Deep Sight:

What was the motivation behind this reported statement? Was it or was it not due to Nazi harrassment? Did it, or did it not originate from security intimidation by the Nazi Regime? Is it possibly the case, or not, that such a statement was made on the express insistence of the Nazi regime? Was Abd-ru-Shin arrested, or not arrested, by the Nazi regime at any point in time with regard to any matters associated thereto?

Look particularly at the line I have highlighted in red. What was that "necessity" or "imperative"?

I would be interested to know.

Also, the answers may have a bearing on your discussion with shinealight.

Abdrushin was arrested and prohibited by the Nazi from continuing his work. It is one of the main reasons why he issued the statement. The other reason is also the massive failure of called ones, a failure that shocked Abdrushin to the core. The context is that Abdrushin did revise some of his statements based on prevailing situations as well as the spiritual state of mankind. As always stay blessed.

Hi Shinealight,
Thanks again for your well reasoned response. I reply as follows:

Well, I believe that nobody on earth, past or present, is in a position to know the Will of God better than the Trigon of Abd-ru-shin, Maria and Irmingard. I therefore think a little humility and modesty is called for when discussing these matters!

Thank you for your advise. My perception is that Abdrushin have already explained the will of GOD in the Grail Message and there is not one sentence from him on the Grail Movement and its benefits. Other citations attributed to Abdrushin but not in the Grail Message are not authoritative for me. Those citations were made within a context and only in that context can it be interpreted. There is nothing wrong in having a loose association of individuals who want to exchange ideas on the Grail Message and inform their fellow men of the existence of the Grail Message. Our exchanges on nairaland is a mirror of they way it should be but if we start to wrap structures and organization around these exchanges, then it becomes a movement, indeed a religion and that in my perception is contrary to the will of GOD. Why will a message that is only addressed to each individual soul have an organization or movement about it?

Further on the quotation I cited earlier, Abd-ru-shin himself reportedly stated as follows:

"....Since I cannot therefore bind myself to the associations, while indeed recognising their beneficial result for many an individual, I created out of the necessity for me to remain alone 'Der Ruf' as mediator between all readers and associations. In it they are given the opportunity to exchange information and wishes. Space will always be kept available for these purposes free of charge. May 'Der Ruf' awaken many souls, bring enlightenment, and with it peace and progress, to all serious seekers!"

If Abd-ru-shin himself stated that he recognised the beneficial result of the Associations for many an individual, then who are we to say it is contrary to the Will of God? Are we in a position know the Will of God better than him?

In another context Abdrushin literally dissociated himself from the Grail Movement and directed that the movement should not continue in whatever form. In 1938, Abdrushin reportedly wrote:
[b]"I serve notice that all subsequent and existing foreign organizations, which are built upon the Grail Teaching, must restrict any subsequent continuation of their activity to a responsible manner within the laws of their land, so that I myself have in no way anything to do with these organizations, and that every mandate given by me in this direction - whether business or of an organizational kind - is to be regarded as expired. No one is authorized to appoint a commission of any kind on my behalf:

- All mandates issued by me of a business or private nature are terminated. Only the full power of attorney for attorney Dr. Karl Polaczek remains intact, which is to be considered authorized decree, keeping with the spirit of my intent.

- I demand that all my former adherents discontinue every community, every collaboration and every activity that could be interpreted as a continuation of the Movement led by me.

- It is my particular wish that all former members of the Grail Settlement in Vomperberg leave that settlement or its vicinity as soon as possible.

- It is necessary to avoid even the appearance as if the Movement is continuing in any form whatsoever.

He who acts against my expressed wishes, acts against me and on his own responsibility.

Innsbruck, July 19, 1938

Oskar Bernhardt (signed by hand)"[/b]

The Grail Acts were instituted by Abd-ru-shin himself while on earth. The Disciples/Apostles and other Called Ones are spiritually chosen to mediate the 'Power' to those who ask for it. Note that I said 'spiritually chosen' not appointed or elected by men on the basis of erudition or being scholarly brilliant. Again no-one is compelled to recognise or accept those who have been so chosen to mediate this Power. Everyone is free to go his/her own way as s/he pleases.

What if those who are "spiritually choosen" were actually not choosen or do you reject that such possiblity exist?. Do you think that Siegfield Bernhardt (leader of one faction), Jurgen Sprick (leader of another faction), Roselis von Saas (ex-leader of yet another faction) will consider those called by the leaders of opposing faction as genuine called ones. Will Siegfield Bernhardt allow Jorgen Sprick to officiate in a festival at Vomperberg, and vice versa?

Again, the short-comings and character faults of men which manifest in vanity, conceit or inordinate ambition to be famous or to be well-regarded among peers, etc are a universal occurrence in all human endeavours and interactions. This cannot and should not be allowed to prevent/abort a serious volition from being transformed into deed. To allow this is to give victory to the Darkness and its minions who never wish for anything good or noble to take root and blossom.

You do not need a movement or an organization to serve GOD and his will. If some people find that belonging to a church, movement or societies helps them to tune in to the will of GOD, then by all mean they should continue with the movements or associations. My point is simple, the salvation of each of us depends on how our activities are in sync with the will of GOD and nothing more. The best way to spread the Grail Message and develop spiritually is to live in the sense of Truth as mediated in the Grail Message. Stay blessed.

shinealight: @ M_Nwankwo

The Grail Movement definitely existed during the time of Abd-ru-shin on earth. The reason for his refusal to lead the Associations had also been given in the cited quotation. Furthermore, what he had to say about the Grail Movement in answer to Question 7 in "Questions and Answers By Abd-ru-shin" was certainly not a condemnation or a disavowal. The Grail Movement was also actively nurtured and sustained by Maria and Irmingard who were part of the Trigon and who dedicated their lives to the furtherance of the Work of Abd-ru-shin.

Having noted the above, one should hasten to add that in any endeavour where human beings are involved, there will always be disagreements on points of view, perceptions, etc. This is inevitable. However, these are not good enough reasons to throw away the baby with the bath-water!

Finally, I would advise every serious seeker and reader of the Grail Message to also read the book (Questions & Answers) in addition to reading the Grail Message itself as the answers given to various questions provide a succinct summary of the concepts explained in the Grail Message. Readers resident in the UK can obtain a copy through this link:
http://www.gapc-uk.org/questionsandanswers.php

I wish you all Strength!

Hi again Shinealight. That the Grail Movement existed during the time of Abdrushin is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether the Grail Movement is according to the will of GOD. I maintain that like all sects, it is not the will of GOD to form movements around the truth or truth bringers.I do not make any distinction between the Grail movement and any other church, sect or religion that is formed around the truth or truth bringers. Abdrushin answer to question 64 (Question and Answers)on the Grail Message and the sects in my perception applies to every movement or sect including the Grail Movement.

No, I am not throwing the baby out with the bath water. What I trying to convey is that Grail Message, and Grail acts stands independent of the Grail Movement. I do not believe that the calling of Maria and Irmingard had anything to do with "nurturing and sustaining" the Grail Movement. Abdrushin did not come to earth to establish a movement, it is not part of his mission. Neither is it the mission of Irmingard and Maria to "nurture, sustain or establish" the Grail Movement. My own personal experience of the events at that time is that like Abdrushin both Maria and Irmingard should not lead or be part of any movement or sect.

No, the fragmentation of the Grail Movement is not just because of disagreements on points of view or perception but because of struggle for power and authority by its leaders and called ones. The founder of Brazilan Grail Movement (Odem De Graal)broke way from the Grail Movement in Vomperberg because she did not recognize the authority of Irmingard and Alexander. The same for the french and swiss factions and the same blue print have been followed by later day break-way factions. When envoys, apostles and disciples dispute among themselves on who is the genuine representative of the Light, one does not need to be a seer to sense that something is fundamentally wrong.Stay blessed.

shinealight:


@ m nwankwo

Thanks for sharing the above perceptions which I view and respect as your personal decision as to the way of proceeding. However, for the benefit of readers in general, I wish to note that Abd-ru-shin (the Author of the Grail Message) permitted Crossbearers to congregate around his person and he also instituted forms of worship which he personally presided over during Hours of Worship & Grail Festivals while he was on earth. Had these actions been totally contrary to the Laws of God, he certainly would not have encouraged them. He would simply have recorded his Message and kept everyone at a distance.

