₦airaland Forum

@Deepsight,

Hi and happy new year. Thanks for your questions. I will address some that I consider to be of spirtual benefit as follows:

Hi Nwankwo -

Many thanks for all your wise inputs always -

Apologies: but i will return to a subject hinted at above by another poster, which i have raised with you before.

At the very outset, i fear that the subject may displease or irritate you: and i earnestly tender sincere apologies in advance if this is the case: especially since this is not the first time i am raising it with you; you may justifiably feel that i am flogging a dead horse or being unnecessarily insistent.

No, I am not irritated or displeased for why should I be irritated by what you or any other human being honestly feel about some spirtual issues. Of course you are overflogging the issue but that is how you honestly feel about. I have previously advised you that whenever you come across things that you do not understand or uncomfortable with, just empty yourself of all thoughts and send up a prayer that is not clothed in words or thoughts to God and you will surely get an answer.

I am aware that human beings have the tendency to hero-worship - especially the oft repeated tendency throughout history to elevate spiritual or political leaders to the status of gods or God.

The Buddha, who is not recorded to have said a single word about God, or any gods for that matter, is nowadays worshipped as a God in most Buddhist societies, as people kneel before his statue in Prayer to Him. This for me is one of the best examples of the human tendency to deify: for the Buddha spoke of four noble truths which centre around detachment from material things - and this message was enough for hundreds of millions of people today and through history to regard him as God fitting for worship.

It therefore can hardly be surprising that the more passionate life of Jesus from Nazareth would evoke similar declarations of his being God or a deity: notwithstanding his several recorded proclamations to the contrary.

Yes human beings have such a problem of deification of spiritual leaders but that is simply because they spirtual faculties meant for discernment have either been blocked or not functioning properly. If any seeker genuinely need to know who Buddha is, it will be revealed to them. The same goes for other servants of God. I know that Buddha is a human spirit who fufilled his mission as a prophet of God. I also know that Jesus Christ is a part of God the Father, hence a son of God. I also know that the the Holy Spirit is a part of God the Father. You too is capable of such knowlege and all you need to do is to send up prayers as I said above. To discuss how I come to be aware of these things may satisfy curiosity but is of no spirtual benefit to readers. I also know that your spirit is capable of finding the correct answer but before then you have to spiritually take a position that you do not know and are seeking for clarification. Then the scales will fall from your inner eyes.

In this I am carefully aware that you have not (as yet) stated him to be God per se: but have stated him to be the Son of God. You have also stated the Holy Spirit to be a second son of God.

Given that I have detailed my concerns over the deity of Christ extensively on this forum, and stated clearly my perceptions of him (which may be wrong), I will leave Jesus aside for a moment.

I am aware, just as you are, that the second “Son of God” said to be the Holy Spirit is claimed by the Grail Message, to be Mr. Abd Ru Shin, the authour of the Grail Message.

This is the singular factor that has restrained me from any further steps towards becoming a Cross Bearer: for I possess a passionate and indissoluble revulsion against what I see as human claims to deity: and worse still: human claims to be the ultimate deity: God.

There is only God the Father. Jesus is a "small" part of God the Father that is personal in the work of Love. In otherwords, Jesus is the conformation of the unsubstantiate love of God the Father. Holy Spirit is again a "small" part of God the Father that is personal in the work of creation. The Holy Spirit is a living conformation of the unsubstantiate will of God the Father. Thus Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not emanation of God the Father but parts of God the Father that are personal in the works of love and creation respectively. Thus the sons of God are inseparable and one with God the Father. Simply put it is God the Father that is God the Father, it is a part of God the Father that is  Jesus, it is a part of God the Father that is the Holy Spirit. Because the sons of God are small parts of God the Father, God the Father is greater (in human conception) than the sons of God. Thus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit will be nothing without God the Father for what makes them  sons of God is God the Father that is in them. The separation of the sons of God from God the Father is due to limitation in understanding of creatures for these events are beyound the capacity of anything created no matter how blessed. Only a son of God has the innate ability to bring about such knowlege through revelation. Even then the human spirit will still have problem with it until he is permitted a spiritual experience of it that silences all doubt.

A crossbearer is one who have truely experienced the highest recognition of God and have asked God for the grace to live only according to the laws God and to be permitted to serve HIM and his sons for all eternity. In answer to such a praayer an equal armed cross enclosed in a circle is spiritually bestowed on such a one. As long as such a human being lives according to the laws of God, he or she bears that sign on his fore head and this sign is clearly visible to all with pure clairvoyant abilty. Thus it has in reality no connection with the Grail Movement. All genuine servants of God bear this sign whether or not they have physically come across the Grail Message on Earth or not.   

As I said earlier; I am aware that you have stated Abd Ru Shin to be a “Son of God” just like Jesus. I am aware that the Grail Message states that all of creation was made from the radiations from Abdrushin as he stood at the summit of Creation (as Parsifal) just outside the Divine Sphere.

1.   This falls counter to the biblical suggestion that Creation was made through the word: i:e – Jesus Christ.

2.   This seems to be an usurpation of the role scripturally credited to another entity – Jesus.

3.   For all purposes from the human perspective: this equates Mr. Abd Ru Shin with God himself; or rather – presents him as the highest Manifestation of God that can ever be seen.

I am at odds that the doctrine of the Trinity is preached by the Grail Message with Mr. Abd Rushin being the third member of the trinity as the Holy Spirit.

I am also firmly aware that the Grail Message specifically states that no member of the trinity is superior or inferior to the other: that they being one, are all equal: this causes me greater apprehension as it underlines the fact that Mr. Abd Rushin thereby claims to be equal with God: a fact that Jesus specifically denied in his case.

I will not be satisfied with a response which states that the authour did not claim to be God because I do wonder what else may be gleaned from a statement that “a part of God was severed and anchored outside the divine sphere” and that that part is Mr. Abd Rushin – which is what the Grail Message conveys.

No, I have not revealed the identity of AbdruShin. I do not answer questions on the identity of AbdruShin since it is my view that each person should find that out for him or herself. No, creation did not come into existence through the radiation of AbdruShin. Creation came into existence through the radiation of the Holy Spirit which was embodied in the divine words " Let there be Light". The primordial spiritual vessel or cloak of the Holy Spirit is Parsifal. Thus the Holy Spirit radiates through Parsifal which is his living primordial spiritual cloak or anchorage. Only the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. Neither AbdruShin nor Parsifal is a part of Trinity and it is erroneous to suggest so. The Grail Message did not state that AbdruShin or Parsifal is a part of Trinity. AbdruShin never claimed to be God and I am at a loss how you arrived at that conclusion. Again the part of God that was severed and anchored outside the divine sphere is not Abdru Shin but the Holy Spirit. I refer you to the lecture "Stranger". If your eyes are open you may then see the radiation connetion between the HolySpirit, Parsifal and AbdruShin and that may help to clear many a puzzle.

Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are living words of God. The word of God that is Jesus brought redemption to humanity by his mission of love. The word of God that is the Holy Spirit brought creation into existence, maintains and sustains all creations. The Holy Spirit is the King of creation and Jesus Christ is the King outside of creation, that is in the divine world. Thus spiritually,  the Holy Spirit is the out born son of God and Jesus Christ is the inborn son of God. The Grail Message teaches that God the Father is greater than his sons-Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. See my answer on Trinity above.

.   God is, yes? If this is the case can gender be ascribed to God? I have no problems with God being described as “the father” but my concern is –

2.   Why are the only two “emanative elements” of God – (Jesus, and as claimed by the Grail Message, Abd Rushin) both male? On an esoteric philosophical view, it would have seemed more natural to me if there was one male and one female: as a sign of the duality inherent in divinity and existence of which all that we see is a reflection. Is God somehow averse to or removed from the feminine? Why is it that these prime elements of God are always said to be incarnated on earth as males? Could this not be a sign of the human culture of a male dominated society seeping into dogma in the form of supposed male scions of God?

I do not see how my answer to this question will benefit you spiritually and thus I decline to give an answer.

I am always deeply suspicious about ANY message which culminates in the divinity of the messenger: for the truth I believe, which you have in the past affirmed – is that no human being needs any such knowledge of identities in order to ascend – why then all the claims to divinity by the author of the Grail Message? Could it be that for him, being recognised as God is important?

I must reiterate that the message resolved most of my burning questions about life, but it honestly repulsed me with the assertion of the divinity of the Author, Mr. Abd Rushin, and the fact that a reading of the message virtually discloses Mr. Abd Ru shin to be God himself.

I have addressed some of these concerns above. If one lives according to the laws of God he or she will either here or hereafter find answers and experience the necessary spiritual recognitions. Thus do not trouble yourself if at the moment certain things are unclear or raises doubt in you. Hold on to what you can grasp at the moment and do not accept what I or anybody else tell you which is not in harmony with the vibrations of your soul. Until you you are permitted the necessary spiritual experiences, honestly hold on to your reservations. My prayerful thoughts accompany you. Stay blessed!

tiatma:
@M_Nwankwo

Thanks for obliging and sticking to a sentence with the "your-self-discovery" question . . .

