₦airaland Forum

The second part is shown below:


Karmic reactions take into consideration the entire spiritual history and evolution of man, not just his present earth life. My belief is that all human beings have been on earth at least 7-10 times in different guise, sex, nationality and even religion. Thus even a new born child is an old soul in a young body and atimes comes into this present life with heavy karmic entaglements that will significantly affect the lives of the parents, siblings and the larger society. What happens to each person in this present earthlife is a small snapshot of his entire existence. Only when ones spiritual eyes are opened and he or she can survey the entire existence, right from the point God created him or her to present life will such a one realise that what has happened, is happening or will happen to us is in one way or the other came from us. It is either that we sowed the seeds, or we requested for the seeds to be sowed on our behalf or we asked to taste the fruit of a seed we did not sow so as to learn from it etc,

A knowlege of reincarnation will simply make us see things entirlely in a different light. Just imagine a christian who spends so much time and energy mocking islam and then the bandage that blocks the inner eyes of most people fell off from such a one and the christian then realises that he is mocking the same teaching he helped to set up as a prominent moslem several hundreds of years ago. Or imagine one praying to one saint or the other to intercede for him only to realise that 2000 years ago, he or she is the saint that he is praying to. It has some drama when such a one realises that he has been praying to himself.

Thus even if on earth, injustice appear to take the upper hand, one should not worry for the justice of God will return to each one the fruits of his sowing without exception. The harvest is however not determined by our human wishes and expectations but by the laws of God.  The beginning and the end is always as God wills it but the "space" or "time" between the beginning and the end can have detours and byepaths that does not lead to the will of God. These detours and evil voiltions/paths were introduced by creatures that have free will. Cheers.

Hi Ako. I complained that my post on this subject was deleted and I requested that you restore the post. It seems that you have not taken any action in that connection. Thus I will split that post into two in the hope that it will not be deleted. The first path is shown below:

Karma is a manifestation of the justice and love of God. In simple terms, it means that what each person, creature or even a particle sends out into seen and unseen universe comes back to the originator. In travelling through the visible and invisible worlds, the vibrations sent out amalgamate with similar vibration or energy  and thus comes back to the originator with much more strength and power than he, she or it originally sent out. Thus you sow a grain of corn and you reap not just a grain but cubs of corn containing hundreds of grain. What happens with a grain physically also happen with our thoughts, words, actions and even our intutions and motives. If what we originally sent out sprung from pure motives, then they return what people regard as blessings and if they are impure, then, they return to us what often is regarded as problems, evil and similar things. Karmic reaction is however not a straight line because their are billions and trillions of vibrations that form the tapetry of ones fate and each of these vibrations have a say in what will manifest at a particular point in time. Indeed, every single second, new vibrations are added and these new vibrations can be so strong that it literally changes ones fate. Thus, one can change his karma by applying his God given free will in another direction. To love genuinely and purely can easily break bad karmic entaglements such that what would have cut off a persons head may end up removing his cap or even bringing him a good fortune. Spritual guides can easily percieve what lies in our karmic fate and through admonition to our spirits (often not counscious to many), they bring us to circumstances and events that help us to reap the fruits of our good seeds or prevent us from circumstances or events that will harm us. Because most of us  are not aware of this guidance from above, we call it providence or grace because we did not see a cause or reason for what good fortune that effortlessly dropped into our lap or the reason why we were mysteriously saved from a terrible fate. The reality though is that we were led to circumstances, processes or events albeit unconscious to our brain where the fruits of our sowing have ripened. Thus their is no process or event without a cause but most often the cause does not lie in the physically observable universe. Thus the cause comes from a source that lies beyound what our physical senses and instrumentations that aid them can see.

Hi Mr Moderator. I made a contribution on this topic and it was deleted. Please, kindly post my contribution. I guess your spam filter deletes long posts. Cheers

Karma is a manifestation of the justice and love of God. In simple terms, it means that what each person, creature or even a particle sends out into seen and unseen universe comes back to the originator. In travelling through the visible and invisible worlds, the vibrations sent out amalgamate with similar vibration or energy  and thus comes back to the originator with much more stength and power than he, she or it originally sent out. Thus you sow a grain of corn and you reap not just a grain but cubs of corn containing hundreds of grain. What happens with a grain physically also happen with our thoughts, words, actions and even our intutions and motives. If what we originally sent out sprung from pure motives, then they return what people regard as blessings and if they are impure, then they return to us what often is regarded as problems, evil and similar things. Karmic reaction is however not a straight line because their are billions and thrillions of vibrations that form the tapetry of ones fate and each of these vibrations have a say in what will manifest at a particular point in time. Indeed, every single second, new vibrations are added and these new vibrations can be so strong that it literally changes ones fate. Thus, one can change his karma by applying his God given free will in another direction. To love genuinely and purely can easily break bad karmic entaglements such that what would have cut off a persons head may end up removing his cap or even bringing him a good fortune. Spritual guides can easily percieve what lies in our karmic fate and through admonition to our spirits (often not counscious to many), they bring us to circumstances and events that help us to reap the fruits of our good seeds or prevent us from circumstances or events that will harm us. Because the average man is not aware of this guidance from above, he calls it providence or grace because he did not see a cause or reason for what good fortune that effortlessly dropped to his lap or the reason why he was mysteriously saved from a terrible fate. The reality though is that he was led to circumstances, processes or events albeit unconscious to our brain where the fruits of our sowing have ripened. Thus their is no process or event without a cause but most often the cause does not lie in the physically observable universe. Thus the cause comes from a source that lies beyound what our physical senses and instrumentations that aid them can see.

