₦airaland Forum

Horus:
And how does this give the right to Nigeria to invade Ivory Coast just because the result of a presidential election do not suit the west?. Is Nigeria a role model when it come to presidential election? . Just wait for the next Nigerian Presidential "419" Election. Again, clean your own house first before shouting that other people's houses are dirty.

Its called ECOMOG not Nigeria you nitwitt. The agreement is reached by the governing bodies and all countries within the organization you illiterate. Stop propagating propaganda.
The only reason Nigeria is at the forefront is because we have the largest standing army in West africa because of population size and better logistical capacity.

its people like you who make inflammatory remarks to stare emotional responses without using your ntellect. Put things in their proper context using your cerebral cortex for once.

Horus:
Of course!!, we all know that it was an arranged marriage, the current white wife of Ouattara (Dominique) is a french jew who managed Houphouet properties in Abidjan, Paris , NY and switzerland. The wedding was directed by the mayor Nicolas Sarkozy (current President of france), in Paris. Coincidence?,No!!. Note that when Houphouet was dying for one year 1992-1993, Ouattara empty the coffers of the state. what makes him a multi-billionaire. He himself has declared his assets up to US$500,000,000 , all in Europe and American banks.

Conspiracy theories is a mental disorder. An unfortunate human trait. We love to indulge in it don't we.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7468377#msg7468377 date=1294249181]Woo, woooo. . . .back up! Now you are arguing in dis-favor of free-market. Freedom of movement and freedom of will does not always par with free-market, in fact they are contradictory in practice.

A pack of cigarette sells for $5 in Georgia. The same brand and label sells for $10 in New York. Do you travel to Georgia everytime you need to buy a pack? Fact for consideration: it is illegal and punishable by law to conduct inter-state trading of tobacco products. It is considered bootlegging.[/quote]It puts pressure on the forces that wield the powers of a free market sytem. There really isn't an invisible hand that is directing and guiding the free market structure excluding external government regulation. The principles and practices is what is in conflict here. I believe in the principles based on the progress that I have seen the system make. Over time the practice has always been hijacked many a time.

You do realize the reason the ideology of capitalism took hold in the Americas originates from its founding principles vest the power of the factors of production on individuals as opposed to the old world grip on these same factors devlishly controlled by burgeouzi classes, lords the church and monarchs.

Because men are men everywhere and hold the same vices and virtues in terms of the corruption of power, Monopolies are born simply as a subsitute for these old world categories however the system allows for continious re-examination so we don't necessarily have to move all the way fromm Europe to the Americas to change ideologies.
[quote][/quote]

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7468182#msg7468182 date=1294247727]FACEBOOK IS WORTH $50B. . . . . says Goldman Sachs.

I wanted to bring this topic up but in the heat of our debate forgot.  I can't wait to hear the proponents of Keynesian stimulus solution give us input on this one. 

Monopoly markets and facebook valuation, let's talk.  Anyone with thoughts?[/quote]Its all about creating bubbles and timing the market. Goldman Sachs has been hedging bets for a longtime. They've made quite a number of people rich on this type of speculation therefore their credibility is substantial. They are able to speculate the market and sell that expertise to u because most small and mid sized investors are clueless.

Most people are tied to emotional subject matters than more complext cerebral ones. Its less taxing and often more instantaniously gratiutous. To bolster my point just take a look at how many thread hits and discussions center round the ROMANCE and RELIGIOUS forum on this board. Start a topic on the cosmic misteries of the universe and see how many people gravitate to respond. However tell them you have found a cheaper way to vacation on the moon and get some free time from work and they are sold.

Goldmach is hedging on a long term valuation in terms of Facebooks potential. it is for the buyer to beware in this instance. The dot.com era is a template to examine how you wanna proceed.

By Sachs funding Facebook, the government doesn't need to intervene in terms of creating demand. Although it can be said that they have indirectly done so by holding up Goldman who are not cable of taking the risk and investing in FB

Ps forgive my grammar. i often think faster than I can type. Its like digital stuttering

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7466737#msg7466737 date=1294236904]It's reason I enjoy conversing with you. . . you stretch my imaginations.  I know I have said it before but it's worth repeating that you are brilliant and savvy![/quote]I wouldn't go as far as brilliant. Savvy Yes.

I am simply more aware of my surroundings
 
[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7466737#msg7466737 date=1294236904]In everything you said here the keyword is in highlight.  - did I spell highlight right; I lose it sometimes!  

Anyway, yes I'm glad you used that word "levels", it is key!  That is so because the tiers of utilitarian taste vary and the range exist only within the confines of availability.  Going back to my $10 in hand - if what I want is not available in the market then I am persuaded to choose a close substitute with the same or similar utility value.  Correct?  . . .or I can elect to keep my $10.  In view of capitalism, is keeping my $10 a choice?  
The first determinant of value is "effect". . . in other words, the impulse.  You can put monetary value on impulse.  Next tier is "choice". . . .it's not the other way around as you have stated[/quote]The point is in changing an intrinsic and extrinsic value system in terms of the $10. We know an impulse to buy or satisfy a certain want is based on a certain value system engineered through time and  money is simply a representation of the storage of a specific definition of value. Both are ideals and not necessarily realities.(this of course can be argued)