Asking "Who you are" is synonymous with the question "Adam where are thou . . . "

The answer to the question wasnt for my benefit but for you and the observants

It was posed for you to reveal the knowledge you have of yourself and how you generally understanding yourself.

It was a self awareness, self discovery or self recognition question.

In your response "I am a human spirit . . . " was the first part of your sentence.

Human spirit? Hmm, I can live with that, so I'll let it roll. For now, maybe

" . . . recognised God and his two sons - Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit" was the latter part of your response

I bet you've guessed or understood the cause of at least one of the uneasinesses I had

and no doubt believe you will clarify the assertion about God having two sons - i.e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit

Hi again tiatma. I have nothing more to add to my previous answer to your questions. Best wishes.

tiatma:
@M_Nwankwo



The texts in bold from the above gives me the heebie jeebies . . .

. . . No spiritual mentor nor master? God and his two sons, Jesus and the Holyspirit? etc

Indulge me please. In one sentence, who are you?

Hi tiatma. I did not intend to cause you or any other reader heebie jeebies by my answer to Krayola. Although who I am is not important or necessary for ones salvation, I will answer you. I am a human spirit who have recognised God and his two sons- Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and strive to live only according to the will of God. Best wishes.

JeSoul:
There is so much you have said here Nwankwo that I'm going to take some time to think and chew on. I will be back to pick your brain a little more on these issues, but thank you so so much for this. The simplicity and honesty with which you approach spiritual issues is truly a gift. Everyday we have many learned posters on NL, well educated and armed with a considerable grasp of the dictionary but yet it is all hot air that dissipates quickly, I am yet to be touched and moved by them as I am with your posts. I thank you sir and I will be back!

Hi JeSoul. Thanks for your kind words. Stay blessed!

@Krayola

@ Mnwankwo. . . . .  How r u? Hope all is well

Hi Krayola. Thanks, I am fine. Before I offer my views on your questions, I must commend your depth of thought. JeSoul and other have pointed it out and it is not flatery. Had you done your undergraduate studies in biosciences instead of religion, I would have lobied you to come to my lab and do your postgraduate studies. It will be a privelage to supervise some one with such analytical skills. Maybe you should still consider a carier in academics/research.

What do you think of polytheism?

In your opinion, are polytheists, that do not believe in one supreme God, misguided? If so, what about their spirituality, is, in your opinion, misguided/nonsense?

If, say, their faiths endorse a lot of the virtues we like to think of as "Godly", or "Christlike", but do not discourage stuff like, polygamy, or even animal sacrifice, will you accept that their spiritual claims are as valid as yours?

There is only one God but this one God has created innumerable servants. In the spiritual evolution of man, their are various stages of development, the last and final stage is the recognition of one God. The topic is so vast that it is not possible for me to discuss the details here. But let me say that polytheism is just one of the several developmental stages in spirititual evolution of man.  If one honestly and sincerely can only recognise gods and goddeses, then therir is nothing wrong with it. If they continue to progress, they will some day come to the highest recognition, that is the recognition of one supreme God and the previous gods and goddesses are just creatures and servants of  the one supreme God. Thus they are not misguided but just at a lower stage of spiritual development. What will be wrong is if such a polytheist stagnates and refuse to develop further. Such stagnation will automatically result in a narrowing of vision and evil ideas and beliefs will crip in and muddle the pure polytheistic beliefs. Thus instead of the gods and goddesses, evil replica of these genuine gods and goddeses arise and they will begin to worship them. Pure polythestic beliefes will only look to the gods and goddesses for guidance and not worship. Indeed even a faint desire to worship these genuine gods and goddeses leads to a loss of connection and in their absence, the evil replica will appear claiming that they are the real gods and should be worshiped. They demand animal or even human sacrifice, this is the beginning of how various false deities first originated, I thought I have discussed this in greater detail on the thread on egregores that one contributor raised. Thus a pure polytheistic belief is a necessary step in spirtual evolution but if it is corrupted as I explained above, then it  is wrong and leads not to the Supreme God but to darkness. If it is pure it will finally lead the believer to the ONE supreme GOD. Thus any step in the spiritual evulution that is kept pure is a necessary step towards the recognition of the one Supreme God. What holds true for pure polytheism is also true for other steps in mans spiritual evolution. If a believer with pure polythesistic beliefs progresses polygamy, animal sacrifice etc will fall away of its own accord. Thus whatever a man honestly believes should not be regarded as nonsensense or misguided for that is their own stage. One who have attained the highest recognition of God will not lookdown or ridicule their beliefs but will guide them from their polytheistic belief to the recognition of the one sumpreme God. A child in primary school can be told that after pouring away the water in the cup that the cup is empty and that is correct. In high school the same child can be thought that the cup is not actually empty but have air and that is correct and the same child in the university can be told that an empty cup not only have air and other elements but contain microbes and that is also correct. But it will be wrong to teach a five year kid that an empty cup of water is not empty or for a university student to believe that an empty cup of water is empty. I hope you can link this crude analogy to what I explained on spiritual evolution.

I'm guessing you believe in different kinds of "spiritual beings', good, bad, indifferent, etc. Were these ideas innate or self generated (in maybe your personal "spiritual development", or did you come across them at some point in, say, literature, under the influence of a spiritual mentor, or some other external source?

I was born with the ability to sense, see, and hear things that people regard as supernatural or non-physical. These innate abilities led me to the work  In The Light of Truth-The Grail Message. In the Grail Message I found all that I need to know and serve God. As I strove to live according to the will of God my natural spiritual abilities got transformed permitting me to know many a thing that is often regarded as mystery. I have no spiritual mentor nor master. I only strive to seve God and his two sons, Jesus and the Holyspirit. Stay blessed.

mantraa:
The Harvard prayer experiment was a scientific study to qualify and quantity the effects (if any) of prayer to affect people.

With support from the Templeton Foundation, cardiologist Herbert Benson and his colleagues randomly assigned 1802 cardiac bypass patients to one of three conditions:

    * Group 1: those told they may or may not be prayed for (and who weren't)
    * Group 2: those told they may or may not be prayed for (and who were)
    * Group 3: those told they would be prayed for (and who were)

For those facing surgery or battling disease, the prayers of others can be a comfort. Researchers in the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), the largest study to examine the effects of intercessory prayer—prayer provided by others—evaluated the impact of such prayer on patients recovering from coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. The STEP team, composed of investigators at six academic medical centers, including Baptist Memorial Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee; Beth-Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts; Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota; St. Joseph’s Hospital in Tampa, Florida; Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C; and the Mind/Body Medical Institute, found that intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications. The study also found that patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse. The paper appears in the April issue of American Heart Journal. “The primary goal of STEP was to evaluate whether intercessory prayer or the knowledge of receiving it would influence recovery after bypass surgery,” said co-author Jeffery A. Dusek, Harvard Medical School instructor of medicine and Associate Research Director at the Mind/Body Medical Institute. Each year, 350,000 Americans have coronary artery bypass graft surgery. Though medical techniques and post-operative care have improved dramatically in recent years, the surgery is stressful. Earlier studies have shown that many patients enlist friends and family to provide private prayer for support during surgery and recovery. STEP investigators enrolled 1,802 bypass surgery patients from six hospitals and randomly assigned each to one of three groups: 604 patients received intercessory prayer after being informed they may or may not receive prayers (Group 1); 597 patients did not receive prayer after being informed they may or may not receive prayer (Group 2); and 601 patients received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive it (Group 3). Caregivers and independent auditors comparing case reports to medical records were unaware of the patients’ assignments throughout the study. The study enlisted members of three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant, to provide prayer throughout the multi-year study. The researchers approached other denominations, but none were able to make the time commitments that the study required.

Results

Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups. Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. (13 in group 1, 16 in Group 2, and 14 in Group 3)

Not only did prayer not help the patients, those that were told they were being prayed for experienced more complications.
Prayers don't help heart surgery patients.


http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Harvard_prayer_experiment

I am aware of the Havard experiment and have read the original paper myself. It is a welcome step but I could point out many flaws in the design of the experiment. I will not do so because my sensing is that it is unnessary. I am privelaged to have considerable experience in both the spiritual as well as in science and I am sure that if you do not end your investigation with just the paper you cited but continiue to investigate, you will find. Who knows, someday you may cross the path of one called by God and your present views may change. Best wishes.

It is incorrect to assume that genuine faith has no evidence. On the contrarly genuine faith is inseparable with clear and indisputable evidence. But the evidence must be sort in its own kind. If one makes a purely spiritual claim, then it is meaniless looking for the evidence in physical matter. Because the skeptics refuse to acknowledge the existence of anything else outside what the physical organs can percieve, then they dismiss everything imperceptible to the brain or instruments that are meant to improve them as myths. Even though the skeptics cannot observe the non-material worlds, they can emperically verify the interaction or the effects of these non-material worlds on the material worlds. Just as an example, if I make a claim that I am permitted to interact with some servants of God called nature beings and they do show me different herbs and how to combine them to treat various illnes. Skeptics or atheists cannot investigate whether or not I interact with these nature beings but they can investigate the success rate of my herbal prescriptions for various illness. If after several independent investigation, and they found that the success rate of my herbal prescriptions is beyound what chance alone can explain, then if they are sincere in their investigation, they should seriously consider the possiblility that my knowledge of the healing secrets of herbs may have been obtained from my interaction with these invinsible servants of God. I encourage sincere atheists,agnostics and skeptics to engage in this sort of investigation instead intellecual debates and arguments. One good advantange of this sort of investigation is that it will show that a majority of these beyound the physical claims are false or can be expalined by chance and that the claimants have no genuine abilities in the first place. But I am certain that they will also find in few cases clear evidence of genuine abilities and that in these few cases, the blessed ones can actually draw on the power of God and bring effect that people consider to be miracles. Go out into the field, into life and investigate, then the bandage may fall, a gate may open that brings to the honest skeptic or atheist or agnostic experiences that may lead him to the recognition of God. Best wishes.