Karmic reactions take into consideration the entire spiritual history and evolution of man, not just his present earth life. My belief is that all human beings have been on earth atleast 7-10 times in different guise, sex, nationality and even religion. Thus even a new born child is an old soul in a young body and atimes comes into this present life with heavy karmic entaglements that will significantly affect the lives of the parents, siblings and the larger society. What happens to each person in this present earthlife is a small snapshot of his entire existence. Only when ones spiritual eyes are opened and he or she can survey the entire existence, right from the point God created him or her to present life will such a one realise that what has happened, is happening or will happen to us is in one way or the other came from us. It is either that we sowed the seeds, or we requested for the seeds to be sowed on our behalf or we asked to taste the fruit of a seed we did not sow so as to learn from it etc,

A knowlege of reincarnation will simply make us see things entirlely in a different light. Just imagine a christian who spends so much time and energy mocking islam and then the bandage that blocks the inner eyes of most people fell off from such a one and the christian then realises that his is mocking the same teaching he helped to set up as a prominent moslem several hundreds of years ago. Or imagine one praying to one saint or the other to intercede for him only to realise that 2000 years ago, he or she is the saint that he is praying to. It has some drama when such a one realises that he has been praying to himself. Ofcourse, it is understandable if many will laugh at this and dismiss it as figment of my imagination, yet some day even those individuals will experience the very thing I am saying. There own time will come.

Thus even if on earth, injustice appear to take the upper hand, one should not worry for the justice of God will return to each one the fruits of his sowing without exception. The harvest is however not determined by our human wishes and expectations but by the laws of God.  The beginning and the end is always as God wills it but the "space" or "time" between the beginning and the end can have detours and byepaths that does not lead to the will of God. These detours and evil voiltions/paths were introduced by creatures that have free will. Cheers.

Hi Deep Sight. Thanks for your comments. I am glad that you derived some spiritual benefit  from the Grail Message. I address the issues you raised as follows:

What is important is that one lives according to the laws of God. Whether or not one becomes a cross bearer  in the earthly sense is irrelevant. Spiritually, anyone who lives according o the laws of God is a crossbearer and such  a one bears the cross of Truth in his finer material bodies as well as on the spiritual body. Whether or not one physically wears this cross on earth is not important for spiritual development. Thus it is total obedience to the laws of God that makes one a cross bearer and not being a member of any movement, religion or sect. Thus there are many who wear the cross on earth but are not crossbearers and there are those who do not wear the cross on earth but are crossbearers. Thus just live your life in the sense of the Grail Message and you will here or hereafter have the personal experience that will confirm to you the identity of the author of the Grail Message.

You should never accept something which you have not personally recognised as Truth even if that thing is the Truth. Thus you should not accept the identity of the author of the Grail Message just because you read about it. Just live according to the Grail Message and a time will come when you will personally exprience who Abd-ru-Shin is. Many have read the Grail Message without knowing the identity of its author. Some recognize who he is even without physically reading the book. Some recognise it in the first page while others have to read and re-read the Grail Message for years before recognition dawns. Thus, each one draws from the Grail  Message as much as his spirit is capable of absorbing. Many who have read the Grail Message will go empty handed because they do not have the mobility of the Spirit required to experience higher recognitions. I knew who Abd-ru-Shin is even before I read the Grail Message and I hold to that conviction. It will be better for people to study the Grail Message and do not dissipate their energy trying to intellectually find out who Abd-ru-Shin is. Any person  who needs it  for his spiritual development will get it through experiencing it .


Yes people can make claims but their works  will show with clinical precision whether or not their claims are valid or not. Stay blessed.

Deep Sight:
@ just cool, m nwankwo;

I have read the message a number of times. I must say it is easily the clearest and most incisive work of spiritual truth in history.

I derived strong insights from it.

I was in fact going to become a cross bearer, but one thing has held me back: the authour's claim about his personal identity. You know what i'm talking about. I neednt state it here as it may confuse other seekers. Can you clarify why anybody should believe stupendous claims about personal identity? The jewish carpenter made some claims i fear are rather presumptuous. I was raptured with the grail message until i read near the end his claims about his personal identity.

The likes of guru maharaji and olumba olumba obu make outrageous claims about their personal identities. That never impresses me.

I think that the OP by Justcool is brilliant. However, I am convinced that logical or intellectual reasoning will not convince even one atheist to believe in God. Belief or rather an irrevocable conviction in God requires something which logic and reason cannot provide. It requires a conscious experience of the power of God. Until a person consciously encounters this power of God, he or she will remain an atheist, an agnostic or be a believer in several of the many conceptions of God that are prevalent in different world religions or movements. Personally, I do not see any problem with whatever view point an atheist holds so long as that is what he or she is convinced about. That is, as long as one is honest with his beliefs and do not perharps hold views that contradict his outward and inward experiences. Thus there is nothing wrong in my view in holding a belief or views that are in synch with your outward and inward experiences. My view is that the power of God is to be experienced. It is not reasoned or thought out. The path to recognising God lies in consciously experiencing the power of God and if need be, one can articulate this experience of Gods power into philosophical, logical or scientific platform. Blind faith in God may be acquired by philosophical, logical or scientific reasoning. Such a faith is blind in its fundamentalsim as well as unreliable when temptation knocks. It is actually better in my view to be an honest athesit than to have a blind faith in God. An irrevocable conviction in God comes from consciosusly experiencing the power of God. Such a genuine conviction brings love instead of hate, wisdom instead of ignorance, sympathetic understanding instead of fundamentalism, serenity instead of anger, truthfullness instead of falsehood, honesty instead of hypocrisy, peace instead of war, etc.

Moderator, please move this topic back to the religious section. Below is an old article published in 2000 but I guess it is a summary of scientific,  ethical, policy and moral implications of reproductive technologies as seen by the authors. I do not agree with some of the views expressed but the paper gives a comprehensive overview which may help readers and discussants on this forum. Find below the link to the paper. I hope every person can have access to it.

http://www.aaas.org/spp/sfrl/projects/germline/report.pdf

@Wirinet

Hi. Thanks for your response. I reply as follows:

Hello Mr m_nwankwo, i hope you do not mind me answering the above question, because i was there once, and still today after much searching, there are still many things i do not know.

It not unreasonable to also say that you do not know whether God exists or no,t because the actual definition of what a God is has not been adequately explained.

The point of my post to Tudor is to suggest to him that one may not say that God does not exist except one is knowlegeable about all possibilities in the universe. Thus he seems to accept that he does not know of all possiblities. Thus I think it is fair for him to say that he does not know whether or not God exist but unfair to say that God does not exist. Thus I was actually commending his accptance that he does not know. I only suggested that he should carry that notion of not knowing to his future investigations concerning God and the universe.