In the context of capitalist markets the above of course hinges outside the realm of a capitalist framework, never the less remaingin a choice. However within capitalist contexts the solution would be to allow for the creation of alternatives by creating tenvironments of course through interventionist measures outside of the invisible hand of the market structure to oppose the maintanence of monopolistic competitions which is currently what most US and European markets are in conflict about.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7466737#msg7466737 date=1294236904]The other day, some analyst came on air and forecasted that gas price will peak at about $5 in summer.  Pure speculation to influence stock and also a propaganda to sheperd consumer response.  How many people know that American policy require a backup longer than 12months of oil reserve?  Very few indeed.  The gas we are buying at the pump now was produced over a year ago.  The gas we will buy in summer of 2011 was produced at the market rates of 2010 or longer. . . . .and the market price this year should actually drop lower than last year because demand has shrunk due to reduction in number of commuters.  The only explanation for a $5 gas in summer will be if a war or other territorial disturbances is also planned for around that time to make production and shipment difficult, but then that should go in the storage depot and only affect prices in 2012 and beyond.  But we consumers have been silly in past and so we are expected to continue in our gullibility and complacent response to commodity price hikes.[/quote]A manipulation of value is an equation of attaining the highest level of profits possible.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7466737#msg7466737 date=1294236904]What alternative?  Please enlighten me.  Soothing therapy and bonding is a survival issue for babies.  As for oil, yes there is alternative. . . . .in indigenous products such as processed palm oil, coconut oil, groundnut oil, olive oil, aloe oil. . . . but how many of us buy our indigenous products?  We prefer foreign labels. . . and in the world of baby oils, Johnson & Johnson is a household name , like Cocacola!  

We should talk about monopoly. . . .in economic and political terms.[/quote]Alternative: you change consumption patterns through the expansion of information. You can move to a part of the US who's climate is conducive for growing olive plants and learn the process of extracting oil for your baby's use. A subsistence amount is all that is required. Is this a realistic alternative cetris paribus?

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7466737#msg7466737 date=1294236904]He will have to be a hermit at that point.  Society has evolved to a point in which leaving outside the confines of a capitalist market has punitive consequences.[/quote]Depends on the society being analyzed. In terms of the Western world yes there will exist punitive consequences in so far again as you believe there is literally no other form fo survival outside this system. Look at it from a broader perspective in terms of Global communities. Freedom of movement allows the possibility for you to choose to move to a vicinity where you are outside of such economic confines or at least not subject to all its trapings. this may be percieved to be a radical solution being offered.

Again within the context of capitalist systems which is based on its principles of an individual being given the possibilites to control the factors of production it aint impossible to become a hermit i.e control most of your factors of your production holding that your variety of taste for other goods you cannot produce is curbed and attracting followers or like minded people into your group with the confines of capitalism again.

Once this lifestyle is seen as sustainable the current system is not necessarily reset but is forced to innovate altering its previous framework nd the sytem of course slowly corrects itself in the unfair control of monopolistic tendency inherent in the system. the problem stems for the struggle to balance out interventionist hands vs invisible hand of the market( invisible is simple a synonym for some is always pulling the strings) and its consequence on the top holders of economic powers and therefore choice with the interventionist forces usually by the state is stifling the middle market activists actually creating these alternatives fore mentioned

Horus:
Yes he did the best of his ability to work on other sectors and he did it well even he have to spend more in security to protect the civilian population from the rebels.

Right by allowing his cabinet access to embezzle money and givie foreign entities the licence to dump toxic refuse in the the ivory coast.

Horus:
Which article of the UN or international law say that you have to invade militarly a country if there is a problem in the Presidential election of this country?

There is no article on UN INVASION of any soverign country as you word it. There are articles that allow for military interventions and neutral peace keeping efforts. You need to ask yourself when the UN decided to Invade Ivory coast.

You can read can't you go to the Ecowas website and educate yourself on Articles related to ECOMOG and their functions. Ivory coast signed up for the treaty. They could have refused and stayed out of ECOWAS and run their own affairs.

Horus:
It is also because of his marriage to a white French business woman (Dominique) that he is considered by Ivorians as a representative of French and Western interests.

Right thats very intelligent of them. isn't it

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7462144#msg7462144 date=1294172272]You are pushing theoretical ideals here.[/quote]I tend to try to think outside the box.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7462144#msg7462144 date=1294172272]Let me try and present it to you in a new way.

Cause and effect tie in directly with those basic functions of life you stated. The passion to survive and live is innate and is the designed order of creation. Cause and effect is the result of living in harmony with, or in disharmony with, that order and is carried out by the exercise of the willpower. There is gain and loss associated with it. The losses bring about opportunities for redemption and improvements - growth for the soul.[/quote]I agree with everthing thus written above except for the statement on "order of creation" and your assumption on the concepts of redemption and improvement being tied to "growth for the soul" . None the less I understand your thought process and will not interject what I beliee are the origisns of the need to survive and indulge you in your stated concept

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7462144#msg7462144 date=1294172272]Now, if we step away from that order of creation and talk about "cosmic chaos", the painful results of subsisting in a disorganized and disorderly society arranged around temporal expectations, human interactions are then reduced to considerations of prejudicial cost/benefit outcomes. It is no longer a guarantee of freedom to exercise will but rather a response within the individual to conform to the norms and expectations of the community, whether one's soul finds satisfaction or not is secondary. This vulnerability of choosing is what consumer marketing exploits.

It is unfair to say that the baby can do without Johnson & Johnson, knowing that baby oil is an essential for the skin's nurture. Through her action of rubbing oil on the baby the pair of mother and child derive a satisfying human relations - that of bonding and massage therapy. Therefore not using oil is not an option, it is a necessity. . . .a fundamental. However, there is choice in the brand of oil she buys for her child; but where is the choice when 8 out of 10 baby oils are Johnson & Johnson brands labeled under different packaging and marketing tricks?[/quote]Staying within the confines of the discussions on economic systems i.e.( capitalism) and its relationship to Human's derivation of meaning of existence, Human interactions have always been predicated by levels of cost/benefit outcomes. Don't see how they cannot be. You will always give up something to get something else other wise the "interaction" is impossible. "Soul satisfaction" however one wants to define that whether in terms of pshychological contentment, spiritual harmony and emotional exhiliration is secondary to the process. 

