.

Question 3: Do you believe that there have been wrongs on both sides?
You are right to claim that there have been wrongs on both sides. No one is above mistakes. There will always be miscalculations.

My brother, they would not believe in your analyses and facts once the prognoses do not support their expectation and jaundiced bias. They formulate and set up lies, believe in the lies, and parrot them expecting others to be gullible and naive enough to gulp them hook, line and sinker. When one insists on the bitter truth, they start throwing insults and calling one derogatory names.
If you ask them to provide the chronology and names of kings who had ruled over the contested land to confirm which side had superior historical sovereignty over it, they cannot mention one name , yet there is a long list of Kings of Israel who had ruled over Judea and Samaria, Hebron, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Beersheba etc, and they still claim the land does not belong to Israel.

Owologbo:
This guy you're engaging will defend the fulanis herdsmen displacing indigenous people in Nigeria when the indigenes come back to fight for their land in the future.
Stop entertaining him

My guy, I tire ooo.
Thanks jare

DeepSight:
The bold is evidence of your duplicity. That is not what you said. You said they should leave the land and find somewhere else to live. That is ethnic cleansing. "Leave Israel alone" has an entirely different meaning and you know it.

The red is beyond disingenous. Someone above, IdaytesJ29, urged you not to tell naked lies.

As for the Quoran, you cannot teach me about what a barbaric book it is. I know it is. Just as the Old Testament of the Bible which the Jews subscribe to is equally barbaric. These are terrible religions which have very lamentable moral codes in certain matters. I am not a religious person. But for you, Israel are God's people and God has promised them the land. I dont believe in any such thing.

That belief is what is at the root of your total support for Israel. And in that, you dont even care that they reject your Christ.

Please show me where I specifically said the Palestinians should find somewhere else to live.. I have not said so. But by their conduct, attitude and actions of trying to forcefully take Israel's and destroy it, if things continue like this, it may come to such a situation.
The Bible and Quran are not just religious books. They also contain records and evidence for good reference. The fight between Israel and the Palestinians is still going on because the people have deliberately refused to refer to the evidence and record in both books as a guide.

DeepSight:
There is nothing personal. I dont know you. But you have already shown duplicity in both saying that the Palestinians should simply leave (to where, heaven knows) and then claiming that Israel is willing to accept them into Israel. It is more than clear to me where you stand and I also don't believe that you have the knowledge necessary for this discussion.

You expect me to stand where you stand before you believe I have enough knowledge necessary for the topic? So funny.
I said Palestinians should leave Israel alone.
Israel gave them jobs and accomidation to live and work in Israel but they were throwing bombs, shooting and killing Israelis.

Go and read Quran Chapter 5 vs 20-22 and see what Allah said about the land of Israel . ]

DeepSight:
I was not addressing you and that is not the answer to the question. Of course at all events you would not ask yourself if Israel wants Palestine or Palestinians to exist at all.

Is this how you discus or debate online? The guy you tagged to ask the question also posted to contribute to the discussion going on on the same topic.
Okay, let me leave you in peace since it ibecoming a personal issue now.

Israel does not have any intention to fight or destroy people that live in peace with it. Egypt and Jordan are clear examples.

DeepSight:
I have to also ask - in this - do you mean wipe out the threat in the sense of wiping out Hamas, or perhaps creating a situation where the threat somehow ends diplomatically or some other sense in terms of the threat

OR -

Do you mean exterminate all Palestinians.

Antthing can happen in the extreme case if it becomes absolutely necessary. Israel itself is under serious threat
If your enemy wants to wipe you off the surface of the earth what do you do to him too,?

Don't you get it?
The Palestinians don't want the Jews to exist on the land where the whole of Israel is located at the moment. They believe the whole land belongs to them and have aligned themselves with a country like Iran that has declared openly that Israel must be destroyed and wiped off the surface of the earth. They meant it and have showed it time and time again. That is why they chant "from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free".
So Israel must therefore be ready to take any, every and all necessary steps or action to forestal that and ensure its existence.