It not unreasonable to also say that you do not know whether God exists or no,t because the actual definition of what a God is has not been adequately explained. We hear all sorts of nebulous definition like God is a spirit, God is the creator of everything we do not understand, and so on. The description of a God by most cultures, especially ancient ones, is very  similar to a very powerful but egocentric and highly insecure warrior kind, who sits on an expensive throne, wearing expensive crown, in his court, and forces people to love, fear,revere, worship, and continuously sing praises to him. He then dishes out punishment/reward based on his mood or how happy is with his subjects. Examples that fits that description includes Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Sango, Odin, Thor, Jupiter, and lots of others. That image of a God does not fly with lots of people even they do not know the origin of the universe or existence, they are sure this "man" or king or spirit cannot be it.

Yes, different concepts of God are being peddled about and some are ridiculous that they do deserve disdain and ridicule. But the gaps in the concepts of God are not enough reason to declare that God does not exist. Concepts of God and God are not one and the same thing. I do not think that we have the capacity to conceptualize God. Any such attempt leads to idolatory and can not withstand robust logical as well as experiencial scrutiny. I also think that it is not helpful to ask others to define God because once they attempt that, the definitions will fall flat and provide ammunition for atheists to attack.  Concepts and cognition are the way the brain and mind is hardwiired and while concepts are useful in understanding what is perceptible to our physical senses and instruments that improve on them, they are useless in experiencing God and his power. But since the human brain and mind have eclipsed this awareness of God in us just like a mud covers a diamond, it has become very difficult and for most impossible to recognise God. That is the reason why people are asking for evidence even though the evidence is in and around them. I often believe that the search for God is personal and no one who seeks will go empty handed. Thus I encourage you not to give up on your quest but to continue until you find billions of evidence confirming the existence of God.

A lot of people derive their power (political) from being a member of the inner court or a representative of this God King.

Even today some people like Olumba Olumba claims to be God and creator of the universe, and try telling his believers he is not and just because someone does not understand the universe does not make it mandatory to believe olumba olumba created it.

Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence are revealed attributes of God. People can make claims and that is there choice. But if a person claims to be God, then such a one should provide evidence of omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience. For a start such a person should publish how he created the universe for scientists and others to examine. Stay blessed.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=307136.msg4334411#msg4334411 date=1250001863]Can't you read?
I said i don't know. I wasn't alive at the begining for petes sake!You say this with such certainty. . .how do you know the earth didn't just come into existence?


And oh, i'm not a scientist neither am i a fortune teller so i can't explain any mystery to you.[/quote]Hi Tudor. If you accept that you do not know as your above post seems to suggest. Is it not reasonable to also say that you do not know whether God exists or not? Best wishes.

@Davidylan

I am not making a contribution to the topic. Just to ask how your Ph.D work is proceeding. Hope you will round up very soon. Best wishes and Gods grace with your defence. Stay blessed.

Pastor AIO:
Thank you! I'm so glad to be back. Those nigerian egregores, or is it intuition forms, are really tearing the place apart. Only God can save that part of the world. I'm at my wits end with them.

Hi Pastor. It is really sad what is happening in our naija especially in the religious arena. Our people always have God in there libs but deep down them (even though they are not conscious of it), they do not believe in God or believe in man made intuitive forms. Any person who have experienced God even for a second cannot but love his neighbour. Such a one shows even greater love to his so called enemies. Here and there, their are few genuine human beings in our country and for the sake of this tiny few, I believe that the grace of God will incline to our people. But before then, a painful purification will precede the saving grace of God. Stay blessed.

Pastor AIO:
Well done o! I was in 9ja when M_nwankwo joined the thread and internet connection was slow so I didn't bother. I guess the matter is past now so I should leave it . . . . but just in case someone has more to say . . . .

Welcome back Pastor AIO!

Hi Tudor. Thanks for your well-reasoned response. Find below my views on your post.

Biological life,hmmmm. . . . . I would hold the view that the sperm and ovum have biological life in the first place, they perform the entire characteristics of living things as do other cells.
The union of the two cells forms the embryo. The genetic program for the development into a child as contained in the embryo comes from these two cells it doesn't just magically appear.
So again if i wanted to use your logic i'd hold that life starts from the formation of the sperm and ovum.

When I used the term biological life, I was not refering to characteristics of living cells or things. I was refering to the physical human body. My point is that the zygote or the fertilized egg is the first step or stage in the development of the physical human body. A sperm or an egg lacks the genetic program to develop into a human body. A fusion of the two gametes is a most. Thus, only when an egg is succesfully fertilized by a sperm does the development of a human body starts. Even in cloning, an ex-nucleated egg cell still requires a 2n-chromosome number to artificially trigger the process of embroyogenesis. It is impossible for a gamete or an n-chromosome number to undergo embryogenesis. See below a brief outline of embryogenesis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryogenesis

You do not believe in God and thus there is no point in bringing spiritual perspectives to the discussion. I keep to the scientific issues.

I will hold that understanding comes from experimentation and exploration.
How would you expect us to know of the nature of viruses if not from research conducted by experiments.
There was no scientific evidence either that vaccination would work. It took putting the hypothesis to work by experimentation and observation.

Quote

The human body, irrespective of its developmental stage should not be used as a guinea pig for experimentation. There are already anectodal evidence from folklores that a vaccine will work. I refer you to to read up how Edward Jenner came to use cowpox virus, a relative of smallpox virus to vaccinate against smallpox. Ordinary people already knew that those women that milk cows have no pox marks on their faces. Let scientists that champion this design nonsense provide a proof of principle in animal models first. The onus lies with them. Many times, people underestimate the compexity of the human genome and how it is expressed. To destroy embryoes on the promise that stem cells harvested from them will be the panacea for several diseases is not science in my view. Let them provide proof of principle using animal models first. That is, let them provide experimental evidence first in these animal models.

If it were that easy, you wouldn't have them experimenting with embryonic stem cells. Clearly the Adult stem cells are much more difficult to work with or manipulate. I even read somewhere that studying embryonic stem cells holds the key to how we can use adult stem cells because obviously the adult cells are products of the embryonic stem cells

Sure, adult stem cells are more difficult to work with than embryonic stem cells. But looking for easier alternatives is not the way to go when what is involved is the starting point of the human physical body.  My view is that human cloning, embroyonic stem cells, invitro fertilization (whether done in a petri dish or by artificial insemination into the body of a woman), designing babies for whatever purpose are not the right way to go. But it is my view, others can have theirs and time will provide evidence for who is right or wrong. The natural laws which to me is the laws of God in the material universe will provide unmistakable judjement on these processes and technigues. Referenced below is a brief summary of IVF as it will help readers have an over view of what is involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilisation

Stay blessed.