The baby can do without the product. This is outside the realm of fundamental necessites in relation to survival in my view as long as there is an alternative which there often is.

Interaction of product-to-mother and Mother-to-baby, in terms of the illusion of choice is manipulated as so say but so is "the cause and effect" aspect .

Again you can choose not to participate witin the confines of this market system eliminating the chain of cause and effects as long as there are alternatives within your reach.

People say its impossible for everyone to stop using gas to fuel their cars. If they do so they wouldn't be able to function, buy food,go see their relatives, loose that human interaction that defines the meaning of life and is necessary for survival. is that really true?


The khoisan bush family living in the kalahari don't use any of these services or goods not to talk of  johnson and johnson's baby oil products on their baby's hair, probably never will. Have they diminished the meaning of life, Are they extinct?

The buyer is as complacent as the seller because there is a consensus. He can willingly exit the market if he chooses to and find meaning outside its confines

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7461106#msg7461106 date=1294161998]Taking from your immediate response above and the several others before it in which you amplified the importance of choice as the leading impulse for commodity consumption, I get a clarification that you are describing discretionary action. . . . and not necessarily the impulse of fundamental human needs for goods and commodities.[/quote]It emcompasses that subject matter but goes much deeper into explaining and understanding internal and external struggles human beings face in the pursuit of the satisfaction of percieved needs and desires necessary to survive. The ability to comprehend, control and alter outcomes within a system believed to to mechanized by a chain of cause and effects.
let me elaborate. The fundamental needs of humans stem from three basic necessities to SURVIVE. The physical needs of Food, health and shelter from the natural elements. Reset every system back to zero and these three will remain constant irregardless. Other systems are premised and built around attainment of these fundamental needs. Security, social cohesion, sustainability. Human wants are based on other less consequential needs never the less they exist. From the need for attachment, to interact, need for sex, for emotional connections and so on.

This therefore necessitates the building of systems be they political, social, educational or ECONOMICAL to govern these desires not premised on survival. Once the individual is aware of his elementary needs everything else becomes a CHOICE of consensus in so far as these systems are working for them.
[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7461106#msg7461106 date=1294161998]By discretionary action I mean "discretionary spending".  I have $10 in my hand and I am going to spend it but I am faced with the choice of buying cigarette or buying beer or food or even weed.  Am I correct, is this what you mean by choice?[/quote]No. Again the choice comes from the ability to comprehend the successes and flaws within the system, internalize and alter outcomes

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7461106#msg7461106 date=1294161998]In case there was mis-understanding in the use of these terms let me illustrate for you what I mean by "cause and effect" and give you the same advantage for clarification.

I mentioned the notion of working and studying hard for successful outcomes.  Well, this is what can be called "latent success".  On its own merit it is a wise and enlightened way of grooming an individual for successful future.  I say this because in this notion it is assumed upfront that one is blocked by failure and only by striving hard and with fortitude can that blockage be removed.  Sustainable success comes out of failure.  There is no multi-generational success that ever took its root from a success. . . . .never!  The trials of life paves way for process improvement and tenacity of spirit.  People who work hard at success keep toiling believing that the day is near.[/quote]The assumptions are observed/written parameters built within and around a defined system used as drivers in formulating and re formulating structures within that system. Parameters change. As you state above, It is no longer necessarily true that one must work HARD as opposed to working smart in achievement of material success in particular. Parameters change no longer governed by prescribed manmade laws.

It must be noted that there are apparent flaws in every possible man made system stemming from other additional variables influencing projected outcomes. It doesn't mean the system doesn't or hasn't produced its intended outcomes. What it implies is that choice again requires a requirement of absolute awareness in both internal( the struggle of defining what it means to live, be happy and success) and externally ( what you described as discretionary spending based mostly on external factors)

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7461106#msg7461106 date=1294161998]There is another type of success and we can call this the "potent success".  This is what the American Dream is.  It is a notion that success is right in your hand and you can only fail if you let it slip through your fingers.  People who steadfastly believe in this dream have a sense of entitlement and when they fail to accomplish they resort to depression, suicide, isolation. . . . a total loss of faith in human cause.[/quote]The causes and potential effects you described are ultimately based on "notions". Ideas imposed on the psyche often not fully comprehended or articulated. My definition of choice therefore becomes a metaphor for "awarness" in its deepest connotation. Once one achieves this zen like state( speaking in philosophical terms) he is able to make a decision whether to accept and therefore work within the confines of this system or likewise reject its tenants and choose to "unplug" from this system. you are ultimately the master of your own soul.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7461106#msg7461106 date=1294161998]Again, we have to determine if in the pursuit of capitalism we are willing to gain material success at the cost of human souls or whether we ought to introduce balances that keep the dynamics of capitalism at its optimum and equally guarantee a satisfactory quality of life for mankind. 