The following also shows an excerpt from the Forward to a Periodical which Abd-ru-shin reportedly issued in 1927:
"....In many places, "Independent Associations devoted to the thoughts of my lectures" are being formed, in order by working together to delve ever more deeply into the Truths of the great Creation, thereby also to recognise the Will of the Creator aright.
Although I joyfully hail the associations, I nevertheless cannot lead them nor can I take part in them.......
I must be, and remain, free in what I have to say!".

Would he have joyfully hailed the Associatios if their formation were contrary to the laws of God? Certainly not!

Also, Irmingard the Pure Lily (a part of the Trigon in whom an 'Unsubstantiate Spark' had been sunk) left Crossbearers with a legacy that was summed up as follows: "Stand together, serve together, thank GOD the Lord". This legacy certainly does not negate the idea of working together in a Group or Movement towards the achievement of a shared spiritual goal.

I believe that what is definitely not advisable is for an individual to abandone his/her own two limbs for crutches in the form of over-reliance or over-dependence on other people or organisations in the quest for spiritual development.
Regards and stay blessed.

Hi Shinealight. Thanks for your response. Why do you think that Abd-ru-shin will hail associations formed around the Grail Message and yet refuse to be part of them or lead any of them? Abd-ru-shin never established any movement nor did he encourage the formation of such movements. I have in my previous mail clearly stated that there is nothing wrong in principle in coming together with the goal of informing other human beings of the existence of the Grail Message but the reality is that human beings have always introduced there personal opinions and prejudices to the Truth. Even with the highest spiritual guidance, the human spirit is unreliable.The Grail Message has everything that all creatures need for their salvation. Abdrushin brought the Truth in the Grail Message and that is enough for the salvation of men. If people want to form associations or movements, they are free to do so but they must realize that these associations or movements does not lift a man even one step to God.

Now, Grail acts are absolutely independent of associations or movements for they originate in the will of GOD. The transmission of the power of GOD during Grail acts simply requires one who is blessed with the ability to carry out such acts and a recipient who is inwardly open to the reception of the power of GOD. Such acts can happen within and outside Grail temples or hall of worship. It can happen in a dream, a beach, in the living room or even in a church if the conditions I mentioned above are met.

The dissensions among the various Grail Movements is a sign that these are purely personality cults and nothing more. If they genuinely hold the Grail Message as the Truth, why do they quibble and dispute among themselves? The matters which these various groups dispute about have nothing to do with living in the sense of the laws of GOD. My perception is that the leaders of the various Grail Movements are leading men to themselves and not to the Truth or Grail Message. Even sacred matters like Grail acts have become trivialized that the leaders of the various movements have arrogated to themselves the power to decide which Grail acts are genuine and those that are not. A Grail act performed by the leader of Grail Movement "A" is declared null and void by the leader of Grail Movement "B". When men begin to make decisions which only GOD can make, the end is near. Stay blessed.

musKeeto: Just popped in to say hi to the ever-present, seldom posting M_Nwankwo.. Happy new year Sir...

Hahahhaahhaa muskeeto. What a coincidence. It seems you posted when I was typing a post on this thread. Thanks for your kind thoughts. I will love to post more but I only post when I feel the inner urge to do so. Stay blessed.

shinealight: Justcool

2.) What should be the advice to Seekers who wish to take the next step on the path, having come to recognition of the Word of Truth? Should this be simply to read the Message and do their utmost to apply it in their private lives? Or is it advantageous for them to be part of an organisation which affords exchange/sharing of perceptions as well as engaging in a co-ordinated activity geared towards the spread of the Message? Is there a role for the Mountain of Salvation in all this?

The above question was directed to Justcool but permit me to offer my own perception on them. Movements, societies or groups formed around the Grail Message are not a requirement for living in the sense of the laws of GOD. I will even go further to say that it is not the will of GOD for human beings to form movements, churches, societies around the truth or the truth bringer. The will of GOD is for human beings to inwardly absorb the truth and live accordingly. He or she who have come to personal recognition of the Truth and lives accordingly already have in his hands the keys to the luminous kingdom of GOD. In his or her experiencing he or she will be guided to events, circumstances, human beings, invisible servants of GOD, etc that will deepen his recognition and lovingly guide him to the luminous kingdom of GOD. In the luminous kingdom of GOD, there are only beings or creatures that swing in the will of GOD. You will not find any church or movement in the kingdom of GOD and that also includes the various forms of the Grail Movement. There is nothing wrong (in principle) from coming together to inform other human beings about the Grail Message but without exception, the man of today have the propensity of turning any grain of Truth into a religion. Thus although the initial volition of those who formed the various movements around the Grail Message was to spread the Grail Message, it did not take long for personal ideas to take foothold and turn the various "Grail" sects into religions. My own perception is that not even one of the various movements formed around the Grail Message are accordingly to the will of GOD. All of them will disintegrate from within. Does it mean that one who lives in the sense of the Truth should have nothing to do with individuals that belong to these various movements with regard to spread of the message, hours of worship or even Grail festivals? The answer is to follow your intuition for their are still some individuals in these various movements that still stand in the light of Truth and remain faithful to there spiritual calling amidst the decaying organizational structures that surround. If one stands in the Truth, one can easily be led to those individuals or in some cases called ones or servants of GOD that are no longer in physical bodies. Thus a genuine seeker who needs to absorb a Grail act for his continual spiritual development will be led to called ones who have been blessed with the ability to perform such an act. Such a called one may or may not be affiliated with the various movements formed around the Grail Message. The omniscience of GOD ensures that he who is spiritually qualified to receive a Grail act will receive it whether or not he has an earthly affiliation with any of the various movements. There are people presently (not just in past eras) who bear the cross of truth in their foreheads and yet these individuals have never stepped into an earthly Grail temple or hall of worship. I am sure you can easily surmise how that is possible.

Now to the issue of called ones. He who stands in the light of Truth has the sacred duty to only live in the sense of the laws of God in all his being. He or she should live according to the laws of GOD in all his activities, visible as well as invisible, private as well as public. This is even more so for called ones because they are specially blessed and must be a shining example on what it means to be a genuine servant of GOD. Whatever we do in private will finally come out to the public for the laws of GOD will compel us to show our true selves. Thus a called one that lives an inwardly impure lives will sooner expose himself because the laws of GOD will compel him to do so. No person should invade the privacy of others either through gossip or slander but on no account should the weaknesses of any of us including a called one be glossed over. A called one (or any creature) that secretly or openly contravenes the commandment of GOD will sooner rather than later fall out of sync with the power of GOD for his sinful activities dims the connection with the LIGHT and finally makes it impossible. Because, he has lost the connection to the light or the connection is no more strong, his spiritual perception also narrows and so is his interpretation of the truth in the Grail Message. If a called one or any of us loves GOD, then we have to live according to the commandments of GOD or else we become hypocrites or evil doers. One cannot be a genuine servant of GOD when one constantly disregards the laws of GOD.

As per the mountain of salvation, I agree with Justcool. However, I am of the view that it does not lie with the present or former occupants of the mountain to dictate how the mountain is to serve as an anchorage of the Light. The living will of GOD will reveal such when the time is ripe. Stay blessed.

shinealight: Justcool

2.) What should be the advice to Seekers who wish to take the next step on the path, having come to recognition of the Word of Truth? Should this be simply to read the Message and do their utmost to apply it in their private lives? Or is it advantageous for them to be part of an organisation which affords exchange/sharing of perceptions as well as engaging in a co-ordinated activity geared towards the spread of the Message? Is there a role for the Mountain of Salvation in all this?