Hi Tudor,

These are my views on the issue you raised

[quoteA foetus is alive quite all right but it's the same way a single cell is alive there's no difference.
Going by your argument one can say throwing away sperms is throwing children too.
The main issue here should be when does a collection of tissues become an individual and that to me is after one is born]

[/quote]No, a foetus is not like any other somatic  cell or even a gamete. Neither sperm or egg can develop to a foetus. A fertilized egg is not a body tissue for it contains the entire genetic program which if not prevented from expression results in the birth of a child. Egg and sperm are gametes but once a fertilization takes place, constitute the starting point of biological life.

[quote]Many other discoveries have their potentially dangerous uses. Vaccines could be used as a bio weapon too to wipe out races, nuclear physics inaddition to providing energy can be used for atomic bombs- That didn't stop us from exploiting them, did it?
It all boils down to regulation as if we always pre-consider the potential dangers of each discovery most useful discoveries will never be made

There is no point regulating what one does not understand. Gene therapy with respect to humans is still at its infancy. What scientists are offering are simply possibilities. There is not yet experimental evidence to show that they will work as happened with vaccines. Sure, a virus can engineered as a bioweapon but atleast we  understand how the virus or  other biological agents work, and thus can re-engineer an anti-bioweapon.

I See this in the same light as abortion to save the life of a mother. It's all the same sacrifice

No, it is not. Doctors will only consider abortion to save the life of the mother when there are no other alternatives. Their are alternatives to embryonic stem cells. You can use adult stem cells. There are alternatives to programing an embryo to become a spare part workshop for human parts. You can harvest adult stem cells from the sick person and program it to mature into the required organ replacement.

One can go back and say we started our physical journey with the formation of the sperm cell and ovum afterall we're made up of both components- Are we also wrong in denying this starting point as having anything to do with us?

A sperm cell and an egg does not make us for neither on its own will develope into a baby. It is the union of these two gametes that starts our biological life. I do not see why you cannot see the difference between an egg, a sperm and a ferilized egg. Stay blessed.

Chrisbenogor:
Good afternoon Mr. Nwankwo, hope you are having a good day. I am trying to get everyone to drop the whole my religion is better than yours threads and deal with issues that face us today.
Now to what you said any cure or treatment can only be morally wrong if life is not sacrificed in the process, further down you also admitted that you would endorse remove a foetus to save the life of its mother, I see that as a gray area and more and more it can be stretched. The other embryos that will be destroyed still go back to the issue of at what point does life start and I think that is the biggest challenge this thing will face, I think we all have different points where we believe life starts, a fine line to me is after the child has been born, during an election pregnant women are not counted as two.
But is this not the price we have to pay for freedom? Allowing others do things we do not agree with?
Cheers.

Hi Chris. I am fine over here. The summer here is unusually hot. I guess we enjoy it while it lasts. I do not see a gray area that can be stretched. People clamouring for designer babies are not doing so to save the life of the mother. I also think that because a pregnant woman is not counted as two during election is not relevant in my view to the topic. Aferall, it is the mother that votes, not the baby. My point is that fertilization of an egg by a sperm starts a stupendous process that leads to the birth of a child. I do not see a separation between fertilization, embryo, a child, a tenager or an old man. The same life force or spirit is in all of them. I am yet to see any logical or scientific evidence to show that a foetus is not alife in a way similar to that of a child, a tenageer, an adult or an old man.

I do not think that most people understand the implication of selecting genetic traits as it suits our desires. They are presented with the beautiful picture that it can help cure hereditary diseases but the are not told that it can also be used to create zombie humans, wipe out an ethnic or racial group etc. Why do we need to kill a foetus to cure a disease or genetically engineer an embryo to produce spare body parts for other human beings? The bottom line is that if one does not consider a foetus a human body, then one can do whatever one likes. The paradox is that each of us started our physical journey with conception and yet we want to deny this starting process as not having anything to do with us. Stay blessed.

Chrisbenogor:
I would like to know how you see the idea of designing your own baby. If your family has a trait you do not want a child to carry that big nose that makes you cringe each time you see it, that big head that seems to stick more than your surname, would you consider doing it? What religious roadblocks would you hit?

Hi Chris. As usual, you raise posts that have significant ethical, moral and spiritual implication. Some genetic diseases are meant to be cured but designing a baby to cure those diseases is morally and spiritaully wrong. Any cure or treatment can only be morally and spiritually correct if life is not sacrificed to achieve the process. There are those that argue that a fertilized egg is a bunch of cells. I simply disagree. Without going into the spiritual details of what a foetus is, let me say that a fertilized egg is alife and abortion at any stage of pregnancy, from conception to birth is murder. Abortion in my view should only be undertaken to save the life of the mother. All other reasons are immoral. A human being goes through conception, embryogenesis, birth, childhood, youth, adulthood and old age. It is a continum and any interuption at what ever stage is unethical and spiritually wrong. Spiritually there is essentially no difference between the killing of a fertilized egg, an embryo, a baby, a child, a tenager, an adult or a 100 year old man. In each of the case, the body that housed the soul is forcebly destroyed.
Couples should be encouraged to go for genetic testing but if the result shows  genetic abnormalities, then they have no right to terminate the pregnancy. Science should seek for a cure of those diseases without aborting the baby.  Thus until their are technigues that can correct genetic disorders in embryos in situ, designing of babies is not the answer. Designing a baby is to open up a pandora box that is capable of ending the human race. Your topic concerns only designing incase of diseases. You also forgot that the same technology (if available) can be used to alter anything else from intellegence to eye colour. What happens if such a technology is used by a dictator to mass produce zombie humans that only carry out the macabre wishes of the dictator.
The glamour of designing babies may be appealing to non-sciientists, but the scientific hurdle to cross is enormouous. Many of the genetic disorders arise from a complex interaction of genes in different loci as well as epigenetic factors like regulatory RNAs. The public is always sold this naieve notion, that you just remove an unhealthy gene and replace it with a healthy one. In many cases, the story is much, more complicated. While the genetic basis of Down Syndrome is known, others like autism is unknown inspite of very large studies. The promise of stem cells is also largely over-estimated. Even if thses hurdles are overcome, the core to your post is whether a fertilized egg is a developmental stage in the biological evolution of the human body. My point is that it is, just like the body of a child  or an adult. Thus any scientific technigue or procedure that will require the killing of a foetus to cure a disease, give babies to infertile couples and similar things is wrong.