What will it be, "equality of opportunity" or "equality of results"?[/quote]These are the dynamics inherent in this particular system and others can be argued in other possible systems as well in the battle between assuring individual intellectual freedoms, pursuit of material things and a balancing of societal inequalities. Therefore my answer would be its a balancing act between equality of opportunityand equality of results.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455752#msg7455752 date=1294092297]This curve pattern you described is humans.  This is the cause and effect that you incorrectly diagnosed as choices.  Whether we like it or not, it will rain in the village.  It's a blessing for the farms but it's also a trial when its current washes away the mud homes.  This is a opportunity. . . .nature taxes mankind and brings out the best in him.  Through the loss he learns to make reinforcements so his home is not simply washed away.  Nature is a "causative" benefit for man's "effective" growth and evolution.[/quote]Is the natural process concepton out of the concept of "cause and effect" or as a result of choice? This is forever debatable in philisophical terms

However, When speaking about the outcomes and processes of man made systems in terms of capitalism and the likes, your above analogy does not apply. As mentioned before Choice preceds cause and effect in such instances. It must in order for that particular system to function. A level of consensus and acceptance is required. Capitalism does not exist whether we like it or not. It exists as a requirement.


[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455752#msg7455752 date=1294092297]The interconflicting variables you correctly alluded to is the result of inner battles within self and as well with the environment that prompts ego to assert the will for self-preservation. 

However, I am not sure any self-preserving person is at the same time ready to sacrifice self so the interests of his/her neighbour can be preserved.  Nonetheless, the argument can be made, satisfactorily, that self-preservation is possible through altruistic outreach to others.  The society has a reason to learn to yield to the needs of others but again, the propaganda of commercial consumption dilutes and diverts us away from philosophical thoughts. . . and keep us engage in capitalism.[/quote]You are devling into philosophical matters that can be interpreted differently for different individuals.  The indvidual is not necessarily diverted from philosophical thought processes as a result of capitalist engagment if he or she conciously or sub conciously accepts the system for all its workings and it is wrong to assume that every single individual is not cognitively aware of the processess and the systems. One can be exposed to and offered many alternative realities and still choose to accept the present one he finds himself. The philisophical debate can begin with the reasons why this is so but the answers are never uniform.

Horus:
Race inequalities? what is that? so you believe that race inequalities exist? not me; we are all equal.
Now if you believe that a statment is irrelevant, so what? that change nothing to the fact that Goodluck Jonathan is a "house Negro" eager to please his white master. Take it the way you want but the fact dont care about what you think.

Somebody who believes in equality and uses the word "negro". Shows how smart you are.

Horus:
In 10 year in power there was many obstacle for him to work properly. Everybody in Cote d'Ivoire know that in 2002 Alassane Ouattara after his failed coup d'Etat made the following statment: I will make this country Ungovernable. And this is exactly what he did. It was not easy for Gbagbo to work in 10 years when the rebels own 60% of the country and the natural ressouces. The government didnt have the power to collect taxes coming from the north under rebels control. You have to agree that this was not easy for Gbagbo under such conditions to run the country. He control only 40% of the country, even today.

what did he do for th 40% of the country he controlled. You don't necessary need natural resources to build a country. Oh wait i guess FRance was blokcing all FDI into the country cause they want him to fail in his government right. What about other sectors he could have worked at Education, Agriculture,Manufacturing. What?

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455118#msg7455118 date=1294084460]The first highlight is a summary of everything else that capitalism is built upon - "BALANCE OF POWER" between the elements of production and wealth. You cannot address the issue without touching upon the philosophies of life - "the mores"; laws of personal accountability and the ethics of personal responsibility.[/quote]Which is why capitalism is the only system in my opinion that is compatible with true or work in progress democracies progressive societies adopt. The continious ability to engage in civil discourse and shift balances in both political and economical powers through representation, in an effort to redistribute wealth is part of the balancing act required. Business cycle upswings and downturns are an advent of the system continious trying to correct itself. The extreme views to the left and the right leave us with extreme outcomes. You and I know no country practices absolute Capitalism which is why there are several defintions for it.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455118#msg7455118 date=1294084460]Nature is balanced but in order to bend nature to our needs for daily subsistence and production of needs and necessities we are confronted with the issue of sacrifice. There is demanding need for a particular commodity and its availability is not enough to go round. In view of that scarcity, how should the human need be attended to so that no one starves or dies? A fundamental convergence point for economics and philosophies.

Selfishness vs Sacrifice![/quote]I believe nature is in a continious state of balancing itself out. In order words nature is imperfectly balanced and must continiously go through a series of imbalanced flux of unbalanced equations because of the existence of interconflicting variables. We therefore do not necessary bend a perfect natural surrounding in pursuit of our survival but are locked in the same imbalancing nature of satisfying both our needs but our intrinsic WANTS and desires. We are unfortunately the only species on record with an overwhelming appetite to satisfy these additional desires good or evil as they may be analyzed. Economics deals with the satisfaction of Human wants in conflict with scarcity of available resources in satisfying those wants at a given point in time. Selfishness as you mention therefore alludes to a desire for the levels of want and sacrifice correlated to a desire for the need to survive and sustain oneself or one's group. The two can be separated. There in lies the power of choice. The baby you spoke of earlier does not necessarily need johnson and johnsons's baby products s a prerequisite to survival. he or she can do well witout it as they ahve done in the past only to the point when the want is manipulated and turned into a required need.

Do I need to have something or do I want to have it.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455118#msg7455118 date=1294084460]In the second highlight, because competition for scare resources is often attached to ego, the outcome is that elimination of your rival becomes the cheapest means of controlling access. Exclusivity of resource and means! Therefore, the society ought to have a "check and balance" standard for overseeing the interests of those locked outside that gate, otherwise the imbalance of power in an exclusive hand become too intoxicating and dangerous for the overall good. Those in whose hands rest the future of the society must not be allowed to self-regulate. This is where the option for redistribution of resources is important. It's a threatening strike attempting to dilute their exclusivity. Also, we really must then consider which should lead. . . . "Equality of Opportunity" or "Equality of Results".[/quote]There is in no dispute regarding the above point only as far as teh acceptance the capitalism has been proven in principle and practive to have been effective in its required outcomes holding fast to the resolve that it cannot self regulate itself as a check and balance requirement. If government  or the instruments are tasked with that regularoty responsiblitiy is up for debate as far as i am concerned.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455118#msg7455118 date=1294084460]I'm shocked that someone intelligent as you have demonstrated will make that statement. You cannot accurately psychoanalyze anyone's convinction in life from a few paragraphs of writing online.