I'm confused a bit here. So you believe one cannot truly have faith in something they haven't experienced?

Do you subscribe to the biblical definition of faith? that is it the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"? Thanks!

Hi JeSoul. Yes I believe that genuine faith is a consequence of ones spirit experiencing the will of God. I intentionally choose to describe faith as something which only the human spirit can have. Thus only those experiences which the spirit is permitted to have gives it the grace of genuine faith. This presupposes that only the man or woman whose spirit is alive, that is, one whose spiritual faculties are open and active can have genuine faith. When God created us, he equipped us (the spirit) with faculties that will help us to recognise God and his will. These faculties allow the human spirit no matter where he is to experience God and his will just like other creatures of God that are already living in heaven, the kingdom of God. Thus no man can go astray or be incabable of recognising God except he wilfully choose to do so. Only when a human spirit by his own free decision choose to block these faculties of his spirit is the recognition of God made impossible. Thus my view is that genuine faith in God is only possible through a connection to God and that connection to God is only via the faculties of the spirit. In otherwords, it is the spirit that has the grace of having a connection with God. If the spirit is alive, then the connection to the power of God is extablished and maintained and if the spirit is "dead" or lukeworm, then the connection to the power of God and concomitant experiences due to this connection is severed. I agree with Apostle Paul on faith but my perception of what he meant by those words may be quite different from what is widely believed. My view is that Apostle Paul is saying that true faith as well as true experiences belong to the spirit. Thus what the spirit has already seen, the brain is not conscious of it and is still hoping for it. The evidence that the spirit has seen, the brain and its eyes have not yet seen. My view is that Apostle Paul is telling people that if they are to have the grace of genuine faith, they should not rely on the limited and distorted perception of the brain and physical organs rather they should rely on the spirit which is the breath of life from God. Now back to the example of life after death. Because this is a public forum I am uncomfortable with sharing my many encounters with those who have departed this earthly life. Thus I will use a hypothetical example. Imagine a man or woman who believes in life after death because the bible, koran or other sacred books said so. Such a man do not have faith because he has not the necessary spirtual experience to transform the belief into an irrevocable faith. Then imagine that the spiritual eyes or ears or senses were momentrily opened and the man suddenly sees or senses departed souls, angels and other creatures of God. Then imagine that such a man has not just one but thousands of such experiences. His belief has been transformed to irrevocable faith or conviction and even if the whole world says that life does not exist after death it has no effect on his conviction. Indeed he is indifferent to whether the whole world agree with him or disagree with him. A better picture may be learned from the events of Pentecost. I can say that prior to pentecost, the disciples believed in the son of God but with the pentecost, they had faith for the power of the HolySpirit has transformed their belief to faith with attendant abilities that became manifest. Stay blessed.

and I will like to flip the question back to you Nwankwo. Why do you believe the things you believe? also by faith?

Hi JeSoul. Before I directly address your question, let me explain what I believe faith is. Faith is an experiencing of the power of God or the will of God by the spirit of man. In otherwards, faith is the conviction that becomes an integral part of the the human spirit as a consequence of such a spirit experiencing the power of God and how this power of God creates, sustains and maintains all existence. A man has faith when his spirit has recognised the will of God and willingly adapt his will to be in sync with the will of God. Such a connection with God permits the human spirit the grace to have extraordinary insight into the laws of God that govern all creations and how these laws manifest in both the so called natural worlds and supernatural worlds. Thus what such a man of faith believes in cannot be contradicted by past, present or future development in both the physically visible worlds and the invincible supernatural worlds, and such a genuine faith will always be in harmony with love, justice and purity. Whatever is not imbued with love, justice and purity is not from God. Ofcourse people can intellectually argue that these concepts are relative but when in sober moments, most people will very easily recognise what is not love, what is impure and what is unjust.  Although it may be viewed as presumptous by others, a man that has faith in God as I described above can say with certainty what is possible and what is impossible. But above all, such a one radiates love in his being and even though he may be physically old, disabled or sick, the eyes glitter with such a radiance akin to a greeting from heaven.

Based on my crude description of what I know faith is, I can then say that I believe in God by faith. A man who believes in life after death but have not personally experienced it can not be said to have faith. Faith becomes alive in a man who have personally experienced life after death and can give irrefutable evidence of it if a questioner seriously want a clarification on such a matter. Thus contrarly to what is generally believed, genuine faith can produce tangible, clear cut evidence if the enquirer is seriously seeking for the truth. Stay blessed.

I think that you guys should respect JeSoul beliefs instead of questioning the rationality of her beliefs. My perception is that she is a very honest person and should be granted the privelage of taking her by her own words. She has clearly stated that her religious conviction is based on faith, and one does not need to be a seer to see that her religious conviction have drawn her closer to God. I do not think that the door to God is opened or closed based on whether one thinks virgin birth is possible or not. Each honest human being reflects his or her level of spiritual maturity and as long as such a one remains honest and open to guidance from God, he or she will one day have multiple confirmatory experiences on anything that has been a mystery or a puzzle. Personally I do not sense that virgin birth is possible but it will be wrong to suggest that one who honestly believe (like JeSoul) that the son of God was concieved physically without the fusion of egg and sperm is irrational. The much one can say is that one does not believe that it is possible and then give reasons for saying so. I do not think there will be much conflict if we state what our beliefs are and why will believe so. Problems arise when we openly or surreptitiously try to force our convictions on others or demonize those whose views appear incompatible to our own. Best wishes.

Hi again Rossike. Let me make some brief comment on some of your postulations

Absolutely. WE are God. Just as a drop of water is one with the sea. A drop of Consciousness is God. God would represent the Source Consciousness, which has deliberately created individualized units of consciousness for each to experience, some under an illusion of separateness.

In reality, all are ONE. Humans, animals, trees, insects, demons, angels, 'gods', deities etc. It couldn't be any other way. This also means that for each one of us, there is absolutely NOTHING in this world or the next, that we should be fearful of. How can God be afraid of His own Self?

If you understand that everything 'seen' and 'unseen' is of God, then you know you are God, and therefore, cannot ''die'', and thus, nothing should ever scare you.

Now you have admitted that you and indeed everything else is God or at least individualised "units" of God. So HIV, Ebola and other myriads of pathogens are also God. Even artificially synthesized organisms from Craig Venters lab are also God. I ask again, what is God doing as HIV infecting and destroying the bodies of other individualised "units" of God. Fear is not part of this thread and I will not dwell on it.

Humans are souls temporarily occupying a dense physical coat which helps them experience reality in this dimension or vibrational state.

God basically created from His Consciousness, individualized, autonomous units of consciousness which we refer to as souls.

The idea that we are inherently ''separate'' from God or from each other is what leads to evil.

Evil, fear and hatred are a playing out of the notion that we are separate.

Good deeds and Love are a playing out of the fact that we are One.

How is that these individualised "units" of God are capable of fear, evil and hatred. How can God experience illusion? How can infinite counsciouness as a whole or as individualized experience illusion? What are illusions made of. Are they also counsciousness?

One is to imagine. The other is to think

I do not think you answered my question. Maybe I reframe the question. How are thoughts and imagination produced and what is the source of both. To which plane or world of existence do thought and imagination belong?

Certain activities in the physical world are known to have a vibrational resonance with multi-dimensional reality. Numbers, certain signs and symbols, ley lines, etc, are known to create portals of communication with the REAL world ''out there'', as well as intelligences which reside therein, both ''good'' and ''bad''.

You'll have to ask God Himself why He allowed for this ''quirk''. My feeling is He could not have us totally cut off from Himself, being aspects of Him.

Another way to see it is that since Thought, or Belief creates ''reality'', the practitioners of these arts actualise their efforts by their deep belief in its efficacy.

Again illusions are creating portal of communication to the real world according to you. Maybe you can see the contradiction in your premise. You have alreay claimed to be "God" or at leat individualised units of "God" and then you are asking me to ask God. By asking me to ask God, you seem to again separate yourself from God and yet in the same post you claimed that individualised units of God is inseparable from God.

I stated above that the nucleus was a ''mini atom''. meaning it comprised empty space. This is all scientifically verifiable

What is an empty space? Since you keep bringing science, it will be appreciated if you cite peer reviewed scientific articles supporting your postulation.

On the contrary, ''time'' is within the concept of NOW.

How is now within the concept of time?. One or more example from your own experience at whatever plane of existence will be helpful.