The above question was directed to Justcool but permit me to offer my own perception on them. Movements, societies or groups formed around the Grail Message are not a requirement for living in the sense of the laws of GOD. He or she who have come to personal recognition of the Truth and lives accordingly already have in his hands the keys to the luminous kingdom of GOD.

parisienne: M_Nwankwo your views are very deep and yet very simple and in my personal opinion I think there is a part within us whether Christian or Muslim which believes this but religion, societal norms especially in Africa make people feel stifled and inadequate if they fail to conform with the status quo.

I thought deeply on this subject recently. As a Christian I will speak from a christian standpoint, I believe that your actions should not hurt others and there are promises in the bible (for those of us who are Christians) for those who honour their parents, therefore a couple who choose to marry after fulfilling all the 'rites'are doing this to set a good example for others and to honor their parents (we all know how happy and proud mothers are on the wedding day). It seems as if it is all a show for others but we must live an exemplary life and take the feelings of others into consideration. So when the family of an Igbo bride give the groom a list worth half a milion Naira and he hustles for the money and gets it I think he is blessed for honoring her culture and kinsmen. just my opinion though.

Hi parisienne. Thank you for your kind words. What is paramount for the spiritual maturity of each individual is obedience to the will of GOD. If a human being know of the will of GOD in any circumstance, then such a person has the sacred duty to obey the will of GOD. Those who live according to the will of GOD bring only joy, enlightenment and progress to their societies and culture. In reality, culture is not a set of customs and rules decreed by a particular society, rather culture is the transformation of what we absorb out of the will of GOD into earthly realities. I will write about of this in details someday. In my previous posts on this thread, I have said that there is nothing wrong in obeying the prevailing religious, legal, or societal stipulation for marriage provided that hey are not in conflict with what the couples know to be the will of GOD. I also stated that these ceremonies are not the marriage itself, rather they are requirements for the church, society or custom to recognize the union as valid. Genuine marriage as I explained in this thread is consecrated, and made valid by GOD once the couples fulfill the requirement for a genuine marriage as I explained previously. Purely for legal reasons, they can seek the approval of their marriage by going to the registry. They can also inform their friends, families or church by having some form of church or customary wedding. There is nothing wrong in all this. However what is wrong and erroneous is to think that couples who are married genuinely according to the laws of GOD are "living in sin" because they did not perform any of these earthly ceremonies at all or the wife became pregnant before these earthly or religious ceremonies were to take place.

Somehow, it is "good" that the inner senses of most people are closed for were it open, many will shake there heads at the brazen hypocrisy of many a man or woman. If the veils are torn, one will see that some of the couples being condemned as "living in sin" are as pure as one could imagine while those condemning them have heinous immoral sins in around them often in distorted shapes and colors. All of us carry within us and around us all our sins and this can be seen by one whose inner eyes are open. Often what we project ourselves to be is contrast to what we are. It comes as a rude shock to one once inner faculties are open to see the glaring contradiction between what people are and what they project themselves to be. Although this is serious, it also have some dramatic effect. Just imagine a very "pious religious lady" sermonizing and condemning a couple for getting pregnant outside an earthly wedlock, and yet in and around her are various sins of immorality in grotesque shapes and sizes. One can also see that this "pious lady" have committed several abortions as forms resembling that of little children hang on her neck.

Yes, honor thy father and mother is in a commandment of GOD but in my own sensing the general interpretation that this commandment is directed to children is wrong. My conviction is that this commandment of GOD is directed to parents in the first place and it actually means "Honor fatherhood and motherhood". To honor fatherhood and motherhood simply means that mothers and fathers or potential parents or guardians should live in such an exemplary manner as to awaken in their children or children of others the unquenchable longing for GOD and his will. When such children look into their parents eyes as well as in whatever their parents or guardians do, they will see selfless love, beauty, humility, compassion, etc. The parents or guardians thus become a living example of what it means to love GOD with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. If parents honor fatherhood and motherhood, then in reciprocity the children will honor them. The whole household will only know of joy and supreme happiness for the light of GOD is now anchored in both the parents and the kids. This anchorage of light is like a shield which protects the children from all evil volition and evil until the reach the age to decide for themselves. This shield also prevents the incarnation of dark spirits into these homes.

Now many parents have not kept this commandment of GOD, hence the disaster that we see today in many homes. An irresponsible father who spends most of his time in clubs and comes home drunk is not obeying this commandment. An abusive father who emotionally and physically torments his wife is not obeying the commandment. A mother who flirts about with men and turns the entire household into a depressive state with her antics is not obeying this commandment. Children brought up in such a home end up being spiritually, psychologically and physically damaged. And for parents who first inflicted this unpardonable damage on there kids to demand honor-ship defies all understanding.

Parents who are still alive in their inner being will not demand that the husband of their daughter should pay "an arm and a leg" for them to bless the marriage. Their daughter is not a property to be sold. She is an equal and complimentary being to the man. Bride price should be seen as a symbolic demonstration to the parents of bride that the bridegroom is thankful to them for bringing up his wife accordingly, for giving her the opportunity to be the best she can possibly be in the sense of the laws of GOD. This symbolic thanks can be expressed in words, money or gifts. More enlightened parents even in Igboland do not take any money or gift. They simple want a promise from their son in law that he will love and cherish their daughter. If mother and father in law are interested in the happiness of their daughter and their son in law, they should encourage them to love one another. High pride price, lavish parties and other mundane ceremonies for which many a couple and their families spend much resources on contribute nothing to a happily married life. When all the guests are gone and families and friends go back to their daily routine after these festivities, then the husband and wife are left alone to navigate their future. Only the qualities inherent in both and the grace of GOD will see them through, not the lavish parties and other "frivolities" which they did consider important. As always stay blessed.

Hi truthislight. Thanks for your reasoned response. I have nothing more to add as I know there are enough information in my posts on this thread for one to make an assessment of the truth or otherwise in them. Besides, if one already have the answers to these issues or ones religion has already provided the answers, then one should follow what his religion prescribed. As one follows the prescription, experiences will teach him or her whether such a prescription is in accord with the truth. Stay blessed.

JeSoul: Very powerful stance. Thank you for elaborating. This is something I have quietly thought much about and to hear it expressed like this is a blessing. Thank you! I pray God grants us the grace to do according to His perfect will.

Hi JeSoul. Thanks again for you kind words. I say Amen to your prayer. Stay blessed.

JeSoul:

Hello MNwankwo,

Happy new year sir. I find this post fascinating and simply lovely! Question if I may, you mean a couple who is in a 'true marriage' will never be sexually attracted to someone else? as TruthisLight mentioned, where/how do make room for the shortcomings of men seeing the vast majority of the world does not see marriage like this?

Cheers.

Hi JeSoul. My sister, happy new year to you too. Thank you for your kind words. Yes, a couple in a true marriage will not be s.exually attracted to some one else. The bond between such a husband and wife is of a "frequency" or "wavelength" that is different from that that emanates from others that are single, in non-genuine marriages and other genuine marriages. Now genuine marriage is not static but mobile and that means that the couples involved must continue to strengthen their love for one another and for GOD, as well as further develop those innate qualities which made them spiritually and psychically compatible in the first place. If one or both become negligent, stagnate or willfully refuse to further develop, then the living connection which their union established with the power of GOD begin to loosen, the strong bonds brought about by their genuine love and compatible qualities begin to weaken. They weaken because they are no longer maintained due to negligence, stagnation or indolence. Because of the weakened bond as I explained above, impure thoughts about others can begin to arise. Initially it may just be faint but if the couple continue to weaken the bonds as I explained above, then slowly but inevitably, a marriage that was once genuine no longer exists even though the couples may not be aware of it in the earthly sense. Thus what was once a genuine marriage may end up in divorce or in a soulless non-genuine marriage where all happiness have departed from them.

It is for this reason that we are admonished to "watch and pray". A bird in flight must continue to flab its wings to maintain itself in flight. If the bird loses its alertness and willfully refuse to flab its wings, it will start to descend and will fatally crash to the ground. This crude analogy can be applied to genuine marriages where the couples suddenly stagnate or refuse to further develop and mature the qualities that GOD endowed them with. Motion is a law of creation and there is no exception. Thus if a couple in genuine marriage start having s.exual feelings about others in thoughts, words, intent, imagination,physical action, then something has gone wrong and unless they muster all strength to strengthen the bond linking both of them, as well as the bond linking them to GOD, then these bonds will finally be cut off and the genuine marriage ceases to exist. "Watch and pray" are no empty words. It is a sacred call to spiritual mobility and alertness. As always stay blessed.