What you call choice is arbitrary. . . . whether you agree or not, everything is a disposition of "cause and effect". Choice is what the powerfull elite class waves in our face to assign attributes for our consumption taste. If you decline to make a choice then you face a penalty. How can you call that choice?[/quote]Intuitively I can and vice versa, however for consistency and continuity sake I will withhold from further personal opinions.

Everything begins with choice. Those choices precipitate the causes and effects of one making those choices. Therefore, it is elementary that the solution to the problem is premised on the awareness of choice. Most people have been made to believe that choice is an illusion between those powerful elite and those without percieved power. However this is grossly underestimated. Knowledge or the accumulation thereof is the "illusion" between the two aforementioned entities. Choice is the action taken that determines the outcome depending on ones level of awareness or knowledge. Penalty is only a reality that can be invoked on acceptance of that reality.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7455118#msg7455118 date=1294084460]. . . . . . for the reasons I have stated, capitalism is tied to human nature and a subject matter for the humanities. Whatever alternative we adopt has its own merits and de-merits and equally impacting to life. I am conscious of the fact that capitalism is an ideal and theoretically beneficiall but its dehumanizing practice is what I question. There is a middle way to address the problems of capitalism. Functional and effective regulation and oversight, as well as deployable options for implementing redistributive remedies.[/quote]I would rather it remain within the realm of economics and explored within that discipline and its sub components regardless of its relationship to other the broad subject matters of Humanities

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=575586.msg7454607#msg7454607 date=1294077759]Interesting.[/quote]Deceptive

worry246:
morpheus24
You think that using long words makes you look clever WRONG.
At the end of the day America will follow so many other countries and refuse automatic citizanship to babies born to non citizens.

If you are intimidated by long big words go and pick up a dictionary and educate yourself on them instead of reflecting your insecurities. I didn't invent the words. I just use them.

Ps Give  me one good reason why they shouldn't change it under that its entrenched in their constitutin(which was intended for different reasons) info

Nigeria does Nigeria confer citizenship to children who's parents are non Nigerian or do they?

The following persons are citizens of Nigeria by birth-namely-

(a) every person born in Nigeria before the date of independence, either of whose parents or any of whose grandparents belongs or belonged to a community indigenous to Nigeria;

Provided that a person shall not become a citizen of Nigeria by virtue of this section if neither of his parents nor any of his grandparents was born in Nigeria.

(b) every person born in Nigeria after the date of independence either of whose parents or any of whose grandparents is a citizen of Nigeria; and

(c) every person born outside Nigeria either of whose parents is a citizen of Nigeria.

birdman:
There is really little difference between capitalism in Asia and the West. A quick reading of recent WTO disputes shows that EVERYBODY finds ways to prop up their countries industries, such that they are part state-sponsored, part free-enterprise. The Asians are just not as slick at doing this. This should be instructive for our leaders (hopefully), who accept world bank recommendations hook, line and sinker, eg IBB and SAP.

Precisely.

Unfortunately there are no visible debates on these issues that I am aware of within the country strong enough to influence policy.

Mudley313:
Ah complex minded folk. my reading comprehension is good enough to read and understand what exactly the article posted above is clearly talking about and not jump into unfounded conspiratorial conclusions originating from some annonymous nigerians online

Right right the overwhelming assumption and therefore answer to the question stems from the fear of a  brown mexican invasion of the US i.e (FEAR), nothing to do with other factors enumerated by us complex minded folk right. irrelevant in your simple observation.

In your world te The obvious answer is the simplest right. Its a republican propaganda machine yet the United states conducts a legal diveristy lottery scheme aimed at non european countries immigrating legally into the country which those crackers are and have been fully aware of since its inception.

Right!

Horus:
It is you who have to stop spreadind disinformation and lies through your nose, Gbagbo in 1990 created multipartism after puting the Ivorian government under pressure to vote and allow a new article of the constitution to allow multipartism.

Source: http://afriquinfos.centerblog.net/6642-multipartisme-20ans-apres-que-devient-la-ci

Gbagbo fought for multipartism. There is a difference. The existing government implemented multipartism. You still haven't answered my question. What did he do 10 years in power.

Horus:
Absolute CRAP!! 90% of the the rebels are not Ivorians and Ivority was created by Henri Kona Bedie. The coup d'Etat attemp was staged by Alassane Ouattara because of his presidential fiasco, not Gbagbo.

Right right. It wasn't Bedie and Gbagbo who continued to question Alassane's nationality and create ethnic tensions in the populous. By the way what constitutes an Ivorian.
Maybe you should ask your wife what it means to be an ivorian in 50 years of independence. What makes her Ivorian if there is such a thing. A mere generation of established nationality without true established basis on ethnicity, religion or political cohesion.

Horus:
They have been told to do so by Alassane Ouattara.

Right, one measly economist who had  no military service has the power to unite a rebel force full of armed men to do his will without any undelying reasons. Hmmmm?