But the mere fact of the relativity of time means there is NO time!!! It is all relative to the observer's perspective, be it in a dream, or in what we consider ''real life''. (By the way, it is reported that when we transit, this experience feels exactly like a dream).

As Einstein noted, when you are doing something you like, 'time flies', and when you're in a dentist's chair, it seems to 'pass' very slowly. When you panic, time seems to pass very quickly, but not when you stay calm. The very fact that time is relative to the observer means there is no time. It is simply a perception and not 'real'.

Our manufactured official 'time' is linked to the earth's rotation, and when THAT changes, so does our 'time'. In the USA, you can drive across a state border and be in a different hour, and when you fly across the International Date Line, you are instantly in a different DAY.

Why? Because time is an illuuuuuuuuuusion.

There is no such thing as ''time''.

We note the passage of ''time'' because we are in a dense, and extremely unhappy state of existence in comparison to the bliss of Ultimate reality, from whence we came.

In states of Ultimate bliss, there is no awareness of ''time''.

And where there is no awareness of time, there is NO time.
/quote]

How is relativity of "Time" equivalent to no "Time". Give just one example of no "Time". All the examples you gave are indicating relativity of time rather than no time. Is it not possible that what you consider to be infinite consciouness may be finite consciouness to another. Do you not think that where X is unaware, Y is very aware of time, thus what is identified as ultimate reality by some may be experienced as no ultimate reality by others. Thus what one seeker experience as ultimate bliss is not even experienced as bliss by another.

From our human perspective, there often seems to be no sense to any of this. But I think the  job of Consciousness is to Create. Consciousness is nothing if it does not Create.

You are nothing if you wake up everyday and stare out your bedroom window.

You have admitted that it does not make sense from the human perspective. Does it make sense from the perspective of infinite consciousness and if so how? Best wishes.

Hi Rossike. Thanks for your reply. I make some brief comment on your reply.

Ultimately there is a Source of all consciousness. Some know it as ''God''. But God only ''creates'' through Thought. We are the imagination of God playing itself out I believe.

I also believe that all souls (or artificially individualized units of consciousness) have the power to create and influence creation via Thought. Thought comprises the building blocks of the universe, not ''matter''.

Matter is only Thought viewed in density and form.

You earlier described humans as infinite consciousness and now you say that the source of all counsciousnes is "God". Thus you seem to be suggesting that counsciousness is "God". If in your postulation, humans and indeed all things are in reality consciouness, then you are simply saying that all things in reality is "God". If humans are God, how then are humans (which you seem to suggest is God) become the imagination of God. How can infinite consciousness become the imagination of infinite consciousness? What is imagination and what is thought? Are you suggesting that thought has no form if viewed outside the five physical senses?

I believe they temporarily DISABLE the limited program, and then INSTALL a more powerful upgrade, in order to access better, wider reality. The installation can happen in various ways, viz:

Incantations

Rituals

Prayer

Meditation/trance

Blood Sacrifice

Hallucinogenics/Herbalism


These activities are known to open up communication portals between the 5 sense universe we 'inhabit', and the interdimensional universe.

What program has an individual using hallucinogenic drug installed? Are you suggesting that even anasthetics used during surgery is an installation of a program to access better reality since patients experience dreams and trance. You say that physical things are illusions and yet you suggest that the same physical things such as blood sacrifice, herbs, drugs, rituals etc can open the door to experience reality. How can illusions now open the door to experience reality?

The physical realities are an illusion viewed with or without non-physical senses.

The physical organs of perception, as well as instruments meant to improve on them, are  illusions.

It all starts with understanding that atoms are empty space, and therefore, all appearances of solidity and ''physicality'' are based on Thought, which ''creates'' what we call ''physical reality''.

What is the evidence that physical realities are illusions. Even with your example of an atom, you stated that it has a nucleus and yet you go on and keeping saying that an atom is empty. Why do you ignore the nucleus?

No. In order to know what the apple is made of, what its constituents or 'building blocks' are, we use a microscope. When you do this, you find the apple, like every other physical object, is composed of atoms. Each atom is mere empty space with an electron spinning round its nucleus. The electrons themselves are empty space, as is the nucleus. Basically when you magnify it to the highest, you see an apple is made of nothing. It is an optical illusion. Same as our human bodies, our cars, and our shoes.

The example I used with an apple is to show that it is meaniless to compare the tangibility of things using different instruments. If I give a lens grounded for a shortsighted person to one that is long sited and the later does not see anything with the lens, is it correct for the long sighted person to declare that because he sees or recognises nothing with the wrong lens, then,  whatever is out there is an optical illusion?

Now is Now. Past and future refer to linear time

What does NOW refer to or do you deny that NOW is within the concept of "time".

In our 'physical world', linear time exists as part of the program. Outside the program everything is happening at the same time.

I know it's hard to perceive of this from our linear dimension, but those are the reports we've received from thousands of psychics, near-death experiencers, seers, shamans, and religious sources from across the globe.

We also know that we are in a 3d dimensional VR world, but 4 and 5 dimensional worlds peopled by billions of intelligent souls also exist. It is likely we will transit to those environments when we leave this world.

Read www.near-death.com to learn about the accounts of near-death experiencers.

Does it not occur to you that those who experienced these things you are describing are operating under a different concept of time and space compared to what the five senses are used to. In a dream you can see your childhood, adulthood and old age in time equivalent to few earthly seconds and yet the same event will take 80 to 100 years. Viewed with the five senses, it takes 80 plus years but viewed in a dream state it takes few seconds. This is an indication of relativity of time and space rather than no time.

Great question.

Infinite consciousness does not NEED to experience a physical world. But it's just an offer on the table for any soul to take for the experience, or even for entertainment.


It is said that no soul is forced to incarnate as a human. It is entirely a decision of the soul to partake of the game. Many souls reside in Interdimensional bliss for infinity, with no intent of experiencing life as a human.

It is said that in the so-called 'spirit world' (our true home), souls who decide to play the game Human RealityXJ5, are regarded with something akin to awe. Earth life is seen as particularly brutal by spirits, a sort of Boot Camp for souls, for which only the bravest of souls dare to experience.

But when souls return from an earth life, they do not have a feeling of having spent say ''70 years'', as humans.

The human experience appears to them to have taken place in no time at all, perhaps a couple of minutes in our 'time'.


I recommend you read Journey of Souls by Michael Newton, a hypnotic regressionist who has had his clients relate their pre-birth lives as souls under deep hypnosis.

Ok. It is not a need but an offer on the table. Why the offer in the first place? If it is for experience, why does infinite consciouness want to experience? If it is for entertainment, then this infinite consiouness is so bored in its eternity and infinity. But more seriously, what is this infinite consciouness gaining from experiencing as a murderer, peadophile and similar things? Does it not appear absurd that infinite counsciouness decide to experience as a murderer and then murders other humans who according to you are also infinite counsciouness in reality. I am aware of hypnotic age regression and going into it will derail the thread. So I will leave it for now. Best wishes.

I absolutely concur with this. I would go further to state that the 'physical reality' which we download from the 'Central Computer', is no different from a software program.

Thanks Rossike for your postulations. What is this central computer and who made the computer and the software program?

Some people are able to delete this program, or disable it temporarily - people such as seers, prophets, psychics, and herbalists, inserting a new software into their system, and consequently, decoding and interracting with reality in an altogether different fashion from the norm.

When seers or prophets experience dimentions or realities beyound the physical senses, is it that they have deleted or temporarily deleted physical faculties of perception as you seem to suggest or that they are using non-physical faculties of perception which have always been there but was not in use?

In this software program, which we may name HumanRealityXJ5, commands, functions and variables exist which produce the ILLUSION of Density, Time and Space.

In reality there's no past and future. Linear time is an illusion.

To describe physical realities as illusion when viewed with non physical senses is contradictory. You can only access the tangibility of physical things using physical organs of perception or instruments meant to improve on them. If you want to see an apple, then you use your eyes and if you want to see bacteria in the apple, then use your microscope. At the magnification at which you will see a bacteria, you will not be able to see an apple as apple at that maginification. Is it correct to say that an apple is an illusion just because you cannot see it as one with a microscope. It is the instrument or faculty of perception that determines what is seen and not the object that is viewed.

If in your view there is no past and future, then why should there be NOW for even NOW is a concept of "time"?

Outside the program, Everything occurs in the eternal NOW.

This is why the Bible says that for God, ''1000 years is like a day, and a day, like 1000 years.''

This is not the case with God alone, but with all who leave their physical bodies and return home. What we foolishly call ''death''.

Again, what is eternal NOW? "Time" requires a reference. What is your reference, physical, non-physical etc?

The key is knowing none of this is real.  We are Infinite Consciousness having a brief experience in an artificially  created 3D virtual reality program.

One more thing. In the afterlife, or spirit dimension, forms and shapes also exist, and are also Illusions.

Ultimate reality is consciousness in its purest form, symbolized by Thought.

Anything that can be seen is an Illusion!!

What is consciousness and what is infinite consciousness? Why does infinite consciousness need an experience of illusion as you claim that physical realities are illusion? What is the purpose of ultimate reality experiencing an illusion? Best wishes.