Hi truthislight. Thanks for your reasoned reponse. Find below my take on some of the issues you raised

Oga Nwankwo, good day

the issue with this our discussion is that it has no reference point(authority , bible or something) tested and trusted.

i hope we will not just be expressing "ideals" in abstract talk.

Yes, I sparingly refer to authority in discussion on spirituality because each of us is a spirit and GOD endowed each of us the necessary spiritual faculties to know if something is in accord or in opposition to the will of GOD. Yes, what I say may appear ideal but I am aware that God have given us the ability to attain the so called ideal. Many have already being living in what you are referring as ideal marriage. Thus, I do not see what is impractical about that.

exactly how do you practically do this?
(bible said human are imperfect, which is obvious)

How does a tendril of yam seek sunlight once a yam seed is sowed in a fertile soil? Seeking the sunlight is natural to it because that is the way GOD made it. The union of a man and a woman who are meant for each other follows the same process as a tendril of yam. They are drawn to the purifying powers of GOD just like a tendril of yam is drawn to sunlight. The s.exual intinct is relegated to where it naturally belongs. Man was not created imperfect and whatever imperfection you find in man is brought about by man himself by the misapplication of his free will. Man can restore himself to "perfection" by aligning his free will with the will of GOD. If one swim in sync with the water current, one will be carried ashore with effortless ease. If one swim against the current, one will dissipate all his energy and will get drowned. The same applies to how one applies himself to the laws of GOD. My point is that being in a union with one that the laws of GOD meant for you permits one to conquer the morbidity of over cultivated s.exual instinct. I can give practical guidance but giving a set of do`s and dont`s often get people fixated to the concepts and impedes the mobility of the spirit. Spiritual mobility is an indispensable requirement for genuine spiritual growth.

be practical >> the process and state examples withreferences. Hope Not a closed group.

See my response above. There is no person on earth today who have not at one time or the other, in this life or in former incarnation experienced true love and genuine marriage. The knowledge slumbers deep in the soul and all that one needs to do is awaken the spirit. Then in himself or herself one will find the evidence that once their is true marriage as I tried to explain in this thread, one ceases to be a slave to s.exual desires. Even in your own religious denomination, if you look around, you will find couples who are already in a GOD willed marriage. Ask them about their experiences.

true, but right now human are inperfect, how can they manage?

There are many human beings already living in our mist who are no longer slave to the s.exual instint. The idea that humans are imperfect and have no control over the s.exual instinct is erroneous. This view is one that is spread by Lucifer and his agents so as to lull humans into the the delusion that they are helpless in these matters. No, we are not helpless, for the power of GOD is always ready to free anyone from the bondage of sexual propepensity provided such a person asks for such a help genuinely and humbly.

yes it is, without a restrain(law) and control.
Have you ever given your 8yrs old kid absolute freedom? No. Try it.

Without law, how do you get that ^^?

The laws of GOD are alive in the spirit. A human spirit that is incapable of sensing the laws of GOD in himself or herself is already spiritually dead. Many humans can still sense the laws of GOD that are indelibly written in their spirit. The laws of GOD that are written in our spirit are much more powerful and can transform a man to being a servant of GOD. Rules, or earthly laws will never achieve that. At best they lead to temporary solutions akin to treating symptoms of infection rather than the infectious agent.

till voice" why still voice?
Is it because we are inperfect?
How does it tell you who is your wife "appointed or chosen" from heaven and no error?
No attraction, beauty, language or other consideration, you just know?

A one off perfect spot on and you can start having se.x

and one can never go wrong? how ?

Yes, you just know. God endowed each of us with a spiritual faculty which is called intuition. The intuition is capable of instantaneous knowing and awareness without thoughts, words or imagination. I have millions of experiences where I instantaneously become aware of events, circumstances, etc without given it a thought. Many others have similar experiences and there is nothing abstract or magical about it. God did not send us to these lower worlds without fully equipping us.

i know all others that red this will be wandering how?

I will want to tell you that what you pointed out are "idealism" a wished perfect scenerio.

My bible talked about God's kingdom, but you are talking about now.

Care to be practical? How
Hmmm!

There is nothing that I have said in this thread that is idealistic or unattainable. Here and now, some human beings irrespective of religion are already living as if they are in the spiritual kingdom of GOD. Open your eyes and ears and you will meet some of them as you go through your own experiences. Stay blessed.

truthislight:

Good one @striktlymi.

there is a thing about male female relationship, if the rules are not followed we will carry on the "experiment" to the detriment of others and end up encroaching on the rights of others.

The question comes, how, where and when does one draw the line on having s.ex and not having se.x?

When do you conclude that this person is absolutely your compatible partner?

When you have concluded or thought so, is it not possible you may have missed something that can cause a change of heart?
What if you had already cross the line(had s.ex)?

And how many people will you repeat this scenerio with?

The circle goes on and on till only God knows how far it will go.

And wont this lead to abused and exploitation of the "weak" amongst us?

Lol. Better imagined than otherwise.

Hi truthislight. The union of a man and a woman who are meant for each other according to the laws of GOD has nothing to do with free s.ex and experimentation. On the contrary such a union is consecrated by the power of GOD, a power which banishes all lustful thoughts and desires. A man or woman who is inwardly pure do not indulge in secret or open impure wishes and desires. Spiritually free human beings are not victims of the over cultivated s.exual instinct, rather the fact that their marriage is a union of soul mates enables the couples to attract and absorb the purifying powers of GOD. A couple that has absorbed of this power are transformed human beings whose only desire is to bring joy and happiness to the beloved and not to soil him or her with impure wishes and desires. Indeed a marriage that is made in heaven is the best solution to to cure man`s morbid s.exual instinct and return this instinct to its healthy state. S.exual instinct in its healthy state does not torment men, rather, it is a gift of GOD which finds consummation in unions that are in accord with the laws of GOD. S.exual desires arising from a healthy s.exual instinct does not often occur in men. Today, the instinct is diseased and morbid and that is the reason why many a man or woman find it difficult to control.It also the reason why many cannot be in a relationship without harboring open or secret s.exual desires.

The condition for a s.exual relationship according to the laws of GOD is that there has been previously set in motion a perfect spiritual harmony, ie, a marriage according to the laws of GOD. Therefore, the question of s.exually sampling one person after another is totally out of question. When two couples are meant for each other, then the chords holding them together are unbreakable, thus the permanence of the marriage is assured from the very start. The same unbreakable bond of love which has received a higher consecration from the power of GOD eliminates any desire for another man or another woman. The observation that couples in "married" or "unmarried" unions still openly or secretly harbour s.exual desires about another man or woman that is not his spouse or partner is an infallible sign that that marriage did not fulfill the criteria for a genuine marriage according to the laws of GOD, or that one or both partners have stagnated and have refused to develop spiritually, psychically and physically.

Young men and women who are in search of the person meant for them do not need to travel all the continents looking for a soul mate. If they allow the small still voice within them to grow and not forcefully silence it, then, they will very easily identify the man or woman who is their own according to the laws of GOD. Experiencing such a true marriage will give them the conviction that marriage is indeed made in heaven. Stay blessed.

striktlymi: Well Mr. Nwankwo,

Your beliefs are quite interesting but not necessarily consistent with Christianity. Like I said, I respect your view on the matter and quite frankly I am curious to know where 'you peach your tent'.

I am quite sure Christianity, Islam and Atheism are out of the way but I am turn between you being an agnostic or a freethinker though you got me confused with your mention of karma. So where are you coming from? This would be a guide to understanding your view point.


Thanks!

Hi Stikttlymi. Thank you for your question. My conviction are drawn from the work "In The Light Truth-The Grail Message" as well as my experiences in both the physically visible and invisible worlds of GOD. Stay blessed.

