₦airaland Forum

The President did the right thing. He has adhered to the overwhelming voice of his people. It was an honorable thing to do. I applaud that. However here come the opposition sharks who now smell blood and will come with their promises of changing the country when in all honesty its merely a power struggle on what to control.

Long live Africa and ALL its people. Change is in the wind.

Now only if those fools to the south like Gbagbo will do the same thing. I doubt it though since most of the people are illiterate ethnic driven buffons

DeeJay20:
You say i am kissing CAP28 azz and targeting my comments at you.

Dude, Dont get it twisted,

The only countries to have benefited from IMF/World Bank Loans
were Britain, France, Germany & Japan after the Second World War
when the Marshall Plan was implemented to revive these economies.

And the reason why they had to be revived was due to the destruction
of their Infrastruture during the war. USA was the only "Major Economic Power country" to come out of the War with its infrastructure "intact"

and they gave Loans to the Major Warring countries at "Low Interest Rates" to Build up
their economies and assimulate them into the USA Political, Financial, Economics
and Defense Security "Umbrella" Known as[b] "the Group of 7"(now G20), "O.E.C.D" & "NATO"
[/b]
The Core Founding members of these Groups are: USA, Britain, France, Germany, Japan.

The other countries in these groups are linked to the Core founding members by vital mutual "Geo-Political"/Geo-Strategic Interests" ie "The scandinavians countries (Norway, Finland etc), the Benulux Countries(Beguim, Holland, Luxemburg etc) ,the South Continental Europe Countries (Spain, Italy,Portugal etc) Far East Countries(Japan,South korea etc)

The IMF/World Bank was founded in New Hampshire (USA) by USA Financial Elite with support from the British, French etc for the purposeof establishing a "New Financial World Architecture" with the USA as the leader.

The World Bank was Initially called "The International Bank for Reconstruction
and Developmet" which was tasked with the assignment of Building up
Western Europe after 1945.

The Americans knew that they had to rebuild Britain, France, Germany and Japan
becuase not to do so would breed resentment to the USA and due to the Former dynamism of these states they would pull themselves up econpmically collectively or othewise, so it was safer for the USA to help rebuild these countries and bring them to
their side in order to prevent further economic contention, chaos and war.

Your should also realise that these countries are major shareholders
in the IMF/WORLD BANK & BIS,

[Dude i am not attacking you. Just stating the facts and truth of the matter,

So what  implications does the above have for African countries in terms of IMF loans?

The only thing I am getting from above is the same "imperialist" redrick. The economic world order" reference. US is the largest shareholder ergo this is a scheme to wield overwhelming power over other countries. Since the cat is out of the bag now what?

What you failed to include in your analysis is to mention the underlying reason most of  these "other" nations were successful in implementing and successfully rebuilding their economies post World War two affairs. Factors that are lacking in most African countries involved in IMF/World bank economics that presents the problem of not being able to follow guidelines that would bring their economies out of stagnation. Here are a few pointers:

1. They already had diversified industries and developed institutions in faciliating the monitoring of fiscal policies and implementation procedures compared to unaccountable fiscal mismanagement and syphoning of fund practices which occur is rampant in most African countries i.e How did Mobutu simply walk away with millinos of dollars leaving his nation with a balloning 175 billion dollar debt. Is that the IMF's fault or responsibility?

2. Comparative advantage in reference to industrilized sectors of their pre world war II economies which again faciliated  speedy recovery and shielded them from world economic crisis situations  incomparison to most African countries who cannot boast for more than 2 to 3 industrial sectors in their economies and are affected majorly by global economic shifts

3. Lack of the ability to syphone large amounts funds out of the system and the continious beggar status African contries show The continious dependency on the IMF is what is killing African nations. They have a choice of not taking the money and finding alternative means of building capital and increasing revenue streams.

Problem is they can't . African countries are stagnated by their own doing. They do not know how to implement macro economic policies, invest in innovative technics or generate multiples of money in an effective and efficient manner. They keep relying on the IMF to tell them what to do, borrowing without investing in sustainable growth sectors vis a vis the new legal methodology of syphoning money out of government. They have been relieved of tons of debt amounts yet still stagnated.

South Africa is about the only  good example of a country that engages in strong internal debates interms of how these loans will affect their regional and global standing before they go on taking on IMF loan obligations. The rest of Africa is indeed a sad story.

DeeJay20:
b]NO OTHER COUNTRIES ON ANY OTHER CONTINENT apart FROM EUROPE AND JAPAN IN ASIA HAVE DEVELOPED UNDER IMF/WORLD BANK POLICIES!, NOT ONE!!![/b]

Thats a false statment otherwise give specific examples. The IMF/World Bank doesn't only deal in funding loans to distressed countries. Their tasks include but are not limited to partnering, consulting, providing implementation strategies for and in conjuction with their member countries in the logistical use of monetary loans and  policy decision making.  The failure of the IMF in any country is not soley based on the IMF but on the country itself.