Akhaz024:
Is Egypt and Jordan under occupation? No.
Palestinians are still under occupation without a recognized state. Without addressing that, expecting peace without resistance may be unrealistic.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon are the people and countries that have been living in that place
There was no single country or tribe or ethnicity called "Palestine" in ancient history. It never existed in the Bible or Quran
Some Arabs living on the land of Israel before Israel was declared a State who refused to accept the creation of Israel are the ones who have now adopted to call themselves "Palestine"/"Palestinians" and demanding that they want a separate State be created for them on the heart land of ancient Israeli cities like Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, Beersheba, Judea and Samaria etc.
That same area was under control of Jordan until 1967 and the Palestinians never demanded for a separate State when the area they are living on was under Jordan. But After Israel captured it from Jordan in the 1967 war, they started asking for a separate State for the same area . That should tell you it is all about the hatred for Israel

Idaytesj29:
Be he put it in you to wish the Palestinians be wiped out because it's not your god that created them? Lol 😂

If the Palestinians are ready to live with Israel in peace, they are totally welcome. Other Arabs that accepted to live in peace with Israel are enjoying all the rights and privileges of citizens of Israel, and they are the Arab Israelis in Israel today.

DeepSight:
I said equitable division.

That is even a non-starter. Equitable distribution of my land with people that do not want me to exist on earth? So that they can plant bombs and carry out missions against my family and people?

Idaytesj29:
And He was not the one who created you and the Arabs. It was ugly serpent horn headed Lucifer right?

Igbo Christians Lol 😂😆

When God created me, he did not put it in my heart and mind the satanic hatred to wish or say that the Jews must be wiped off the surface of the earth.
Evil befall those who wish evil for others!

If a Jew cannot sit in Jerusalem and decide who is a true Nigerian, or Ghanaian, or Kenyan, I cannot sit here and determine who is a Biblical Jew or not a Biblical Jew. It is a diversionary exercise
If you want to embark on that exercise, good luck. It would lead to nowhere!

Harnny:
So... its the biblical Jews that are in Israel currently?

A Jew is a Jew. An Arab is an Arab.
I don't dabble into the job of separating or determining who is a Biblical Jew or not Biblical Jew. It is God who created the Jews and He has not given me that assignment.

Idaytesj29:
It's not Israel's land. QED
If its your land, you won't be on exile. You won't need a Balfour declaration and a both to go there. You won't carry PALESTINIANS passport and spend Palestine currency before violent creation of Israel in 1948.

This is just a case of international land grabbing

You are ignorant. Don't you see people going on exile even in these modern times because of war, political persecution, etc.?
How can Jews be said to be ''grabbing'' land on which their ancestors, prophets and kings had lived, died and been buried thousands of years ago, from people who came to settle on same land recently?

The land of Israel (Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron etc) had existed for thousand years before the so called Balfour Declaration.
The word ''Palestine'', was originally a term for the administration of the territory covering land of Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and a small part of Egypt which were under the Romans. And Syria was like the ''administrative capital''.
Therefore, the Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Israelis all carried the same passport bearing ''Palestine''.
So Palestine was never a specific tribe or country or language!
But some people have now decided to adopt the name ''Palestine'' after the creation of Israel; in order to use it and deceive the world into believing that they own the land.
Historically, the Jews were usually outnumbered by the Arabs in population, so they had to compromise and concede on so many things along the line in order to bid their time before demanding what truly belongs to them.

The Arabs were happy when the Jews were sacked and went into exile and they never wanted them to come back. Therefore re-establishing the State of Israel was opposed and up till now, they would prefer that Israel never existed on the surface of the earth. Israel had to defeat them in bitter wars before some of them reluctantly accepted to live with Israel in the region.

DeepSight:
I am not even going back thousands of years. The simple point is denying a people their sovereignty and dignity. If you contain and occupy a people, they have a right to fight back. It's similar to the situation in apartheid South Africa and that's why SA stood up so much for Palestine.

Nelson Mandela while alive stood up for Palestine.

I hope you know these same Western Countries called Mandela a terrorist.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The South Africa issue is complex.
They have a history but it is different from Israel/Gaza. Israel is the owner of the land.
But SA govt. does not like Israel because they believe Israel supported the whites during the apartheid regime.
But the same South Africans are killing their fellow Africans in xenophobic attacks and nobody has been arrested and prosecuted. What do you say about that?

Idaytesj29:
They are all semites, the land belongs to them.

And a key question here, ARE THE PALESTINIANS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR EXILE?

ARE THE PALESTINIANS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR HOLOCAUST?

If not and you know they are not, why can't they live together without segregation? Why can't they live side by side as different states? Why must Israel exterminate them to create their own state.

We are against this now cos it was American blacks before, later it was black vs whites in South Africa now its Palestinians and the Jews. It could be you MikeApollo next, that's why we are speaking against his evil. It's not religious. Because America support Israel doesn't mean u should. Or anything they support is correct. They designated Mandela a terrorist, imagine that?