I am a molecular biologist and support research aimed at eradicating genetic as well as infectious diseases. But in the process, embryoes should not be murdered to achieve the purpose. Alternatives should be explored. The argument that only cells harvested from aborted or frozen embryoes is the gold standard for biomedical research is nonsense. If scientists look for alternatives, they will surely find them.
There is no doubt that living with a handicapped child is an enormous challenge. But it is a challenge that should bring joy instead of saddness and despair. All children, healthy or unhealthy are gifts from God and parents should see it that way. There is no point lamenting.

To answer you question, I will not look for a cure of any disease that involves the killing of an embryo for that is against the laws of God. I will also not involve myself with research dealing with embroyonic stem cells. Stay blessed.

Hi Phemour. Why is post post on ASUU strike deleted?

posakosa:
Nicely stated and well put. I think we should all acknowledge that forgiveness is HARD.

Yes, forgiveness is hard but that is the only path to happiness and spritual freedom. It is often hard becuse we try to do it with our strength. If one seriously wish to have the ability to forgive, I am sure that the strong urge will rise up as a prayer to God and such a person will recieve the purifying power of God that purges ones soul of hate, guilt etc. Stay blessed.

posakosa:
Why doesn't god answer such prayers ? Why do people always say you will die if you talk BAD about a pastor ? Why can't I wish death upon my enemies ?

Prayers that lack genuine love and purity do not even go beyound the personal aura of the person praying, much less gain connection with the power of God. Thus, a prayer against your enemies or a prayer by a pastor against those that disagree with his persuations cannot be answered because they do not spring from love and purity. To pray and have ones prayers answered, one must love his or her enemies , that is, one must be able to genuinely forgive those that hurt them. Except a man or woman can genuinely forgive, then such a man or woman is not of God even if he or she is the founder of a religious group or sect. Neither the victim of a crime nor the pepatrator of a crime will be free from the consequences of the crime except the victim forgives and the offender repents. If the victim does not forgive he or she is chained spiritually to the offender and cannot move forward spiritually. Besides, such an unforgiving attitude prevents the healing power of God reaching the victim, a power that will heal the victim and provide spiritual blessings as a compensation for the crime pepatrated against victim. As for the offender, the power of God will also ensure that he pays for his crimes for no sin or crime will go unatoned for. If however the offender genuinely repents, the consequences arising from his or her evil activity can be mitigated or in exceptional cases annuled. Thus what would have cut off the head of the victim may just remove his cap. I hope that one can see the spiritual liberation that lies in forgiveness. Best wishes.

@m_nwankwo
I get your point and I can feel your persuasions, problem is every other religious sect has a criteria they think should be met if a miracle must occur. If we ask Jesoul, or davidylan I am pretty sure they would have other ideas too. I hope you get my point.

Hi Chris. I do get your point. But your observation that several ideas on miracles are floating around is not enough reason to believe that miracles do not occur or that prayer does not work. One quality that I admire in you is your quest for evidence. I hope you do not ignore this quest for evidence before you conclude on miracles and related matters. I think that is fair to say that you have not yet found evidence that prayer works but it is unfair to say that prayer does not work at all. To say that prayer does not work at all implies that you have objectively looked at all the evidence.  I just hope that you keep searching for the evidence or lack of it. Stay blessed.

Chrisbenogor:
Well it was an experiment to test the proposition that praying for sick patients improves their health. The patients were assigned, strictly at random, to an experimental group (received prayers) or a control group (received no prayers). Neither the patients, nor their doctors or caregivers, nor the experimenters were allowed to know which patients were being prayed for and which patients were controls. The team of researchers spending $2.4 million of Templeton money under the leadership of Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston. Dr Benson was earlier quoted in a Templeton press release as 'believing that evidence for the efficacy of intercessory prayer in medicinal settings is mounting'. Dr Benson and his team monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals, all of whom received coronary bypass surgery. The patients were divided into three groups. Group 1 received prayers and didn't know it. Group 2 (the control group) received no prayers and didn't know it. Group 3 received prayers and did know it. The comparison between Groups 1 and 2 tests for the efficacy of intercessory prayer. Group 3 tests for possible
psychosomatic effects of knowing that one is being prayed for. Prayers were delivered by the congregations of three churches, one in Minnesota, one in Massachusetts and one in Missouri, all distant from the three hospitals.
The results, reported in the American Heart Journal of April 2006, were clear-cut. There was no difference between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not. What a surprise. There was a difference between those who knew they had been prayed for and those who did not know one way or the other; but it went in the wrong direction. Those who knew they had been the beneficiaries of prayer suffered significantly more complications than those who did not.

Hi Chris. How are you? The above study is flawed by the very way it was designed. The researchers seem not to understand what prayer is and how it works. First of all, prayer is to seek and establish connection with God or the power of God.With respect to the prayer for healing, it is mandatory that the person doing the prayer has the ability to establish this connection and draw from the power of God the healing energies or radiations to effect a cure. Secondly, it is also mandatory that the person that should recieve the healing has opened his soul to the healing power of God and that is where faith and conviction in the omnipotence of God comes in. Thirdly, it is also mandatory that the spiritual path of the sick person, that is the threads of fate or karmic threads that are active in the sick person is in synchronism and not antagonistic to the power of God. Fourthly, the healing will help the cured person to advance spiritaully, that is, it will enable the cured person to obey the laws of God here and hereafter. Besides these, their are innumerable conditions which must be fufilled before a genuine healing is granted. Most prayers go unswered because they did not fufill these conditions. Indeed, most prayers do not even go beyound the personal aura of the faith healer, much less make a connection with God. Even the inner life of the researchers (often different from what people see) can strongly interfer with the healing energy. Thus when some researchers as above pronounce that prayers do not work, they are actually laying bare the state of their own souls. If I were them, I will look for individuals whose past activities give strong suggestion that God blessed them with healing ability. I will then randomly select patients  and give them the choice to choose which one they will ask for Gods help. If they do it this way I bet you that atleast one of the patients will recieve a cure which placebo effect cannot accont for. In very serious organic illness like cancer for instance, placebo effect cannot cure. Thus if a cure (not just an improvement) happens in such a case, then it will be clear that an intervention beyound medical science has taken place, that is, a miracle has occured.