Therefore it is incorrect to conclude the above by only looking at what they do in terms of loan bailouts and funding issues countries face,  The UN's  millenium development goals was accepted by each country that signed on to its accord and in order to achieve its outlined objectives you need funding.

Where are they going to get it from. They can't sell any worthwhile bonds to generate debt financing, They don't create environments in which innovation thrives, they don't have steady tax policies to generate incoming govt revenue, Even basic power and infrastructure is absent to facilitate a massive influx of FDI. Yet people like Govt fashola believes that sanctioning projects like the Eko Atlantic city project is a sustainable development goal for lagos to embark on? Is that the IMF's decision? Where are the priorities?

African governments have no plan and have no direction, just running around in circles acting like they know what they are doing.

It is not the IMF's job to continue to oversee and device solutions to African problems and before any one signed up with them I don't think they ever forgot to mention that they are profit driven entities that require a return on the money they loan out to people.

If you don't want to be a slave to bankers n loan officers its either "YOU" understand what you are signing up for, if you don't then don't sign up, find drastics ways to repay your loans low enough to renegotiate terms with your creditor,device strategies to live within your means or default completely and take the hits of being branded a "no go are"a with the long term plas of rebuilding your finances from within by creating value in every aspect of your society. 500 BILLION DOLLAR total African debt and a further 93 BILLION per year needed to develop is irresponsible. We need to start taking responsibility of our future!

Shikena!

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=575932.msg7482100#msg7482100 date=1294415980]Here we go. . . . Daley, .another rogue investment banker employed to advice the President. Did not President Obama preach transparency? Everything with this appointment is muddy.

He is the brother of the man who vacated the position in Chicago that the man who once held the position he has been selected to fill is aspiring to occupy. Got it?

On another flip, he is a regional chairman of a 'too big to fail" bank that was on the TARP welfare handout.

Transparency my butt! [/quote]Negro Ntns

on a side note. Do you think the the government should have left the banks to fail. If yes why and what do you think the aftermath would be as far as the economy is concerned and if no then what do you see is the big issue concerning Tarp and government buying out Toxic assests.

Middle easterners in general

tunnytox:
Lmao so I should stay quiet because I do not agree with your opinion, may be you'll be more of a dictator than Gbagbo sef

Anyone that uses the term "Imperialist" should be transported back to the days of the Roman empire.

tunnytox:
@morpheus 24
Are you an Ivorian? if not I must say that you're only standing far away to pass judgement, it is an open secret that Quattarra is an agent of the Imperialists, as far as I know most Ivorians don't want him. I don't believe that Quattara's hands are clean too but I believe many Ivorians prefer a lesser devil in Gbagbo not a westerner's imposed puppet.

You see what happens most times is that we base our judgement on what we read in western newsites but sometimes if you want to get real info try and interact with some Ivorians themselves , Horus wife is an Ivorian and I have at least 2 Ivorian friends most the info I'm getting from them is in contrast to what I read in the news which means someone is not telling the truth

What is wrong with you people sometimes. Do you want me to tell you I have friends from Ivory coast too to authenticate what I am saying. What is it in the news that I am reporting to you. Did I tell you because The Western Media said Gbagbo should go that is why I am saying the same thing too.
Pleae if you don't have any serious thing to say keep quiet

superboi:
Ok morpheus24, let me clarify abit from my point of view. I feel if you sincerely want to look into this matter you would have to go back to 2002(some may go further, depending of how much of CIV history you know) when Gbagbo first won the election the same Quattara said he would make the state ungoverable for Gbagbo and that year the rebellion took place. After a while the GOV started getting a better of the rebels then France came and acted as a buffer, If Ecowas was serious about precedence it was then they should have intervened and insisted that the rebels be disarmed and allow Gbagbo hand over in 2005.
But instead they watched the rebels cut a power sharing deal as SORO was made prime minister , and they never agreed to disarm. A lot of people say Gbagbo has ruled for 10 years but they forget that it was because the Rebels refused to disarm as per the power sharing agreement(People like T.Mbeki was even against the election taking place with the rebels armed). I think we should ask our selves why didn't the Rebels want to disarm?
1. They were minning diamonds and cocoa.
2. delay tactics getting stronger arming to unseat Gbagbo
3. They knew they could manipulate election in their halve of the country.
4. They had strong backers and instructions.

I think the precedence we should have set was in 2002 by telling the rebels that as long as they are armed no elections would take place in the country.