And with this you have just articulated my religious practice in a paragraph.  For me religion is not something separate from my everyday life.  I don't have a spiritual period and then a mundane period.  Every second of my life is my walk with God.  Or, to use alchemist jargon, the whole world is my laboratory. 

Every event and every problem is an opportunity to grow closer to God.  My failures as well as my successes.

Hi Pastor. Thanks again for your insightful post. I agree that their should be no separation between spirituality and our everday life. I choose to call it spirituality rather than religion. I also agree that every event, problem, disappointment or success is an opportunity to draw us closer to God. Indeed what is fundamental is an experience, not the form of the experience. The experience is neither success or failure, success or failure are just forms of the experience. Personally I would not use your sentence "Every second of my life is my walk with God". I will rather say that every second of my life is my experience of the will of God.

However what I find is that it is not necessarily a progressive process whereby the spiritual faculties just keeps getting stronger and stronger.  Rather, after a period of growing strong I might suddenly be faced with a crisis that seems to knock me back to square one.  I'll be unsure, and doubtful and everything will seem to go wrong.  All those vindicating coincidences and spontaneous events will seem to stop happening.  This has lead me to the conclusion that it is not a linear growth but rather a cyclical one.  There will be times of heightened spirituality and times of more carnality.

My view is that defining spiritual development as linear or cyclical may belittle the reality of the experience, It is a very important part of spiritual development that things  go wrong and disappontment and doubts arise. They are reminders that spiritual development does not belong to the past or the future but is NOW. A bird in flight even when it has reached great hight must continue to flap its wings to fly higher or even to maintain the hight that it has reached. If the bird folds its wing, then it will start to decend and will finally crash. In some cases  spiritual guidance also place some experiences on our path to teach us   some spiritual lessons. Often these experiences appear to be problems or disappontment or failure. It is also important to realise that spiritual experiences is not like a car ignition system where if you have the key, you can turn on or turn off the car as it pleases you. A human being having a spiritul experience can be compared to a piano. A piano will produce tones or sounds when it is played upon by the pianist. Sometimes the pianist may be very active and the piano  will be bubbling with melodies and at other times the piano is quiet because the pianist is not playing for whatever reason. Ofcourse this is a crude analogy but hopefully it will explain periods of apparent spiritual "quietness". Another possibility is that our weakness has always been there but was masked by hightened spiritual connection just like the fear of a dentist may suppress a toothache. Once the the connection is temporarly closed, then our weaknesses rear its ugly head. As always stay blessed.

Hi Pastor. Thanks for your insightful post. Just some brief comment.

However where there seems to be a difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that you seem to mean that there is a divine calling only for  a few select people.  I, on the other hand, say that absolutely every being and everything has an appropriation.  It amounts to self knowledge, know thyself, and have faith in yourself.

Maybe their is actually no difference in what we are saying if we strip away the shell and look at the seed. I already said in my penultimate post that the first duty of every human being is to find his calling, that already presopposes that there is a purpose or calling for each human being. The opportunity to accept this purpose is available to all human beings but only those who accept Gods purpose in their lives and fufill it can  be said to have "appropriated" it while others have "misappropriated" it even though this grace was equally available to them.

My view is that self knowlege is a first step. The ultimate step is divine guidance and faith in God.

All this is easier said than done.  Let us not underestimate the power of Fear.  I don't want to seem as if I am presuming myself to be more spiritually advanced than others and I am freed from my fears.  That would not be true.  That Fear is a fundamental part of the human psyche for very good reasons. 

Fear has it's basis in Ignorance.  Our knowledge is not complete, but we only see a part of our circumstance.  Being limited to a narrow perspective we cannot help but make faulty judgements.  These faulty judgements are reinforced by all the people in our environment that are just as ignorant as ourselves.

I agree that we should not underestimate the power of Fear. But those who really want to be children of God must conquer fear. We have no choice as their are no middle ground. But what is even more importanct is that the grace of God will always help all those that seek him to overcome fear or any other weakness. My view is that the grace of God is always available for any person, all that one need to do is to open ones spirit. Again it is not easy and yet easy. If one tries to be righteous, he or she will fail or end up been self righteous. The right righteousness comes from a man who opens his spirit to the power of God. The power of God that he has opened himself to will purify his soul. As paradoxical as it may sound, the way to open oneself to the power of God is not to try to open oneself, this will probably be meaninless to most people but hopefully it will convey meaning to some. One way of putting the concept closer to people is to say that if you think too much, you really think nothing but if you do not think at all, then you are doing the most insightful  thinking.

Imagine a man whose spirit informs him not to invest his money on the financial markets.  Let's say this is about 4 or 5 years ago.  Meanwhile all his friends have invested their money and are making humungous  profits.  In fact they start laughing at him, deriding him and calling him names.  'dullard', 'slow-coach'  'mugun'.  Even when he goes to bed at night, his wife pulls away from him and he can see what she's thinking.  She can't believe that it is the dumbest man in the whole town that she had to go and pick for a husband.  This is not just a short episode.  It persists, for one year . . . for 2 years . . . for 3 years (everybody is going on fantastic holidays and buying mansions) . . . 4 years . . . .

All the while his spirit is telling him to just keep his money in the small business concern that he has on the street corner.  Imagine the state of this man's mind.  Would you blame him if he caved in and threw his money into the financial markets too?  His status in town is at stake, even his marriage is at stake here.  Besides what if the spirit is wrong?  What if he is just deluded with all this spiritual stuff?  The evidence of his senses are telling him that he is missing out on the opportunities of his life.  Is he a fool to put Faith in the Spirit? 

Of course the evidences of his senses cannot see the looming market crash, it's perspective is too limited.  In fact he is ignorant of the greater part of the forces that shape and inform his life and circumstances.  Yet can you blame him for panicking.

I would not like to use the word blame but if he seeks my advice, I will tell him not to panick or fear but have faith in his spiritual guidance. Life should not be a spectator sport but every thing should be experential whether it brings us "fortune" or "misfortune". Now whether or not he percives the guidance he recieved rightly or wrongly is not much fundamental. What is fundamental is that his perception of the guidance recieved is honest. If the perception is wrong, he will experience it and mature spiritually. If it is also right he will experience it too and mature spiritually. Again this is a paradox but my sensing is that you understand what I mean. No child walks without falling but if a child experiences each fall and not observe each fall, then shortly he will learn how to walk without falling. This earthly analogy also applies to how the spirit percives Gods guidance, with each experienced so called failure and successs, the spirit faculties burst asunder the lenses through which it percieves and will one day directly percive the guidance without lenses. In this scenario the spirit is a knowing spirit and can experience the guidance from God with mathematical exactitude. It takes time to reach this point but  a humble and unassuming heart will surely do. As always stay blessed.

I think that africans will criticize their countries of origin whether they are in the comfort of their homes in the diaspora or carrying concrete blocks in the hot sun of said country of origin.  That is just what we do.  I do not think that this is a bad thing if the criticism is constructive which bring us to what I want to discuss by starting this thread

Hi Pastor. I am not against constructive criticism. My point is that the best way to criticize is for one who has found loopholes in different facets of life in Africa to work towards pluging the loopholes by himself. Constructive criticism that is not backed by actions aimed at addressing the problems identified only makes one an arm chair critique. If such a one is called by God and not imagine himself to be called by God, then the blessed one will have at his disposal spiritual as well as earthly help that will some day lead to the realization of his noble goals. The most important question for any individual is to  pray to God to show him his calling, then the strength and power to fulfill his call. If God did not call  you to be a political leader, you can win an election and achieve nothing for your people. If God did not call you as a doctor, you can be certified as a doctor but your record of healing your patients of their ailments will at best be average. If God did not call one as a teacher, he can not nurture young minds to the path of creative knowledge even when such a one has the best teaching qualification. If God did not call you as a Pastor, you may have the largest congregation and yet your sermons will not bring one soul to God, etc. And then one is called as a Pastor and he wants to be a political leader, he will achieve nothing for his is not following his calling.

I personally believe that a fundamental aspect of spiritual development is coming to the realization of an appropriation in one's life.  Life is given a direction, or an orientation.  There are many forces in this world that blocks us from a) being aware of this appropriation and b) following it after we become aware of it. It is these forces that have borne down on Africa over the past centuries and brought about the spiritual wasteland that we are witnessing.

I agree with you but I use the word calling instead of "appropriation", a word you are very fond of. A called one is in the world but not of the world, that is, he or she lives and moves about like any other person but draws his guidance and power from God. A major obstacle to realizing what is ones calling is fear, fear of being different, fear of being lonely because most people are of the world and cannot understand one who is not of this world, fear of being ostracized by your community, church or friends, fear of losing your earthly comfort, fear of losing your job or reputation and most importantly fear of listening to your conscience. And for one who has already released what his calling is but unable to follow it, it is also fear. But in addition to fear lies a major snare and that snare is called vanity. What I am saying is that no obstacle can prevent us from recognising Gods will in our lifes and following it except ourselfs. It is for this reason that I didnot mention the usual externals like corruption, bad leadership, etc.