Hi Striktlyml,

Thank you for your reasoned response. I reply to some of the points you raised as follows:

I don't know what your definition of fornication is cause I am quite concerned that you tried to suggest a distinction between what God calls fornication and what the 'Church' agrees to be fornication. I am of the opinion that fornication is quite clear and the definition of the 'Church' is the same as that proffered in sacred scriptures (which represents God's words).

Yes, I made a distinction between what religion teaches about fornication and what I know to be fornication in the eyes of GOD. Maybe, I did not make myself as clear as possible. I will rephrase it like this. Fornication is any s.exual intimacy in thoughts, words, imagination,intent or physical action between a man an a woman that lack genuine love and are spiritually and psychically incompatible. I do not believe that any book contains the word of GOD. At best the sacred books will give you signpost which if followed will lead to the word of GOD.

I quite agree with you when you suggested that some factors MUST be present before a union will be considered as acceptable before God. 'By union I mean one who is properly married'. You mentioned "psychic compatibility", I am not sure what you mean by this but I am of the opinion that a union entered in deceit should not be considered to be a proper marriage and as such the union should be annulled (implying that there was no marriage in the first place).

Spiritual complimentary refers to whether the different "notes" that emanates from the spirit of intending couples can form a music (harmony) or noise (disharmony) Two people may be good according to the laws of GOD but they are not compatible because the qualities that each soul carry can not form a harmonious union. Instead of complementing each other, they will repel each other. The north pole of a magnet complements the south pole, hence the attraction but the same poles are incompatible, hence the repulsion. The same happen in qualities that emanates from the soul. Psychic compatibility refers the the harmony between what emanates from the various material and non-material bodies that the spirit covers itself with and this includes karmic entanglements dating to former times. One characteristics of a union where these conditions are fulfilled is the inner happiness that bubbles in such couples irrespective of their earthly conditions. Hopefully, in the future, I will give practical examples on these issues.

Your use of intimacy is also quite vague. If your usage of 'initmacy' has some sex.ual undertone then I do not agree that this is permitted for those who are unmarried irrespective of their love, spiritual and 'psychic' compatibility. If two unmarried individuals believe they are meant for each other, then they should get married rather than being involved in fornication.

You are welcome to disagree with me. If two "unmarried" people are actually meant for each other as I explained in my posts on this thread, then they are indeed genuinely married in the eyes of GOD. Whether or not this genuine marriage is given recognition by the church or state is inconsequential. In being meant for each other lies the marriage act. The religious or legal ceremonies that may or may not follow the marriage act as I explained neither validates nor annuls the marriage act. It is only in the eyes of men who only judge by externals that such a genuine marriage is deemed as no marriage. Like I said previously, there is nothing wrong in adhering to legal or religious requirements but theses ceremonies are not the marriage act itself. Stay blessed.

striktlymi: ^^^
Good morning Nwankwo,

I hope you are not trying to justify fornication?

Hi Striktlyml. Good morning to you too. No, I am not trying to justify fornication. All I am saying is that it is not the church or state or custom that defines fornication, rather it is the laws of GOD. My conviction is that the conditions for a genuine marriage according to the laws of GOD are genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility. If the souls seeking for the union have these qualities living with them, then their marriage is blessed by GOD and protected by GOD`s power. If the souls seeking for union do not have the qualities I mentioned above, then the marriage and the intimacy in such a union is immoral even if the marriage vows are taken in front of the Pope or the Chief Justice of the federation. Rightly understood, any intimacy without genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility is immoral and that holds true for both "married" and "unmarried" unions. Intimacy where the aforementioned conditions are met is moral and pure and that also hold true for couples in "married" and "unmarried" relationship. Stay blessed.

honey001: Let's say u are invited to a wedding, and u know fully well dat the bride is pregnant, will it be a sin to attend such marriage?

Hi honey001. All judgment based on appearances only, that is, what is physically visible will be wrong. Pregnancy or no pregnancy before customary, religious or legal wedding is an outward sign that is insufficient for a robust judgment that is according to the will of God. The reason for this is that marriage, contrary to general opinion has nothing to do with religious, cultural or legal ceremonies. A man and a woman are married in the eyes of GOD if genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility already exists between them. It is these innate qualities of genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility that pulled the couples together like the opposite poles of the magnet and it is the same qualities that ensures the permanence of the union from the very beginning. A marriage is thus initiated and consecrated by the laws of GOD if the aforementioned qualities or talents are already vibrating between the two souls. Whether or not the couples undertake a religious, customary or legal ceremony has nothing to do with the marriage itself. Religious, customary or legal ceremonies are simply requirements for the society, state or religious group to recognize the marriage but they do not constitute the marriage itself. As I briefly explained above, marriage is a an act instituted, consecrated and blessed by GOD when the prevailing conditions of genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility are fulfilled by the couples. Whether or not the society, culture or religion recognize this is immaterial. But of course there is nothing wrong in complying with earthly laws provided such laws do not run counter to the will of GOD

A couple who are genuinely married as I tried to explain above will live in a perfect spiritual harmony and love which sometimes may manifest in a physical consummation. A pregnancy that resulted when conditions of genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility are met is a blessing from GOD and the physical consummation that led to the pregnancy is pure. Whether or not a church, custom or state gave its approval is inconsequential. Equally, if the conditions of genuine marriage as I tried to explain above are not met, then the marriage act even when it is performed by the pope, a pastor or the chief Justice is immoral and all s.exua.l relationship in such a sham marriage is immoral. That one has a marriage certificate from a church, customary or high court does not make one truly married in the sight of GOD. If you understand what I said above, then many marriages which church and society approve are in reality immoral while some which church and society disapprove are in reality moral. Take a dispassionate look at all the marriages you have come across and I am confident that one can see the brazen immorality in many of them even when they were initiated with great cultural and religious ceremonies. Where there is no genuine love, all physical union are immoral. A "married couple" have no love for each other, they disagree on almost everything, they abuse each other emotional and physically and yet they still have physical union believing that the marriage certificate given by the state or church absolves them of the immorality of their intimate contacts.

Then imagine a crowd of these legally but immorally married couples condemning a girl in a genuine marriage as I explained above but happen to be pregnant before the earthly ceremonies of church or court wedding. The paradox is that the pregnant girl according to my explanation is without sin while those condemning and pointing fingers are the ones with a lot of immorality and have much to answer before GOD. Using a marriage certificate issued by the church or society to define when a s.exual relation is immoral or moral is wrong for the conditions for God sanctioned marriage are not written on the marriage certificates but in the qualities indelibly written in the two souls that are seeking for a union. Much of the divorce and immorality prevalent today is down to people thinking that in order to have the liberty of having s.ex, one just need to get "married" by the church or state. They ignore conditions for genuine marriage (genuine love, spiritual and psychic compatibility) and end up marrying the wrong person. The sham marriage is thus doomed from the start and the attendant result is divorce or a soulless marriage where happiness have disappeared. Genuine love and compatibility between couples in a marriage that is according to the laws of GOD manifest in supreme happiness. Like the poles of the magnet, the couples are inseparable no matter the earthly trials. The happiness that emanates from such a home is infectious that even strangers who are a little observant will notice it. Gods will for us is to be happy, an overflowing happiness that comes from deep within the soul and in obeying the laws of GOD that are indelibly written in his creations, we will find supreme happiness. Best Wishes.

plaetton:

Always a great pleasure. Thank you.

Insightful and very true. However, most of us understand the concept of forgiveness from a purely religious point of view, as it is touted and marketed by the popular religions of our day. Infact, it a great marketing tool to win new converts.
It goes somewhat like this:

" Are you a sinner, a robber, a murderer, an adulterer, a liar? No problems. You are ok. Come, god will forgive you of all your sins and inequities."

In this way, the concept of forgiveness becomes a free get-out-of -jail card that is supposed to absolve one of personal responsibility and penance. This idea of forgiveness, itself, is a negation of the concept of justice.
You can see that this twisted but very popular concept of forgiveness becomes a bigger problem for the soul, because, rather than serve as a means towards regeneration, this forgiveness lulls one into a false sense of security,apathy and indolence, thereby inhibiting the ultimate growth of the spirit.