Thank you for clarifying. You do have a valid arguement. My only interjection would be to go back further into the whole CIV calamity to find out why the rebels seceded in the first place. Some of these rebels were ex soldiers in the then formal army of the CIV and the disunity was premised on northern ethnic suspicions of their future faith in what was culminating to be a shift in power to the south to what was considered more ethnic Ivorians. They backed Alassane because he was seen as a representation of their struggle and indirectly became the military wing of his political party.

The precedence should have been set then by Ecowas but there were other conflicting situations in Africa that required more attention vis a vis Ecomog just coming out of a taxing war effort mission in sierra leone and the Liberian aftermath. Nigeria was also newly transitioned into Democratic rule and needed that "legitimacy" to move forward in any other regional activitities

superboi:
@morpheus24, If the UN and ECOWAS-Ghana support rebel troops(mind you they were suppose to have disarmed since) in disarming and fighting the country's legitimate Armed Forces, What moral ground would the UN have in telling Iran not to ARM or support Hizbollah in Gaza or Boko haram In Nigeria? Or why won't Russian or Chavez Arm Farca rebels in Colombia After this invasion? People are watching that why you see even the USA is getting cold feet and would soon leave the foolish(as usual) French to clean their Poo. If the French lose CIV the lost a whole lot of investment and Business, they should send their own troops to die not us.

Don't understand the correlation with Ivory coast and the rest of the situations you mention. Are you arguing for or against the rebel side in Ivory Coast? Clarify. The UN is not supporting a rebel troop but the outcome of a said democratic election. Two different things.

Gbagbo is playing the wait and see game in hopes that a power sharing deal at the most will be brokered. Fair enough from his perspective but extremely bad for West African politics and African politics in general.

The French can't loose the IV if the IV is still heavily dependent on their former colonial masters. France is about the only powerful EU country that bear similarities to  their political institutions, language and economic structures. China may be an alternative but I doubt the IV's have enough negotiation skills to get good deals out of that partnership.

Ecomog (Nigeria in particular) is trying to assert itself again post the liberia-Sierra leone conflict resolutions. These high marks gave them a lot of leverage power in dealing with the international community and I believe the government feels this is an opportunity for them. French don't need to send in their troops if they have a proxy to fight that battle. Would you?

cap28:
so how do you explain France's backing of Omar Bongo of Gabon for 42 years

France's backing of Blaise Campaore of Burkina Faso since 1987  

France's backing of Paul Biya of Cameroun since 1982

Belgium and  the united states backing of Mobutu of Zaire for 38 years??

the "international community's" failure to intervene following IBB's annulment of June 12 1993 elections in nigeria??

I am speaking strictly in terms of West African politics without reference to What the "French" do in their former Francafrique coalitions.

However if taking the former colonial power "France" into context. Its not a surprise that the underlying denominator is "Economics". Who is a more favorable candidate for them is who they will back. Thats no surprise again. Frustrating as that may be for the process and wanting the solution to be as easy as demanding the French to stay out of African affairs,  the job of these African leaders is to understand that the French haved assumed that these African leaders are corruptable because of the lure of power, wealth and control and will seek what ever means to cling unto it engaging in mindless conflicts for resources they don't know what to do with. They therefore will continue to have a strong hold on their colonies politics because of dependency on their former colonial masters in defining the confines of their powers.

What is necessary is that these African leaders fastforward themselves into the 21st century and inject new ideals, new sustainable frameworks into the political arena recognizing that the world is Global now, there's no going back, no continious pointing fingers at the French and no way they are going to avoid French interference by trying to isolate themselves from the international community on grounds of "soverign rights"( Zimbabwe is a case in point, lets see how Mugabe fairs)  but are able to use these same concepts to mitigate the problem by clearly and openly working within the definitions of theirs and the world community views of democracies which cannot be disputed by their colonials or the "international community".

The following countries are an example of the possibilites of this sort of shift to progress in Africa in terms of what I am alluding to and can be discussed in depth: Ghana, South Africa, Malawi, Botswana and Rwanda




A synposis of my view on the following countries:

France's backing of Paul Biya of Cameroun since 1982

Biya is not hostile to French interests in the country so I don't see a reason why he will not be supported by them. The French don't care much about the ethnic, religious or political issues of their former colonies in as far as it does not interfer with their mostly economic interests. Please note the use of "French" and not UN, US or International community.

There really isn't any strong oppostion in cameroon cept the Anglophone south westerners who are disatisfied with the mostly frenchified cameroonians.