Horus:
There is no war at the moment but there are rebels in the west who are forcing a population of 19.000 people to flee to Liberia and Guinea, they are being terrorized and violated by Alassane Ouattara's rebels (FN), why Ecomog dont help them? Instead Ecomog want to help the rebels. Strange isnt?

Cause you need to cut off the head of the serpent in order to make it incapable of biting you hard in the azz later down the line. Military strategy 101

Horus:
I go often in Ivory Coast and my wife is ivorian, stop believing the brainswashing crap of the western media, it is so easy to say that the problem is ethnic when the problem is not ethnic it is a problem coming from the west who want to control the country. It is France who give arms to the rebels. The MINDLESS ILLITERATES is Goodluck Jonathan, the "House Negro" of the west who is so eager to show his muscle just to please his white master. But everything will backfire on him politicaly.

The western media has no control over my ability to extract external information, analyze, dissect and interpret using my God given cognitive abilities constrained by the difficult impulse to be biased based on skewed data. I deal with the facts not propaganda my friend because in the end. They hardly lie.

What has laurent Gbagbo done for his people in the last 10 years of the 21st century to move his people forward other tha a deadlock staelmeat power struggle or does the excuse to govern come from instability.

If so what a bad leader, unable to multitask. Should be replaced don't you think?

Horus:
Nobody want to arm or break nigeria but your "house negro" president (Goodluck) have to care about the 2 Millions nigerians in Ivory Coast by providing food and job for them when they will come back to nigeria. At the moment he dont even think about their wellbeing.

Point 1: Irrelevant statement on "house negro". Don't deviate from the point at hand to your obvious obsession on Race inequalities.

Point 2: what progressive move has laurent Gbagbo instituted for his people since his last 10 bloody years in office. You seem to know everything else about ivory coast but cannot substantiate any visible reference to the question. Arguement for argementative sake,Horus

Insightful write up poster.

However I am in gross disagreemment with your last four conclusions stemmig from the following analysis:

df2006:
1. Mistrust for the Presidential System: The Ivorian crisis has deepened by mistrust for the Presidential system of government. It is a system that is inherently polarizing because in every country at the moment, it is becoming increasingly difficult for any Presidential election to result in a clear-cut winner or loser. I have decided that I shall deal with this issue in the Newcam Prosperity Pact which shall be unveiled soon as part of my campaign platform;

The presidential system of government is premised on the separation of powers in which there exists checks and balances btw arms of government in an effort to curb misuse, misintepretation and abuse of power. The problem with African countries in understanding and articulationg this system is in the overwhelming secondary factors that penetrate and influence the true objectives of the system in terms of Tribalism, Nepotism,Gross corruption, uncontrolled Greed, illiteracy of the electorate and the populous.

Presidential systems are not absolute in their interpretation and implementation and can be adjusted to fit each society based on the extenuating circumstances and percularity of the society, none the less holding fast to its principle framework as a guide to achieving consensus. The users in Africa only seek to manipulate these systems and further a state of exclusivety in administration. History will always prove that a state of inclusiveness and progressiveness holding the well being of the entire Citizenry first and foremost at heart has proven to be sustainable for most societies that recognize this. We all know this is what goes on in each African pseudo democratic states

df2006:
2. The Role of Electoral Commissions: The idea of independent electoral commissions for conducting and or monitoring elections has proven to be an illusion because most African countries have become so polarized that it is impossible to find individuals who are either neutral or independent in the political arena to incorporate into these commissions. In Cameroon much debate has centered on the role and composition of ELECAM. I don’t intend to waste much time talking about the role of ELECAM. I shall simply take ELECAM as it is and concentrate on the content of my message to the Cameroonian people through the Newcam Prosperity Pact and leave the rest to God.

If the problem therefore resonates from the inability of electoral commissions to be independent then other solutions should be sort after and discussed that advance the effectiveness of the system so far as to contract neutral external parties being employed to monitor these activites and I emphasis neutrality of these third parties in terms of politics and economics. Surely with all the countries in the world this can be done effectively. If you say it can't be done siting issue of sovreignty then in the end countries still get involved int he long run don't they?

df2006:
3. The Dangers of Foreign Support: One of the issues which any budding Presidential aspirant must consider is whether or not to go and seek the support of some foreign power for his ambitions. I have concluded that the biggest mistake that any presidential candidate can make is to seek the support of a foreign power. I believe that those who go out of their way to seek such support either have weak or no ideas or they are not sure of their popular support back home. Once the foreign power gives you such support, you have already mortgaged the sovereignty of the country to them in advance. Therefore, whether I sink or swim, I intend to limit my presidential campaign to Cameroon and shall not be visiting any European or American capital to solicit support

In terms of the increasing inevitable existence of globalization of the planet, to avoid engagement with other countries is futile in terms of political and economics. No man or no cournty is an island. What you are alluding to is continious dependency on colonial ties who have proven troublesome meddlers in African affairs mostly because of their economic interests on the continent. This cannot be avoided moving forward in the 21st century. China encounterd this, so did South African and so will other African countries. The only difference being that there was a consensus by the two former mentioned countries to focus its future on progressive principles that uplifted its people inevitably creating support, consolidating and legitimizing its power. Something unfortunately absent in other African nations who do not really have any respect for their citizens

df2006:
4. [b]Too young to wield global power: There is now an emerging trend in many western countries of young men in their early 40s rising to the pinnacle of political power in their countries. The advent of the internet and other electronic media has made it possible for anyone with communication and technical skills to leverage on the power of the internet to catapult themselves to power. However, it is only when they get to the very top of the political pyramid that they discover the true global reach of the power that their constitution confers on them. My concern is that they have not lived long enough to understand the true implications of the global power at their command and how its exercise affects human life in places that they never thought of when they were seeking power. These highly gifted young politicians that the west is releasing with increasing frequency on the world stage are beginning to scare me to death. This applies to political leaders as well as sudden powerful media giants such as we have seen emerge from Wikileaks.[/b]