That is why I find it contradictory and dangerous, not only to the social order, but to the spirit as well.

Hi plaetton. Thanks for your kind words. What is important and decisive for the spiritual evolution of each soul is how she or he have lived in sync or opposition to the will of GOD. What others believe even when they are in the majority should not concern one who is truly in tune with the will of GOD. GOD imbued each of us with freewill and we are absolutely free to use it which ever way we so choose. The choice is indeed free but one is bound to the consequences of his or her choice. You are free to sow corn but you are bound to harvest corn. No amount of prayer or supplication will magically change corn to mango. As it is in earthly things, so is it in the non-physical things including the spiritual. Often most people think that the laws of God are a set of rules or admonition. In reality, the laws of GOD are the intrinsic abilities inherent in formed and unformed radiations (emanations)of GOD. Because these abilities and talents are intrinsic in each specie of creation, they are inseparable from the specie concerned. It is for this reason that these abilities are immutable. Admonitions and guides by different prophets of GOD and his son, Jesus Christ were meant to awaken these abilities.True prophets of GOD are aware of these abilities and by their words as well as by the power granted to them by GOD, they provide nourishment for theses inherent talents, allowing them to germinate, grow and transform into abilities. These abilities know of nothing else except the will of GOD. Just like a diamond, these abilities only radiate light, love, justice and purity. But just like the luster and brilliant brightness of a diamond can be soiled by mud or filth, the luminosity and purity of the spirit can be soiled and blocked by sin. Just like a diamond can be cleansed of the filth that covers is, the the spirit that is man can be washed of the sins that darkens it as I have previously explained.

There is no forgiveness without justice and love. The will of GOD manifests in the irrevocable march of events. If one takes a deep look at events in his or her own life, that of his neighbors, and indeed the whole world, I am confident that he or she will have some glimpse of what forgiveness is. You cannot be a surgeon without going through the medical school, evaluated and certified. You cannot enter the kingdom of GOD without love, purity, justice, intuitive insight, etc being an intrinsic part of ones spirit. The process of Forgiveness as I have explained is a grace of GOD that permits these aforementioned abilities to blossom by giving the sinner the opportunity not only to repent from his evil ways but to learn the necessary lessons from them so that he will not again succumb to the same failing when opportunity for temptation presents itself. A gem cannot be polished without friction and forgiveness cannot be granted without cleansing of the garments of the spirit. As I said this process of cleansing is not a tea party and can be painful. As always stay blessed.

parisienne: M_Nwankwo. You are deep oh! God bless you for your contributions...do excuse me while I go and read them again.

Hi parisienne.Thank you for the prayer and kindwords. Stay blessed.

plaetton:

If the laws of creation are immutable, then the concept of forgiveness is just a human fantasy. It makes no sense in the grand scheme of the universe.
If we cannot petition gravity to spare us from falling, how is it possible to ask and expect our sins against god and his universe to be erased and forgiven?.
Since human life is dynamic, how many times can one expect to be forgiven of one's sins in course of one's life?

Hi Plaetton. I do not see why forgiveness cannot be reconciled with the immutable laws of creation. In my earlier post on this thread I clearly stated that sin, a disobedience to the laws of God, imprint itself on the various cloaks that envelops the spirit and that the washing or removal of these imprints is what forgiveness is. Petition in the sense of the laws of God simply means adjusting your entire being to be in sync with the laws, to flow with the will of God and not to oppose it. Sin came into existence as a result of opposition to the will of God and thus can be cleansed by living according to the will of God. Petition to God does not lay in endless confession of sins that is not inwardly felt deep with the spirit, but in genuine recognition of ones failing, followed by adjustment of ones life such that it swings in the will of GOD. Anyone who follows this path will receive the spiritual power to always live according to the will of GOD. When a man is in sync with the will of God, he will be bathed in the power of GOD, the experiencing of the power of GOD transforms the seeker to a new man, such a man is born again. We can dig our own graves by wrong or misapplication of the laws of God but we can also redeem ourselves by obedience to the laws of GOD. You can not sow yam and expect to reap banana but the laws of GOD have the possibility that you can harvest banana if you sow banana. Every stirring of the soul adds new threads to our tapestry of fate which then changes the overall color, sound and radiation of those threads. Imagine every sin to be a black thread and imagine every act that is in accordance with the will of God to be white thread. Imagine a man who is predominantly evil and thus his tapestry of fate is made of mostly black threads. Now this man for some reason is fed up with his evil ways and embarks on the road of reformation. Slowly but surely more white threads are now added such that in time the tapestry of fate becomes predominantly white. But there is even much more to the process. Because the remaining black threads do not receive anymore nourishment from him, they wither and fall off his tapestry of fate. Now, this mans tapestry of fate is now completely white. The adamantine laws of GOD prevents a magical conversion of black threads to white threads but it does allow the black threads to wither as I explained and the addition of white threads.

Yes, there can be divine intervention but this intervention is a fulfillment of the cosmic laws, not a negation of it as is often assumed. A man may have inwardly changed so much that a returning evil reciprocal action will no longer penetrate to him because of lack of homogeneity but is dissipated or mitigated by the pure non-earthly environment that surrounds him. In this case a bullet from an assassin that would have killed him may just glance off his hair or the assassin gun may be jammed. A car accident that would have seen a man get crushed by a trailer may end up in him just helping to drop a stranded passenger. The mitigation of a harmful heavy karma through a harmless activity as I illustrated above is called symbolic redemption. Several servants of GOD in non-physical spheres often guide the repented one to acts of symbolic redemption although the individual may think that the suggestions or thoughts came from himself. Now the same process also happens in good threads of fate that have ripened for us in the workshop of creation. Unbelievable spiritual guidance bring us to circumstances and events where these good fruits drop to our laps and because we cannot consciously survey the origin of the good seeds whose fruits dropped to our laps we call it providence. Grace, providence and forgiveness are merely the outworking of Divine Will. There is nothing arbitrary about them even though they may appear so to many a man because of their inability to survey the entire happening. As the Igbos say, "If a man who is not around when a corpse was buried is asked to exhume the corpse, he will start digging from the location of the knee"

As an aside, I have not forgotten your topic on Consciousness. Hopefully I will muster the urge to make an input. Stay blessed.

Deep Sight:

Well let me help you with a summary. If your Father tells you not to jump up, and that if you jump up you will fall down.

Let's say you disobey him and you jump up. That disobedience is sin.

Now haven jumped up, you confess your disobedience to him and ask for forgiveness.

He forgives you.

Will you still fall down or not?

Beautiful DeepSight. Thanks a million! Stay blessed.

musKeeto:
Hehee.. Lol.. You've never met m_nwankwo. He's one of the 'ever-present' sniper regulars we have here ..


@ oga m_nwankwo: happy new year Sir

Hi musKeeto. Happy new year to you too. How bodi? I am confident you are doing fine. Stay blessed.

Redmosquito: Nwankwo! Wat da hell! See as ur tory long! I have other things to read na! Oya summarize in two lines.

Hi Redmosquito. I am sorry I cannot summarize in two lines. Stay blessed.

uj_sizzle: Sinners who confess their sins and ask for forgiveness often talk about the scriptural passage that says "Old things have passed away and behold all things have become new" and most often than not translate this to having a clean slate n being punishment free.

Now there are some who say for every sin there's a punishment, whether u ask forgiveness or not. There's the case of David and Uriah in the book of Kings and the verse where God says he will avenge.

What's your view on this, does forgiveness of sins free one from every punishment?
Back up with scriptural citations if you can.