Most illness are not meant to be cured because they sufferer still needs the experience for his own maturity or is reaping what they have sown in a past or present lives or  indeed asked for it (often unknown to him) so that he can be prepared for a future task or to make the work of God manifest. Thus it is very possible that one who will in a later incarnation be called to be an exceptional eye surgeon or one with the ability to heal blind people may as part of his training accept to be blind in this earthlife. I do not wish to broaden this picture at this point but just to point out that things are not as simplistic as science or religion seem to suggest. It is true that many prayers are not answered but the reason is that the praying ones have no ability, the recieving ones are unworthy of the healing  and the prayers are not according to the laws of God. A prayer has a chance of reaching God if it is  pure and came out of genuine love. It is this love and purity that gives such prayers the bouyancy to come incontact with the power of God and  in  rare exceptional cases with God himself. Stay blessed.

jackdaniel:
m=nwankwo=> I respect your choice and principles. very well said.
"when the divine wills the gates and the veil shall be opened";
please modify your last post of my quote, i mean the description.cheers.

Hi JackDaniel. I guess that I have already modified your quote as you requested. See my penultimate post. Stay blessed.

jackdaniel:
m-nwankwo=>
I know what you mean; i shall remove it's description, it was meant for you. the being in question is not of the elements.Any idea of it? i think it's personal to me, if i have an insight on it.

I am pleased that you recognised that and I have modified your quote as you wished. Next time the being appears to you, ask him who he is. If your soul is pure, you will certainly know who he is and what he wants to convey to you. Best wishes.

jackdaniel:
m-nwankwo=> I believe you are conversant with Beings, i have a question?

  i won't mind calling you or contacting you via e-mail,

Hi again Jackdaniel. I am blessed to know things about elemental beings. But I keep to describing their activities and avoid giving details of how the look. Such personal description of how they look can very easily lead people to consciously or uncounsciously produce intuitive forms modelled according to what I described. I will therefore be partly responsible to God for the havoc these intutive forms produced as a result of my description bring on their originators. Thus I am sorry that I will not respond to this your question either here or in private communication. Besides I do not see how information about the being you described will benefit you or any other person spiritually. Stay blessed.

@JackDaniel

@m-nwankwo=> I will use the ancient deity Baal as a case study;
Baal was an ancient deity in the ancient semitic world. Baal was known as the lord of the heavens, fertility, etc. Even the Christian and the Jewish literatures made reference of the Israelites seeking the blessing of the prophet of Baal, called Baal-am. The importance of the veneration of Baal could be seen with the reference to the value and the impact Baal-am would have on the future of the Israelites; "That was why it was necessary to seek his blessing and not his curse". That introduction being made i'll proceed.
Over centuries it will be noted that Baal devolved into the state of a demonic entity by those who venerated and valued the blessing of his prophet.
That gives rise to so many questions on his metamorphosis from a highly lofty being willed to control the heavens, and now devolving into an arch demonic being termed Beelzebub or Baal-ze-bub the "Lord of Flies".

Thank you very much for this specific example. Baal has always and even today remains a a worship demon, that is a form of intuitive voiltion embodying worship. It was never a god or goddess but pretends to be one. As long as its creators worship or venerate it, then it offers them apparent blessings. However, no sooner is its authority questioned, it gets angry just like a child whose favorite toy was removed. Baal then curses those who previously he has blessed. Followers who have withnessed both the apparent blessings as well as the curses tell their experiences by word of mouth which then is passed on. Thus, in different epochs baal can be depicted both as a diety that brings good and evil depending on what its followers experienced. In this way, several description of this demon has arisen. What however has not changed is its specie as a worship intutitive form, that is an intutive form which people venerate or worship. Baal is a clear example of how to even recognise these demons of worship. Any creature of God as well as pure intutive forms arising from the voilition of Gods creatures do not seek for worship or veneration. Indeed when individuals who for some reasons are permitted to come in contact with them venerate or worship them, such activity is met with strong rebuke and a loss of connection with such servants of God or pure entities produced by Gods creatures. No sooner do these servants of God disappear because of the false attitude of humans , then the intutive form of worship produced as a result of this false attitude then appears pretending to be the original servant of God or pure intutive volitions. That is the beginning of these dieties and it is the same in all traditions, whether it is Africa, Europe, South America, Asia etc. Over millenia, these intutive forms of worship become so powerful and have an immense control on over its followers. Their followers will never believe that that is their own production. I already have alluded that in the realm of these demons and false gods everything is possible and impossible. Deception is the constant thing in these realms. However a man with a simple belief in God can easily produce tangible evidence that these false gods and goddeses are only powerful because they draw strength from millions of its followers. In addition, their power can very easily be nullified by one who stands in the power of God. But one must make sure that he stands in Gods power or else they can be harmed and this will  manifests as physical illness or mental illness.

The earlier post was written in a rush; with a little time on my side, i will comment more.

Seeing the creator in the light of his Totality free's one from the shackles of Duality i.e the concept of Good and Evil. G-d is the embodiment of both duality a.k.a ALL. I will make a reference of the Christian and the Jewish holy literature Isaiah 45:7="I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Yes one will argue; "it says do and not, I am these things", but it should be noted that all was made from the original cause; all that is, is of him and there is non without him .
On your question of the Ebola Virus; i will say G-d is the Ebola virus, but the Ebola virus is not G-d. The concept of duality is bound to create a dogmatic shackle, which tends to be hard to break, this concept is bound to lead the mind into error.We all know that the mind is a slave to classification; due to its limitation. In my believe, a greater form of morality is one that deals with Causes and Consequences. A mind tailored to live by the laws of Cause and Effects would uphold moral virtues in a greater light and stability.
On your question of the artist and the painting, i believe the artist is his painting, but the painting is not the artist. The painting would always be referred to in conjunction with the artist, but not vice-versa. This might sound ludicrous in a world were we are bound to be limited by the laws of separation and duality. Even quantum physics has thrown more light on the interconnectivity of all. The all in my opinion is G-d.