Belgium and  the united states backing of Mobutu of Zaire for 38 years??
The cold war had a strong influence on African politics at that time and Patrice Lumumba was an emerging leader with a tight socialist agenda coupled with seeking ties with the russians because of his detest for belgium economic interests.  The US saw this as an ideological battle more so than an economic threat and got involved. The belgians understood the same and were more economically tied to their former colony therefore they sort a semi illiterte commander who had enough weapons and troop support to discredit and remove Lumumba asap.


France's backing of Blaise Campaore of Burkina Faso since 1987

Sorry haven't studied anything about this particular country so can't speak to the French involvement however I would speculate that it is not so different from its neighbouring francophone nation politics

RSA:
I am happy you've stated that only 'few' South Africans have said all those negative things,yes South Africa is not corrupt proof,we do get here and there some corrupt policeman or goverment officials just like anywhere in the world including first world countries but majority of people are honest and don't accept bribes,infact you will be arrest in SA if you try to bribe a official.

Let me teach you also a little bit about SA politics,Just like IGBO'S in Nigeria who feels that they don't belong in Nigeria,whites South Africans feels the same about this Mandelas South Africa,most of them who use to support the aapartheid feel misplaced in this country,they grew up thinking that a black man could not run a country succesfully,they said we willrundown this country,they said black people are uncivilised and without their control we will turn into animals.They said black people are born corupt,they pointed to mainland Africa as an example.

Today those who are still in the country try so hard to find faults in our people,they are still saying all kinds of bad things about us,yet we are treating them well and continue to make even more money in SA which makes it difficult to for them to leave,They drive in some of the most sophisticated road network in Southern hemisphere and Africa,when they visits their friends in eurpe they go thru some the most modern airports in the world,their children go to some of the most well respected universities in the wolrd ,all this in are in the Mandelas South Africa.


those who left the country where on the mission of spreading lies and their hateful perceptions about our people in foreign land and still not succeeding,they've said so many lies that when people visit this country they get pleasantly suprised and go back home tell their buddies and come back for more holidays,that is why South Africa is the most visited country in Africa,people don't visit corrupt failed country.

And yes most of this hateful,racist South Africans comeback home in their numbers screaming there is nothing like home after they realised that South Africa is in good hands and well runned.We hosted the second if not the biggest international sport,over 500 000 foreigners visited us without a hic,we are now a member of BRIC nations,five biggest emerging markets in the world,if that is not telling you that South Africa is going up then tell me what it means.

Well said

RSA:
War is never the solution,ECOWAS can topple Ghagbo and install Quatarra but that does not gaurantee peace.It wont mean that Ghagbo people will stop fighting,this war could go on for years and could cripple economy of the rigion.And outbreak of a civilwar in Ivory Coast will distabilise the whole region.And with all the positives,stability and growth in the region war will overturn all this achivements.

ECOWAS leaders must not try to please the West,they should try to find the solution on this issue with the region stability in mind.South Africa and SADC nation did that with Zimbabwe,Zimbabwean situation could have been worse,if the right and calm decisions were not taken.Today things are getting back to normal in Zimbabwe,changes will come although slowy but without bloodshed atleast not war.

Ivory Coast situation needs calm heads.

@RSA

Gbagbo does not have enough troops and miltary power to survive a war against the UN backed ECOWAS and northern troops combined. He knows fully well he will not win. What ECOWAS is trying to avoid is ultimately the loss of lives of civilians who will be caught  in the cross fire and a destablization of the region in terms of economics activity and refugees. Allowing Gbagbo stay on only creates a precedence for what future West African leaders will copy when faced with loosing a grip on power. It will become a norm within that region as usual and will the politics of the day for decades to come.

Zimbabwe's situation is vastly disimilar to Ivory coast's problems in historical, military and economic contexts. Southern African politics contrasts to West African politics in many ways. the number of coup de tats and civil wars that have arisen within the West African region will clue you into the deeper ethnic and religious issues that plague it. A consequence of an incorrect balkanization of the region by colonial rule but for which the West AFricans can't seem to figure out how best to resolve and move forward

cap28:
The best alternative for Greece and every other european nation that is under attack from IMF predators following this economic credit crunch is to reform the banking institutions by implementing harsh regulatory mechanisms to prevent the abuse that caused this problem - why should the ordinary man on the street  pay for the economic mismanagement caused by the irresponsible banking elite?
You love to talk about solutions and alternatives but i note that none of your own responses have proferred solutions but merely parrotted right wing views espoused by western govts with vested interests, when are you going to come up with YOUR OWN INDEPENDENT VIEWS without parrotting the views of CNN, BBC and other corporate media outlets?

Harsh regulatory measures eh? In what form? For what present benefit will that do in restoring a balance in the interim and the near future? how does this devise a stratgey in getting Greece out of its present predicament?