Sin can be "defined" as disobedience to the laws of God. It can also be "defined" as activities that runs counter to the will of God. Every sin whether small or big imprints itself on any of the cloaks that envelop our spirit. To wash away these imprints or to remove them so that it appears that they were never there in the first place is forgiveness. The only way to wash away these imprints or sins is reformation, that is, to live in the sense of the will of God. Without genuine repentance, reformation and the subsequent transformation, forgiveness of sins is impossible. God does not punish anyone, rather the adamantine laws of God return to each one the fruits of the seeds one has consciously or unconsciously sowed. If the the seeds sown are good seeds, men call it blessing or grace and if the they are bad seeds, the harvest is referred to as punishment. Forgiveness can be instantaneous or a process depending on several factors including the nature of the sin, whether others have be harmed in their physical or soul bodies because of the sin, the depth of inner change in one that has repented, intercession, etc. Genuine repentance sets in motion counter currents to the ones that emanates from the sin. The counter currents, a volition from the repented one because of its purity is strengthened by the power of God such that it has a cleaning effect on the sins or imprint. Like a detergent cleans a dirty cloth of dirt, this volition for genuine repentance strengthened by the power of God washes away the sins until the sins are completely removed or falls off. The process of this washing or cleaning of our soiled garments in many cases is not a tea party but involves some painful experiencing, experiences that will enable the spirit to learn the necessary lessons such that it will be able to resist sin in future should opportunity for sin present itself.

Therefore, contrary to common views, the consequences of our sins are not magically removed from us once we genuinely repent of them, rather the consequences are placed on our paths so that we confront them. If we trust in Gods omnipotence, Gods power will be with the repented one such that one will have all the necessary spiritual support that will enable him overcome the battle with his sins and emerge as a new creature. Genuine repentance is the road to forgiveness but it is not the end in itself. It is a first but indispensable step. A lazy student who suddenly realizes that he has been failing exams because he has not been studying will not suddenly become a good student just because he has the firm volition to be serious with his studies. If he wants to score top marks, he must read his books, and be subjected to evaluation during exams. This crude analogy of a student reflects faintly the path open to the repented one as he embarks on the road to forgiveness. It may be psychologically rewarding for people to believe that their sins are forgiven because they have confessed, but in reality their sins are still their if the confession is not followed by genuine repentance, reformation and transformation. Sin is like a cancerous growth on the various cloaks enveloping the spirit and it has to be removed or else the real man (spirit) will die with it.

The love of God is always ready to help any sinner who genuinely desires to be liberated from the shackles of sin. But believers must recognize that an intrinsic part of forgiveness of our sins is confrontation with the sins itself. Often this confrontation is not rosy but painful. But if our faith in Gods omnipotence is genuine and firm, we will emerge from the confrontation as new creature with our soul garments as white as snow and our path as a beautiful as the smile of a baby. Best Wishes

Hi Anony. Thanks for your beautiful and inspiring story. I wish you strength in your chosen path. I will like to make a brief comment on your points about atheists.

Now there is something that comes with atheism which is the sense of liberation from any moral obligations placed on you by your religion. For instance if your religion forbids drinking alcohol and you denounce it, suddenly there is no reason not to drink alcohol. The same goes for every moral obligation and all the things you previously wouldn't do because you were afraid of what God will do to you if you did. Since you are no longer "scared of God" anymore, you find yourself defining what is right and wrong for yourself. For instance you might begin to ask questions like "what is really wrong with lying anyway?" or "what is really wrong with adultery?" and so on and so forth. Eventually, you find out that you are having to justify your actions based on you and yourself alone.

My view on your above quote is that it can apply to some (probably many) but not to all atheists. There are some atheists that have genuinely not found God. For this group of atheists, their is not yet anything in their experience to confirm to them that GOD is. As they seek and search, they may one day undergo a multitude of personal experiences that will bring them the conviction that GOD is. The point I am trying to convey is that their are people who genuinely hold to atheism not because of "liberation from any moral obligations" but because they have not yet found any "reason" to believe in GOD. I think that what is important as men seek G0D or meaning for their existence is that they remain honest. If one is honest and humble, one will at some point find the TRUTH. Stay blessed.

This is a very sad story. Below is what I wrote on this thread in 2008. The traumatic experience that the OP is undergoing could have easily been avoided. This thread highlights all that is wrong with group consciousnesses that is quite common among many believers in all religions and movements without exception. The group consciousnesses makes it impossible for believers to have an independent thought. It is also not easy to tear asunder the bonds of group consciousnesses since those enveloped in it are already so weak to independently ask from help from God. Even when help is sent from God either directly or via mediators, this cancerous swamp of group consciousnesses repels and in most cases neutralizes the help sent. Only deep shocks (physical, psychical or spiritual) can tear asunder this thick veils of group consciousness, freeing the spirit to once again exercise its God given free will. Then the spirit can then pray from the depth of his or her soul to God alone and such a soul will receive the necessary help.

All alternative healing methods including faith healing must be followed up or confirmed by independent competent medical investigation. Preferably, more than one independent investigation as that will reduce the likelihood of misdiagnosis due to human error. Any faith healer who do not demand investigation of his claims by competent independent scientific authority is a charlatan. He has no ability and if he believes that he has one, then he is deluded. On the other hand if he knows that he has no ability but pretends that he has one and by hypnotism, suggestion or autosuggestion make his followers to think that he has an ability, then he is a criminal or fraudster. Sadly the only consequence to people who had hope not in God but in the imagined abilities of there fellow men is bitter disappointment and suffering. Prophecies from so called "men of God" will prove to be false and their promises of miracles and faith healing will come to nothing. Modern medicine is also a gift of God, just like genuine spiritual healing is also a gift of God. It is the sacred duty of all believers to avail themselves of the opportunities and advances in modern medicine. Those who want God to cure them of bacterial infection when God has already made antibiotics available in his creation lack understanding of how the will of God manifests in creation. To prevent further harm the OP and his family should follow the standard medical procedure for diagnosis/treatment and monitoring of HIV infected patients. HIV and AIDS have no medical cure at the moment but drugs are available that will allow infected individuals to live a healthy life. I wish the OP and her family strength. Best Wishes.

m_nwankwo: @Posters

Miracles that pertain to the physical body can very easily be verified by scientific method. Medical/biomedical science has enough tools to investigate these matters. Whenever claims of healing are made, the claimant should allow independent scientific investigation of his claims. Where such investigations are prevented, then the faith healer is either a charlatan or believes in imagined abilities. If one believes that God uses him or her to effect a healing miracle, then he or she should provide the evidence. An evidence that has been subjected  through the rigor of independent scientific examination.  Testimonies, newspaper reports, television displays and even doctors or lab reports do not constitute scientific evidence. Where the healer is  incapable of producing such, then it is clear that he has no gift of healing. Probably, It is only in  faith healing that a practitioner remains viable inspite of repeated failures. A surgeon with many reported cases of death during operation will be de-listed for lack of ability and even prosecuted. A scientist whose publications are contradicted is forced to retract those publications  and his or her reputation is permanently damaged, funding will cease and his career will end in disgrace. It is high time that faith healers are required by law of each land to open their claims to scientific investigation. That will weed out the charlatans from the extremely few who God has bestowed with the ability to mediate his power to cure sickness and diseases. You can have the faith to move mountains but if God did not give you the gift of healing, you cannot  cure any illness in the name of God. One of the characteristics of people without genuine ability (in all professions/vocations) is to give excuse instead of evidence.

jayriginal: Thanks M_Nwankwo

I think I understand what you mean when you say "that particular soul", but just for the avoidance of doubt what I meant was your general take of the book.

The idea of higher and lower planes, the beings that inhabit them which which ascend or descend into planes depending on their conduct whilst in a particular plane, the mirror image of cities that existed during ones earthly years, the notion that ones thoughts draw like minded "spirits".

Do you hold these things to be true ?


EDIT:
I just read your response again and it clarifies some of what I just asked.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you too. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,
You can always address me directly; I’m not upset with you, not even the smallest iota of hatred exists in my heart for you. I appreciate you examining my words and pointing out where you disagree rather than accepting them as gospel truth or keeping quiet for the sake cordiality.
I have nothing but love in my heart for you. I will gladly answer your questions; feel free to reject them. I’m sure one day, perhaps in the non-physical planes, we will laugh over this issue. I don’t just believe in my perception over this issue, I am convinced. This is an issue I have struggled with for years, till out of the love of God realization came to me. I cannot share my personal experiences on this forum, but I can say that the visit of Parsifal in the Grail castle in ethereal plane, where Amfortas failed, was very familiar with me. I have a personal relationship to this particular event. You can easily find out if I’m lying, I’m sure you will find out if I'm lying if you investigate this claim of mine.