I have stated my position on this issue in my previous posts. If you believe that an artist is his paintings, then their in nothing more I can say.

@ m-nwankwo=> Please throw more light on this, I am all ears . Once had an encounter with Udines, very funny creatures i must say.

I will throw more light if specific questions that will be spiritually beneficial to discussants or readers arise. I am pleased that you have encoutered udines. However I do not think they are funny but they will surely make you laugh a lot. They always remind me of an excited baby who have just learned how to sit or the way their eyes shone when they have accomplished a milestone like sitting, crawling or walking for the first time. Stay blessed.

@Jackdaniel

@M-nwankwo=> On this issue i'll give one more analysis: a lion is called a lion in it's totality, if you cut it's head ,will you refer to the lions head as the lion or will you refer it as the lions head.The whole makes up the entity, and the part cannot be addressed as the whole. That was my point.I am also of the opinion that the fragment can never perceive the whole in it's totality,"can the lions hair perceive the lion?". The adequate definition of concepts are in thier totality and not in its parts. As i said, my analogy might be wrong because i believe beings of casualty are not capable of describing the non-causal

By your lion analogy, you seem to be saying that man, viruses, electrons, bacteria, stones, stars etc are parts of God. I have previously asked you  if a virus is a part of God, and what is God doing in Ebola virus or HIV. It is indeed strange that a part of God will infect and kill another part of God. By the way, I could engineer an artificial virus in my lab. Craig Venter has already done so. Are such artifical viruses also parts of God? Are motor cars, aeroplanes, buildings also parts of God? My view is the whole is not God but his creation and the fragments are simply parts, species, or creatures in creation. A part of creation like man cannot concieve of the whole creation, much less of the creator. Only God is non-causal or independent while everything else owns it existence to God and is absolutely dependent on God. Thus I do not share the view that God or his essence is present in creation and his creatures.  

eg1 The willed gods of the ancients are the demons of the goetia's and legamattons.

I do not know  what "willed gods of the ancients" are and how they become "demons of the goetia and legamattons". Kindly explain to me the above. I may then comment on gods and goddesses and the demons or evil intutive forms claiming to be these gods and goddesses.

=. you could veil it if you choose. I hope the knowledge will be  that which will uplift, rather than that which will destroy   - but the light of knowledge should raised up high, to uplift the spirit. "we are the ones we have been waiting for"

There is no mystery or secret about elemental beings. We cannot be here without them and they are innumerable numbers of them. What we call nature is the work of elemental beings. They are involved with stupendous and simple happenings like the formation of the universes, galaxies, suns etc,  lightining, so called natural "disasters" , air cycles, water cycles, fire etc, as well as recording our actions, words, thoughts and intutive voilition with mathematical exactitude etc. Naturally, different elemental beings carry out these tasks. In ancient times and even today among simple people that are closer to nature, the denser species of these elementals like the gnomes , salamanders, water sprites etc can be seen by people. Atimes some of these people can also see another specie of elementals called the fairies. Specially blessed ones can also see the lords of these elemental beings , called the gods and goddesses and in exceptional cases, specially gifted ones can also see the lords of these gods and goddesses, and on an on the chain of linkage moves upwards till one gets to the sustantiate origin of these radiations which have formed themselves into different elemental beings and their leaders. All elemental beings, high or low are creatures of God and they are servants of God. Some dense ones like the gnomes are small in size, while some are so big that they can hold our entire universe in the palm of their hands. And yet even these mighty ones are just creatures and servants of God. Unfortunately, the connection of human beings to elementals has been lost due o our sinful nature and we are paying a heavy prize for it. Have we not cut of our connection with them, we would have been protected from many a harm including so called natural disasters, diseases etc. We would have through their guidance transformed this earth into a paradise where only the will of God reigns supreme.

In creation, there should be no room for mystism, everything should lie clear before the human spirit. Those who seek will surely find God without books, mystical trianing or religious tradition. God who created man as spirit has equipped man with all the talents. All we need do is to develope these talents into abilities as God wants us. Stay blessed.

Hi jackdaniel. Thanks for your views. I address the issues you raised as follows:

@M-Nwankwo=> Thanks for sharing your insight, it's really illuminating . Yet, i will wish to draw your attention on certain issues.

1)"on your analysis of the distinction between the creator and the created(enamation)"=> on this issue, i believe that distinction of G-d and his creatures might not be necessary since it relies on the perception of the perceiver. I am of the opinion that G-d is in the whole and not in fragment. This view shouldn't be confused with the source of all creation. i will like to illustrate my point with a simple number formalism which i have used in  a previous post, but however with some new points.

Eqn1: G-d={infinity-0-infinity}.

The origin/source and its end can't be known  by beings of causality. I beg to differ in your analysis, by saying all is G-d, but no single unit is G-d. i would define G-d as the sum of the set of all, with no beginning and no end. This in my opinion is why the ancients have always used the circle as a representation of the unity of G-d, because he  is comprised of all. This definiton how ever might be flawed since it is given by a being of casualty , however when i tackle such concepts i try to use the purest of all intuitive representation/formalism a.k.a numbers.

I do not agree that all is God but no single unit is God. If that is the case what are the fragments or single units made of. Secondly how can the fragment or single unit concieve of the whole? If God is comprised of all, are the single units parts of God. If they are, then explain what God will be doing in Ebola virus or even in viruses that Craig Venter haS created in his lab. If however the single units are not parts of God, then what are they? My view is both the parts and the whole are not God but creation of God. I do not know why some ancients uses a circle to represent the unity of God. My view is that a cycle referes to creation for the circle itself is a form, that is,  it can be substantiated in a picture. Thus God has no representation, that is, no form can depict God. Thus, neither the circle, numbers or any formation can be used to depict God. The circle represents the cycling of radiations in the creation of God, it depicts the beginning and the end of the creation of God. God, the creator stands outside and above his creations. A work is not a part of its creator. An artist is not in his paintings, an author is not in his books etc and yet we can learn so much about the talent of the artist or an author by looking at his paintings or books. Although this is a crude anology, it gives a faint reflection of the creator God and his creations.