This is the most imcomprehensable of all your points. It does not hold any water based on statistical information. Although I will conceed the notion that experience and age are positivly correlated to good leadership qualities and decision making processes, the real overwhelming factors that dictate leadership are the access to vital and good information and an all round ability to cognitively process that information in an intellectual capacity to predicting favorable outcomes. I can site many examples but leave that to your intelligence to understand. A recent report showed the average age of heads of states in Africa and the rest of the world in the past 50 years  with a 25 year gap existing between the two variables and indiating that the latter showed continious progression within their socities despite the fact that the HOS became younger and younger. Don't you thin there are implications to that date report.


In conclusion and in my humblest opinion. The focus should shift from a struggle to gain power and the placement of power in the hands of the people to lift themselves up from their predicaments, only then can individauls in governmet stand firm as legitimized servants to the public understanding that their powers  are turly predicated on how powerfull their populous become both intellectually, politically, socially and economically.

Good luck on your presidentail run. You are going to need it.

Horus:
Gbagbo created multipartism, before him only one party was allowed and political opposition was not allowed.

Stop lying through your nose and spreading disinformation to people. Gbagbo did not create multipartism. In what year did he do that. Please get your facts straight.

Horus:
Now Only you dont know that Alassane created the war by attacking Ivory Coast and killed 5000 ivorians. Or you deny this fact?

How can an Ivory coast citizen invade Ivory coast. Rebel soldiers were infuriated by the Robert Guie, Ivorite and  Gbagbo presidential fiasco and staged a coup feeling that they would be marginalized because of the tribalisitc tendencies of the South. Allasane was chosen by them after it appeared he had been excluded from previous elections due to "unreasonable" circumstances.

Horus:
Ecomog will not bring peace at all, even if Ecomog can put Alassane in power things will get worse and a civil war will start for a very long time. Nobody will allow a rebel, a terrorist and a puppet of the west to lead the country. The situation is not the same as Liberia and Sierra Leonne, there is too much fanatics civilians with weapons and things will get out of hands extremely rapidly.

You mean there are too many ethnicly hatred driven hungry young ivorians who are ready to fight cause they have been told to do so

Horus:
At the moment there is no war so Ecomog cannot stop the war is there is no war, Ecomog will start the war. Ivory Coast is not invading nigeria, it is nigeria who want to invade Ivory Coast. For Ivorians Ecomog=Nigeria. Now people in Ivory coast hate Goodluck Jonathan so much that they are very happy about the Abuja bomb blast at a the military barracks. If you insult the  soverignty of Ivory Coast like you did in your last post dont expect Ivorians to respect nigeria. Congratulation to MEND.

So Ecomog should wait for a war first before taking action. Right thats real smart coming from you Horus. Wait and let people die first then they will be justified to come do something then. Right right. Very intelligent strategy.

The Ivorians that hate Goodluck are MINDLESS ILLITERATES who cannot comprehend the enormous human suffering that will soon engulf Ivory coast because their elite leaders are brainswashing and diverting their attention away from the long term implications of ignorant ethnic driven political leadership.

If it were left to me I wouldn't send in the troops, only problem is if issues do escalate those hungry refugees will start flooding other West African countries crying about how they are being terrorized and violated asking for handouts from the same UN, imperialist France and other African neighbours

Mudley313:
read the article you posted yourself well my friend. it says "CHILDREN OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS". these are bills to curb illegal immigration and ofcourse we know it's targeted at mexicans by xenophobic republicans who now run the house. these crackers are scared of being overan population-wise in the future by latinos. you know how political power can come with population. if not, birthright citizenship is CONSTITUTIONAL and if you understand how the US governmental system is structured you know it's almost imposible to change something enshrined in the constitution

has nothing to do with population control as the doofus above are trying to imply

Ah simple minded folk. Never can see past propaganda can yah!

Horus:
The attack on the Nigerian Embassy in Cote d’Ivoire is a reaction to the action taken by ECOWAS, whose chairman is President, Goodluck Jonathan. Be ready to receive 2 Millions Nigerian refugees from Ivory Coast.

Hey we are 150 million i don't think an additional 2 to 5 million will break us do you?

Horus:
Alassane Ouattara started the rebellion by killing five thousands ivorians. He should be put on trial for war crime. The attack on the Nigerian Embassy in Cote d’Ivoire is a reaction to the action taken by ECOWAS, whose chairman is President, Goodluck Jonathan. Ivory Coast will oppose anyone that would dare to invade the country. Any leader that would be insane enough to send its army into The Ivory Coast, would made his own country an eternal enemy of Ivory Coast.

Stop being sentimental and use your cerebral cortex with all this your soverignty crap and go read the ECOWAS Charter which Ivory Coast signed on for. Thats the same nonsense propaganda people like you who have no knowledge of military intervention kept spreading when Ecomog came and assited in liberating sierra leone from the Infamous R.U.F.who were brutally massacring their people. The idiots kept on calling it an invasion and the Nigerians were coming to come steal sierra leones national resources and take over their country. Bull Crap!

The real reason Ecomog is ready to sacrifice valuable soldier's lifes is because an all out civil war will destabilize the region again and cause every one within that region to suffer political and economical consequences including mass outflow of refugees, gross genocide and all sorts of illegal activities.