I on the other hand would support and advocate for an increase in excise and other forms of Taxation i.e. V.A.T proposed by the programme and several of the austerity measures the plan states in reducing public sector wages, cutting social welfare programmes deemed to be overreaching and exploited and in addition increasing direct taxation on most of the institutions that played a part in speculative practices that contributed to the crisis.  Call it right wing if you wish bro its economics 101. Cut spending/ Raise taxes,  adjust input-ouput in the short term.

Your narrow minded alarmist speeches on multinational entities doesn't allow you to think clear enough,  assuming that the economic problem of Greece's soverign debt is solely based on the manipulation of entities like Goldmach sachs and the likes in business speculation and nothing to do with bloated government spending programmes.

What you fail to mention to your audience is that these same govt borrow's money to fund their ever increasing social welfare programs as a means of maintaing the living standards of their societies knowing fuly well that they haven't invested in any worthwhile programs that are intended in the long term to increase global competiveness as a eventuality of generating additional revenue that would increase GDP and increase revenue into the government to service its debt obligations. Therefore if the people are aware of this fact and complacent they are likwise as guilty of the same crime in indulging in the same speculative measures as their private sector counter parts in hedging their bets on increasing revenue streams. on a speculative basis

Who is more likely to increase these streams. The Goldman sachs or the factory worker who earns at least minimum wage, has a social security, credit cards, a house on mortgage, credit cards, free health care and govt subsidies . Last time I checked Greece was a democracy. The people can vote in and vote out people who are supporting these measures. Why don't they? Its a government of the people isn't it.

These govts have been able to borrow cheaply because they have been viewed in the general market as being financial stable to pay their debts hence the capital transfer. The only reasonable solution to a problem like this would be to tackle the spending equation from both sides of, irrespective of what privileges the citizenry feel is too much or how businesses would percieve these restrictive policies.

There in lies the dilemma for any sensible government that is livig beyond its means. Of course you can't see that.

Oh by the way sorry to burst your bubble but I don't listen to CNN or BBC for anything other than political issues. Okay maybe BBC but only cause I like the way they pronouce their words neither do I side with a right wing,  left wing or any other flapping apparatus agenda.

cap28:
Yes africans must adopt the same stance and refuse to continue to allow the mass transfer of wealth into the hands of the IMF and the multinationals, there should be fair and equitable negotiations around debt rescheduling without the imposition of draconian SAP policies.   
Africans like yourself are so used to being abused and exploited that you accept without question the predatory and unfavourable conditions imposed on african economies without a second thought, this is why you are blindly advocating that the Ivorien people should back a man whose loyalties and allegiances lie with an imperial enemy - lets give you a standing ovation!!!!

I won't even dignify that statement

cap28:
There you go again parrotting right wing economic propaganda, who said there are no other alternatives other than to implement SAP?  Name me one country in the world where SAP policies were implemented which worked.
Your ignorance is mind blowing!!  Who told you that the greek people were responsible for their country's  national deficit? the greek govt in cahoots with Goldman Sachs were solely responsible for the economic mismanagement of Greece's economy and then fraudulently tried to cover up their debts,when that didnt work they resorted to shifting the burden of paying off those debts onto the Greek people, can you explain the bolded sentence because it makes absolutely no sense to me !!!!!

The variable here is the expense of debt not necessarily SAP programmes. You view these instruments as detrimental to a socieety but I contend that  only in as much as they do not produce their intended results of creating a favorable market perception that the said country can service its debts after the programme has been succesfully implemented. Ergo it can now borrow more money at substantially lower interests rates and without binding restrictions or obligations.

In 1945 post world war 2 the united states stood at debt ratio of 100% (some say even more) to its GDP. Yet immediately preceeded the largest expasionary growth the US economy had ever experienced in addition to just coming out of a massive recessionary period. SAP's were not officially implemented however the implicit effects were felt as far as austerity measures go.

cap28:
what do you mean by "broken down internal systematic structural proccesses" or are you merely using big words to make yourself sound intelligent?  It is apparent that your knowledge and understanding of SAPS is non existent, contrary to your erroneous view that SAPS have not been successfuly implemented in africa i would say that the reverse is the case - african leaders have been very successful in implementing them and this is why the average african lives on less than a dollar a day, suffers devalued currency, experieinces high levels of unemployment, poor or non existent health care, education and other social services, these are all indicators of cuts in govt spending - try and pay attention.