On this i beg to differ; cos i have observed some intuitive form will beyond the realms of their original program e.g The gods of ancient societies born out of the will and intuition for specific purposes, but now due to some factors, have devolve into states of nihilistic chaos.

Give specific examples and I will reply.

And also you mentioned about the beings of the elements in your thread, you seem to have a great insight on the activities of the elementals; wow, can you share your view on the elementals, i will love to hear

I am permitted to know certain things about elemental beings and will share them if I sense it will be helpful spiritually to discussants. Stay blessed.

Jagoon:
@M_nwanko
welcome back from your vacation i don't know what to say but your posts are double edge. They serve to both enlighten and confuse us further

Hi Jagoon. I am sorry if my posts seem confusing. Peharps, you can point out aspects of it that are not clear and I will try to put it in a clearer light. Stay blessed.

@Pastor AIO

I wish that M_Nwankwo discovers this thread soon, cos I would be interested to know what his contribution to such a thread would be.

Is our Will or our Intent something separate from an egregore?

Hi Pastor. Apologies for my late reply. I was away on holiday. I have gone through the thread and there  are lot of issues raised that I am not sure where to start. All the same, I will briefly present my view on some of the issues. First, let me say that their is a distinction between the creator, God and his creations. All creations, those that are visible or invinsible, formed or formless come from the radiations or emanations of God. The radiation of God is however not God, even though it has its source in God. A crude analogy will be the sun and its rays. The rays of the sun has its source in the sun but is not the sun. Thus, nothing is really created for what ever we think is created comes from transformation of the radiation of God or precipitation of this radiation of God. Thus human beings, angels, the cosmos, plants, stones etc are simply different precipitations from this radiation of God. Thus it is correct in my view to say that all creatures and the indeed the whole creation came from God, that is that they are emanations from GOD that has taken form but it will be incorrect in my sensing to say that they have God in themselves. The precipitations of the radiations of God can be reproduced in a picture, that is, they can be substantiated into a form. However the ability to percieve the form lies at the point at which such a precipitation came out of the radiation of God . If for example we designate precipations out of the radiations of God to number 1 to 7 for instance, with I being creatures that originated from radiations that are closer to God and 7 being those that are furtherest from God. Then if a creature that came into being at 7 is shown creatures or creations in 6, then it will be formless and yet a creature that has its origin in 5 will clearly see that creatures and worlds in 6 has form. What I am trying to say is that in reality only God is formless, the formlessness in any other thing is not real but apparent and simply defines the origin of the creature and his level spiritual counsciouness. Thus even the entire creation has form, space and time but for a human spirit who is simply a very small part of creation, the spirit can percieve the entire creations as formless, timeless and without space. Thus, only God is eternal. The forms of the radiations of God of which the human spirit is just one specie can only be granted eternal life if God permits. Thus  God is LIFE. All creatures and creations in their many forms are simply a consequence of LIFE but not LIFE itself. Again, my view is that counsciousness is not God. Ego-consciousness (spiritual counsciousness), connsciousness, uncounsciousness etc are intrinsic nature of species that arose from the radiations of God. Some of these species are uncounscious, some are conscious, some are ego counscious and some can develop from uncounsciousness to consciousness. After this brief digression, let me return to the main issue of the thread. I will not like to use the word egregores. I will rather use thought forms. Thought forms as the words say are forms of our thoughts. The impetus for their formation comes from the thoughts which our brain generates. Elemetental beings similar to water, air, fire and earth elements pick up our thoughts and fashion them into a form that embodies our thoughts. Thus, thoughts of evvy, hatred, lust as well as love, humility, heroism etc have distinct colours as well as distinct tones which a person blessed with pure clirvoyant or clairaudient abilities can easily differentiate. Thoughts forms whether they are good or bad are anchored in a plane that people generally refer to the astral world. Thought forms are dependent on their producers and those who think alike. They can cause havoc if they are evil but can also bring blessings if they are good. Thought forms have no will of their own but embodies the expressed toughts of its creator or rather its producer. Thus thought forms are a consequence of the ability of our brain to think. It has no direct connection with the spirit.
Then their is a form produced as a result of our spiritual will. This is much more powerful than thought forms. The human spirit has the ability to open up to the power of God vibrating in creation. The brain has not this connection. As soon as a human spirit will something, which in most cases is not recognised by the brain, the expressed will of the human spirit comes into contact with the neutral power of God vibrating in creation. The union of the human spiritual voilition with the neutral power of God brings into being a form called intutive forms. Like everything else, the fashoning of these forms are carried out by another species of elemental beings. Unlike thought forms which are bound to the astral world, intutive forms penatrate into worlds higher as well as lower than the astral world depending on wheather they are good or evil. If they are pure, radiations from these forms can actually reach as far as heaven by a process of radiation fashioning. Maybe some day we can discuss about fashioning of radiation and how they can form a step ladder drawing a human spirit upwards to the kingdom of God. Now these intuitive forms in the process of their formation, absorb a elemental particle, similar to species form which animal souls originate. The absorption of these elemental particle gives the intuitive form a motive power, that is it can act with or without the consent of its producer or people who wills the same way as the producer . But the intuitive form lacks the capacity to will, it only carries out the original program that led to its formation. Thus if it is an envy form, it can not suddenly change to a lust form or a peace form but carries out envious activities in the most bizzare form. Hell for instance is a world or rather worlds that arose as a results of the evil intutive voilition of men. Hell is not a creation of God but rather the work of man. The same also goes for the masters and enlightened ones of many religions, sects and mystical organisations. Thus for instance, there are a lot of intutive forms that claim to be Jesus Christ and they vary depending on which religious or mystical tradition gave rise to it. What is however unknown to these sages and religious priests is that the object of their worship, veneration and the source of their power are simply their own productions. It is a sham world where everthing is possible and impossible.. Even the religious forum on nairaland and its participants have  thought and in some cases intuitive forms. I will stop here for now. Stay blessed.