By the way you stillhaven't answered the question on what substantial progress MR gbagbo has doen for his people since his tenure

It should happen as soon as possible. The system they have now is not sustainable in the long run. NOne the less their required population growth index requires that they grow faster at a rate they are underperforming at therefore this will not be an issue in the short run.

You don open eye Abi. The grass is not greener on the other side. You young boys don't know what you are getting into when you hop on a plane and go somewhere without doing your homework.

South Africa has roughtly 24% unemployment rate, are facing a large inflow of immigrant influx and has tightened rules on settling in their country.

Talk less you who are underskilled coming to join the que at this time.

Horus:
It is not a court, get your fact sraight , I am fluent in french language and I can tell you that it is Le Conseil Constitutionel. There is also the CEI (Commission Electorale Independante) composed with 90% of Allassane Ouattara supporters.
The CEI was infiltrated by Allassane Ouattara suporters under pressure from the UN, this mean that the CEI with 90% of Allassane Ouattara supporters is not independant. I think you are confusing Le Conseil Constitutionel and the CEI (Commission Electorale Independante).

Semantics my friend. a constitutional council is similar to a judiciary brance of government. I don't need to be fluent in french in understand that concept.

Again this is a power struggel game being played and has nothing to do withthe advancement of the ovory coast. List anything progressive Gbagbo has done for Ivory coast since his tenure in office.

Allasane helped his nation during the 1980's cocoa price crisis and served as PM and stepped down as prime minsiter as well going back to work for the UN. he hasa more credibility

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7436431#msg7436431 date=1293745176]Industrial corporations are the champions of capitalism. They are the feeders that keep market swings within a tolerable margin of loss. The consumer bloc has power too; to hijack the control and tip the dynamics of demand and supply in its favor and the corporations know that. Please, don't start saying we are all consumers from the CEO down to the homeless person, I am well aware of that and shouldn't have to give it voice in this discussion. However, industry giants lobby and influence government legislation against consumers. This results in de-regulation for the industries and dis-integration of common cause alliance for the consumer. For most part the legislator we vote for is the candidate the corporate giants want us to have. . . but we are often too diluted and diverted to see past the face value.[/quote]and now that you have so eloquently enumerated what you percieve is the problem what do you suggest are the solutions.
Labour unions. oh wait they already exist but what happened to them. They got power and now are adding to the problem than solving them
A massive reset of the system to accomodate what you believe will be a resolution to the above obvious issues? Oh wait some countries already tried that. A group of them became powerful and became part of the problem than solving them.
A suggestion to adopt a new system advocated and championed by like minded people like you who have so carefully identified the problems we are very much aware of and therefore are capable of resolving them. Oh wait  that democrats isn't it. The champions ofthe poor and exploited, what happend to them huh?
A coup de tat? Don't need to sample exmaplesof that outcome
All that is simply going to happen is the replacemnt of one set of conspirators for another. If men were angels my friend only if men were angels.

As i said earlier Everything begins with Choice. No one can take that from you You only delegate or relegate that right away  conciously or sub conciously. Sub concious requires a prereqesite of being ignorant. concious is after the fact yet being docile and complacent

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7436431#msg7436431 date=1293745176]There is the notion in every society that if we study hard and work hard, the end result will somehow take care of itself and we will achieve success. Those of us who studied hard, worked hard and ended up slaving under the prodigal, school drop-out boss are very pragmatic about the realities of that notion. It is a campaign. . . . a propaganda to keep the stream of capitalism flowing.[/quote]Your statements above lead me to believe you are still soul searching on finding meaning and have not resolved certain conflicting issues you are still battling with. Neo capitalism only requires that you study and work smart,not necessarily hardSuccess is defined by what one believes success should be quantified by not what someone else defines as success. Capitalism is percived to measure success in material quantities. The more you have the more value you possess ergo the more successful you are.  This is only an idea and your reality if you choose to make it so. . Everything begins with choice and not cause and effect as you allude to. Once you become aware of this you have choice.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7436431#msg7436431 date=1293745176]With everything else you said so far being correct, I am continuing with the engagement because the revelations will ultimately lead into the background of those cyclic economic downshifts you alluded to in an earlier response. I agree this is not a first time depression but I contend that the repetition is the result of deliberate machinations of the instruments of capitalism and again, I question the viability of the system to the true meaning of life.[/quote]I knew you were going there. Though I will conceed the fact that there are entities that have manipulated the SYSTEM in terms of the need for power and control of factors of production i.e Greed, Power and control, the system in of itself achieves its objectives in the overal societal goals of allevating poverty, improving the living standards of its members. and thus providing the condusive environment for the individual or society to ponder the meaning of life as they see fit to define it and become content with it. I know I don't need to discuss these issues in particular as you are well aware of them. The problem then becomes dealing with the inherent imbalances in the system created by these elements that are out to manipulate( in a bad way) the available instruments of capitalism not necessarily adopting new systems we feel are in opposition to the one already in existence and are therefore right. No matter what alternative is supposedly adopted the elements inherent inthe present system will exist in these new systems in different formats so you are indirectly not solving the problem but changing the tactics.

tpia1:
^^try to get a grip and quit panicking even if you have a good reason to. [namely fear].

no need to derail the the thread as is your habit.

Stop trying to sound like you have any credibility Tpia, just cause your audience are obvious 15 year olds who are fascinated with the appearance of East Africans and Biracial people and can't quite comprehend logically their perceptions doesn't endorse your lack of cognitive abilities in deciphering complex information.

Your observations are and will always be mere suggestions that cannot be substantiated per your picture spamming methodology.

The best one. I want to be like Micheal joseph jackson because of how he forgived .When he was molested as a child. He forgived. When he was ridiculed he forgived