Those are not the objectives of an intended SAP p. While most African govts are good at initiating massive cuts to balance its budget it has not and does not take the necessary dual step of increasing revenue potentials because it lacks the ability to do this to increase taxes on anything is vitrual impossilbe cept the multi nationals who are not in the business of letting profits go so easily
The African story is complex because it as of yet cannot seem to revise policies to innovate, diversify and create indigenously grown sectors within its economies that will work as a catalyst to generate wealth and service the government vis a vis taxation. Stagnant on its investment side SAP will unfortunately have a harsh effect onthe lowest clas of society in terms of livin standards

Bro i am tired of arguing with you cause its taxing when you have nothing to offer me intellectually cept one sided red rederick and African history 101 lessons. You are not a critical thinker just an obvious angry inflammatory propagandist who can't seem to see past his own ideologies and paints every other person and  profit driven organization outside of his control as stooges and mind bending entities bent on dominating the world. Sorry you still remain a conspiracy theorist to me

[quote][/quote]

cap28:
Its quite tragic to see how some of our people who claim to be knowledgeable end up making themselves look s.tupid with ridiculous arguments in a bid to defend the indefensible.

last year Greece was told that its national deficit stood at 13% of its GDP and it was told that it would have to implement IMF austerity measures in order to reduce this debt. This meant that the Greeks would have to cut public expenditure, increase taxes, extend the retirement age, and slash jobs - this is how the greek people reacted to this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHeeA-4o8kE

Now if the Greeks who are a european nation with a much higher standard of living than Ivory Coast can see the long term dire consequences of implementing such draconian austerity measures what hope can there be for a country like Ivory Coast where 60% of the population already live below the poverty line and life expectancy is a mere 56 years old?

Bro as you correctly stated no developing country which has implemented IMF structural adjustment programmes has ever emerged from the status of an economic basket case.

What dire consequences?

Your problem is you continue to restate stuff without presenting any alternatives.  Good reporting. Aljazeera should hire you as a reporter. You'll do well.

What alternative is there for Greek? What do you believe will address the problem?.

If I am guessing right then in your view its the same solution for African nations, to blame, ring to justice  and hang all the elitists, corporate, government officials who brought them into this situation. yureka, Clap for yourself!!!



The greeks have outspent what their government brings and were complacent in and have no other way to go than to implement SAP stratgeies to cut spending including all types of social welfare policies.  Most of europe has followed suite because this has worked in the past but an alternative would be to negotiate long term strategic goals of concentrating on innovative solutions to increase competiveness thereby increase revenue in conjuction with cutting wasteful spending.

The Africans IMF SAP strategies have been unsuccessful because of their broken down internal systematic and structural processess.

now thats a real debate!. keep up your dissemination of information. I am learning so much more of what I already knew!. DOOMSDAY PROPHETS!

DeeJay20:
The way people reason on the forum makes me wonder whether they
still have any productive analyses cells in their brian,

CAP28 has dropped some valid point and all some people
can do is give *Lame" counter arguements,

Countries that have received IMF/World Banks Loans which one of them has done well in reviving their Economies apart from Britian, France, Germany & Japan after the Second World War?

In the event that your above statment is targeted at me I suggest you present your own reasonable arguement on the reasons IMF loans have not suceeded in various African countries rather than kissing someone elses a.z.z

cap28:
hahaha now i understand how you operate, when you realise that you have the lost the debate and you can no longer continue along your ridiculous line of reasoning you resort to name calling like a little boy having a temper tantrum - you are a joke.

I am sorry my friend don't pat yourself on the back so quickly. This was never a debate in the first instance. An unbiased analysis would take mutiple factors into consideration when arguing a side and you are simply arguing outside of the fringes of my platform of reason. Ergo I cannot continue a debate with you and refuse to waste any intellectual energy on you. Anyone that brands people as zombie puppets and stooges dismisses and diminishes those individuals intellectual capacities and hinges on a precipice of extremist view points. Take our exchange as a win if you so please.

cap28:
All throughout this debate i have provided you with facts - historical facts in order for you to understand what led up to this current crisis - you dismissed them as history 101

The only thing you have suceeded in doing is repeat a common version of what most intelligentsia's already "comprehend" as sum part of intrinsic problems plaguing most African countries. Your excerps, arguements and ramblings are not unique nor peculiar to the Ivory coast nor does it drive home any point in particular or advance any progressive measures other than the usual alarmist point of the Imperialist stealing our wealth/resources. I am not interested in rehearsing the "problems" as they are quite evident within any African context.

cap28:
then i provided you with an analysis of the impact that SAP policies have had on Ivory Coast's economy during Gbagbo's tenure and the reasoning behind France's decision to endorse Outtara instead of Gbagbo - i even used the example of Okonjo Iweala who was also used in a similar way to negotiate nigeria's debt relief package  - you dismissed those as conspiracy theories - despite the fact that i even provided a link to a reputable web site which has an impeccable track record of reporting unbiased news.