You are free to hold your opinion, cos regardless of it, the oppressed always get freed in the end. But that few months or years from now, will you be able to look at your comments today and be proud and be able to show your children that you supported genocide or ethnic cleansing.

Why must Israeli allow its land to be divided into separate States to please some people who say Israel must be wiped off the surface of the earth?
If you have a house, and you offer someone a room to stay but he/she rejects it and demands that the whole house must be broken and divided into 2 (against your wish), or you are driven out, would you agree?
How do you expect Israel to accept that Jerusalem would be divided into 2, and one part taken away from them?
How do you expect that the monuments, tombs and graves of the prophets and kings of Israel located in Bethlehem, Beersheba, Hebron, Judean and Samaria, Jerusalem etc. would be taken away from Israel and placed under the control and authority of Palestinians, Arabs?

DeepSight:
Oh so its kindness and charity.
And there is no special reason they cant do it themselves.

This discussion has failed and is worthless.

Okay, let them go and drive away the Israelis from the water and land and do it themselves. I hope that is what you want or want to hear.
Even some parts of America receive light/water supply from Canada. Nigeria also supplies electricity to Niger Republic.

DeepSight:
This is very very very wrong thinking. They are indeed owners and part owners. Another thing you assume is that the Jews of today are the same as the Israelites of old. They are not. They are a specie of European, for the most part.

I repeat: how long have white people been in America? Dont you think the Native Americans should also declare: we are back and drive them away? And yet, Arabs have been in that land since the Crusades!

Let me ask you. Hypothetcally, if a group of black Americans were to arrive in your village and tell you their ancestors owned it 400 years ago, what would you think? Okay, lets say they seize it by force, what would you think? Okay lets say you are trying to be equitable with them and they say, no, leave and go away. Go where?

When you say so insensitively - they should just go - go where? How do you say to people that have lived somewhere for one thousand years - just go? I mean go where?

You only single out the Israelis and say that they are no longer the Israelites of old. So let me ask you:
The neighbors of Israel in the Bible/Quran are Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria.
1. Are the Egyptians and Egypt today the same as in the Bible/Quran? Yes. Have you taken their land and shared it with other people? No
2. Are the Jordanians and Jordan today the same as in the Bible/Quran? Yes. Have you taken their land and shared it with other people? No
3. Are the Lebanese and Lebanon today the same as in the Bible/Quran? Yes. Have you taken their land and shared it with other people? No
4. Are the Syrians and Syria today the same as in the Bible/Quran? Yes. Have you taken their land and shared and it with other people? No

So why say now that Israel of today is different from Israel in the Bible? So why do you people want to single out Israel and twist the story when it concerns their land? It can only be because of envy, jealousy and covetousness over their priceless Biblical heritage!

As for my family land, anybody from anywhere is welcome to claim my family land in my village if they have superior, documented facts and evidence.

DeepSight:
You dont see the problem with the bold.
Anyway I don't think this conversation is going anywhere.

.
They don't have the resources or capacity to provide those things and Israel has been doing that for decades and would not poison them.

Harnny:
So... if i you become a Jew today, you have rights to all the cities you listed above?

You can become a Jew first, and let's see.
You think people become Jew just by word of mouth?

Why don't you ask the Arabs claiming those places if the places originally belong to them or you think there are no more Biblical Jews in Israel?

DeepSight:
Unfortunately Israel will never accept the one state solution. This is because they are ethnic supremacists who implement an apartheid system.

Israel allowed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to work and live in Israel, provided they would be peaceful. They were stopped due to the series of suicide bombings and attacks on Israelis.
The water, electricity in all the so called West Bank and Gaza is still supplied by Israel.

DeepSight:
I cant stress myself to respond point by point if your conclusion remains that the Palestinians should "leave and go away." I repeat: Go where?

They should do what the other Arab-Israelis did, by accepting to live in peace in Israel and enjoy the rights and privileges as Israelis citizens.
Even the so called ''West Bank'' land was captured from Jordan in the 1967 war, so it is even Jordan that should be dragging issues with Israel, but Jordan is not. So why didn't the Palestinians ask for a separate State from Jordan when Jordan was controlling the land?

DeepSight:
I repeat for emphasis: "God gave it to me" is not an argument on land matters. Not now, not before, not ever and not anywhere. Anyone frankly can say the same thing.