I understand M_nwankwo's point that spiritual development is relevant only to individuals and not to vast communities, and I agree.  However in some instances a spiritually rich person may have considerable influence in the country in which he lives and in other instances a spiritually rich person may have no influence amongst his people.  In fact it is obvious to me that the achievements often enjoyed by the many of a nation are actually the product of a few individuals that have made their mark on that nation.  For example, not every English man is a Shakespeare or a Wordsworth.  Yet the contributions of these fellows to the english language is something that every english man can be proud of.  Often these few individuals make their contributions against the odds, sometimes while being oppressed by the same people that a few generations later will boast of what these individuals have achieved.

The major problem in my view is that those called by God have either not realised their calling or have failed to fufill their calling. Stay blessed.

Kay 17:
reincarnation is just wishful thinking. the earth population has to be constant for reincarnation to be possible. man would always want to live forever,thats where religion rears its ugly head but reality is we have one shot in life.

It is your opinion that reincarnation is wishful thinking and you are entitled to that opinion. I do not share your opinion as I firmly believe in reincarnation. The way that you expressed your opinion suggests that you are certain that it is wishful thinking. And when discussants are certain of their views, it will be pointless to debate the views expressed. Best wishes.

This thread is interesting but it seems their is a sweeping generalization by some discussants. First what is Africa? Does it refer to the inhabitants of the continent called Africa. If yes, how much of the history and most importantly pre-history of people inhabiting this continent that we know off. What about the spiritual evolution of inhabitants of the African continent? Are people living in the Africa spiritually homogenous or heterogenous? If we talk of spiritual bancruptcy, then we are talking of the poverty of the spirit, and if we are talking of the human spirit, then geographical separation, colour or race is meaninless in my view. A palm wine tapper in the heart of igboland today was an eminent astronomer/physist in Europe 200 years ago, was a member of Sahendrein 2000 years ago , and the soul history of the palm wine tapper can even be followed beyound 2000 years ago. Of course this will be meaniless to those who do not believe in reincarnation but for those who do or more importantly those who have personal experience of reincarnation, is it wise to judge this palm wine tapper based on a very small part of his earthly cycle as a present igbo man? I do not think so. The point I am trying to make is that one is bound to arrive at an incorrect observation if  a man, a nation or even a continent  is judged by looking at externals like geographical boundaries, race, religion or skin colour.

Even if we put aside the issue of reincarnation and base our observations only on people presently inhabiting the African continent. There is an igbo proverb that says " Every wall with a crack has lizards in it". The english translation is not quite good but hopefully readers will understand it. It means in this context that among all cultures, all peoples, all religions, etc, their are spiritually matured human beings as well as spiritually bankrupt human beings. Thus in Africa, you find spiritually bankrupt people as the OP suggests but you also find human beings that are highly spiritual. The same can be said of human beings inhabiting other continents.

My view is that africans in diaspora are fond of  critisizing their countries of origin from the comfort of their homes in Europe, America or Australia. But what is the purpose of throwing verbal grenades from across the atlantic? Why not go back to our country of origin and practice those noble values that we have acquired during our sojourn in Europe and America. I think that is the first step and those who have already done so know what a struggle the average African is going through. That he or she is still standing amist the struggle is more of a tastement to his or her spiritual maturity rather than spiritual bankruptcy.

The lecture by Dr Kraus seems interesting. But the objectivity of his assertions are questionable since he is using his scientific discipline of Theoritical Physics, Astronomy and Cosmology to support his atheistic views. Some theists also do the same thing. Great harm is done to science and "truth" when scientists interpret their data to suit their preconcieved theistic or atheistic beliefs.

In my view, there is nothing in that lecture that says that the universe came from nothing and that should easily be apparent to most people. When you remove all the sensationalism, the lecture is simply saying that what is[b] called nothing is actually not nothing[/b]. It is indeed paradoxical to infer that quatum fluctuations, virtual particles,dark energy as well as dark matter are nothing. Maybe Dr. Kraus should define what he meant by nothing. In addition, it is again intriguing how he thinks that a universe of zero energy is an evidence that the universe came from nothing. What appears to be a flaw in his presentation is that he did not define or describe what he meant by nothing. Is the absence of elementary particles nothing? I do not think so. Is the absence of virtual particles as well as dark energy nothing? I do not think so. As long as man keeps developing and refining his instruments, he will see things even beyound dark energy and virtual particles, there is no end to development and discoveries. This suggests that geting to nothing is unattainable. But is nothing an illusion? I do not think so.

These wiki articles are  simplified versions of how scientists determine the appproximate age of the the universe as well as the earth. The information may be helpful to discussants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe

Krayola:
Thank you so much. I have some more questions but I will wait till another time. I know u have other things to worry about/do and you have been a great sport already.

Thanks for your consideration. Always feel free to ask your questions. Best wishes.

Hi Krayola. These are my views to the questions you raised.

Outside of belief, what do u think the relationship between spiritual development and practice (how one lives one's life) is?

Spiritual development is not some abstract term. The activities of any human being (irrespective of what he believes) is a reflection of his level of spiritual development. Activities of man include his actions, words, thoughts, motives and his intuitions. The activities of one who is spiritually developed is penetrated by selfless love of God, his fellow men and indeed all creatures. Unfortunately, the average person cannot see thoughts, motives, and intuition and bases his or her judjement only on physically visible actions and words, and often makes the wrong judgement with attendant disapointment and misery. Most people can outwardly appear good but are evil if you can gain access to their thoughts, motives and intution. A spiritually developed person is both inwardly and outwardly good and will not consciously bring harm to another human being. Such a one only wishes the best for his fellow human being, rejoices in their success and shares in their failures or misery. Just like you can easily deduce the nature of a seed by the fruits it bears so it is that one can deduce the maturity of himself as well as his fellow men by looking at their activities. Our activities mark us for what we are irrespective of what we say that we are or believe that we are.

When u talk of spiritual maturity, is there a relationship between that and intellect, culture, exposure, or can one mature spiritually without exposure to any of the "prophets" and their teaching? What about someone with no religious background whatsoever?

Spiritual maturity has no relationship to the intellect, culture, exposure or religion. Spiritual maturity refers to the maturity of the spirit and this maturity is measured on how ones activity is in sync with the will of God.The spirit of man has the faculties that will enable it to recognise the will of God. These faculties are gifts which God bestowed on every spirit so that it cannot go astray on its journey through different planes of creation.The faculties will lead the spirit to all the necessary schooling it needs for its development, these same spiritual faculties ensures that all human beings have atleast on one occasion listened directly from a prophet of God and in some cases from the son of God himself. The knowlege of such experiences is buried in the spirit and the channels for it to be transmitted to the earthly brain is damaged, thus people are not conscous of such experiences. Thus even present day atheists have on one or several occasions listened directly form a prophet of God or even Jesus, the son of God.

Can a child born and abandoned and raised by wolves mature spiritually? how ?

Yes. There are physically invincible servants of God that will guide the child leading it to recognitions that it needs even in the mist of wolves. There are also other servants of God that will teach the wolves what to do until the child is old enough to fend for himself. It will divert from your questions if I go into details here. Suffice it to say that God never leave us without help no matter the circumstance, our problem is that we have stubbornly closed the channels that will lead us to those servants of God, hence our misery and misfortune.

When u say "Kingdom of God" what exactly do u mean? a place, a state of being, state of mind?

The kingdom of God is a place. It is found in the spiritual creation. The spirit which we are came from the kingdom of God and if it develops according to the will of God will return to the kingdom of God.

Is spiritual maturity a criterion for access to the "Kingdom of God"?

Absolutely,no immature or impure spirit will enter the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is the abode of matured and pure spirits. Maybe some day, I may elaborate on this. Best wishes.

Hi Krayola. I will give my view on your questions later today. One of my students is having a problem with his experiments, I have to go and see if I can find a solution to the problem. Talk to you later.

Krayola:
Thanks for your response.

Picture someone living in, say, 13th century China, and another in 21st Century New york city. They both have different world-views, and different conceptions of the divine, and understand certain symbols differently. If God were to reveal something to them. . .would it be in language or imagery familiar to each of them, or would they see and understand the same stuff in the same way?

Or, if the book of revelation were written today, would there be horses and swords, or jets and missiles?

Hi Krayola. Thank you too. What God reveals to the 13th Century Chinese and the 21st New Yorker will be independent and outside the language and imagery familiar to both of them. And if both are at a similar level of spiritual maturity, they will articulate this revelation in such a way that the 13th century Chinese will recognise the description of the 21st Newyoker as the same revealation that he also recieved. If however both are on different level of spiritual development, then the articulation will be different and perharps will reflect their own culture and enviroment. Thus the revelation is completely indpendent of the articulation. The more matured a human being is spiritually, the more is his articulation of the revelation of God closer to the revealtion, and when a human being has achieved the required maturity necessary to enter the kingdom of God, then there is no articulation but only the revelation. Thus such a one can see through the various articulations and still find the revelation of God. Simply a human spirit who has attained the required maturity of the spirit will see the same revelations of God in the teachings of Buddha, Mohammed, Laotze, Zoroaster, Moses, Krishna etc and is capable of separating the revelations of God from articulation of these revelations by the followers of these prophets of God. It is the articulation of these revelations or truths given to mankind by God that is the source of the confusion, not the truth or revelations themselves. In addition if both the chinese and the Newyorker are spiritually matured, then they will see in spirit the same revelation without any articulation or description.