I repeat I do not need a rehearsal on the evils of neo colonialist activites in African affairs. What you are presenting to me are "cause and effect" analysis without a valid presentation of an agenda other than plays on puppet masters and backroom handshakes. The only clear thoughtful arguement in your entire historical lesson is on the statement of the SAP programmes not work . The only debatable "process' driven portion of your entire monlogue.

What do you want to happen? Who did you expect France to endorse in the first place? given these past analysis is Gbagbo therefore a better candidate_ based on what premise_Pat performance, present performance, his height, weight? This aint a debate. Its African politics 101 class. Tell me something I don't already know, please

cap28:
The problem with people like you is that you suffer from what nigerians call "over sabi" you think you know it all but you actually know absolutely nothing, you walk around enveloped in a fog of ignorance thinking that you have all the answers, when people challenge your limited "knowledge" your fragile ego fragments into a million pieces and then you become abusive and resort to name calling - you are pathetic.

What is your point and what are you tyring to drive home? That France interfes in franco-African countries' affairs (got it).  That the principles of capitalist enterprises require an exploitaton/manipulation of at least one factor of production in the attainment of profit( clear as crystal). That African leaders are prone to corruption through bribes ( wow thats a revelation!). Since most of the middle class of any society who are HISTORICALLY the motivators of change within any society are in self imposed economic exiles outside of the systems they bark loudly at

What next?

To the undiscerning eye it looks like you are saying something but you really aint?

cap28:
You can resort to sarcasm all you want but you will be laughing on the other side of your face very soon, the noose is getting tighter and tighter around the necks of african people as our leaders continue to sell off our natural resources to the international financial institutions and multinationals all in the name of "debt relief", this is happening even in our own country nigeria as we speak but you are too blind to see or understand it.

You must be assuming that I am scared of or have not considered somesort of bloody revolution in Africa as a result of this "noose" you allude to. Hmmm a possibilty but non the less a less likelyl reality. We can debate that.

Again this is African History 101 as far as I am concerned. I do not need a "reporter" to clue me .  A true critical thinker would highlight all the cause and effects and in addition address them. You have made clear that you are waiting for that revolution against an invading elitist class and will only reason within those confines now run Tell it to those people kiddies who run around clueless about African politics lets see if this will occur in your life time.

@cap28

I conceed I am a brainwahsed puppet by the imperalist leaning of the western economic standards. I am simply regurgitating every single thing I have learnt form them. i can't apply simple analyssi to a sitution when presentedn.

I now realize the West is evil and we need to wipe them out from the face of this earth and create a new revolution of black  African empowerment and free our people from these imperialists


Long live the struggle. Long live Africa. We shall be FREE some day as soon as we figure out how to get these cockoraoches of our backs. They have stolen from our continent, destoryed our way of life, imposed their western cultures on us, persuaded us to degrade our cultures for the adoptino of theirs, destroyed our climate, turned us against each other by dangling carrots infront of us and emphasized our differnces

Controlled our economics by pouring aid and loans into our governments, used mind controlling systems on our leaders, their ultimate goal is to see us wipe each other out while they ferry away all our resources for their survival.

Count me in Cap28. When the revolution starts I will be ready to join you.

STUPIDITY, CONSPIRACY THEROIESTS AND PROPANGAist HAVE MENTAL DISORDERS.  Where are your facts. Please keep your rederick to illiterate fools who might be mesmerized by your ability to retain  irrelevant information. To insinuate that taking a side in an arguement is fosterd by western media propaganda is an insult on my inteligence and I awill not indulge in sentimental b.u.l.l.Poo. Good luck on your hollow stance

cap28:
Okay fine, can you please provide me with your own tangible suggestions and resolutions to resolving this crisis.

can you also tell me how and why Ouattara is a better candidate for the job as opposed to Gbagbo? Im really interested in knowing what it is that Ouattara will do differently - thanks

Quattara is more politically and academically qualifed with past government expericence in tryng to tackle the issues that presented and still plague the Ivory coast. During his time in government the concentration was not on the consolidation of power under ethnic lines but on the resolution of economic woes whether you deem that as pupperting or not. The man earned a decent leving pre his appointments as Finace minsiter and Prime minister of the country only to be by past based on ethnic grievances.

Is Okonjo Iweala a colonialist puppet simply because she has ties to the World bank and the IMF post her appointment into government and has presened suggestion based on hework expericne with them to bring change within Nigeria

Gbagbo's socialist stance is irrelevant in a new era where the state does not need to consolidate the factors of production to facilitate and equal distribution of resources or wealth, build the institutions an the atmosphere condusive to facilitate the process

I do not need to be brainwahsed to use cognitive abilities to critically analyze complex systems that are being practiced round the world in realizing who is better torun a country. The Whie mans is not a consequence of that . The evidence is

cap28:
i think you are very confused! on the one hand you accuse me of not coming up with solutions but in the same breath you say that you are not interested in hearing about what led up to the current economic crisis in Ivory Coast, dismissing it as "history 101" !, tell me how you can resolve a problem without knowing the root causes of that problem?