Hi Justcool. Thanks for taking your time to address the questions I raised. It is a healthy thing to always speak according to ones intuition. My apologies for misreading some of the points that you have raised. I have read your new explanations and I am better informed of your position. However your assertion that the wrong principle of Lucifer manifested in the spiritual and primordial planes is not in accord with my own experiences of these events (some of it directly and others shown to me by guides). I also do not believe that the attack that Lucifer directed to Elizabeth/infant Parsifal happened in the Primordial Spiritual. I am not inwardly moved to offer detailed explanations. I know you are honest about what you are saying. If it is the Truth, nothing will stop it from being confirmed by the will of God. If it is not the Truth,it will fall away and come to nothing. The same also applies to my own stand on this issue. As always, stay blessed.

jayriginal: Just Cool and M Nwankwo,
have you read "A Wanderer In The Spirit Lands" and if you have, whats your take on it ?

Hi jayriginal. I read the book some years ago. My take is that it is an accurate description of the experiences in the beyond (astral and ethereal planes) for that particular soul. Thus the book in my sensing is an accurate transmitted writing. But remember that it is just for that particular soul. Other souls with different propensities and traits will have different experience. There are several lectures in the Grail Message on the experiences of the soul in the beyond and the the laws that determine what experience each departed soul will be subjected to. If you intuitively examine those lectures, you will understand the book better since the Grail Message will explain the principle behind the experiences described in that book. But one does not need to die before one can consciously experience these planes of existence. If you need it for your spiritual development, then your astral and ethereal faculties of perception can open while still in a physical body and you can survey these planes yourself. Stay blessed.

Hi again. I can explain the peripheral issues that my friend Justcool keep emphasizing but I inwardly do not feel the urge to do so. Maybe, someday I will do that. For the spiritual benefit of all that are reading this thread, I humbly request Justcool to provide specific evidence or citation from the Grail Message for the following assertions that he has made:

(a) Lucifer wrong volition or principle happened in the primordial spiritual plane

(b) That Lucifer's struggle/attack on Elizabeth/infant Parsifal happened in the primordial spiritual plane

(c) That the Lucifer's principle of "letting oneself go" and temptation happened when Lucifer's volition was immature in the Primordial spiritual

Stay blessed.

My view is that the Truth is always simple and clear. Whether or not creatures can perceive it depends entirely on each creature. Perhaps for the benefit of seekers who want to consider the issues at stake independently and not through the lens of m_nwankwo, the following passages from the Grail Message may be of help.

"Guilt and atonement are only possible in the World! This is due to the faultiness of the subsequent development. Guilt of any kind is utterly impossible in the Realm of the Spirit!" (From Grail Message, Vol. II Lecture 68)


"Lucifer himself stands outside material Creation and will therefore not be drawn into the disintegration which is the fate of the victims of his principle, because Lucifer is eternal. His origin lies in a part of the Sphere of Divine Substantiality. The dissension started after the creation of all matter had begun. Sent out to support Spiritual Substantiality and further its development in the World of Matter, he failed to carry out his mission in accordance with the Creative Will of God the Father but, through a volition which came to him while working in matter, he chose ways other than those ordained by this Creative Will." (From Grail Message Vol. II Lecture 35)

[b]"As in wandering downwards Parsifal arrived at the boundary where the World of Matter began, i.e., the area of the human spirits developing from spirit-germs, he reached that plane in which the effects of the dark currents that had also already touched Amfortas first became manifest.

At this boundary there is the Castle in which Amfortas was priest-king. It is the lowest image of the actual Grail Castle, furthest away from it and most different from it in nature. Also therefore the nearest one to the earth, although in terms of human thinking at such a great distance as can hardly be grasped! In this Castle there are indeed the purest of the developed human spirits as guardians of the vessel and as knights.

Upon entering this plane it was necessary for Parsifal to become veiled with a cloak of the same kind, even though of the very fine material substance such as existed there, which was like a bandage that temporarily blots out all memories of higher regions.

Coming from the Light He now in pure innocence faced the evil that was completely unknown to Him, and He could only take notice of it through suffering under it. He thereby had to learn laboriously what human spirits are capable of in this respect.

Thus He did indeed obtain a thorough knowledge of it, but since it was completely alien to His nature He could never understand such things.

Thus it was here that the currents from the Darkness, which had naturally taken on form, rushed for the first time upon the wandering stranger, who in the struggles connected therewith gained strength and awoke to the recognition of Himself./p>

It is of this path, difficult and full of suffering, that mankind on earth received knowledge, because it took place in the World of Matter, although only at its highest boundary." (From Grail Message Vol. III, Lecture 58)
[/b]

Stay blessed.

Deep Sight:

Are you sure about the bold with reference to the red bold?

Are you saying that there is no wrong whatsoever in spiritual?

If that is the case, it would be very hard to see how wrong arose in the worlds of matter, considering that these worlds are a reflection of the spiritual?

Hi Deepsight. Thanks for your reasoned comments. Yes I am certain that wrong or evil volition cannot arise in luminous kingdoms of God (the spiritual and primordial spiritual). Perhaps, a definition of wrong and evil may make the concepts clearer. Wrong can be defined as an "unconscious" deviation from the laws of God. Evil can be defined as a willful and conscious deviation from the laws of God. Now the possibility of wrong or evil arising depends on the origin of the being or creature as well as how close or far such a being is to the "proximity" of God. The kingdoms of God, ie, the spiritual and the primordial spiritual are closer to the "proximity" of God than the material creations and thus subject to the enormous pressure of Gods power. This enormous pressure of Gods power does not permit the possibility of any conscious or unconscious deviation from the laws of God, thus no possibility of wrong or evil. It is because of this that failure is impossible in the spiritual or primordial spiritual kingdoms of God. Where their is no possibility for failure, there is also no possibility for wrong or evil. Development is not the same thing as wrong. There is development in all spheres of creation but development is simply a step by step progress in the continuum of the laws of God. Development in higher realms do not deviate even by a hairs breath from the laws of God. There is no standstill in creation and thus development continues ad infinitum. If you have a an infinite flight of steps in continuum, progress from step 1, 2, 1000, 10000, etc is development and should not be considered as wrong or evil. If the wanderer accidentally steps out of these eternal flight of steps, then that is wrong, but if he consciously and willfully steps out of the steps, then that is evil in this context.

Yes the world of matter can in a sense be taken as the coarsest reflection of the spiritual. But a reflection is not a copy. The world of matter is not subject to the enormous pressure of Gods power because it oscillates as cosmic distances far from the "proximity" of God. Wrong and evil are only possible in the world of matter because of the slackened pressure of the power of God. This slacking allows the possibility of wrong union of radiations which may progress to evil. Creatures who have the capacity of free will can then exploit this slackened pressure of Gods power to bring about wrong union of radiations which may progress to evil. Evil was not created by God for the world of matter as God made it has not one iota of evil or wrong deeds. However creatures that have free will can form wrong unions because of the slackened pressure of Gods power. Eliminating evil in material creations simply involves an act of Gods will which brings material creations into an increased pressure of Gods power, a pressure which does not just eliminate evil volition but eliminates the possibility of the source of evil volition, ie, wrong union of radiations. The battle between Light and Darkness is only in the world of matter for reasons that I have stated above. Wen a spirit is permitted some experiences of the spiritual realm even while wandering in lower spheres, the enormous pressure of Gods power will convince him that no other thought or volition can arise. There are no human concepts to describe this. All that one can say is that in that moment, the spirit flows with this enormous pressure and although his free will is still there, it is like the only will he has is to flow with the flow of Gods power.

Thanks again. Is his condition reversible in the event that he changes his volition?

I do not know. This question have only crossed my spirit once and when I put the question to my spiritual guide, I received a rebuke. Stay blessed.