If the book of revelation is written today, it will be exactly the same as we have it for revelation is a a spirtually transmitted writing, that means that the blessed "author" of the book of revelation simply pens down what was shown to him spiritually without any articulation by the brain. Thus the horses, swords, etc are spiritual realities which makes no sense to the man who cannot use his spirit, it is one reason why the book of revelation is an enigma both to believers and scholars. Best wishes.

JeSoul:
Goodness gracious Nwankwo, is there any observable limit to your wisdom?  The above is just beautiful to read.

Hi JeSoul. Thanks for your kind words. Honestly I do not consider myself as a wise man. I see myself as one who is ignorant but have absolute trust in God. Stay blessed.

Krayola:
Do you think that any 2, or more, people can have the same exact understand of God. Either with their brain or "spirit" or whateva. Is God experienced or understood in a uniform way by those who sincerely seek him, as u say, or are they all, ultimately, subjective conceptions.

Hi Krayola. Yes I think that two or more people can have similar understanding of God. I used similar as it captures the picture better than using identical understanding. Differences arise not because the will of God changes but the spiritual maturity of the seekers are different. Individuals on the same level spirtually will percieve the will of God in a very similar way. Thus for example if 10 people are at  a similar level of spiritual maturity and each is independently shown  a vision of heaven. Then, when anyone of them describes what was shown to him, the nine others will recognise it as what was also shown to them too. Thus, differences are simply a reflection of the varied maturity of men. When people change inwardly, their perception also changes. Just like on earth, if 10 people have heard and recognised the track "Thriller" by MJ and then Thriller is played independently for each of them, each will again recognise it as Thriller by MJ although the effect on them may vary. It may make some to remember with nolstagia their teenage years, others it will envoke different emotions but whatever the emotion, they know it is Thriller by MJ. If however 10 people claim to recognise Thriller by MJ and yet 9 out of the 10 say that it is pokker face by Lady Gaga, Umbrella by Rhina or even symphony no 9 by Bethoven, then it is clear that the nine have not recognised Thriller by MJ. Best wishes.

My view is that many simple minded people have a correct perception of God even though they cannot define it or describe it in a way that seems reasonable to others with sophisticated intellect. It is the man with a sophisticated intellect that has problems with understanding the ways of God or even believing in God. When people think too much as scholars do, they create a maze of thoughts that are so loud that they suffocate the calm quiet voice of the spirit.  The spirit alone has the ability to understand the will of God. When this voice of the spirit is unrecognised due to the noise generated by intellectual pondering, then the path to percieving God or and his will is blocked.

To describe God in a way that seems closer to the perception of the human brain is really difficult. Inspite of this limitation, one can say that God is  Eternity to which everything is absolutely dependent on but God is absolutely independent of everything else, thus existence no matter in what form or formlessness is simply a manifestation of God or more correctly a manifestation of the power of God. Thus there is no existence without God but their is God without existence. In otherwords, existence was created by the power of God and is absolutely dependent on the power of God but God is eternal and absolutely independent of anything else. Thus only God is Life, everthing else directly or indirectly derive its existence from LIFE that is God.

Deep Sight:
I think the important point to distill is the fact that people with such near-death experiences with a flat EEG have reported stories such as may be akin to dreams in which they have seen x or y (whatever they report).

Asde from this, such people have been known to report goings-on around them accurately during the period of the flat EEG.

While we can accept that a flat EEG does not equate total cessation of all activity, we must really ask ourselves how likely it is that a person with such miniscule brain activity such as cannot be detected AT ALL be the most modern instruments, would be able, in that state, to have imaginations or hallucinations in full story-forms akin to dreams as well as perceive and record and relate activity going on around him/ her.

It is abundantly unlikely. Even in normal dream states, technology can detect the active areas of the brain which are involved in the production of the dream, its imagery, and activity. I cannot accept the proposition that people could formulate advanced stories and report occurences around them accurately when there is no detectable brain activity! It's most unlikely.

I think we should, to be open minded, accept the possibility that there could be other non-tangible faculties at work within the human being.

Hi Deepsight. My earlier post which you quoted implied what you are saying. But to put it as clearly as you put it is correct and corresponds to the truth but to put it that way as a scientific fact will have serious problems. I am a scientist and when speaking to people who only believe science, one has to learn to speak to them in their language and providing the necessary caveat. In this way some may consider what you are saying and may finally come to the Truth. But if you put it as plainly as you do to people with scientific background, that may be a turn off. Thus the inclination or background of the questioner determines ones approach. Stay blessed.

@AlaniTiaogo

Thanks for your reasoned response. I reply as follows:

@M_Nwankwo. Intriguing exegesis you have there. And I find your definition of formlessness in spiritual realms as only a limitation of the percipient from a lower realm unique. Or is there any system of religious or philosophical thought expousing this? Will like to know more, intellectually.

I draw from the work "In The Light of Truth-The Grail Message". I also have personal experiences of worlds that are not visible to the physical organs of perception.

Don’t see the connection of this to perfection. Even the ability to transform yam to stone isn’t necessarily the assurance of perfection or omnipotence. Think about it: omnipotence means infinitely and eternally potent. Not sure if one’s level of maturity, either as man or even as a higher form of existence, would guarantee a stage when ‘laws’ can be teased out of the concept of God.

The connection to perfection is the immutability or unchangebility of the will of God or to be more specific acts of the will of God. I clearly made a distinction between God and acts of the will of God. Just a crude analogy, a gifted author has the ability to produce works of literature. The ability is limitless but once he or she pens a novel titled Bleep, the novel Bleep is not liimitless. Those who want to study the unexpressed abilty of the author are wasting their time for we can only read his or her works, not the ability which expresses itself in his or her books. If the authors ability has the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence, then all her books irrespective of the title or the Message it potrays will carry carry the same markers or reporter tags that this is the work of this author. Thus a reader who have read his various books can just open the first page of his or her newbook and accurately predicts that this is the work of author xxxx even when the athors name is removed in the new book. The point is that if God made yam to produce yam, then that springs from all wisdom (omniscience) and thus can not be changed or improved upon. Although the yam example is an indication of what is meant by the perfection of the will of God on earth,it still does not paint a picture that is closer to reality with respect to God. Perharps the closest description is to say that God is Perfection and Perfection is Eternal-Unchangeable. God is perfection conveys a different and more complete picture than to say that God is perfect. I hope that discussants will see the the point.

Whatever gets trapped can only be principles- divine principles; trapped only by man at his level of understanding, however low. These principles may be incomplete, a mere glimpse of the numinous, but it must not be insincere. The individual gains a better understanding, the society, perhaps a richer humanity…but it will always be limited. No need to be squeamish about this. We are not God

My view is that acts of will of God in themselves are limitlesss but a limitless act of Gods will resides only in God. If these acts of his will or his divine attributes have to manifest, then they are limited by the particular region, world or plane of manifestation. My view is that what ever radiates out of God encapsulates itself with substances from worlds of its intended manifestation. The encaspsulation of these emanations from God limits the emanation or to put it more specifically adapts the emanation to the prevailing conditions and laws manifesting in the worlds of intended manifestation. Thus for instance one cannot fly in the air with ones physical body and even with rockets and space ships ones speed is conditioned by the speed of light, and yet in a soul body one can travel faster than the speed of light for the body of the soul has a far higher speed than that of the light and is not subject to the earthly law of gravity but to a law of gravity that is prevalaent in the worlds or planes in which souls inhabit.   Sure we are not God, but God can also bring revelations of his will to his creatures.

I say this entirely within my limits as a subject, a person, a singular being, who seeks and finds, who thinks and grasps within my personal universe

I admire you humility and keep it up. Stay blessed.

Brilliant! I accept. Makes perfect sense. Nonetheless i suspect there is a bit of hair-splitting involved in that. Because we can only work with words, however limited such words may be. If we screen out the word "perfect" we can also screen out all other words which may be used to define attributes of God -  on the same grounds that he is absolutely ineffable, and any human words must perforce limit him. If we carry on with that, we will even screen out the word "God" and adopt the old Jewish tradition of never mentioning his name at all, as a sign of its very holiness and ineffability. I hope you thus appreciate the fact that we must use some words, no matter how limiting they may be, and the word "perfect" is not a bad start. . .