Its obvious that you are suffering from a very severe case of brainwashing as you have accepted without question the white man's revised version of africa's history. It is acknowledged even by white historians that former colonial govts are solely responsible for the current political and economic turmoil that africa is currently in the grip of. The fact that you are totally ignorant of this basic fact demonstrates to me that i would do better to converse with a brick wall as i would get a much more reasoned response and feedback.

A popular quote states that those who are ignorant of their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes, good luck navigating your way through your self imposed fog of ignorance.

I used to be in the history 101 business a couple of years ago, but came to realize it has nothing to do with critical thinking in terms of presenting tangible suggestons and providing resolutions  to solving the underlying problems prevalent in African natiaons. A

ElRazur:
Cap28 I do understand your point, I just feel you presented your personal opinion as facts. I haven't doubted what you posted etc.

Exactly my point. All this history lessons by cap28 don't really do anyting for me. Is Africa the only continent that had colonial masters. How did the others seem to figure out their issues. Please

Stop blaming the colonialist and start pointing the finger at the people who are in positions of responsibility

cap28:
for someone who has it all figured out you seem staggeringly ignorant of the damage that a french imperailst puppet poses to the well being of the Ivory Coast economy and its people.

So voting in a french imperialist puppet is the best solution to the current crisis in Ivory Coast?

What damage are you speaking of. Please elaborate. For a historical buff wonder why its seems to have crossed your mind that fact the Ivory coast experienced the most succesful economic years under the rule of someont tied with the french so much so that people from neighbouring coutnries flocked in the Ivory coast and never left till this day compared to the era of a socialist who came into power on the guise of labour unionism and equitable distribution of income who has yet to implement one law that has brought any progress for his people. and please don't give me that he ahsn't has time and the french are squeezing his hands. We live in an era of acess to  information like no other time and are able to leverage this to create sustainalbe progression in each of our soceities by partnering with numerous countries in the world.

cap28:
I do not recall at any point during this discussion where you have come up with any thing closely resembling a strategy let alone a resolution - perhaps you would do well to remove the giant log in your eyes before you point out the speck in someone else's!

I have youjust haven't been paying attention. Remove the ivorite tribalist socialist and put in the economist who was dielined bcuase of his ethnic background despite his proven ability to work within the governmetn and produce economic results

cap28:
the thing about western intervention is that it is only deemed necessary when the head of state in question deviates from the agreed instructions and plans given to them by the west.

The west could not care less if the head of state in question is a brutal dictator or whether he is a democratically elected man of the people - the bottom line is - is he doing what we want him to do ie is he implementing neo liberal economic policies which favour our multinational corporations, assist in the massive transfer of wealth into our own internantional financial institutions whilst simultaneously impoverishing his own country and its people.

Notice how the west only started having problems with mugabe when he started accelerating the land reform programmes in which large tranches of white owned (stolen) farm land were being returned to the indigenous zimbabweans.

Gaddaffi transformed Libya from an impoverished barren wasteland into a modernised nation - this was all done with Libya's oil reserves, as a result he is very popular with his people and it would be almost impossible to depose a man who has brought so much prosperity for his people, free education up to university level, subsidised housing among other social services are some of the things Gadaffi has been able to provide to his people in his 41 year tenure.

biya is a french backed puppet who has handed over the economy of his country to the french to be milked dry in return he has been allowed to remain in power as a life president.

i agree with the question you asked ie why hasnt the west intervened in nigeria in numerious instances where elections have been rigged, June 12 1993 comes to mind, why didnt the west intervene and back Abiola in the same way that they are backing Ouattara, could it be because Abiola might have opposed and even refused to comply with the destructive neo liberal economic policies that IBB had slavishly implemented.
this now make me conclude that IBB was not acting alone when he annulled June 12.

Nigeria should understand that they will be making a very big mistake if they send troops to Ivory coast - this crisis is not Nigeria's problem, it is France's problem, they are the imperialist vultures who are seeking to steal the resources of Ivory Coast in collusion with their puppets but they want african troops to do their dirty work for them, if they want to protect their investments let them use UN troops, france's actions in Ivory Coast are an insult to all africans.

History leson101. Tell us somethng we already can't figure out. Like what best to do to resolve the conflict instead of projecig your innate hatred for former colonail masters. Thats obviousl not going to solve the prolbem.


Nigerians all talk no strategy

Remind me not live in a country full of emotional retards.