That is not my position. My position is that there must be equity among the peoples dwelling there. Possession of land is determined by length and originality of stay. Arabs have been there for over a thousand years. No one can argue that they are alien to the land. Jews have already taken the majority of the land. Do you have any idea how tiny Gaza is? Let me give you a practical example. It is less than four times the third mainland bridge in length. And yet it is barricaded and controlled by Israel as though the people there are dogs in a cage.

How about West Bank? The Istaeli's have populated it with ever increasing illegal settlements (illegal as declared by the UN - Mind you, Israel is a creation of the UN[/b]). Every attempt at Platestinian Statehood is blocked by Israel and the US.

Live and let live. You are the bigger power. You have the biggest power in the world behind you. These people have nothing. Share equitably. That is my position. But as long as you wish to imprison them, occupy them, snatch the little land they have left, you will never find peace.

This is where you all made a terrible mistake:
1. The [b]LAND and PEOPLE of Israel, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria had all been in existence before UN was formed. The other countries had a declaration of ''Statehood'' before Israel. But the Land of Israel had always been there, with the cities intact e.g. Jerusalem. If the other countries (from the time in the Bible and Quran) can become States without a problem, then why should Israel's statehood be different?
2. When the State of Israel was formed, Israel decided to offer full citizenship to all the Arabs who accept to recognize Israel and live peacefully in the country. Those who accepted are today living as Arab-Israelis and they enjoy the full rights and privileges of all other Israelis. They are about 3 million in population today. Nobody attacks or harass them.
3. Some Arabs rejected the idea, and claim that the land belongs to them and Israel must be wiped off. They claim that the whole land belongs to them. They include these so called ''Palestinians'' who chant ''from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free''.
4. If you go by the length and originality of stay, the Jews have lived in the land longer than the Arabs, and they have superior claim to originality. The history of the land is contained in both the Quran and Bible! Nobody can resolve the crisis meaningfully without reference to the 2 books but people are shying away from facing the truth.
5. What is ''West Bank''? It is a term that was coined recently in 1950s to describe the ''west bank area by the River Jordan''. It is never the original name of the area. The names of the towns in the area are Judea and Samaria, Hebron, Jericho, Beersheba, Bethlehem, etc. These are all Jewish names, which show that they belong to Israel. But there is a global propaganda to avoid using the original Jewish names, but call the place ''West Bank''. You ask yourself: why are they using English name for a place where the local language is not English? Why are they not using the local Jewish names of the towns/cities? This should tell you it is deliberate act to take away the land from the Jews by distorting history and erasing everything that link the Jews to the land.
6. The so called ''West Bank'' is the heart land of Israel where most of the Biblical monuments and tombs of the prophets and kings e.g. Sarah, Rebecca, Jacob, Joseph, etc are located. How can any reasonable, honest human being claim that these places belong to Arabs or Palestinians?
7. How would you expect Israel to support the creation of a state whose people have vowed to wipe off Israel ''from the river to the sea''? There were 2 attempts at creating a Palestinian state in the past and both were rejected by the Palestinians, because they don't see Israel as legitimate to co-exit with, but they want Israel to leave their land, ''from the river to the sea''! But right now, with Hamas, there is no way Israel would even allow a Palestinian state to be created near them.
8. Even the so called ''West Bank'' land was captured from Jordan in the 1967 war, so it is even Jordan that should be dragging issues with Israel, but Jordan is not. So why didn't the Palestinians ask for a separate State from Jordan when Jordan was controlling the land?

Idaytesj29:
Someone evicted from his home, village burn and settlement of settlers built on it, Palestinians held in Israeli prisons without trials or legal reps, IDF 24 hours raid of homes, schools and work places. Targeted assassination to decimate their population, no access to the sea, this people can even fish in their waters or farm the lands since 1948 and you said unprovoked?

That's a lot of provocation to me. You probably can't handle 10% of what these people are coping with for 80 years hoping one day God will end their oppression and make their oppressors powerless.

They enjoyed the spoils of the land of the Jews, and the attention and favours that places like Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc attracted for the so many years that the Jews were driven away by the Romans and went to into exile.
The Jews are now back, The Arab settlers should just leave and go. Claiming to be owners or part-owners of the land is the cause of the problem.

DeepSight:
Lol. You guys can be so simplistic. First, this has little to do with those hostages. Secondly, the biggest mistake Hamas can ever make will be to disarm. It's a non starter. No one leaves themselves that vulnerable.

Israel is living in peace with Egypt and Jordan, who do not raise militants to fight them. They share a peace accord!
Before this war, Palestinians were employed in their hundreds of thousands working/living in Israel.
If you bring peace, Israel will bring peace. If you bring war, you get it ten times from Israel!