Perfection in the sense in which deepsight used it cannot be separated from omnipotence, omnipresense and omniscience. My sensing is that deepsight is not using perfection as a description of a function or functions, rather as a living attribute which resides only in the creator and thus unattainable by creatures of the creator. It is true that the essense of God cannot be understood by creatures of God but creatures can understand the will of God. This is because the will of God is embodied in the activities of God. The entire creation is an act of will of God. That act of will of God can be understood by all creatures who wish to do so, atleast as much as the are capable of absorbing. For God, everything else is within space and time including his divine kingdom as well as his spiritual kingdom. However for creatures, an experience of time and space is relative and dependent on the origin of such a creature as well as his spirtual maturity. Thus a spirit whose inner maturity coresponds to the material things will see the astral plane for instance as beyound time and space, and even formless. But if the same spirit attains a maturity that enables him to be above or atleast with the same vibrations of the astral plane, then the astral plane that was originally formless and beyound time and space is then within time and space and have very clear forms,  and so on. Thus a spirit in heaven of human spirits will see heaven of higher spirits as formless, and beyound space and time and yet beings higher than these high spirits will see their abode of these higher spirits as having form and can be reproduced in a picture. The summary is that everything else except God can be reproduced as a picture and thus within time and space. But this time and space, the form and the boundaries can only be seen by a creature at the same or above the oscillation of that particular time and space. Thus when people describe some experience as beyound time and space, that is only true with respect to their on inner maturity at that time, further inner maturity will convince them that what they originally taught to be beyound time, space is actually with time and space and has clearly define boundaries. Even the entire creation has very definit boundaries but one who found counsciousness within creation will never reach that boundary and thus will never see the form, the error may then enter in concept that creation is infinte or that creation and the creator are inseparable. And yet one who has no beiginning or end like Jesus, the son of God will clearly see that the entire creation is within space and time and have clear boundaries.

Now, one can say that while the essence of God cannot be understood and thus formless, acts of will of God have forms and these forms manifest depending on the "frequency" of the oscillation of the particular plane. Thus, strange as it may sound, an act of Gods will is only limitless if it resides in God but if it manifests outside of God, then these acts of will are bound or limited by the space and time to which such manifestation takes place. Thus if God decides to enter creation to bring Truth to human beings, it has to be via incarnation in which God has to envelope himself in various cloaks vibrating under different space and time until it takes the physical cloak which has the lowest vibration. That happened 2000 years ago in Jesus of Nazareth. If God want to harvest yam, then God has to sow yam because God originally made yam to give yam. It is imposssible even for God to turn yam into plantain or a stone into a fish. Thus to expect God to change the intrinsic qualities of yam reproduction so that it becomes tomatoes is wishful thinking and clearly demonstrates that such a one seem not to understand what perfection, omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence simply means. It is also the same reason why people expect miracles that are simply an impossibility and end up been disappointed. It is also the same reason why people also think that certain things are impossible and yet those things are possible. A man who intutively studies the various acts of will of God will come to an understanding of the language of God. That Language is clearly written in the entire creation as well as in every species whether living or "non living". All revelations,  prophecies or fresh acts of Gods will simply follow the same road that previous acts of Gods will have followed, therein lies the perfection which deepsight is trying to put across. Maybe some day an opportunity will present itself where we discuss what is meant by the laws of God. Stay blessed.

Hi again Winiret

Find below a brief response to your post:

I could not find reference 64 in the Wiki article you provided, the references stopped at number 24.

I am suprised that you could not find reference 64. The wiki article has 74 references. In any case the reference 64 is shown below:

"Sabom, Michael. Light & Death: One Doctor's Fascinating Account of Near-Death Experiences. 1998. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House"

You can order the book from the publishers.

About near death experiences, as i had already said, near death experience is not the same as total death experience. So for the fact that the person was able to come back to life, it means that during the near death experience, the brain was not dead, because it is a medical fact that dead brain cells can never be revived. The fact that EEG cannot detect brain activity does not mean that there is no brain activity.

Have you ever heard of the brain's electrical microcircuits? These microcircuits are capable of much wider responses than the simple Yes/no of a digital computer, they are extremely small in size (about 1/10,000 of a centimeter)  and responds to voltages 1/100th times smaller than normal neurons.  The microcircuits are capable of finer and subtler responses than ordinary neurons and they are not detected by EEG.
mazaje  had responded very well to causes of near death experiences, i will also add another reason for near death experiences.

Yes I am aware of the brains microcircuit but I also know that their is no scientific evidence to show that the brains microcircuits are responsiple for near death experience during flat EEG. If you are aware of such evidence, kindly cite it and I will look at the scientific evidence presented. Sure the brain cells are not dead but have no recordable activity that can be measured during coma or medically induced coma. The brain cells can be said to be in suspended animation and to argue that cells in such undetectable level of activity are capable of producing out of body experience and accurately report such experience when the patient regains counsciousness is scientifically strange. It is akin to state that human cell lines frozen in liquid nitrogen in my laboratory is capable of cell division, cell growth etc at -196 celcius just because when I thaw them and put it in an incubator at 37 degree celcius, they regain cell division and growth.

I could also explain the experiences of post near death experiences by the bodies natural response to a potential painful inevitable death. I had done a lot of research into the dying process back then, but i was surprised Google did not have much on scientific research of the dying process. Maybe people are not comfortable with the study of death. So i am very sorry you might not be able to collaborate my Dying process theory from the internet.

Death usually results from shut down of the brain, as a consequence of shortage of fuel from the blood (glucose or oxygen), which is the control center of the body.  It can also be caused by the breakdown of an organ vital to the smooth functioning of the body. The Body tries to protect the whole body as best as it can. If an organ is troubled and not functioning properly, the body uses pain to warn the person or animal. But the person suffers a major trauma, like a heart attack or a fatal accident, then the pain becomes unbearable and even becomes a danger to the individual. So the body is said to counter this pain by releasing very powerful anesthetics  into the brain to counter the pain. It is similar to the body releasing powerful chemicals into the brain to counter pain during life threatening situation like war, whereby a person hit with a bullet or spear is not aware of the pain until the dangerous situation has subsided.   These powerful anesthetics  possesses similar properties to powerful natural anesthetics like cocaine. So i feel a lot of near death experiences are hallucination caused by these chemicals, just like someone on cocaine (for medical purposes) would have the same hallucinations.
It said that a similar process occurs when a predator kills a prey in the wild. After a lion had caught and wounded an antelope, it is reported that the antelope becomes immobile and so dies a painless death.

Some people including scientist have suggested as you stated above but so far they have no evidence to back it up. Infact the Lancet paper seriously questions such postulations as reasons for near death experience. If there is an out of body experience and an accurate recall of such experience during a flat EEG, it suggests that counsciousness is not tied to the brain but external to it. But it is important to state that such incidence is only a suggestion of consciousness being external to the brain but not a proof of it.To prove that counsciousness is independent of the brain requires more than the discipline of thanatology can offer.

The Lancet website requires some sort of registration, so please post the said article or tell me how to access the site, i would love to read the article.

Finally, i must concede that i do not have explanations for all and every out of body experiences, but placing consciousness outside living things physical existence would  make the universe meaningless. (At least to me)

I am sorry that you could not access the lancet paper. Drop your email and I will send it to you. Best wishes.

@m_nwankwo Thanks so much for your reply, Very very interesting I must say. . . .

I will just point to some parts of your post where there seems to be some disagreements amongst scientist with regards to your postulations because I personally do not agree with them too(I might be wrong though). . .

Thanks for your reasoned response.

This wikipedia article on Brain Death has some quite telling phrases.

"Note that brain electrical activity can stop completely, or drop to such a low level as to be undetectable with most equipment. This includes a flat EEG during deep anaesthesia or cardiac arrest. To preclude these states being defined as brain death, the term refers only to the permanent cessation of electrical activity."

The articles suggests that there seems to be some brain activity even when there is a Flat EEG but the activity is too low and most equipment are unable to detect them because to my understanding a flat EEG does not mean that the brain cells are dead right? Cesation of brain activity is only death in so far as it is permanent. Just like cesation of heart beat is only death in so far as it is permanent to my understanding. . . . .

I have already acknowledged that possiblity because I defined flat EEG as no recordable brain activity. Thus it is possible that there might be undetectable electical impulses but if it is undetectable it is likely that the brain activity is infinitesimally low that it could not account for out of body experience during flat EEG. I am aware that there is no scientific consensus in this matter but  each person should examine all the evidence as objectively as possible and arrive at his own conclusion. Ofcourse I have my own personal convictions on the matter but since winiret and you seem to value scientific data, I refered to scientific data available so that scientifically minded individuals like winiret and you will consider the scientific evidence.

With regards to NDE here is an interesting read from this  website. . . .

"Near-death" experiences appear to result from a stressed brain--such as anoxia [Lack of oxygen--Ed.] in a cardia arrest. Clincally, the person fails rapidly and during probably the recovery, the stressed brain essentially makes things up. It cannot process stimuli properly.

How do we know this? We can recreate the conditions. The brain will make up things to fill gaps--confabulate in a sense. A person coming out of a stress will confabulate--and the events seem very real. "But wait, the guy said he was floating above the stretcher and heard exactly what the doctors, nurses, priests, and undertakers were saying!" Well, have you ever had a third person dream? You watch yourself? The brain can do that. Also, as you "come to" you process information not at all well. You can remember some parts, not others, and, frankly, make up details. The popular stories of "near death"--like "alien abductions"--provide you a frame work on which to attach events to create the story. Finally, just as a dream can distort the period of time you think has passed, the same can occur in the "near death" experience.

In my view, this explanation is quite simplistic and flawed. It does not take into account an accurate recall of events that happened during the period of flat EEG. Even in sleep or dream state the brain is active and EEG is not flat. The core question is how can a brain with no recordable activity make up stories? Making up of stories requires detectable brain activity. I hope you can see the flaw in their proposition. The authors of the article you sited are just speculating. Best wishes.