DeepSight:
I am not sure you have a grasp of the history of this land.
PS: "God gave it to me" is not an argument.

Okay, fine.
People can go and collect the land from whom God says ''I have given the land to......'', and who says ''God has given the land unto me'' ...... and let's see their argument and reality.

You know quite well that the Jews were driven from the land by the Romans in 70AD and scattered across Europe. So you prefer they stay away so they can lose their land and never come back to the land of their great ancestors! Interesting1

DeepSight:
If you want to go that far back, who did the Jews seize those lands from. Canaanites.

Now listen, Arabs have lived side by side with Jews and Christians in that land for over one thousand years.

Jews were scattered by the Romans in 70 AD and lived mostly in diaspora in Europe.

You don't come back 2000 years later and claim you own it all. Land never works that way. Americans have not had America for up to 300 years. These people have lived in that land for up a thousand years.

So at best there should be equitable division. The apartheid system of containment in which the Jews own everything and enslave the Palestinians is injustice and will always generate rightful resistance.

.

The Canaanites have been conquered and they no longer exist! So the land belong to the Jews, until the Canaanites are able to come back and take over the land from the Jews!
Both the Arab and Christians have the Quran and Bible, which they both believe are God's Holy Books. It is clearly stated in both holy books that the land is given to Israel. There is no Palestinian mentioned anywhere.
A land with solid historical record and prophetic insights in both the Quran and Bible cannot be wished away by those who own it. It will never happen even it takes 1million years for them to come back to their land.

Harnny:
no be Africa the biblical jew from come? Tell me, are Jews of a tribe or of a religion?

Answer the question and don't bring Africa into it. There is no African country fighting Israel over the land in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jericho, Beersheba, Bethlehem, etc.
The Jews are a tribe and their traditional religion is Judaism, before Christianity came

DeepSight:
No. The trouble Palestinians are facing dates back to 1948. This in no way started on October 7, which was a response and not a first strike.

Was the land that they are fighting over created in 1948?
Who were the owners and rulers of the land for thousands of years before 1948?
Did King David, Solomon, Hezekiah, not own and rule the land of Jerusalem, Hebron, Jericho, Beersheba etc long before 1948? So why do you start from only 1948?

DeepSight:
I am sorry you can't discuss an event outside it's context.

You should ask if an occupied people have the right to fight back against their occupier.

If a foreign nation seizes your territory and holds you hostage and occupies your land, don't you have the right to fight back. And when you do, should everyone then say you started the fight?

Which land is being occupied by who?
Jerusalem, Hebron, Jericho, Bethlehem, Beersheba etc are all Jewish towns and cities that have existed for thousands of years before 1948, with a long list of Jewish Kings like David, Solomon, Hezekiah etc.
So who are the occupiers?

JONSYN7154:
It's harms Way.

Idea is need ... (dont bother to add the "ed''.)

DeepSight:
October 7 was not the start

Okay, we are listening; you can tell us the start.
And don't start from 1948, because there had been Jerusalem, Beersheba, Hebron, Jericho, Bethlehem etc thousands of years before 1948

PepeXKermit:
So 1200 lives is equal to 60k palestinian lives abi? This injustice you people are cheering on will reach your doorstep one day.. besides, go and read about the hannibal directive where those 1200 numbers only 500-600 of them were actually killed by hamas, the rest was the IDF.

1,200 lives is the beginning. The end can be a 1million.
That is why the Yoruba people have an adage that says that ''we only know the start of a war, but no one knows where it would end''.
It is the bitter reality of wars; that is why people always preach against starting a war. The end is always more bitter than the beginning. Most wars are like that: e.g. the atrocities/deaths that led to the start of the Biafra war was far less than the atrocities/deaths that happened during the real war.

You cannot expect soldiers at war to be counting the number of dead people and stop the war at a number, for as long as they can still see that the enemies are still fighting and shooting at them to kill them.

And by the way, why are you people deceived by the 60,000 Palestinians? So no single Hamas member have been killed? Or all the thousands of Hamas terrorists killed have also been counted as ''Palestinians"? Make you dey deceive yourselves.

DeepSight:
Lol. You guys can be so simplistic. First, this has little to do with those hostages. Secondly, the biggest mistake Hamas can ever make will be to disarm. It's a non starter. No one leaves themselves that vulnerable.

So let Hamas enjoy what is coming for them and let no one shout ''genocide''.
If you buy market, you carry am for your head. Simple!